Red Bull Racing has issued a statement with team principal Christian Horner talking (in a carefully-worded way) about the Webber-Vettel incident in Turkey:
“We had a unique situation during the Turkish GP where the first four cars were separated by two
seconds, with Mark (Webber) having led every lap until lap 40. The race was the fastest of the season to date with all four drivers pushing each other extremely hard. On lap 38, Mark changed his mixture setting based on his fuel consumption to a slightly leaner mode, which had an average lap time loss of about 0.18 seconds, whilst maintaining the same revs. Sebastian had conserved more fuel than Mark during the race and therefore was able to run in a slightly better mode for an additional couple of laps. On lap 38 and 39, Sebastian’s pace picked up and he closed right up to the back of Mark while under considerable pressure from Hamilton behind. After a very strong run through Turn 9, Sebastian got a run and strong tow and moved to the left to pass Mark. Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right. As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one two finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room.”
Analysis: Hamilton being right with them was not new. He had been there for 40 laps. This was not, therefore, added pressure for the team. Horner does not explain why Webber turned down his engine. Was he told to do do? There is no reason why Webber should have given Vettel more room to pass. He gave him enough. Vettel messed up the move. The question that might have been more interesting is: Was the lap on which the incident occurred the last one available to Vettel for such a move? That might explain the apparent desperation.
“What we expect from our drivers, as team mates, is that they show respect for each other and allow one another enough room on the race track. Unfortunately neither driver did this on Sunday and the net result was an incident between the two. During the previous six one-two finishes we have achieved, there have been many incidences of close racing between our drivers and they have previously always abided by this understanding.”
Analysis: This ignores the fact that Webber respected Vettel by not closing the door on him.
Regarding Vettel’s figure gestures suggesting that Webber was mad: “The adrenaline was flowing and obviously there’s a great deal of frustration when you’ve just crashed out of a race. It will be discussed and I am certain that the air will be cleared before Canada.”
Analysis: Vettel will need to apologise.
“Ultimately we win as a team and we lose as a team and on Sunday we lost as a team, as a result of our two drivers having an incident. Having looked at all the information it’s clear that it was a racing accident that shouldn’t have happened between two team-mates. After looking at all the facts that weren’t available immediately after the race, Dr. Marko also fully shares this view.”
Analysis: Dr Marko should not have said things after the race.
“Our priority as a team is to finish first and second, irrelevant of the order. The Turkish GP was the
closest race of probably the last twelve months with significant pressure coming from both of the
McLarens. Sebastian’s pace improved from lap 37 onwards and he appeared to be the faster of the two Red Bull drivers. Had the incident not have happened, I believe we would have achieved a one-two finish and a maximum score for the second race in succession.”
Analysis: The pressure at that point was no different to the previous 40 laps. The drivers do not share the team’s priority. Their priority is to be World Champion and it is naive to think that any F1 driver worth his salt would back off and let his team-mate through until the situation is hopeless. Clearly that was not the case for Webber.
“With the pace of the McLarens and with it looking like Sebastian was the quicker of the two Red Bull cars, the priority was to win the race. With intense pressure from Hamilton behind, who was in a McLaren that had a significant straight line speed advantage, it would have been impossible to back Sebastian off. Therefore it was acceptable to us for him to attempt an overtaking manoeuvre.”
Analysis: Could Vettel really have gone on longer with a richer fuel mix? And was Hamilton any bigger a threat than he had been all afternoon?
“Neither driver was given any instruction to change position. There are no team orders within Red Bull Racing, other than that the drivers should race each other with respect.”
Analysis: The drivers were given instructions of another kind, otherwise that would not need to be said in such a carefully-worded way. One wonders what instructions were given.
“We’re a very strong team and we will sit down and discuss this openly with the drivers in order to
learn from what has happened and avoid a situation like this arising again. One of the strengths of
Red Bull Racing is the team spirit here, which has contributed to the performance that we have achieved so far this season. The drivers are both intelligent individuals and this issue will be resolved prior to the Canadian Grand Prix.”
Analysis: Perhaps it would have been better to do this after the race in Turkey. Unfortunately Vettel had left the track in Istanbul before the debriefing.
“I have spoken with both drivers, who are both disappointed with what happened. They recognise that they represent the team and so are not only disappointed for their own loss, but the loss of points for the team who put in so much hard work before the race.”
Analysis: The team does not always come first. The drivers are ultimately out for themselves.
“Both drivers, as has always been the case, will continue to be given equal treatment. The Turkish
Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won’t happen again.”
Analysis: Good.
“Dietrich (Mateschitz) has spoken with both drivers following the incident. He has always supported both drivers equally and summed it up by saying, ”Shit happens… we shouldn’t talk about the past, but concentrate on the future. The fact is that we not only have the fastest car, but also two of the best and fastest drivers”.
Analysis: Looking at the past is not such a bad idea. Those who ignore the past are condemned to make the same mistakes again.
joeblogsf1 
Analysis: Horner still full of crap and a twat.
I’m already looking forward to your next appearance in the transcript of an FIA press conference!
Joe (and fellow commenters): I wonder if our support for Webber is just an Anglophone thing (UK, Oz, US, Canada)? Is the German press siding with Vettel?
Joe your analysis is spot on. but i think this is just window dressing..as i ve said in a previous post this is the making of one .. Helmut Marko…to put it quite bluntly..hes not getting his way…
The whole incident certainly brings an interesting and new dimension to the title race.
As Webber said, both he and Vettel will probably have differing opinions on the incident until the grave, and I doubt a bollocking from management will undo the frustration.
Their next meeting on-track will be fascinating.
Very political. It still doesn’t address the fact that Webber will feel hard done by because he’s the person that did nothing wrong – everything else could have been fixed by Vettel not running up the inside when there wasn’t enough room.
Nice one Joe ..
If – their top priority was a 1-2 finish irrespective of order
– Vettel was picking up speed relative to Webber
Then – wouldn’t it make sense to have Vettel play rear gunner since it would be harder for Hamilton to pass. If Webber was 2nd surely he’d be a sitting duck and they would’ve ended up with a 1-3, or 1-4. That is unless of course they have other motives in mind …..
This analysis fails on the significant point of ignoring that the quotes were responses to specific questions. The context of some is very different without the question and in some cases misleading.
Motorsport Journalism at it’s finest.
Exemplary coverage once again Joe.
D Hon
You’re asking the right questions!
Bottom line for me is – time will tell. I think Webber and Vettel are doing the right thing and being rather quiet about the whole thing. It’s ultimately not their fault which is funny because the team isn’t saying it was the team’s fault they’re going on about wining and losing together.
Maybe a simple:
“We F-ed up, we’re sorry to Mark and Seb, we’ll learn from our mistake and we’ll come back even stronger:
could you change the Analysis part to a different font/color of highlight to make it easier.
And just where is Vettel in all this? Crouching under Dietrich’s desk? This event has gone on far too deep for me to honestly believe that both drivers are equals. Let’s see them sign Webber for another year or two and then I MAY feel better about this .. but Vettel needs a bitch slap before this is all said and done. Again .. where is Vettel?
Great analysis as usual Joe. Any thoughts on Hamilton-Button or do you think that all the hype surrounding that is nothing in comparison to the red bull story? Would have been a very different story in Woking if lewis hadn’t repassed jenson. Toys, pram….!!!!!!
Re. “One wonders what instructions were given.”
The cynic in me says that Webber was told to switch to fuel conservation mode, so that Vettel would be quicker. Webber would then hopefully let him pass with much of a fight, thinking that he needed to conserve fuel. Maybe certain factions (i.e. Helmut Marko…) within the team were getting frustrated by Webber beating Vettel again, and thought they should give him a helping hand.
A few things come to mind:
Looking at the detailed gaps Wbber > Vettel; Vettel > Hamilton, there does not seem to be any significant change and certainly not a TREND (such as Hamilton or Vettel continually closing) over the couple of laps prior to the accident. Therefore, I am not convinced of the “Hamilton was a massive danger” argument.
Everyone seems to acknowledge that running behind in a race such as this, it is possible to save a small amount of fuel relative to the guy in front, as you can slipstream a bit. Assuming this was able to be predicted and the knowledge was there during the race (which MUST be the case) what Red Bull seem to be saying is that Webber was paying a price for doing everything right – securing pole, leading the race throughout (other than during the pitstop window) and that Vettel, who had clearly done a LESS good job, should benefit. That’s racing, people might say, and yes, it is. But when it’s your TEAM MATE who is basically allowed to get a jump on you because you have been leading, this seems a dodgy decision, to say the least.
My opinion is that Hamilton felt the same way when, having been asked to further(?) save fuel, his team mate was suddenly all over him and getting past. I imagine he thought “f**k that!”, turned the wick back up enough to retake the lead and then settled back into conservation mode – his message being “look, I’ve done all the hard work, I don’t appreciate being given different instructions to my team mate and losing a place as a result.”
The sentiment for Webber’s “dig deeper” comment…??
I’m happy to see Red Bull in disarray because DR (ain’t he a lawyer?) Helmut Marko is a complete dolt.
I haven’t had a Red Bull drink since his impressively shabby treatment of Luizzi and Scott Speed, and won’t again until he’s gone from the company. That’s too bad because I like the stuff, it helps in distance drives, and I generally support products that support racing.
But not “DR” Marko.
Go Webber.
Analysis: The drivers were given instructions of another kind, otherwise that would not need to be said in such a carefully-worded way. One wonders what instructions were given.
Ahhh you mean like ‘Save fuel’ and ‘Fuel is critical Jenson’ aka DO NOT OVERTAKE LEWIS ! Yes Mr Whitmarsh and McLaren I’m looking at you… 😉
Again Red Bull management have stressed the most important thing was the 1-2 finish while at the same time suggesting that Vettel was almost forced to pass Webber to defend his position from Hamilton.
The two things just do not add up together. If Mark had lost his ultimate top speed due to turning the engine down he would be at far more risk of being passed by Hamilton with his F-Duct advantage. If the 1-2 was most important then having the quicker in a straight line Seb defend Mark’s back would be a far more effective way of achieving that goal.
Looks to me like the win was most important and they wanted Seb out of the way of Hamilton and up the road a few seconds rather than Lewis passing him, and then more easily getting past Mark leaving RBR in 2-3.
Whatever the intention – which of course we will never know – they made a mess of it, and an even bigger mess of the PR spin after the race.
Webber is now the big winner out of this debacle. Not only did he earn 15 more points than Vettel, he won over the fans and media that he’s a wise and feisty racer doing what he’s suppose to do. He handled himself with class right after the race, and also with his statements today how his team and both drivers need to learn and move on from this. Meanwhile Vettel’s stock fell off a cliff by his public immaturity. It also reinforce the belief that he’s not at all great at overtaking.
F1 fans are also big winners who were treated a true “race” and its drama. How thankful we should be that finally “F1 controversies” arose from pure on-track action rather than stirred up by Max Mosley and the like. Long live F1!
Thanks for this Joe.
Granted, Vettel made the stupid move. But as a (former?) Vettel fan I’m still not convinced Webber was right (from a team’s point of view) to risk everything by keeping Vettel so close to the edge on the dirty side while being half a car’s length behind, which in my eyes from there on makes him the attacking party going into the next corner and not the defending one anymore.
It’ll be interesting whether people’s opinions on this will change if RBR manages to lose both titles this year by a small amount of points.
Nevertheless, being in Mark’s position in a team which favours the other driver I’d have probably done the same – let them learn the hard way if they need to.
A fairly weak revision of the story by Red Bull. It still seems very favorable to Vettel and unfavorable to Webber.
Perhaps Seb could use a smack on the wrist and a little humble pie. It might help him gain some sorely needed maturity. Horner’s statement, however, seems to be more coddling of Vettel.
Out of all of this, I am most interested to see how Vettel behaves from this point on. As I mentioned in another post, it has been clear the last several races that Webber has gotten under Vettel’s skin by out-performing him. In the coming races, will Vettel find some maturity? Or, will he continue down the path he’s on now? In my opinion, if he wants to become WDC (this year, or in the future), he better learn some maturity.
My analysis
What a load of Red Bull****.
Webber was 0.18s slower according to Horner. So why was Vettel so much faster then. If that is all the performance Webber lost then Vettel gained some from somewhere.
I can’t remember at any time until the crash thinking there was the slightest chance of Hamilton catching the Red Bulls and I am certain that no-one live commenting the race at sidepodcast mentioned this threat either. Hamilton being there is just a convenient excuse. Presumably if he was a threat to Vettel who had more straightline speed than Webber as a result of his fuel setting he would have been a far greater threat to Webber. Therefore why is Horner not suggesting that Webber was guaranteed to lose the race and would have been lucky to make the podium since Jenson was running right behind Lewis and only Vettel had a chance to win for the team?
If both drivers were at fault (which they quite clearly were not) why did Horner and Marko instantly blame Webber before the race had even finished?
I think Red Bull need to decide if they are a serious racing team where the only thing on the agenda is winning or if they exist for other reasons. If they are a serious racing team they need to have one person clearlyin charge and Marko needs to learn to shut up. I can’t imagine for example Ron Dennis speaking out and compromising Martin Whitmarsh’s position especially before he knew the facts. Helmut Marko’s agenda clearly not that the team has to win above all. He clearly has other things that are more important. Time for Mateschitz to come out of the shadows and sort this out.
Re. Tamerlane
I don’t think the backing of Webber can be seen as ‘Anglophone thing’, as pretty much everyone in the pitlane other than Red Bull think Vettel was at fault.
The gap was there, he could have got passed, but for some reason he moved right and hit Webber. Vettel messed up.
Very interesting. You’re right – Webber did give Vettel just enough room, and there’s no reason why Vettel should expect more. Webber is a racing driver who is leading the championship, and expecting him to leave the door open for his nearest challenger is unreasonable.
I think the only way Red Bull can move on is if Dietrich Mateschitz comes out and talks to the media with Christian Horner, Helmut Marko and both Webber and Vettel at his side. They should just admit mistakes have been made both by Horner and Marko in allocation of blame and favoritism towards Vettel. Vettel should also accept he made a mistake in his overtaking and apologize for blaming Webber. They need to show a united front.
@ Tamerlane: I’m not Anglophone, but it was crystal clear to me that Webber was not to blame here, and RBR’s post-race comments plus now this half-hearted press release leave me with the distinct impression that Webber is the second fiddler here.
Thanks for the translation. I didn’t realise that Mr. Horner was the new purveyor of ‘Ron-talk’.
It is also nice to see that with all the f-ducts, double diffusers and new rear wings, it is still the man in the machine who can make it or break it.
joe
by far and away the best thing/post/analysis that is on the web so far.
Now that a few days have passed, and the controversy is still brewing, I do feel happy that more than ever people are smelling the bullshit from Red Bull management, which just plays into the hands of Webber. Sure, he lost a race win, which every driver craves, but he’s gained huge respect and sympathy from the previously neutral fans and media. He’ll only get more and more support in Canada in 2 weeks with everyone but the Vettel die hards cheering him on to beat the little brat!
This whole episode leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Just like Red Bull, really…
Red Bull management are still telling bald faced lies about this incident. Granted, their lies aren’t quite as extreme as they were, but Horner’s latest revision of events continues to be miles from the truth.
The 1st step in getting out of a damaging PR hole is to STOP DIGGING. Red Bull havn’t yet learned this lesson. They still have their shovels out and continue to pile it on. Red Bull’s continiuing lies are keeping this story alive and making their lives harder.
The solution is so blindingly obvious, one wonders why Detreich hasn’t ordered it. Quite simply, Horner and Marko need to go on video and tell the truth. Say what everyone with a pair of eyes already knows. It was Vettel’s fault, full stop.
The only reason I can fathom for the team to not yet have done this is pig headed arrogance by those in Red Bull’s senior management.
wow…there is going to be some tension from here on in!!! Imagine your teammate doing that to you?? As someone said, Marks not the guyto be asking to come 2nd at 33 years old!!! This year is his crack at emulating AJ, so who the fk is there to tell him to let his less experienced teammate pass him??? If that dont tell you something then I dont know what does!! And after MW has driven 2 perfect races reminiscient of the late Ayrton i dare to add!!? He was magnificent at Monaco and brilliant in Barca……#:)
Short of an out-right apology from Vettel (a very unlikely thing), I don’t think we’ll see the resolution to this until Canada at least. That’ll be where we see if Red Bull continue to give both drivers equal equipment and support, or whether suspicious breakages start happening in Webber car.
Unfortunately, since Webber is ‘the unluckiest man in F1’ (and has been for many years), he could be hit with a series of breakages without any Red Bull foul play, so it might well be in the team’s interest to actually put even more effort into making absolutely sure there’s no suspicion of foul play!
Ah, such are the joys of prognosticating over a sport where we only ever have half the story (well, perhaps 75% when Joe’s on the case) 😉
Tamerlane
No, the German press is not siding with Vettel. They have some pity for him, but even the notoriously Vettel and Schumi loving “Bild” takes a rather neutral position. They are reporting the apparent rift within the team and all the big newspapers are criticising that Red Bull is throwing away their chances through some management errors. Which the “Anglophones” around here would probably take as an admission of guilt. Then again there is certainly no sign of a Webber lovefest going on. He has been mostly overlooked in Germany during most of his career.
Just a thought, but could it be possible to give a slower driver just a little less fuel in qualifyfing for him to have a chance at taking pole, well knowing he will have to slow down at some point in the race, which might not such a disadvantage with overtaking being not easy?
Maybe Vettel was faster, but lost out on qualy because of technical problems, maybe the team wanted him to go past webber to secure victory, fearing Webber was to lose his position because of fuel issues once one of the mcl got past vettel because of the fduct?
Everybody assumes Webbers fuel disadvantage was small, but maybe it was worse than he himself wanted to believe? Yes, maybe Vettel was to pushy, but them maybe Webber did assess his chances of winning accurately, too?
Good site, Joe.
To me this is a black and white case; regardless of fuel mixtures it’s up to the driver doing the overtaking to complete the move without incident. Vettel didn’t and to my mind he’s therefore at fault.
Red Bull’s handling of this has been dire.
did NOT assess his chances of winning accurately, too?
Maybe the team knew Webber never had a chance to win the race with Vettel and Hamilton on his tail, and he was the only one who refused to believe it? This could explain the imminent reaction of the team, with is probably more honest than the rest of the pr stuff we are reading now?
Wettel is a big cry baby and deserves bad karma for poor sportsmanship as do the Red Bull Managers who told Mark to turn his engine down and left Wettel with his up full bore.
This is how the Austrian German speakers send a command to an Aussie to let a German baby an easy pass through without breaking the FiA rule of no team orders to swap places.
Mark drove very smoothly all race I bet he had just as much fuel on board as Wettel.
Mark cannot tell you all this because it would be going again his managers. The FiA should fine RBR for setting this up and then supporting the bad driver who unnecessarily cause an accident and brought the sport into disrepute
Additionally Wettel should be fined by the FiA for making out the Webber is crazy with his childish finger display.
This part of the post race conference transcript has been tellingly deleted by the FiA:
The question to Webber was: if he’d managed to keep an F-ducted McLaren with a speed advantage behind him for 40 laps, how did Vettel, with the same engine, manage to get a run on him?
In the post-race press conference, Webber was cryptic. “You guys are going to have to do a bit of digging…” he said.
Very good post! As many, I follow your blog, and have always found to be quite interesting and always uniquely informative. I have read many good ones, but your analysis of the Horner press release is pretty good! Very amusing!
On a separate note, slightly off-topic (maybe), I have to confess that I have always thought that you (and many others) were not quite keen on Michael, inspite of him being a very good driver. However I started to follow F1 from 2000, so did not see the Hill and Villeneuve collisions, only read about them in later years, so I could never really understand what all the fuss against Michael was.
After seeing the dirty move by Vettel on Mark, I was frustrated and I suppose I can now relate to the anger amongst many F1 fans towards Michael due to his incidents, and I am afraid, Vettel seems to be heading the same way.
Thanks again for your posts!
Lovely analysis Joe. You’ve got’em bang to rights.
What I’m looking forward to seeing some time soon is the same situation but with Junior in front, and Mark has a bit more gas because he’s been tooling around behind all afternoon, and the RB pitwall turns Junior down a bit so Mark can get past.
Anyone want to put money on it ?
Just out of interest didn’t markova loose an eye in a brabham when a flying stone hit him?
No Marko lost an eye while driving for BRM I believe during the French GP of 1972. He was a talented driver but after that incident could not race again. He then began supporting young drivers, although a number of his charges were killed. His biggest success was Gerhard Berger, although they later fell out when managing Red Bull teams because they disagreed on driver choices. Marko is very close to Dietrich Mateschitz – hence his power within the team. Vettel is his boy.
Thanks Joe, once again you get straight to the point.
Sadly Horner fails to impress, and fails to point out the team’s failures, only those of the drivers.
Horner is now almost on the same level as Fry at Merc, and that is as low as any team manager can get, in my opinion.
Where will Webber finish up next year? Well I wouldn’t bet on RB. And as for Helmut Marko, didn’t he get booted out of Jaguar,, before it morphed into RB?
Sad, the so called ‘fun’ team, certainly aren’t anymore
Peter
Someone asked if the German press were siding with Vettel; no they aren’t. They have very much put the blame on Vettel and are asking the same questions as to whether Red Bull favour Vettel.
Great post Joe, very insightful.
I personally think that the move was Vettel’s fault entirely, but not borne out of any motive other than trying to race as well as he possibly can.
Vettel’s had plenty of tussles before, notably with Robert Kubica in Australia 2009 and I strongly believe that if this accident had been Vettel and anyone other than Webber, it would have easily been forgotten by now.
I think it was unlucky that it was teammates colliding and with a bit of luck the two most likeable drivers on the grid will realise that there is no need to make matters difficult for themselves, each other or their team.
The team however, really need to think about being more straightforward with their approach to the media. I think poor Christian Horner just muddled himself up moreso than anything else. He was visibly upset when filmed by BBC and under those kinds of high pressure situations it’s entirely possible that he just couldn’t cope with the facts, figures and hard details. I’m not trying to defend him, just saying, it would be easy for us, as fans, and for the media, to prey on someone in such a vulnerable situation.
I’m a fan of RBR and hope they get through this as strong as they were before the weekend, but this kind of growth only happens with turmoil and it was probably going to happen sooner rather than later anyway…
“The Turkish
Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers”
Analysis: Lesson for Mark, you should have got out the way instead of allowing Seb to run in to you.
I’m not sure what other lessons he could have learned from the situation.
@ : F1 Kitteh
Nice one Joe ..
If – their top priority was a 1-2 finish irrespective of order
– Vettel was picking up speed relative to Webber
Then – wouldn’t it make sense to have Vettel play rear gunner since it would be harder for Hamilton to pass. If Webber was 2nd surely he’d be a sitting duck and they would’ve ended up with a 1-3, or 1-4. That is unless of course they have other motives in mind …..
Exactly, you nailed it! “..-wouldn’t it make sense to have Vettel play rear gunner..”
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Ferrari have Alonso sit behind Massa earlier in the year to protect Massa’s ‘backside’? Even though Alonso was clearly faster!?
Great translation Joe. Tamerlane being Canadian I find your post insulting, does nationality dictate who is right or wrong.
Red Bull is now in damage control mode. Rest assured in the next week the spin doctors at red bull will tell us vettel and webber have kissed and made up and everything is fine and dandy at red bull. The damage is done and irrevocable. From now on all that is going to come out of red bull is more Red Bull S***.
Analysis: Dr Marko put his foot in his mouth because he’s biased towards Vettel. Now he realises he’s in the minority as 1000+ comments on the red bull website saying Webber was right to stay put. Dr ‘Back Peddler’ Marko 🙂
Excellent analysis Joe
The one part I don’t understand from Red Bull’s statements is that if Vettel was likely to be passed by Hamilton (not actually likely really but let’s move on), wouldn’t the allegedly slower Webber be even more likely to be passed by Hamilton? From a 1-2 finish perspective, I would have thought having the faster car behind would enable it to defend better.
It’s Bernie’s fault! Clearly he has instructed RBR to help him spice up the World Championship… It worked.
But seriously folks: thanks, Joe, for yet more interesting and insightful analysis.
I’m a huge Webber fan — have been for years. I’m tremendously excited by his form and results this year. I truly hope that he can become world champion this year. But I fear that this won’t happen. In my heart of hearts (and leaving aside questions of driver maturity), I reckon that Vettel may be just a tad quicker than Webber when all the equipment is working. On that basis, if Webber does become champion, it will be a triumph of brains and maturity over outright speed (as it would be if Button were to beat Hamilton).
What I’d really love to know is whether the alleged fault in Vettel’s Monaco chassis was (i) real and (ii) performance-impacting. Or was the whole story a ruse used by RBR to try to manipulate Vettel’s confidence to come back against Webber (by giving him an excuse for being trounced).
Sorry to come a bit off topic- Felipe Massa is days away from signing a contract extension. Massa will be doing a sponsership function for Shell in Brazil later in the week.
Luca Colianni is apparently flying out to Brazil to net the final signature.
Joe there is one point here that very few including your very knowledgeable self are ignoring .
Roll your tape back to the exit from the prior corner MW exits on normal racing line and heads to the right – on the normal line – then comes back to the left , listen to the commentators ,he,s left the door wide open, at this stage we have SV clear behind with MW on the left of the circuit , we have a still shot to prove that from SV on board camera , SO WHY WOULD SV CHOOSE TO TAKE THE DIRTY NARROW LEFT SIDE OF TRACK WHEN THE CLEAN NORMAL RACING LINE WAS GIFTED TO HIM..
Of all parts of this saga this very poor choice was the ultimate showing of this young drivers lack of maturity , if he had taken the clean line MW could pull straight back in behind to cover Lewis , no harm done , other than a pissed MW at thinly veiled team orders as the gap MW to Hamilton was not closing .. The team reaction from there on i would read to be a mix of W.T.F. and where,s the gun.
However the moment SV choose that line he became lamb to the slaughter , MW had only to hold his line as he did and SV sooner or later would come to the understanding that this isn,t going to work , hence the rapid jink well prior to the braking markers ….
At what point is F.I.A. going to charge SV for causing an avoidable accident , and C.H /DR M for bringing the sport into disrepute
I think you’re right Joe but what interests me about this incident is that both drivers made errors that cost them position.
By moving to the right, Vettel clearly committed a mistake and caused the accident that took him out of the points. Webber was right to hold his line but had Vettel not moved to the right, it would have been a very interesting scenario as neither could have taken that corner and retained their position:
– Webber clearly would have been on the outside going into the corner, and would likely have overshot it.
– Vettel would have had the inside line but would have probably overshot it too.
In that scenario, I suspect we’d have had a McLaren 1-2 and the RBs 3rd and 4th.
Webber (legally) held a defensive line but he really should have moved to the right in order to set himself up for the corner, allowing Vettel to either miss the corner entirely or run wide on the exit. Webber could then have retaken the position. I suspect then that Webber would have won the race and Vettel may well have lost 2nd or even 3rd to the McLarens.
Thus from a team point of view, I think both Red Bull drivers committed errors that cost the team and the drivers points and positions. It would be interesting to know whether Horner ever asked Webber how the heck he planned to get round that corner based on the line he was taking.
A bit of truth, all be it in German ..
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motorsport-total.com%2Ff1%2Fnews%2F2010%2F06%2FMarko_Anweisung_war_keine_Stallorder_10060111.html&sl=auto&tl=en
Yes, there were team orders. No Webber didn’t get them. Why swap Webber for Vettel? No answer on that one but we all know why ..
Could the explosion of this issue see the eventual separation of Dr Marko from Red Bull, perhaps then caused to develop his own form of soft drink, thus pushing Dr Pepper out of the market???
@ Soeren
How do you figure that it was WEB who risked everything.
He wouldve driven the same line if it was Di Grassi trying to overtake him.
He is AussieGrit. He wont let anyone take anything away from him for free. He has fought too long and hard to give away his one and only chance to become WC.
Any true F1 fan would expect that from a championship winning driver, of which WEB certainly has the potential to be.
You gotta earn it, and that exactly what WEB was trying to make VET do. With more experience and patients, VET would ve pulled the move off easily as he had the inside running
“If the 1-2 was most important then having the quicker in a straight line Seb defend Mark’s back would be a far more effective way of achieving that goal.”
That’s my thinking too. The faster one will be able to defend against Hamilton better.
Team orders are not allowed. I think F1 should be investigating why Webber was told to tune down and conserve fuel and Vettel was not told to. They will be allowed to scrutinise each cars data and see if there was any real reason for Webber to do it.
Consider this F1:
– Webber was told to tune down and conserve fuel on lap 37 and Vettel was not.
– Vettel crashes out on 3/4 way around lap 41
– Webber pits straight after incident on lap 42 (1/4 of a track later)
– For the next 16 laps, Webber is now allowed to tune back up to try and catch Hamilton and Button.
– In doing so, he sets the fastest lap times of the day twice
So now explain, why is he told he has to tune down to conserve fuel, but then only 3 laps later he goes back to full tune?
Sure smells like a team order was given on lap 37 to allow Vettel to catch up and take the lead.
INVESTIGATE THIS IMMEDIATELY
Joe,
Any truth to the rumor that Mark Webber is set to sign again with RBR on a one year deal?
Also reports are now coming out of Milton Keynes, Marks Engineer, Ciaron Pilbeam, is to blame for the “incident”
Either way I fail to see how this can be good for Mark.
Regards.
Thanks Joe, Great analysis.
@BreezyRacer: “And just where is Vettel in all this? Crouching under Dietrich’s desk”
Great call, made me LOL! Can just imagine that.
Whatever happened to the apparent admission from Vettel at some point after the race that he “lost” the car going over the rise and it was that which caused him to veer right? If that was indeed the case wouldn’t it just mean that even if Webber had given him more room, as Horner says he should have, the result would still have been the same – Vettel uncontrollably moved right and would’ve hit Webber in any case, just a little further across the road.
The number of versions of the story and the associated opinions from Red Bull increases and changes with each day, which only makes them look foolish and completely unbelievable. The level of information available to the average fan and the circulation of all that information after the event is unprecedented in these internet days, yet Red Bull continue to put out all manner of PR spin in the vain hope of having their version of events accepted. The images from all angles (as linked by previous posters on this site), video footage, lap timing data, speed data etc are all widely available and no amount of spin from Red Bull can change that evidence.
That’s why the blogs all across the internet, including on RBR’s own website are scathing of their statements, particularly Horner’s and Marko’s, and so overwhelmingly supportive of Webber and his actions. Nothing in this latest PR exercise will do anything to change/improve any of that.
The real lesson Red Bull need to take away from this incident, as individuals and as a team, is the fact that they are not the ones in charge of the message – the viewing public are. They can spot a crock of s**t from 100 yards – they have this past weekend and as a result, Red Bull’s stocks have gone down enormously in the eyes of their audience.
While Red Bull is in management crisis, McLaren is moving rapidly with their latest improvements. This situation has Red Bull putting some of their efforts in diffusing a crisis of their own creation. They should be focusing all efforts on making improvements to their car to keep them in the lead. Red Bull must keep themselves focused by not allowing to favor one driver.
There was valuable points squandered again and there are 12 races to go (plenty for Mr Vettel to work on his craft).
I fear at the end of the season it will be the Woking lads raising the driver and constructors trophies while Red Bull will be wondering why they thought it was so important to have Seb shine so early in the season (let him earn his stripes). On top of this, Mercedes engine has a 20-30hp advantage over Renault engine.
One last note, Adrian Newey why consul Seb, this year when the tech regs have significantly changed, it has proven that the most important person on a team is the designer. I think Red Bull should be making sure Newey is making as many trips to the podium with the drivers, not paying him to console young pups.
Mark, it’s time for you to be the bigger man, step up and show how much of a great leader you are. A true number 1 driver is one who brings the team together, and drives it forward. You sure aint getting any leadership from your team principal, so it’s up to you. As hard as it is to put this behind you, this is your time to shine as the truly great sportsman you are just like your sporting heroes from days gone by. It’s times of adversity where great people come to the fore. Hold your head high and show them who’s the next World Champion.
I appreciate this Joe – you have an insight and perspective on matters such as this that the ‘regular’ FI press ignores, or is incapable of understanding.
Hi Soeren
I do not agree with your analysis as Webber never made an aggressive move. He moved once, to defend his line and held that line. He didn’t come from the right hand side of the cercuit to box Sebastian in. Sebastian went for the very tight spot to begin with.
As I commented in an earlier post, Sebastian threw a dummy (Australian for pretending to take the outside line) before turning the car back into the inside line. Webber had already moved to the inside line to defend it but left that gap. Sebastian chose to take the small gap. We cannot accuse Webber of doing something wrong when all he did was hold his line.
Irrelevant I am just so fascinated by all these comments and posts on the incident. F1 is first and foremost in a lot of peoples minds for the right reasons.
I am wondering Joe, can we have an analysis of the greatest intra team bingles (and how the teams handled it) comparing the different eras to what we have seen in Turkey? It would be a fantastic read for GP+ perhaps?
i just discovered your grand prix blog joe, awesome stuff.
needless to say i wont be drinking red bull anymore.
i hope webber becomes dwc and mclaren for the constructors.
i would love to get a copy of the driver transcripts between the pit wall and both red bull drivers.
we know team orders arn’t allowed but im willing to bet in some mumbo jumbo mark webber was told to let vettel through.
i say this because,
we know the results and we’ve seen the reaction from red bull.
on 2 internet polls i’ve seen over 83% of the vote saying vettel was to blame for the crash.
the only way red bull can positevely blame webber for this is if there was a agreement that he had to let vettel through.
thus webber disapointing the team, and vettel being absurdly mad that he was out of the race when it was a sure thing he should have won (in his mind)
i call it race fixing.
and one more thing.
i bought red bull energy drinks just to support F1 and red bull racing. they taste like shite anyway. im only buying monster energy drinks from now on.
Fascinating stuff. Thanks Joe.
Seb 3/4s of the way past? Hrm? See this pic:
Obviously the angle may be slightly off, and the cars are around the wrong way and it’s not pretty, but it gives us a good idea. The blue line is half the length of the car from the point of the nose to the end of the rear endplate, at the 3/4 mark I’ve put a little vertical blue line. The red line is half the gap between the front and rear wheels just to give another idea if you’re more of a wheelbase guy. Green line on the right shows the impact point, front of Sebs rear wheel into the back of Marks left front.
Mark was still had half his car there, the overtake was nowhere near complete. Thats the impact point too, when Seb decided to move over Mark would’ve even been more alongside since Seb had higher speed at the time.
Horner still twisting things, is it a simple mistake or just more fudging?
Thanks for this Joe. I like the analysis – Red Bull’s PR department is now clearly in charge and is colouring in the facts to suit their interpretation – I am glad you are there to peel this away!
The part that sticks out for me is that they were “so worried” about Hamilton catching them. Lewis had already had some moves on Webber and had not made them stick. We know overtaking is difficult or is Red Bull making a tacit admission that Vettel is not very good at defending and whereas Webber could hold off Hamilton, they were not so sure of Vettel? Anyway, the laps times do not bear this out.
Roll on Canada. I think most agree that McLarens are going to F-Duct off into the distance. P3 and P4 will be interesting!
I was a huge fan of Sebastian Vettel, primarily because (apart from Lewis’s sabatical) he is the only driver in F1 without a manager. But now I guess he needs one…
According to an article by Tomáš Richter (czech F1 reporter) and his information from some undisclosed insiders, Webber has switched to a conserving mode by himself and has told it to the team who has told it to Vettel. Vettel remained on rich mix, told so to the team but they didn’t tell Webber that. According to Tomáš, it was done on purpose because Red Bull wanted Vettel to win.
The article in czech language is here: http://www.f1sports.cz/exkluzivne-za-nehodu-v-turecku-muze-red-bull
Totally agree with Lopek. Red Bull came up with the argument that the 1-2 was the most important thing, and Vettel would’ve lost his place to Hamilton if he hadn’t overtaken Webber. This argument doesn’t make sense because Webber, having been told to save fuel, would’ve been cannon-fodder for Hamilton and Button down the straights for the rest of the race. Or were Red Bull suddenly going to decide Webber had saved up enough fuel once Vettel had gone past, and he could actually race the McLarens for the rest of the race. That would’ve been convenient!
RBR still cannot face up to the truth. Vettel caused the accident, not Webber. I know that 0.18 of a second is a lot in qualifying, but is it such a great deal in the race proper when optium lap times are more difficult under racing condition?
Vettel seems to be heading in the Scumacher mould. One of the best drivers ever, yet one who will always be considered to be one of the least sporting, and hence unrespected by many.
A very diplomatic recap from Horner. He is a smart cookie, much better than people give him credit for. It won’t necessarily “fix” the relationship between Vettel & Webber, but I think they have at best been teammates, certainly not friends. I can’t see them ever having a beer together…
I have no doubt there is favouritism towards Vettel, but it isn’t nationality that is causing this (as has been commented by other visitors), but simply that Vettel is perceived as the next big thing. Unfortunately for him he has been beaten 3 races in a row by someone who really has been a journeyman (apologies to all his fans), certainly not someone who would really fit in to title consideration.
The challenge for Vettel (and perhaps RBR) is how he can restore his rep as the next big thing. His reaction after the incident was probably typical of a hot headed kid, but he needs to get over himself a bit, and start looking at why Webber is getting the upper hand in quali.
At the end of the day these incidents are art f the fabric of F1, part of what makes it so special for fans, and part of why we keep following it as passionately as we do.
Great analysis, Joe!
But I actually have a comment/question of another kind: We all understood Webbers’ visual and spoken reaction on what happened when he stood on the rostrum and in the interview afterwards.
But I found Hamilton looking a bit … well, unhappy on the rostrum.
He later told the press that he dedicated his win to the 50th birthday of his father. But why the long face?
Was it because he inhereted the win from an ‘unbeatable’ RB-team?
Was it too easily handed to him? I thought Button sure made him work for it.
Was it because Button kept him ‘honest’?
Or are there other things going on behind the scenes at McLaren?
What with all the attention going to RBR…
I found it weird that he didn’t look happier on the rostrum. Even Martin Brundle made a comment about it on the live coverage from the BBC.
Anybody got a clue?
So if Webber was in front and in clear air how come he used more fuel than Vettel who was not.
The Hare and the Tortoise
We all know Aesop’s story about the Hare and the Tortoise. The hare and the Tortoise decide to have a race. The Hare rushes off at full speed. The Tortoise plods along at a steady pace. After a while the Hare runs out of breath and the Tortoise catches him up and passes. The Hare gets his breath back and chases of again at full speed. This goes on for a bit but eventually the Hare runs out of energy and the Tortoise wins.
Now substitute the names of Webber and Vettel or Hamilton and Button for Hare and Tortoise (and you can put those names in whichever slot you want, I’m not taking sides), and ask yourself a question.
If one of your guys goes off chasing glory and in the process uses all his fuel and tyres and the other takes care of his resources and is in a position to overtake his team mate at the end. Is it fair to ask him to hold station?
Sounds, looks and feels like discrimination against Tortoises to me!
Slightly off topic but I noticed in Sainsburys that the four-pack of Red Bull drinks now have Seb Vettel’s face plastered on them but not a sign of Mark on any. Does this suggest the real driver priority of RB? 🙂
How can F1 drivers suddenly follow less than half a second behind the car in front and overtake (or attempt to overtake) when in Bahrain it was impossible to get within one second of the car in front let alone overtake? Obviously I am not complaining but what has changed? We all spent hours discussing tyres/aero/engine changes at the start of the season but now it seems resolved it is important to understand why? My history master justified himself by having this quote from George Santayana above the classroom door “Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.”
While the release takes the (totally unjustified) pressure off Webber, I am disheartened by the fact they still won’t , even slightly, admit a decent amount of guilt on Vettel’s part. It is, quite frankly, sickening.
We all know Webber won’t back out of a fight on-track. Apparantly, Vettel is the only one who missed the fact!
To me, it seems like Horner is trying to run a relativley equal racing team, while having to brown-nose Marko for the sake of relationship to the boss-man. Marko, meanwhile has to be totally on the side of his charge (and programme) because that’s all he has.
The problem is Marko having too much power. The team, I think, are largely blameless.
None of this helps poor Mark of course, I would get my name on a Renault or Ferrari contract as soon as possible. If i had to fight my way inside a team, it might as well be Ferrari on a nice retainer, esecially as I near the end of my career…
Its very clear that Redbull is still protecting vettel who was clearly the one to blame for.
Vettel doesn’t know how to overtake. He has done the same mistake more than once.
Redbull should come clean and admit that its their golden boy who was at fault. Any other reason is trying to deceive the fans which is very unfortunate
Mark at 23.53 : “By moving to the right, Vettel clearly committed a mistake and caused the accident that took him out of the points. Webber was right to hold his line but had Vettel not moved to the right, it would have been a very interesting scenario as neither could have taken that corner and retained their position:”
You may have missed it, but Webbo said somewhere (press conference ?) that Junior moved right very quickly before he expected him to.
Translation : Webbo knew that something was going to give, and was figuring out what to do when Junior caught him by surprise by veering over before he expected him to. No doubt Webbo was planning to hold it until the last moment, move away and come back through on the inside when Junior failed to make the corner.
Analysis : If Junior had any real racing nous, he’d have tried the pass on the outside, on the racing line. Jenson pulled it off – twice ! Junior seems to think he’s Senna – let me through or we’ll crash. And like Senna, he does this even to his team-mate. Not sure even Schumacher ever did that.
I wonder how close Dietrich Mateschitz’s ear is to the ground? He cannot be happy with the almost universal anti RedBull/Helmut/Horner.
From a ‘joke’ team (Horners words) to championship contenders while still being cool and uncorporate, all nullified in one weekend.
Even he can’t see this as good PR.
Sprechen zie Deutsch? ……… Red Bull, Gives You Wins
@ LoudHoward that’s a pretty picture but only shows the area of SECONDARY impact. The video shows the first impact was the front of Vettel’s rear wheel hitting the back of Webber’s front wheel. Then the deflation of Vettel’s wheel slowed it to move back into teh bargeboard.
None the less you are correct that the “pass” was far from done to allow a fast right cover move.
@ Simon NZ you suggest that Webber is not a top notch driver? He consistently has been so respected by his peersas a class act in and out of the car but with bad equipment luck. Vettel APPEARS to be a better driver solely because of his risky moves that sometimes come off. He pushes harder and when it comes off he out paces everyone. Vettel blows at overtaking is a bully and would have more accidents than say with Hamilton, Kubica jan 2009 and now Webber if guys like Webber in the past had not be unnecessarily accomodating in past crazy maneurvers.
RB would be better off with a consistent driver who looks after car and tyres like Kimi, who last year wrought great results from a crap Ferrari, along side Webber. If Kimi was Mark’s partner this year RBR would be way ahead in the championship I have no doubt. Only problem he is not German or Austrian …..
Joe,
Someone mentioned Sebastian Vettel and Robert Kubica in a posting when three laps before the end of the Australian Grand Prix cost the Pole his second victory in Formula 1. I would say that Vettel lacks a certain clear thought process in the heat of the battle and that incident has done nothing to hone those skills. Yes, Hamilton has had his red mist moments in past and such as sliding off at the pit entry in China in his rookie year. BUT he appears to have learnt from that. We can be sure that Button has, look how cautious he became in the second half of last season! The Champions have to learn to temper themselves. Not sure Vettel can do it and I suggest he will crack if Webber keeps getting the better of him. Even if mechanical issues are the root cause. This is a season that is likely to come down to clear thinking and when you look back on the first races Button has benefited from that more than anyone else to accumulate more points than his car, on the day, deserved. Hamilton probably comes second. Button on strategy, Hamilton on driving skills. What will decide between the two in the end in the battle of the team mates will be very interesting.
great story Joe;
It must be very discouraging for Webber’s side of the garage. The engineers and mechanics putting in the long hours and late nights only to turn up on pole and find out the management want the other guy to win.
There’s nothing new about Horner taking a couple of attempts to get his story straight. Remember Bahrain and the broken exhaust or was that a plug?
I’m tired of Horner continuously boosting Vettel even when Webber has done a better job. Especially narking is when Webber gets pole and Horner raves on about how Vettel would have got pole if it wasn’t for this or that.
I think it is possible that Vettel has had a few more reliability issues than Mark because he is harder on the car.
I’ve been following F1 for 45 years and I can’t remember a team who seems so intent on flushing championships down the toilet.
Marko is quoted as saying “the fastest driver should win the title.” Tell that to Prost (84) and Peterson (78)
There’s a lot of historical baggage involved when claims are made about Vettel being this “super German”. It doesn’t sit well with a lot of people.
There are 2 sports where Australian’s are treated like niggers. F1 and soccer. We’re sick of it.
There’s nothing worse in sport than seeing someone who is not allowed to win on merit. Red Bull need to accept that so far Webber has done a better job. Get over it.
Would Webber winning the title be such a disaster for Red Bull? I think Mark would make a great champion and a fine representative of the sport.
The one thing that hasn’t been picked up on is the fact that mark is now in a very strong position for the title!! It could be the best thing that could of happened to him, let’s face it red bull will be very closely scrutinized for providing equality now and even if he is out driven by vettle.. There will always be a question mark over the German … It’s win win really
Difficult to see how Seb could have saved more fuel than Mark.
This was Seb’s fault. If it had happened with Seb shooting up the inside of a corner and ‘T’ boning Mark, there would have been no argument. This was exactly the same. Seb had space to pass Mark, but he could not make the move stick. There are three areas of blame here: (1) Seb’s fault, (2) Seb’s fault, (3) Seb’s fault.
Silly move Seb. Stand up admit it was your fault and regains some respect.
It’s pretty clear cut, isn’t it, whatever the PR flacks say: as Joe says, Vettel is Marko & Mateschitz’s golden boy. They want a second driver who will support Vettel, not beat him. And notwithstanding Christian Horner’s title of Team Principal, it surely will have been made very clear to him which way the wind blows.
This means that for all the waffle about treating the drivers equally, they actually want to do exactly the opposite. And while there are no team orders anymore, there are a hundred ways that a team can favour one driver over the other, from putting parts on his car earlier, to bringing him in for a stop first, to disadvantaging him through engine programming. All of which of course, happened at RBR in Turkey.
If Mark is WDC this year, he will become so by beating not only the other 23 drivers, but also his own team.
The more I think about it the more I hope he does it, and then goes to Williams, taking the #1 with him. No doubt with some terse Australian invective directed at H. Marko, D. Mateschitz and C. Horner.
joe , that was yesterday’s official story
what about today’s official story
For Stephan Fry, yeh, my pic is around the wrong way, in that in my pic Seb would be the one on the right. I was just using it show that for the front of a rear tyre to impact the rear of a front tyre, the cars are about 50% overlapping 🙂
It would be interesting to hear/read the radio transcripts as the FIA surely has them, don’t they?
I will be interested to see if Mark has mechanical trouble next week in Montreal. I am almost willing to put money on it.
I also wonder what the reaction will be if he is out qualified by Sebastian? Will the conspiracy theories run amok? Is it fixed? Does Helmut Marko hold the keys to the championship? Does Christian Horner? Martin Whitmarsh?…..Who am I kidding. It’s Bernie, of course!
Stay tuned for another exciting episode of “On and Off the road with RedBull Racing”
In my opinion I think the team favour vettel. even before the race if you looked at their website they put vettel leading championship although it was webber leading because of the more race wins.
Hi Joe
Great stuff.
Be interested to hear your views on what happened during post quali press conference.
One one occasion, Vettel rolled eyes/raised eyebrows about a comment Webber made, then after another comment from Webber began slowly but surely shaking his head. Seems that all was not rosy before Sunday.
Vettel for all his talent and support still seems to have significant insecurities, Webber speed has got under his skin big time.
Cheers,
Mike
Analysis: This ignores the fact that Webber respected Vettel by not closing the door on him.
You sure have a slanted view on this.
If you watch the replay, the only reason he didnt close the door on him was because he wasnt quick enough. Webber went to block to the right but Vettel made a quick switch to go on the left and thus tricking Webber. When he was on the inside Webber proceded to squeeze him towards the grass. Thats not respecting him.
I have a very strong sense that what was going on within the Red Bull team was also proving a similar challenge within the McLaren team. Look carefully at Hamilton’s and Button’s communication (hard to hear properly on TV) and body-language straight after the race. Place this in the context of similar radio communications to those of Red Bull about fuel strategy (ie slow down please) from the pitwall, and Hamilton’s reaction to the win, its obvious to me that there is doubt in their minds about what the bigger-picture was.
The main difference was that McLaren had two more skilful drivers who managed not to actually clash.
My main worry is whether internal team politics will ruin proper racing in general for the future.