The Monaco Grand Prix ended in some confusion as Michael Schumacher decided to ignore the rules and overtook Fernando Alonso at the last corner, despite the fact that the race did not restart until the cars crossed the finish line and took the chequered flag. The rules (Article 40.13 of the FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations) state that if the race ends while the Safety Car is deployed, it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap “and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking”.
This is fairly clear, which means that Schumacher should be penalised for his manoeuvre. As this happened at the end of the race, this should be a time penalty. Logically-speaking therefore he should drop down to the order behind the cars who finished on the same lap. That would put him back to 12th place and lose the points he would have scored.
It is worth noting that according to the timing system Fernando Alonso crossed the line at the end of the first Safety Car ahead of Karun Chandhok. Race Control either missed this, or chose to ignore it. There is a complex series of rules regarding two different lines on the road relating to the Safety Car. Alonso may have got away with this as a result of these rules.
In a normal “SC in” situation overtaking is allowed from the SC line before the SF line, so Alonso’s move was okay.
It’s a incredibly dumb rule, but it’s allowed.
But *was* the SC still deployed? There were green flags and the SC phase was ended by the message “SC in this lap” from Race Control.
I don’t think it is clear. The safety car pulled in before the end of the race.
40.7 All competing cars must then reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the first time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU. With the following exceptions, overtaking is forbidden until the cars reach the first safety car line after the safety car has returned to the pits. Overtaking will only be permitted under the following circumstances :
- when the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has crossed the first safety car line ;
no penalty for schummacher, i am sorry for you, it is the new rules
Not on the last lap. There is a different rule 40.13
I am sorry Joe but you are wrong. The race did not end under the safety car, 40.13 clearly stipulates what happens IF the race ends under the SC. Namely … SC pulls in to the pitlane and photogs get good shots of the Checkered flag/cars with no SC in there. Under that cars are NOT allowed to race, there is a full course yellow in effect.
What happened in Monaco was that on the penultimate lap we got the SC in message. Meaning the race would NOT end under the SC car. Indeed when the SC pulled into the pitlane everybody got greenflagged (even the lights turned green). Effectively the race had resumed … for 2 corners.
Schumacher didn’t violate the rules. They were racing from the moment they passed the SC line at Rascasse.
Green flags out. That means racing. If deemed illegal should give him” Hamilton warning”. Stewards fault for putting green flags out.
You don’t like Michael much do you…….
I think the question is did the safety car come in due to it been the end of the race or did it come in because the incident had been cleaned up. IMO it was because the incident had been cleaned up so the results should stand.
The rule regarding from what point on the race is open again has been changed and it is not the finish line but the virtual line of the pit lane start or so now. That’s why Alonsos overtake of Chandhok is not punishable or even something to investigate
The Schumacher thing depends on the difference between whether the Saftey Car was still deployed or not. It’ll be interesting to see how the stewards will rule…
The teams were notified that the Safety Car was coming in on the final lap, the race did not end under the Safety Car – meaning that it was legitimate for an overtaking move to take place between the chequered flag and the piece of track before the final corner on which the Safety Car line was painted.
Furthermore, footage of the incident does suggest, with Alonso sidewards as he tried to stop Schumacher, that while Ferrari may have been aware of Article 40.13 in the race’s aftermath, their Spanish driver was not aware of it at the time of Schumi’s move.
bladiebla
Let us see what the Stewards decide. It is daft to argue until decisions are made.
That was a disappointingly sour-sounding post, Joe, on an otherwise commendable website.
There does seem genuine confusion over the move, both by the participants and by the TV and radio reporters present, including many experienced ex-racers, team bosses and current commentators.
Your post didn’t reflect the genuine confusion – it just seemed bitter.
I am a Lewis fan so am largely indifferent as to whether Alonso or Schumacher are favoured by the stewards’ findings.
It is not sour-sounding at all. It is simply reading the rules and explaining them as they should be interpreted.
Oh and I don’t think michael decided to ignore the rules but decide to race when the lights went green. Uou are making out he deliberately tried to cheat. Btw. Well done to mark webber on such a dominant win. Pity you didn’t put that story in your blog first
“It is daft to argue until decisions are made.” Which is what you just did
– No matter if Schumacher gets punished for it or not (interestingly one of his last punishments was due to an incident at the selfsame place) it was the most entertaining moment of the whole race. I don’t personally like Schumacher a lot but that move he did deserves a round of applause.
Joe, you are the one jumping to conclusions by saying Schumacher ignored the rules. Let’s see.
I hope you will publish a retraction when/if you are proved wrong.
Well, I suggest you all go and start your own blogs. I am simply trying to help. I am not interested in being attacked for doing that. This is how I read the rules. Maybe the stewards will read them differently.
Commenting on this blog stops forthwith. It is not worth the effort.
Oh, come on… please! He hardly “decided” to ignore the (clearly very ambiguous) rules. At worst, it was a very opportunistic move, attempting to exploit what looks like a very grey area. Classic Schumacher/Brawn. For a lot of fans, it was probably the highlight of the race.
here was green everywhere because the track was clear and fine to race. The race did not end under yellow. If the track was still dangerous then it would have remained yellow and there would have been no overtaking.
here’s Ross Brawn’s explanation, pretty clear I think
Alonso is such a good racer, how did Michael got past him in the first place?
Joe – although I’m unimpressed at the lack of respect commentors sometimes show, given all the work you put in, it would be sad to stop the comments because of this. I follow your blog because of your informed, intelligent take on things, and because most of the comment is so much more interesting and thoughtful than the “Alonso is sh*te”, “No, Hamilton is cr*p” rubbish that one sees on most other sites. Although there’s been some disagreement over this is issue, your blog still remains the least-affected by moronic comment that I know of.
What a crock . .
Regulations say . . .
Article 40.13 of the Formula 1 sporting regulation states: “If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.”
I interpret this as follows . . . if the Safety car is on track at the end of the last lap (i.e. finishing line) then the cars will follow it round for the rest of the lap, the Safety car will then pit and the cars will [B]NOT[/B] overtake and will take the chequered flag. This means that the cars take the chequered flag one lap after the official end of the race.
Today the Safety car was not on track at the end of the race. Simple decision, wrong one taken.
Time for some of you to issue Joe an unconditional apology.
I see that mercedes are going to appeal !
surely this is a no brainer
on the lap the safety car goes in you can overtake from the safety car line onwards [ no offence by alonso if that is what he did
EXCEPT that on the last lap there is no overtaking [ hence penalty for schumacher
if I remember correctly lap 78 is th last lap , and the safety car was deployed
in other words , exactly as joe says !
I will apologise to Joe if Joe undertakes to admit he was wrong if Mercedes wins the appeal.
I think the point here is that this is not a clear-cut issue – which I think is precisely what everyone wanted to point out.
Joe said Schumacher had “decided” to consciously break the rules, and I think at the very least that that view is controversial and potentially very unfair.
Fadanada,
Mercedes withdrew the appeal. They cannot therefore win it.
“40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal’s posts will display waved yellow flags and “SC” boards for the duration of the intervention.”
“40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message “SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP” will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car’s orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.”
There were green lights so deployment was ended before end of race so 40.13 does not apply
Joe,
Keep the good work.
your opinion is the one with value.
the rest are just shumi fans that obviously like to cheat.
I wish we could get a transcript of the stewards deliberations!! I think they are wrong because green flag conditions had been declared (very different to other times when the race has ended under SC conditions).
The purpose of the new rule about the line was to allow a racing finish where it was safe to do so – (you could even do so if the incident is not clear, but it is safe between the line and the finish)
Was having a former driver valuable? What was his take? Was he listened to or is the arrangement just a sham to give weight to stewards decisions?
Is Damon allowed to comment now?
I hope this goes to appeal, for the sake of clarity, but fear that Mercedes will bite the bullet and drop it.
As to the penalty I think that is wrong too. This was different to some of the obviously dirty moves of the past, this si a misunderstanding – actually a disagreement, about how the rules apply and the worst penalty should have been to reverse the positions, not hammer him with 20 seconds.
Hmmm I have to agree on both sides of the fence here. The intention of the rules are clear, if the SC is deployed on the last lap it will enter the pitlane and the cars will continue to the finish line, no overtaking.
However…..
The communications from the FIA “SC in this lap” and the green lights totally contradict the stated rules.
Has to be said though, once again Ross Brawn tries to push the envelope when it comes to interpretation of the rulebook.
He has made a very good argument.
Good reporting JS you know sometimes I don’t agree with you. It is what it is, as DC would say.
What a shame your blog has decended to this. Don’t take it personally Joe.
I wonder how many people would supporting Schumi’s move hadn’t seen Ross’s PR piece to camera?
Ross certainly hasn’t lost his edge
“Commenting on this blog stops forthwith. It is not worth the effort.”
“Time for some of you to issue Joe an unconditional apology.”
I hardly think the second is necessary given the generally restrained posts and absence of personal attacks. I’m sorry for the first but do feel it’s an overreaction on Saward’s part.
Elena,
You did not read the comments that upset me!
Apologies to you Joe, if they are needed which I hope not. This will become a major issue and be the talking point at least until Turkey. There will be a lot of heat under collars.
I thought Ross summed it up nicely but can anyone explain why did the track go green again? Is this race control cocking up procedurally?
Joe, I think you should continue to comment and speak your mind! No-one is forced to agree, but I’m sure the vast majority of readers apprechiate your honest views.
Personally, I thought the end of the race was a bit of a farce – mixed signals at best. The rule definatly shows that the race was effectivly neutralised from the start of the last lap. However – it was handled in a way that said otherwise. The Safety Car In This Lap call and especially the green flags were very contradictory.
I suspect Alonso got sideways not because he knew the race was still on. Instead I think he assumed it was all over, just to come round Rascasse and see green flags and thought ‘oh cr*p I need to get a move on’. Seems to have been the new ‘overtaking from the first safety car line’ rule was written in without the implecations through the book being fully considered. Or it was a simple cock-up. Either way, the green flags should not have been shown. Green means go! If it doesn’t it should and it should be changed.
One other point . . .
“. . . . Safety Car is deployed, it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap”
the SC didn’t make it to the end of the last lap, it entered the pit lane before the end of the last lap.
I think this regulation is badly written, it’s hard to know with any degree of certainty what it means . . .
What I want to know is why Barrichello hasn’t been penalized for throwing his steering wheel into the racing line in a very dangerously careless moment of frustration. Chandok scooped it up as he went past, and who knows where it ended up (ebay?), but surely the rules state that the wheel must be re-fitted to the car, and surely a driver should know better than to chuck a big component onto the track. Barrichello already has had one incident involving a part of his car bouncing down the track, he should definitely know better.
The lack of thought and general lack of basic manners in this comments section is lamentable. Joe called this right from the very start. The rule is in plain English!
The safety car came in at the end of the last lap as stated in rule 40.13. There is no ambiguity here at all. Schumacher, Brawn & Mercedes either knew the rules and decided to break them or they didn’t know the rules which is negligent on their part.
The punishment was fitting.
It’s a problem of interpretation here. (Which is why the arguments are so juicy and passionate!)
Joe’s absolutely correct in his interpretation of the 40.13 rule, at least according to my interpretation of it. However, the marshals and race control – assuming said rules were to apply – should never have issued green flags and lights.
So, did it end on a safety car or not? The procedure was perfectly followed for that answer to be ‘yes’, except someone gave the racers the green light. 90% of all problems really are created by communication balls-ups, it seems.
But seriously, if F1 race control is encouraging 13 bunched-up cars to race for just 200-ish meters around a chicane the width of a single car as a last-gasp-gimmick, then I fear for this sport’s sanity now more than ever before. That would be dangerous and pointless, and utterly out of kilter for a veteran like Charlie Whiting. I think the subsequent penalty shows that was not the intention, even if it could have been construed as such at the time.
I can’t help thinking that the marshals and co had become so adept at the more standard safety car restart procedure during the course of the race that they sort of went into auto-pilot under pressure!
Someone surely messed up, that much seems clear.
agreed, sensible blog. Blog operator entitled to have his own opinion. Personally think it was the best move of the race and the only person on track to pull it off was Schuey. Has Damon Hill forgiven? I don’t think so. I hope Mercedes get their appeal upheld but well done to Alonso who otherwise did very well.
Shame, I respectful disagree with you, and agree with Ross Brawn. Seems the fair an unbiased decision.
However, I would like to say. Although I disagree with you at times, I totally respect your effort to create a great blog, you’re opinionated, and this is your profession.
I hope you go from strength to strength. Ignore the idiots, the web is full of cowards, that part of running a public opinion blog.
@Simon G
It was not so in Australia last year, there the safety car went in on the last lap with the yellows still out because the track was not clear.
This time the track was clear but the safety car was out on the last lap, so rule 40.13 still was in place. At the end of that lap the safety car pull off the track and allow the race to finish, but overtaking is prohibited.
@Joe I agree totally with your interpretation. But still it is an interpretation. Apparently Ross Brawn interprets the rules differently.
Ironically the issue here has little to do with Schumacher and more to do with the rules and their interpretations. I am no fan of Schumacher, but I can see what he tried to do here and in a way it was very clever. Yet again F1 implements a rule which is ambiguous and asinine, probably just to add some controversy so we keep talking about the race long after it finishes.
I do wish the FIA would do things in a simpler way – why bother bringing the safety car in like they did and cause all of this confusion when they could just have finished it under a yellow flag? If they forbid overtaking, it’s crazy to drop a green flag like that.
Having read through some of the ‘opinions’ before posting, I am disgusted at some of the comments here too. We are all entitled to our opinions here, but I think some people should take a look at what they say and ask themselves if they would say that sort of thing in person. Remember Joe is running this blog for our benefit and enjoyment – and one of the main motivations to blog is to see that people enjoy and value what you post. So those of you who choose to attack him may push Joe into stopping posting – and therefore ruining it for the rest of us.
The sort of comments I have seen here belong on non-personal F1 forums and not blogs. This should be a place for constructive discussion, not flame wars.
I agree with Peter F completely Joe, please continue to allow comments on the blog, as a healthy debate is all part of the fun of following F1.
I really enjoy reading this blog and I feel it would be diminished without contributions from readers.
However, I think all of us commenting here should remember to be respectful at all times, to each other and especially to Joe who, let’s not forget, doesn’t charge for this content.
Just because you don’t agree with someone, doesn’t mean you need to start insulting them – just counter their points with a good arguments of your own!
It never ceases to amaze me unbelievably sensitive schumacher fans are. Say one thing against him and you get a plethora of hate mail back claiming the you only say those things because your a hater? How does that work? I can’t see anything that joe said that was out of line, some of the comments however definitely are…
I do also agree that you should issue Joe apologies! Even if Joe was found to be wrong over this specific matter, apologies were in order! He does give us great insides and is one of the best blogs in the web. And I find it pretty much unbiased. Not that a blog needs to be unbiased. It is a personal opinion journal and not a newspaper. Those who find themselves offended by it should go somewhere else.
By the way, thanks Joe for your amazing posts and your great help! And please don’t close the commentaries since a few of them still give interesting perspectives.
Steve,
I second the motion !!
Guys: You have the right to disagree with Joe, But this is His Blog.where HE is putting HIS views..
You should show a little more respect when exposing your own views.
It’s like being invited in a house and start criticizing the guest because you don’t like the way the house is decorated !!
welcome to the blogosphere Joe – it’s full of armchair commentators
fwiw, i think you should leave comments open as the discussion is always good. as best you can, you just have to ignore the personal attacks. comes with territory
keep up the great work!
Steve
The herd isn’t always right (metaphorical aside to Joe–don’t worry about the idiots, keep up the good work), but in addition to 40.13, it seems telling that Schumi was the only guy who tried to pass. If the situation, as he claims, was that ambiguous, more drivers than him would have tried to jump spots.
Sounds to me the entity that is wrong in all of this is the FIA…if they simply would have left the Safety Car out to the checkered flags, and/or left the Yellow flags out, we wouldn’t be having this discussion!
Speaking of biase (;-0), I have to admit that (sneaking the occasional peak at the live timings whilst at work) for the first time in my life I was cheering on Schumacher to make that move! Who would have thought it. Oh dear.
Anyway most comments sections in blogs are for the benefit of know-it-all surfers spouting off with instantly disposable nonsense for their own benefit. I know I’ve tried it! I suppose the perfect solution would be to moderate it but that would take up precious time……..
Anyway thanks for another illuminating GP+. The real answer is to save all of the interesting stuff for the “pay” section and to hell with everything else!
hmmmm…..what a bizarre set of rules? The FIA have changed a set of rules that were simple, not exploitable and most importantly has worked since the introduction of safety cars in 93.
And all for apparently no purposeful reason (although if there is im sure you Joe will explain it)
Schumacher has been penalized for rule 40.13 has you mentioned. If i recall correctly, according to the BBc forum show, even this is worded so The Merc team thought they may be able to exploit it and get round it. Obviously not
Also you explain the Chandahok thingy, that doesn’t seem to make sense has his retirement was a factor for the safety car coming out, Or are you talking about a different ‘Caution Period’?
Qutoing myself, on May 17, 2010 at 17:06
‘Schumacher has been penalized for rule 40.13 has you mentioned. If i recall correctly, according to the BBc forum show, even this is worded so The Merc team thought they may be able to exploit it and get round it.’
correction: the confusion caused by the FIA stewards to declare the safety car was coming in. Rather then just letting procedure take place of the Safety Car coming in on the final Lap.
Imnfact i somehow managed to miss out on the point i said that in the first place which was.
Surely the whole problem has aroused because the FIA write some rules that are ‘open to interpretation’ and then expect everybody to guess the FIAs interpretation of it. surely somewhere the FIA should of stated weather there will still be a ‘Safety Car in this lap’ message and also if the Last Lap procedure when safety car is out still applies.
I rarely post on forums because frankly, the level of discourse is often uninformed.
The rule, 40.13 is pretty clear if you THINK. If you don’t think it can appear ambiguous. The fault lies in the start of the rule, namely “If the race ends while the safety car is deployed”. This should say something like “If the race would end while” or “If the last lap starts while”. Then it is pretty clear that the rule is intended to make an exception for the last lap so photographers can get shots of the cars without the safety car.
If you disagree with this interpretation, then you need to explain how the rule could ever apply. If the race did end under the safety car, i.e., the safety car took the chequered flag, then it would be impossible for the safety car to enter the pits at the end of the last lap. So the rule could NEVER be invoked under any circumstances.
So my suggestion would be, before calling Joe names, read the rules and THINK about them first. I. for one, appreciate Joe’s comments and would hate if a few people stopped him blogging.
Joe,
Agreed…shut down the commenting. Everyone can go complain on the pseudo-news sites and forums. I hope that you will not let these comments dampen your enthusiasm for providing us with an inside look at the sport we love, that we would otherwise not have. Personally, I don’t bother reading the comments anyway (I only saw them after you mentioned their rudeness). I don’t care what someone sitting at their computer hundreds or thousands of miles from the paddock thinks. So thanks, and keep up the good work. BTW, I don’t reckon you’ll get any apologies after being proven right, but apologies are deserved.
Joe firstly i wish to say you are absoloutly correct with comments regarding rules,they are there for a reason despite certain comments made,and it has to be seen that former WDC,s and teams do not try and or attempt to manipulate,MS i believe just followed team orders and who could blame him.
Sadly we have supporters who are not only blinkered but lack any view that the penalty given was justified.
Its over MS and Mercedes tried and failed.
Keep the blog going and don,t be put off by the die hards.
I completely agree with you Steve, and would not blame Joe in the slightest if he were to withdraw the facility for people to leave Replies to the articles he has written. I have done so on my own website.
I think Ross Brawn is an arrogant so-and-so but I agree entirely with his assessment of the situation.
I’ve read hundreds of comments on other sites along the lines of, “Can’t stand Schumacher, but this time he did nothing wrong.” And polls that show that the vast majority of fans agree with this.
@Joe, I’ve read all the comments before mine and although I see some vehement disagreement to your take on it, I see nothing that could be called abuse. You just happen to be in the minority. Stopping people commenting on your site would vastly reduce the quality of it.
@Steve, the stewards may have ruled one way but they are hardly infallible – and all of us have the same access they do to the rules and regulations. I don’t see the need for any apologies.
obviously this blog is opinion so people based on an interpretation of the rules which some of us do not know off by heart. as it would appear that the circumstances are not as clear as they might be, others can posts comments showing alternative thoughts in a constructive manner. just because you disagree doesn’t mean you lash out with personal attacks, in fact it makes others cloud their judgement about what you are saying. clear, concise statements have so much more impact.
well done joe, as usual.
No great surprise the appeal was withdrawn, when whatever the outcome, the penalty would still stand.
I hope the FIA move to clarify this rule though. In my opinion Schumacher broke the spirit of the rule, but was within the letter of the rule.
The screens said the safety car was coming in and the track went green before the end of the race – surely therefore the arguement about the race finishing under safety car conditions is null and void.
What should happen in future is SCD should remain in place on the timing screens, lights stay lit on the safety car as it peels into the pits at the end of the last lap, yellow flags are continued to be waved as the cars go over the finish line in formation.
I suspect that when the rule was written, it was expected the yellow flags would remain displayed.
The SC procedure for it entering pit lane was correct, all of it followed the rules and procedures up to that point.
The mistake made, from what i can see, lies with whomever decided to let the green flags wave. If it had been left with yellows there would have been no confusion. I expect the rule to be updated stating that and probably also reworded to be SC deployed at the start of the final lap or similar to remove any chance of someone arguing otherwise. I call it the Ross Brawn Amendment
Joe, on a related topic, do you know where the first safety car line will be at Monza? Just thinking that with the finish line and pit entry where they are, that could leave a long lead time where cars can overtake the SC while it is still on the track.