It seems that the team orders controversy is going on and on and people are simply becoming more and more vehement. I seem to have had a lot of upset Spaniards who seem unable to grasp the concept that it is not all a conspiracy against Alonso and that the British media have it in for him. This is just ill-informed and irritating. It suggests that the British media are a bunch of bigots who think that the sun has still to set on the British Empire. This is not the case at all and I really have trouble fathoming why these people do not understand the idea that the whole Hockenheim thing is about what is sporting and what is not sporting? It is not a conspiracy against Ferrari. It is not a conspiracy against Alonso. It is just about sport. There are perhaps one or two cases of the media looking at the issue as a good story – sadly one cannot avoid that in the modern day and age – but they would go after anyone who did the same thing.
What really upset me on Sunday was not what happened but rather the lack of thought that went into the decision. What is important is not whether Ferrari did this or that, but rather the damage it did to the sport. They did not consider that when Massa was told that Alonso was quicker. That was the problem in 2002 as well. The real issue is that Ferrari put its own interests ahead of the interests of the sport.
That is it, pure and simple. If they wish to do that then no-one can stop them, but the media can criticize if it feels that it was a bad decision, just as we will criticize Lewis Hamilton or Jenson Button if we think he is doing something wrong. Or anyone come to that.
Well said but you must remember that national pride especially among the latins overrules logic. God forbid there was something really important involved where would we be then.
Thanks for the article, Joe. You’ve proved that you see the truth beneath the surface. It’s the way Ferrari did it that’s the problem. But one Mr. Christian Horner has no right to lament about the issue when his own team indulged in dirty politics at Turkey. Thanks to Webber’s “I won’t cave in” attitude (which we admire) the crash occured and we got to know of what was really going on. Had Webber allowed Vettel through we clearly wouldn’t have any inclination of such a thing happening. Ferrari were just the opposite. It seems their attitude was:
“Hey fans, look we are applying team orders but don’t make a noise about it.”
But I do think Smedley and Massa purposely made it look obvious. I think there would be a serious analysis of the Massa camp at Maranello
My dear friend Joe, you just do not get it, do you?
The Spanish media does not want double standards, is it really that difficult to understand?
Of course, they will go balistic, I am not going to be the first, neither the last to mention Germany 2008.
Please, my dear friend Joe, who in the British media called LH a cheater in Germany 2008? Maybe NOBODY.
That is my point.
I have an idea for you next post.
Should we use double standards to punish Ferrari?
Frank,
Red the answer to Luis Miguel. I hope that this will help you understand why it is not an issue. It is very clearly completely different.
Well said Joe.
As a proud Barrichello fan from way back, I copped a barrage of “If it wasn’t happening to Rubens, you wouldn’t be so mad” at the time all of this went down in Austria so many years ago.
But I was just as filthy on Sunday. The problem lies, as it always has done, with Ferrari. They seem to truly believe they are bigger than F1 and that F1 couldn’t survive without them. To such an extent that they seem justified to play from a separate rulebook.
To me, and some of the people I’ve spoken to since, it isn’t just the actions that were taken on track. It was the utter contempt that was shown to THEIR fans and supporters of F1 in general through the subsequent interviews and press conference. Are we blind, deaf and stupid? No. We knew exactly what was going on. So did they. I said on the day that I lost a lot of respect for Mr. Stefano Domenicali, but in hindsight, I should of known better all along…
At least we don’t have to wait long for Hungary. Maybe we can see a race this time…
Well said Joe, I think you have been spot on with this story from the get go. Spanish fans have a tendency to think the sport begins and ends with Alonso, there’s a lot of them that have very little education on the sport before he arrived and undoubtedly they will pack up and leave the day he retires.
What I wonder is how the FIA’s attitude towards team orders have changed since 2007 when the outrage and paranoia of the Spanish contingent was so absolute that they felt the need to have McLaren’s every move shadowed to ensure a fair fight between its drivers. Will they install an FIA observer in Ferrari’s garages from now on to keep and eye on things and make sure Massa has just as much chance to win? Not likely.
It worries me though that Alonso is just a straw away from venting his frustration out on the track and trying something untoward. Alonso bad sportsmanship isn’t anything new but the level of desperation has undoubtedly swelled in the Spaniard over the years and I fear this will elevate the severity of whatever dirty trick he pulls next time.
Matt
Australian Autosport Community
You would never criticize button or hamilton.
Yes I do. When they deserve it. They have done nothing really wrong of late. I wish I could say the same about Alonso.
Sport is business…….The business is Ferrari…….What they do in their team is THEIR BUSINESS!! Simple Joe……All the team managers agree that it is their business what happens inside the team and the FIA should not be interfering in that.For the Drivers and constructors points Ferrari did what they had to do…points make prizes. And as for the 2 safety car incidents and the penalty over Kubica, the stewards have been abysmal!!!! But Germany showed the F10 is about to make the other girls start crying their eyes out from heree to Abu Dhabi!!! #:)
Dear Joe, without wanting to willfully contradict you – I am not Spanish, I am British, and I do not see anything wrong with what happened on Sunday.
No doubt you will therefore consider me some sort of an ill-informed, amoral charlatan. However, I just find that whole sanctimony of the majority of the coverage this incident has received as irritating as you do.
What I I also find most grating is that the general consensus appears to be that if Ferrari had contrived to make the ‘switch’ in a less blatant way, then a lot of people wouldn’t feel so aggrieved by it. You have not addressed the fact that McLaren did exactly the same thing in 2008 at the same race. What perhaps makes this incident even worse is the fact that Hamilton was clearly the teams de facto No. 1 driver that year, despite what the team had stated.
What it comes down to is a fit of righteous indignation at a decision made by a winning team that knew full-well that Alsono, who has brilliantly out-performed his tram mate all season is their best shot at winning the WDC.
Alonso – it is fair to say, is, despite your statement, something of a pantomime villain in the British media. To the extent that most seem to completely overlook his huge talent as a driver.
I get great pleasure from Alonso’s performances on track and also from his character, which makes a refreshing change from the new, seemingly fashionable image of a driver who has to be a ‘nice guy’.
I welcome your comments.
IDP,
It has nothing to do with how it was done. The key point is that it was done. As to whether or not Alonso is a villain, I refer you to the answer I have just given Luis Miguel
Hi,
Why don’t you talk about Hockenheim ’08?
Kovalainen and Hamilton…and, do you remember how it was?
Kovalainen let past Lewis more or less like Felipe, but of course, it was a British team and it was Lewis…
The reason I have not discussed Hockenheim in 2008 before this point is that it is not relevant at all in the current argument. There is simply no comparison because of differing fuel loads, differing tyre conditions and specific events which had skewed the result. Perhaps you do not remember it well because I find it extraordinary that you do not understand the difference. If two team-mates are on different strategies there will inevitably be occasions when one will get in the way of the other. It is accepted by all concerned that in such circumstances the slower driver will not block the man behind. Hamilton took the lead and quickly built a lead of 11 seconds. He regained the lead after the first round of stops and had opened up a similar margin when Timo Glock crashed into the pit wall, causing a Safety Car. McLaren made the wrong decision to leave him out, while everyone else made their stops and so Hamilton lost all the time that he had gained and found himself at a disadvantage as he was unlikely to be able to make up 23 secs before his next stop. He pushed as hard as he could but failed to build the gap necessary. He re-emerged in fifth place, just behind Kovalainen, who had been on the same tyres for 12 laps and was, in any case, much slower. Heikki waved him through. Heidfeld went into the pits while Lewis caught and passed both Massa and Piquet to win. His fastest lap was 0.456s faster than Kovalainen’s best lap. It is entirely different to having two drivers on the same strategy, running at the same pace and the leader being told to move over for the man behind. No-one complained. The FIA took no action. The reason that Ferrari ran into trouble in Germany was because there was no need to put Alonso ahead of Massa, beyond the very tenuous argument that he has more points. There were still eight races to go in the World Championship and thus the move looked as though the team was favouring Alonso when there was no reason to do so. That simply looked bad for the sport – and that is what Ferrari will be judged on.
I think you need to pull away from the nationalistic slant that you seem to have. Alonso is treated the same as the other drivers. The serious British media in F1 do not have anything against him. We appreciate that he is an exciting driver. It would be better if he drove more and waved his hands about less and spent less time on the radio complaining about this and that. The penalty at the British GP was stupid, both on his part and on the part of the team. He was unlucky in Valencia. That is it. Don’t make it into something that is not there.
Just to prove that I dont only comment when I disagree with you-Hear Hear! that is the must succinct explanation of the events of Sunday and there aftermath that Ive read anywhere!
We wouldn’t be talking about this if engineer and driver had not chosen to be so blatant about it. Their actions were designed to highlight the order and embarrass their own team. If I was Domenicalli, I’d be considering Smedley’s position. Note how, after being so blatant and deliberately revealing about it on the radio (including the apology which he is now ‘explaining’ away with a load of bullshit) Smedley is claiming it wasn’t a team order at all. Spineless.
At least the other teams are discrete when they give their team orders.
Ferrari could have made the ‘pass’ look like a titanic battle for the lead, and most people would have gone away satisfied. Instead they just seemed to have thought, ‘we’re Ferrari, we do what we like’, without a thought for the sport or the fans.
I think that’s what has pi$$ed most people off.
Is it true that because they are not appealing the stewards decision, the world council cannot impose further punishment on them?
Where I come from (Canada), the term “Spaniard” isn’t exactly the n-word, but it’s on the pejorative end of the spectrum when it comes to referring to national or ethnic origins.
Yet I have noted that the British F1 media (which I read obsessively) consistently refer to Alonso as “the Spaniard.” It’s always “Hamilton did X” and “Vettel did Y,” and “the Spaniard did Z.”
Rarely is Webber reduced to “the Aussie,” Kubica “the Polack” (unless he qualifies P1, when the temptation for a bit of clever wordplay seems impossible to resist), or Kobayashi “the Oriental.”
Perhaps that’s just how things work in the UK, but from a Canadian perspective, the consistent use of “the Spaniard” when referring to Alonso is both conspicuous and questionable.
The issue of team orders is an important (and difficult) debate in F1, but come on… it’s simply not true that this incident has garnered the same degree of scrutiny as other, equally blatant examples of team orders in the recent past.
Remember the huge controversy over the Hamilton-Kovalainen team orders incident at Hockenheim in 2008? Didn’t think so.
Garzpa,
Has the world gone mad? There are some countries that are “enlightened”, but I am terribly sorry I come from a world where people are described using words that best describe them: a person from Spain is called a Spaniard. A person from Britain is called a Briton, a person from Germany is called a German, a man from France is a Frenchman and girl is called a Frenchwoman. If the expression Spaniard does not fit with Canadian sensitivities (am I allowed to say Canadian, or will that upset someone somewhere?) then I am afraid that all Canadians must look with open-mouthed with shock at such writings. You’ll be telling me next that a man from China is called a… I know… I’m not allowed to say the C word when Canadians are listening…
Joe,
I love the Ferrari attitude. All the other teams fart about talking rubbish about fairness and being sporting. Nobody wants to watch a sport with sportsmanship. Even Le Tour this year was a ruthless affair and all the better for it.
Anyone who thinks that Ferrari were too unsporting for F1, then F1 is not the sport for you. Unless of course you hate Ferrari, then by all means lambast them from on high. Thats part of the sport too!! I suspect that we all have our little biases. And I’m glad we do.
Joe Cowan
…and I’ve certainly never seen any stories referring to Jenson Button as “the Limey”!
What I don’t understand is the people that say it would be fine if they had covered it up better. Surely this is actually worse as then you don’t know if you are watching a sport or a parade and will never know if the right person won. If team orders are to be allowed I think the exact opposite should happen and the teams should have to openly declare what they are doing, surely this would be more in the interests of the sport rather than trying to cover things up and F1 becoming known as a farce or with the fans never really knowing if the results have been artifically changed. I would add that the teams should only be allowed to do this a set number of times per race / season but fear that this could lead to the same problem still arising. Am I in the minority of 1 with this opinion?
Sorry Joe, but I can’t agree with you on this. It really looks like the British press is biased against Ferrari and Alonso.
You said the press would go after anyone the same way.
I sincerely doubt that Mclaren and Lewis Hamilton would be savaged the same way. Remember Turkey?
It’s sports, folks.
Flopping is illegal in soccer. Everybody does it. The clever ones benefit from it, and don’t get caught. The not-so-clever ones won’t, and get caught for it sometimes. The ones who make it obvious will get carded/sent off every single time. It doesn’t mean the sport is unfair or that you’re being prejudiced against or that the rules against flopping should be done away with.
Fouls are illegal in basketball. Everybody does them. The clever ones benefit from it, and don’t get caught. The not-so-clever ones won’t, and get caught for it sometimes. The ones who make it obvious will get technical/flagrant foul calls every single time. It doesn’t mean the sport is unfair or that you’re being prejudiced against or that the rules against fouls should be done away with.
Team orders are illegal in F1. Everybody does them. The clever ones benefit from it, and don’t get caught. The not-so-clever ones don’t, and get caught for it sometimes. The ones who make it obvious will be harshly penalized every single time. It doesn’t mean the sport is unfair or that you’re being prejudiced against or that the rules against team orders should be done away with.
When your radio transmissions make it clear that team orders are happening, to the point where the FOM broadcasters pick up on it, to the point where every broadcast team picks up on it, to the point where you get grilled about it in the interview room 20 minutes later, you have been very very obvious. When you’re in a sport that allows these things to be addressed months (or even a year!) after the fact, to think you can get away with something like this is crazy.
That’s it in a nutshell, Joe. I’d only add to “that was the problem in 2002″ – that’s always been the problem, it’s Ferrari’s culture. As much as I can admire their individual victories, driver and team, they will always offend in the way they approach the concept of sport. And to those who say ‘get real, it’s big business’ I’d reply that, fortunately, there seem to be enough people involved who do approach it as a sport to carry on making it worth watching.
“There are perhaps one or two cases of the media looking at the issue as a good story”
See the subject of Radio 5′s Monday morning phone-in: ‘Is Formula 1 a real sport?’
there are bigots and fundamentlists everywhere, Joe. It is not possible to placate them unless you think exactly they way they do. That way lies madness.
ignore them and discuss away mate.
We’ll see what the World Council decides — my suspicion, giving the growing chorus of voices from the paddock calling for the ban on team orders to be scrapped, is that they will do nothing, and indeed that we will see rule 39.1 rescinded at the earliest available opportunity.
If Alonso becomes WDC by six points he and his team will have to live with people saying that they won in an unsporting manner.
It’s a bit of a cleft stick, isn’t it? On the one hand team orders have always been part of the sport, on the other hand we don’t want occasional or casual fans saying “F1 is all fixed.
Maybe the answer is to allow team orders except when one of the cars is leading the race, both on-track or pitstop-adjusted. That would give team principals a lot of their flexibility back — and it would prevent unseemly results like Austria 2002 or Hockenheim 2010.
This was a serious violation, worse yet, an Intentional violation. One that I suspect will receive a penalty so serious as to remove any advantage Ferrari received, and then some.
Ferrari did not simply violate a rule, they broke a rule with obvious premeditation. They broke a rule without the barest hint of apology. They broke a rule while displaying near full contempt for the officials. Worse yet, Ferrari broke a rule that was Specifically enacted to stop this exact sort of action BY Ferrari.
It’s clear that Ferrari dislike the ban on team orders and feel the ban is completely antithetical to how they wish to run their team. Just yesterday, Luca di Montezemolo as much as admitted their guilt. One belief is that Ferrari broke the rule in such a provocative and unapologetic way so as to bully the sport into changing a rule they don’t like.
If the FIA wishes to retain any semblance of authority over rules enforcement, I don’t see how the World Council could let such brash and willful violations give a net benefit to the violator. Further punishments strongly appear to be strongly on the cards.
Were I deciding Ferrari’s fate in the World Council, I’d hand down a “Nascar” type of penalty. Everyone involved in this intentionally illegal action would be penalized. The team manager (Domenicali) who knowingly gave the illegal order would be banned from the paddock for the rest of the season. The race engineers who passed the orders to the drivers would be banned for a race. And, yes, the driver (Massa) who accepted the illegal order would also face a race ban, as would the driver (Alonso) who benefited. If Ferrar wish to run replacement drivers, so be it.
The $100,000 fine is a laughable penalty for any top F1 team. A race ban for all involved is the only sort of penalty that would get the attention of the teams and drivers.
Despite the hue and cry from a great many paddock mavens calling for the team orders ban to be rescinded, the fans overwhelmingly WANT this rule to remain in place. To those who suggest such a rule is unenforceable, I say BAH!
This case Proves that team orders bans are completely enforceable. This rule is no more unenforceable than a rule against intentionally causing accidents. Eventually, someone will talk. Eventually, some driver or team member will be spurned and spill the beans. If a team breaks this rule, there is a significant risk that the truth will eventually come out. If the officials take a strong line against Ferrari in this, teams will think many times before intentionally violating this rule.
Were Domenicali given a remaining season ban for intentional and premeditated violation of the team orders ban, were any advantage of this illegal order taken away, how many other team managers would risk a similar decision?
When a rule is broken, intent matters. An unintentional, accidental violation should typically bring a lesser penalty than a willful breech. In this case, there is absolutely NO doubt that Ferrari broke rules on purpose. They violated them without apology and while showing a near COMPLETE contempt for the officials. For this, if nothing else, they deserve to have the book thrown at them.
Well put, Joe. The reason European fans assume the British media have it in for Alonso is because that is their default setting – the Spanish media are shamefully biased and tribal.
This phenomenon is partly down to the fact that the Spanish press are latecomers to the F1 scene (the sport was barely reported before Alonso broke through to the pinnacle in 2003) and their F1 journalism reflected their football reporting – Marca and As being rabidly pro-Madrid and painfully biased against Barcelona; Sport and El Mundo Deportivo the reverse.
With Alonso being a national hero this means that all the editors and journalists are all lined up in the same direction, effectively competing to be the most biased towards Alonso and massively against all his rivals. So the default setting for a Spanish fan is to assume the British media have a vendetta against Alonso (from the Hamilton days) simply because they are judging them by their own standards.
The breadth of coverage in the sports dailies in Spain is different class compared to the UK nationals but sadly the tone of reporting does not do their efforts justice.
ferrari are useless.
Ban them-fine them-who cares…………
They are the oposite of sport so not really worth the effort to worry about.
In the interests of F1 what ferarri did was wrong… if they let Massa Win the whole world would have heaped praise on them.. Instead they have this pr nightmare… Forums around the world are in overload with negative comment. This year we have had good racing close and entertaining ..
Some thoughts that I have concerning the German GP are as follows:-
-team orders aside the German GP was very boring. The worst race since Bahrain. The only interest was Massa being ahead of Alonso and that was taken away from us.
-if Red Bull adopted Ferrari’s approach and asked Mark Webber to move aside for Sebastien Vettel every time he was ahead of him then surely Vettel would be on the way to being WDC?
-McLaren and RBR are at a clear disadvantage to Ferrari in terms of winning the world championship. Would Ferrari be better suited to Le Mans where choreographed finishes are par for the course and perhaps that race is more about engineering rather than sport? Bernie has seen a good opportunity to divide and conquer the teams over the team order rule as he seems to be siding with Ferrari which is strange considering his position in the sport ultimately is promotion.
-three reasons why I would not waste money going to a GP abroad:-
poor stewarding (Belgian GP 2008)
Races cut short due to inapprorpiate scheduling (Malaysia 2009)
Team orders (Germany 2010)
This season has been excellent up to now but after Germany I feel pretty disillusioned and am not concerned that I have to work this Sunday.
Joe, I follow your blog with great interest, and have been moved at last to add my observations.
As a Brit I would be just as disgusted (if unsurprised) by McLaren or any British based team doing such a thing to benefit a British driver. For me, it’s not about nationality, it’s about an outmoded concept called “doing the right thing”. Increasingly, it’s an alien idea in “sport”.
I do wish, though, that even if they feel justified in doing the wrong thing, teams would stop treating their audience like fools by playing innocent after.
Mathematically, I don’t reckon Massa is completely out of WDC contention yet: therefore, for all the talk about Ferrari doing what was best for the team, unless it’s now called Scuderia Alonso Ciggie-Company the switch of position made no difference. Of course it was done to benefit the driver currently higher in the championship standings, so come out and say it, Ferrari! I may not like what was done, but I’d respect the culprits a bit more if they were straight about it.
The damage to the sport had been done in the preceeding years, by bringing in the farcical ‘no team orders’ rule and continuing the charade that it didnt happen.
It always has and it always will. Far too much money on the line for it not to.
Sadly there are many people (fans and media it would appear) gullible enough to buy into this. How many examples of team orders does it take before its accepted that everyone does it? Is it only wrong if its made clear to even the most intellectually challenged over the radio, but perfectly acceptable if its agreed to between drivers and team pre-race? Is scheduling pitstops to rearrange your cars permissable?
I really dont buy the argument that Ferrari didnt put much thought into this at all. Looking back at the events of the weekend its clear Alonso was laying the groundwork for this in the pre-race interviews. It was clear from the team radio snippets we heard that the plan was in place (the ‘you can win this’ conversation between Massa & his engineer makes no sense at all in any other context).
Sadly I really dont feel comfortable with my allies on this side of the argument; Ferrari and Eddie Jordan – who as far as I am concerned are wrong 90% of the time. Of course Eddie being Eddie he will probably have changed his mind yet again by now.
Maybe the Spaniards you refer to are still a bit sore over the whole destruction of their armada thing. Sometimes people hold grudges for far too long. Bear in mind the aforementioned comment was made with tongue firmly ensconced in cheek.
This is exactly what I was articulating to a Spanish friend of mine last night…. and it is why F1 will continue to fail in the American market place – people in North America want fair, hard competition between rivals, full stop.
Can we imagine what the 1980′s would have looked like had this business been the norm? Piquet v Mansell? Senna v Prost? Would have been one epically boring decade… instead we revere it and wax poetic. I think we should remember why.
F1 is not about the Teams, it’s about the fans who make it possible, and to deprive said fans of an honest battle is unforgivable, particularly given the processional nature of the sport.
While I “kinda” agree, I think that Ferrari “really” went wrong back in 2002. If they had not pulled such a stupid stunt, and it was completely unnecessary as it was only playing to Schumacher’s ego, then Mad Max would not have introduced the current, basically unenforceable rule and everyone would have continued on thinking that the results were all above board!
I think that every drivers contract has a clause in it that say’s roughly something to the effect that they will follow every legal order given them by the team.
Now when a team gives an order, and make no mistake, the message given to Massa was an order, no matter how it was conveyed, then there is the question of how does a driver know if its legal?
So while we have such rules, and I can have a degree of sympathy with teams that invest gazillions in fielding a team and want the best results for themselves and sponsors etc, teams do have to follow the rules and hence, Ferrari are guilty as we all know they are and the drivers concerned are also guilty because they also knew the rules and I’m sure they discussed it ahead of the race.
The net result is the team and drivers defrauded everyone with there actions in Germany and will continue to do so until the rules are changed or they run out of money paying the fines.
If Ferrari had used a bit of common sense they could easily have manipulated the positions, Massa could easily have run longer on his preferred soft tyres, ideally just long enough for them to go off resulting in him losing enough ground to Alonso to come out behind him. A poor pit stop (and Ferrari have managed those a few times before!) could also have done the trick. As a fan I know team orders exist, it’s just the way some teams carry them out that causes rage, swapping places on track as we saw at the weekend looks clumsy and does no one any good. While I guess Ferrari’s sponsors (well some of them – no barcodes!) will benefit from the media coverage of this, I suspect they’d much rather have “Massa wins a year to the day he nearly died” headlines than “Ferrari cheats – again” after all, who wants to be associated with cheats (ING?) If anyone from Ferrari is reading this, if you must swap the cars around in a race, do it with style (isn’t that something the Italians are supposed to be good at!) Yes Alonso’s had some unlucky moments with timing of safety cars (payback for Singapore!) who knows what will happen in the next few races, RBR and McLaren may be the unlucky ones (be honest it’ll rain at Spa at some point and we all know what happens when qualy’s damp!)
Great blog Joe, love the sidepodcast chats too, looking forward to the next GP+ it should provide some entertainment on a train ride!
I think it is clear to most rational observers that an exceptionally bad streak of luck in Valencia and Silverstone left Ferrari in a highly unusual situation where even at the half way point of the season they had no other choice but to switch their drivers during the race. Massa (who himself has had assistance from his Ferrari team mate in the past) himself seems to be as aware of that as anybody.
I don’t believe that Alonso was given the status of no.1 driver at the beginning of the season nor do I believe that Massa’s contract effectively makes him the no.2. If you recall at the beginning of the season, Alonso specifically spoke of his willingness putting the interests of the Ferrari team before his own as a driver.
Most morally outraged critics seem to accept the fact that team orders are part of F1 but complain that the way this incident was executed was the problem. To my mind they are therefore effectively saying they’re happy in their ignorance and Ferrari should have allowed them to remain so. Ferrari’s actions seem to me more honest than Mclaren’s attempts to control races by giving more cryptic ‘fuel management’ instructions (which were clearly in play again on Sunday).
Furthermore if Alonso’s victory was a hollow one then what does that make Hamilton’s 2008 WDC? In that year Mclaren, clearly stung by the events of 2007, ran a de-facto no.2 driver yet nobody complained, least of all Hamilton, when Kovalainen was consistently given new parts after Hamilton and made to move over at Hockenheim in 2008.
Sorry but it still seems to me that the problem is not when or how team orders are implemented but by whom.
As David Coulthard said to Jake Humphrey; ‘let’s not get too tabloid about it’.
This whole mess is really telling about the way Ferrari have been operating as a team…two (actually three) races in a row they have some incredibly simple, obvious issue in following the basic principles laid out in the sporting regulations. Alonso, backed by Ferrari, has become a primadonna of late, whining when penalties don’t impact his rivals and whining some more when he knowingly commits acts on track that have, at the least, the same penalties (first it was not giving back a position at Silverstone and now the team orders, although this week Alonso has been relatively quiet on his thoughts).
You don’t see this behavior in many professional sporting series and I find it disturbing that fans can’t recognize whats going on here. Ferrari KNEW they would be in the spotlight, they KNEW it would be obvious, and they still issued team orders WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD WAS WATCHING TO SEE HOW THEY SCREWED UP THIS TIME.
One can’t help but get the impression Ferrari thinks they’re above it all when they act this way, as if they expect to get away with breaking the rules (and then expect to get away with the tantrums when they get a half-a$$ed hand slapping from the FIA). And. somehow, Fernando is in the thick of yet more controversy, as if it follows him from team to team.
So is it Alonso, or his bad choice in teams? (I’m going with Alonso as the catalyst, too much going against him in this equation). He’s doing these things expecting to be backed by his team…which opens up more questions about what he knew about Singapore. And the data issues at McLaren. And who knows what else. You don’t just get away with this behavior, it builds on itself. So, Dear Tifosi: Leave Joe Alone! Start asking questions of your beloved Ferrari and Alonso.
As a Ferrari Fan, I agree with you Joe.
If Ferrari wants to put its own interests ahead of the sport no-one can stop them. So why are we having this discussion in the first place? Why is there a rule that says they cannot? It’s a team sport and as such, the team’s needs come before the individual.
Thinks of it in terms of Basketball, one player needs to set a ‘pick’ to allow the other to score. Without the ‘picker’, the scorer would probably only score have the amount of points. THAT is a true team sport!
I understand that Ferrari would have scored the same points regardless who leads but it’s desperate times for Ferrari right now and Alonso needs all the points he can to bring the WDC to the ‘team’. Maybe it’s people like me and ‘The Spaniards’ who think this has been blown completely out of proportion and without real explanation why, some have cried ‘conspiracy!’
I hated watching DC, EI, RB, FM and maybe MW treated to teams orders.
I would prefer to know about it rather than be treated as a child and mislead by some other secret means such as be careful of your brakes… At least this way we know Massa was indeed faster?
The teams pay for everything, so until such time as this is different, they will continue to direct the way the cars are driven!
Joe.
The real problem is not team orders. People are ready to accept that. Massa got one victory over Raikonen in 2008, and nobody complains. So, Alonso is performing better overall? He owns more points? He is probably a contender for 2010? Yes for all.
The real problem is incompetence. How the professionals at Ferrari did not realize that it would be difficult for Alonso to overtake Massa? Come on. It should be radioed to Massa: Fuel consumption excessive. Your pit will be delayed for 4 laps due to better strategy.
Brawn did that with Rubens last year, noticeable in Barcelona, and, well, life goes on.
joe.. why you just mention 2002 and 2010.??.. it also happened in 2007.. 2008, and 2009.. and not only ferrari, mclaren also did it… and nobody talked that much about it
There seems an assumption by some bloggers that as teams have a hundred subtle ways to favour one driver over another if they want to, then what Ferrari did was just a blatant example of that, so it’s hypocritical to object to it. Luca would like us to swallow this.
But as Joe says in his piece, the way it’s done is important. The spectators who pay huge sums (thanks Bernie) to watch the show have the right to a show. The Nascar people never forget that. Ferrari have an obligation (i.e. its not optional) to help provide the show that keeps them all in business. If they don’t want to do their bit, they really should go and try something else.
I hope the fine the stewards imposed (the maximum they could set) is just the start, and that the points for the placings are reversed.
PS I’ve never read an article in English that called Alonso ‘the Spaniard’, except in the journalistic context where they’re trying to vary the subject. In that context it happens to everyone.
Joe – in regards to Garzpa’s point – you have entirely missed his point..
Don’t worry – I know you don’t post criticisms.
Sorry Joe, but what you say is not true. The British Press is biased, and the fact that you cannot see that, well….
The British Press is very pro Lewis Hamilton (I think there is another factor in this as well, but no one says it because it is the elephant in the room). It is also pro British Teams, primarly McLaren, but others as well (and I am biased in this area as well because Frank Williams and Patrick Head are hero material to me).
I have been following F1 for 5 decades, and my best source of information is the British Coverage, but that does not make it perfect or unbiased.
I’ll give you an example that might even upset you, until you think about it.
What caused the blow up at McLaren afew years ago. Was it:
A) Alonso staying in his pit to long in qualifying to teach a young driver a lesson for screwing him around.
B) Alonso threatning Ron Dennis about what had really happened on the design.
C) Alonso testifying what happened.
or D) A young driver showing his arse and not following his instructions and screwing with his older world champion teammate, and nobody doing anything about it until Alonso got the ball rolling, first by teaching the young driver a lesson in the pit, and then going to the team principle and saying either do something about this or I will teach you a lesson, because your shorts are dirty too.
I like McLaren, I like the British teams, and for that matter I did not start rooting for Ferrari until Kimi went there, and I don’t mean I didn’t root for them when Michael was there, I didn’t root for them since the early ’60s – I was a nine year old Ford fan.
But please stop this “the Brits are hollier than thou” routine.
Re the word Spaniard–
No, Joe, the world is still clinging precariously to sanity. Although Canadians can be a bit mealy-mouthed from time to time (I can one myself and so am presumably allowed to comment), “Spaniard” in this country is indeed the correct collective noun for a person from Spain.
As an example, even the Toronto Star, a paper that generally tries to out-Guardian the Guardian, has printed the word “Spaniard” no fewer than 13 times in the past ten days or so.
No offence involved, then, and back to saying nasty things about Fernando Alonso based not on his nationality but his character and actions…
[quote]Joe Cowan – “Nobody wants to watch a sport with sportsmanship.”[/quote]
This is an incorrect generalization and pessimistic to the extreme. I, and I would most others demand sportsmanship in the sports we watch. Without it we watch nothing more than an anarchic battle of dishonorable player, not Sport. The day when viewership refutes sportsmanship and fairplay will be a tragic day, indeed.
Joe,
Setting aside the particular events of Hockenheim 2010, what is your feeling on team orders generally? Most comments from the paddock seem to be in favour of them in principle. Should rule 39.1 be ditched?
joesaward let me put to you in black and white.
The rule is the rule, McLaren and Ferrari broke it.
So what is going to be penalties for both or none of them?
… or maybe “double standards” as you have been trying to introduce without mention it.
… or maybe we can pretend to be deluded and argue that McLaren did not brake the rule.
Is it really that difficult to understand?
So what you’re saying is that team orders are only sporting if done by stealth: blamed on pit strategy or fuel mixes…
Believe it or not, most of Spanish fandom was pretty upset by what happened during the race. Most sports journalists were too, especially those at regular newspapers; Marca and Diario As, the two sports papers that pay the most attention to F1, thought everything was fine. They have journalists who are personally closer to Alonso. Sycophants, to be honest, who’ve messed with Alonso’s head by earning his trust back when most of the F1 world seemed to want Kimi or Schumacher to beat him.
But we see a hugely disproportionate response, and that’s happened often enough (even before Hungary ’07) to put people on the defensive even if a lot of the criticism is warranted.
Joe, What is the difference between Hamilton/Kovalainen at Hockenheim in 2008 and Alonso/Massa now? If it is fair play that is the complaint of the British journalist, why was there no complaint when McLaren blatantly did it?…Garzpa, as a Canadian I am baffled by your statement. Canada is full of Italians, Aussies,, Japanese, Spaniards and every other group on the planet. If they weren’t Spaniards and people of Spanish decent celebrating on the streets of Toronto after the world cup, who were they? I hope you know Canucks is not a dirty word, ’cause that’s what we are here.
Garzpa,
I am also in Canada, and I have to say that I can’t think of a single instance where I have heard the term “Spaniard” used pejoratively. Perhaps that’s the enlightened, cosmopolitan Ottawan way and it isn’t reflected elsewhere, but to suggest that any British media outlet (bar, perhaps, the redtops) does this in anything other than a descriptive way displays a level of ignorance and bigotry that perhaps you weren’t intending to air publicly.
For myself (with both UK and Canadian heritage) I have to say I have been extremely disappointed by the behaviour of a number of drivers this year, one of whom was Lewis Hamilton. Not everyone who has English as a first language and whose blood runs 90% tea thinks the sun shines from the nether regions of his race overalls. I used to be quite the fan of Alonso, ironically, as in the early days he really did seem to be a breath of fresh air (Schumacher, 130R, no other words are needed). However, he has morphed into everything he used to claim to hate, and his flagrant hypocrisy this year (which Christian Horner has been gleefully turning back on him lately) stinks. He clearly isn’t the fastest thinking driver out there; just look at how Schumacher got the drop him at Monaco, in a move that I still think was perfectly legal thanks to the ineptitude of Whiting et al. Nor is he actually looking very racey of late; Massa was in an awful state for his first three laps on the harder tire last weekend, but did FA even get close to overtaking him? No. Add to that Kobaiyashi comprehensively out driving him in Valencia and you have what appears to be a driver who seems to think that the Championship should be handed to him on a plate.
In contrast to your assumptions, my own experience of watching motorsport in the UK (both live and on TV) suggests that the Corinthian attitude is still the dominant one. Partisan and (whisper it) jingoistic fans do of course still abound, but most would prefer to see a stirring, skillful drive by a non-Brit, than a UK-born driver winning by hook or by crook.
Obviously there is nothing inherently prejudicial about referring to someone from Spain as a Spaniard or to anyone by their nationality. But if it is done consistently and unevenly, reasonable questions can be raised. I think that is the point Apfran was raising.
Couldn’t hurt for sports journalists to be aware to that possibility.
As far as team orders go, its worth remembering that few sports are faced with F1′s dilemma. F1 gets its own kind of sportpersonship.
In most sports the team comes first, individual accolades are marginal and the team will consistently direct the team in ways which will ensure it wins the “Championship” (whatever that may be) without a care to whether that direction harms one individual’s success.
F1 has decided that it is not a team sport, rather, that each driver is supported by a constructor that also supports another driver. In essence, we have one entity in charge of two competing teams. This puts constructors in a very difficult position and results in the drama we saw on Sunday.
I think team orders will always happen and usually the fans will agree with them as they did with Massa/Kimi in 2008. Sometimes some, will disagree as here where its conceivable that Massa could still make Championship attempt. I think the present controversy has much more to do with Rob Smedley’s sarcastic tone and anti-Alonso bias, than anything Ferrari did, which as Brundle implied during the race, was reasonable.
I fully endorse Joe’s views here with regards to Hockenheim 2008.
There are massive differences to what happened last Sunday. Hamilton went on to win that race whereas Kovalainnen remained in the same position. If memory serves me correct I do not recall Kovalainnen looking anything like Massa did after these respective races. Massa looked destroyed. He gave up the lead of the race very reluctantly….
I really believe the whole ban on team orders should be scrapped. Not because I like team orders, or approve of Ferrari’s action at the German GP. But, because the whole thing is a charade. It’s impossible to police. Blatant or subtle doesn’t matter to me…both are the same thing.
Is it okay if a team manipulates two drivers’ tire changes to orchestrate a switch of positions?
Why would that be any better than simply having one driver slow down on track and allow a teammate to pass?
You’d rather be taken out to dinner and a movie and lied to, instead of just lied to straight away?
Frankly, I don’t see a difference. Whether subtle or blatant, both are manipulating the race for the same purpose. Why not just get rid of the pretense of fair play? We all know it’s not true anyway. If fans don’t agree with particular team tactics, then they should speak up both verbally, in print, and with their wallets. If you don’t like how Ferrari deal with team orders, don’t support the team, their drivers, or their sponsors and let them know exactly why you’re not supporting them. Money talks.
In the meantime, unless the WMSC gives Ferrari more than the $100k slap on the wrist they’ve received, I see no reason for Ferrari, or any other team, to not flout the team orders rule…sporting, or not.
“…a person from Spain is called a Spaniard” (even if he is Catalan like De la Rosa and Alguersuari). It’s a bit like insisting on referring to David Coulthard as “the Briton”: technically correct but a bit odd.
Another tangential point…
Vettel has to be pretty happy about all the brouhaha over Ferrari team orders. It has silenced any talk about how poorly he started and how he tried to push Alonso into the wall on the start allowing Massa and Alonso to pass him.
Why do you think the British press would refer to anyone by an expression that is only used in America?
I would suggest anyone who thinks this is only an issue for the British press searches twitter for @InsideFerrari which is the official Ferrari account. All Sunday night there were thousands of negative messages sent to them in every language you can imagine including Italian and Spanish. Many people with Ferrari related images in their avatar were launching into the teams saying they thought what happened was wrong.
What’s this? No team orders? Do I understand this correctly? The team in a team sport can not dictate how the team should play the game? The real culprit is the inane rule that doesn’t allow team orders.
Hi Joe
your considerations always great, very pleasant to read and stimulating to mind.
but I would like to show my disagreement with one comment just above – not sure this a place for that, it’s a blog not a forum.
well, F1 is not a team sport like football or basketball or volleyball, where the points go to the ‘clubes’ (as in Brazil we call teams, generically) – and there are many players in the field, under direction of one coach and its assistants.
In F1, each driver with its own engineer and mecs (I think these could be considered as players in the field too, given the importance of pit stops). The points that count to fame and news are drivers’.
Said that, what really annoyed me (been light on words here), was that I was following the duel closely, keeping attention to the times and to the way both drivers keeping up with each other, and had the whole thing interrupted by radio voicings – starting with the hothead spaniard.
Suddenly, I was deprived of the pleasure for which I watch this thing since 1972, by means of a world champion getting angry about himself (he had lost his advantage starting position) , followed by one ridiculously spoken order (what was that? Does Felipe suffers from any defficiency? Is he deaf?) to the racer ahead of him.
Never had support feelings for any team – with the exception of Copersucar Fittipaldi, well, that was in the past century and for a short time – and always went for witnessing top level race driving, among individuals of any nationality.
Right now seems that the Italian team had a second goal in perpetrar such farce, to force the rule about team orders to be wiped – maybe a more important goal than choosing just one of his drivers to contest the title.
Ou seja, thats all relevant only to the people who do not go into the field when the game starts.
Massa/Kimi 2008? I mean Kovi/Ham 2008. Sorry.
Brent,
Joe has answered your question very well up the page. The big difference comes when it is one team mate defending the indefensible position (due to strategy differences, or tire wear, or car malfunction, etc.), and when two cars are equally matched. A much more apposite comparison would probably be Couthard lifting heavily to allow Hakkinen to pass at the 1998 Australian Grand Prix. As with last weekend this was a crass move, made between two cars on the same strategy, at a point where there was no other car seriously challenging them. As this was also at the first race of that season there was not even the “more points” argument to make; the team simply favoured Mika. There were oddities surrounding the situation, as some error in team communication (Ron Dennis claimed their radio system had actually been hacked into…) caused MH to enter the pits for no reason, thereby losing the lead to DC in the first place.
You may not remember 1998, but I do. That move caused a huge amount of controversy in the press, both in the UK and abroad. At the time there were no rules regarding team orders so there was nothing the stewards could do. Instead they referred to incident to the WMSC as they felt that McLaren’s actions breached Article 151c of the ISC. Sound familiar? The idea that, under similar circumstances, the British press treat McLaren any differently from Ferrari is simply not supported by the evidence.
There were still eight races to go in the 2008 World Championship, too… so the conclusion that “the move [in 2010] looked as though the team was favouring Alonso when there was no reason to do so” ought to be equally applicable in both instances, no?
You note that Hamilton had no trouble overtaking Massa and Piquet, so if Kovalainen was on worn tyres and much slower in any case, why was it necessary to wave Lewis through?
Joe’s vigorous defence of Hockenheim 2008 supports the pro-Alonso camp’s point: all manner of excuses and justifications are raised in certain circumstances, while in other situations it’s apparently a clear-cut/blatant case of cheating… and I just don’t think things are that simple. I haven’t seen the lap times from the race, and I’m sure their race pace wasn’t that drastically different, but Alonso’s qualifying pace was nearly half a second better than Massa’s.
BTW, I’ve never been fond of Ferrari (more of a McLaren fan) and am well aware that Alonso’s petulence and whining really detract from his stature as an otherwise exceptionally talented racing driver. I also felt badly for Felipe, just as I felt badly for Rubens in 2002…
But it seems to me that Alonso’s clearly become the English-speaking F1 media’s punching bag (perhaps inheriting a role once held by a certain 7-time champion whose conduct was often dubious and whose attitude rubbed many the wrong way).
sorry, joe, forgot to say:
I dont believe in any significant punishment by the World Council, it is scheduled for the Friday, fist day of the Italian GP at Monza. Spare me.
In fact, it fits for announcing the ban of the said rule.
You know, the more I think about this the more I wish the radio conversation had gone like this:
Smedley: “ok so, Alonso is faster. Please confirm that you understand this message.”
Massa: “I see…which corner does he want me to crash at?”
I -again- took my time to read all the reactions above and under the other blogs by Joe about this subject. I have come to some conclusions and of course, my inside information is very limited and I miht be on the wrong foot..just consider it food for thought.
- Rob Smedley took a big risk conveying the message to Felipe Massa the way he did. Either way he scouted a dictionary for the word “prima donna” and saw Fernando Alonso in the description and was fed up or he has a better job-offer lingering around….
- Massa took a lap mesmerizing about having Kimi Raikonnen as a teammate again, was so thrilled with the idea his foot slipped of the pedal or he too was fed up…
- Alonso….well he’s Alonso..he’s a waste of words in my opinion
- Stefano Dominicale, it seems to me he has an urge to replicate the ruthlessness of Jean Todt, without having the balls to go with it.
- Fabio Briatore, Machiavelli…it just takes one breath to finish this sentence. I reckon he’s the missing link, the one everyone overlooked….
Worst of it all, I can’t blame Ferrari as a team, I do think Alonso is their best chance this year, alas. But the blame of the controvesy falls on Smedley and Massa.
Oh and the sentimental thought of Massa’s near death anniversary…it’s a big boys game.
final point…let’s stop dwelling in the past, the books have been closed on those years…it’s here and now we should worry about. I’m looking forward to the WMSC decision
Alex
Unfortunately the world is full of anglosaxon hooligans, including their media, they don’t realize that the empire disappeared long time ago.
Guys please stop the bullshit, the rest of the world knows you are bias, most of the english press is shitting in their pants cause they are afraid of him….. yes in the last poll among F1 drivers he was chosen as the best from more than 60% of the drivers, surprise surprise it wasn’t the the “caribbean anglosaxon” uhmmm what is going on??? “there must something the british motor sports mafia can do, ok lets ask, Charlie Whitning or Ron (he is not there anymore) or Max (he is not either) what can do they about it, maybe a drive through at every race, give him a sanction, reduce the power in his engine ahh they cant this time he drives for ferrari not maclaren”.
Best
G
G
I have rarely read so much bullshit in such a short space.
I believe Ferrari misjudged badly – for two reasons:
1. For many, sport is about having heroes. There’s plenty of scope for unwarranted idealization in that fact, but it’s also part of the passion and romanticism which a fan brings. Ferrari’s actions held up a scornful middle-finger to those feelings – not just in the team orders but in the contemptible manner they dissembled afterwards (Alonso and Smedley!). What they seem blind to is that it’s the romance of sport which sponsors buy into and which the very Ferrari brand is partly sustained by – childhood dreams and heroic ideals. Massa’s victory a year on from his accident would have answered to those passions, would have been a genuinely sporting achievement, and would have capped a widely celebrated and admired Ferrari 1-2. Instead Ferrari opted to sacrifice all that, and also leave a majority of fans indignant, for the sake of seven mid-season points for Alsonso.
2. The ‘fudged’ arrangement – where team orders were banned but could still be implemented indirectly – actually worked OK for both teams and fans. In a sense it was a truely ‘sporting’ arrangement, regulated and sustained by self-imposed reasonableness and fairness. All it takes to break such admirable concord is for one party to step away from those principles. Hence the indignation with Ferrari which so many fans and insiders share.
I just wish Massa had simply radioed back ‘Well he can’t be that much faster because he’s still behind me…’ I’d have loved to see him win.
As much as I deeply love F1 and racing in general, I cannot fathom the level of vitriol and xenophobic, nationalistic furor that accompanies this sport. I’m an American and, from what I have observed, the English-speaking press treats Alonso no more, or less, fairly than anyone else. There isn’t even a suggestion, from what I’ve read (i.e., the BBC, James Allen, Joe Saward etc) that national interests play a part. It’s a stupid and narrow-minded approach, usually relied upon by those who are not able to muster rational, reasoned arguments and instead must use emotion and passion as their currency.
Thanks Joe that is exactly the way we feel when we have to listen to all the bullshit you guys write everyweek. Best Regards.
G
PS: by the way all the above are, poll statistics among driver, Charlie bias approach as well as the manipulation of the engine in 2007 are proven facts bro.
Thanks Joe that is exactly the way we feel when we have to listen to all the bullshit you guys write everyweek. Best Regards.
G
PS: by the way all the above are, drivers poll, Charlie bias approach as well as the manipulation of the engine in 2007 are proven facts bro. It is not about the short term is about the long term we ll see what happens in 6 or 7 years patience patience maybe I ll be right maybe you will ……….
G
And maybe you will very wrong…
Good post, Joe. I was lucky enough to attend the Spanish GP in 09 and the vitriol STILL being directed toward Lewis was astonishing. Everytime anything to do with Lewis was happening, the booing was deafening. We expected some hostility, but two years after ?
It seems that the spanish F1 fans still have a chip on their shoulder as does their hero, regarding Mr Hamilton.
Joe, I find it hard to believe that you joined the crowd moaning about team orders. It’s not like you started watching F1 2 weeks ago or something.
The only thing that Ferrari have done different to what others do all the time is making it too obvious. Hence bad publicity, hence the bill from FIA. Fair enough.
F1 is a team sport. Team orders banned or not occur every season. Championships are mostly won by teams applying team strategy. Both drivers are employed by the same team and therefore will race in the fashion that will benefit the team. That includes trying to win both titles.
Wherever anyone mentions ‘team orders’ the known ‘cheating German’ springs to mind. But what about legends like Fangio? Back then team orders used include things like “pit now! We need your car for the driver that’s faster… than… you…”
Somehow I don’t remember anyone mentioning how the Fangio fans ‘felt cheated’.
There are team orders in motor racing. That’s how life works. Banning team orders is first of all stupid, and also impossible to police.
Also the ‘Alonso is a whiner’ topic is being overused. It was fair to say that in relation to the BritishGP issue, but in this case the drivers have very little to do with the situation. Meanwhile the general public keeps talking about how Alonso’s whining made Massa yield. If that’s not mass idiocy then I don’t know what is.
note: I’m not a fan of F. Alonso. Far from it.
I’d love to hear you reflect on this in the next ‘Aside with Joe’ by sidepodcast.
Cheers.
[...] Where Ferrari really went wrong It seems that the team orders controversy is going on and on and people are simply becoming more and more vehement. I [...] [...]
G forgot to take his medications today…
There’s an old saying on Internet Bulletin boards Joe: Do not feed the trolls (such as G).
Some people are just not open to rational discussion. 100% agree on your original post, and this is being reiterated in all the comments on the sites I read: the problem is not the idea that the team comes first, it’s that Fernando comes first when he had only a marginal advantage over Felipe. There’s no problem with a driver giving way to his team-mate when the team-mate has demonstrated superiority or when the first driver is out of contention, either in the given race, or in the championship. But most fans intensely dislike the idea of a team depriving a very good driver of his bite at the cherry.
As an Irishwoman btw, I just love the sound of the Caribbean Anglosaxon. Can’t wait for that one to show up on the census form.
Ferrari have the arrogance to do what they want because they believe Ferrari are bigger than the sport.
This is a natural way to behave when the governing body of the sport have told them this is the case. This is the only sport in the world where this has happened and its about time Ferrari got off their high horses and treated the sport and the fans with respect.
F1 has to get its act together, I don’t want to watch a one make series.
The only thing more dislikable than Alonso at the moment, is Alonso’s fans.
until you start to critize british teams or drivers in the sameway (like when they got past the safety car on track), complains coming from british media are just empty fuss.
akat, until you learn that it isn’t just the british and their media that is saying this, you’ll continue to look stupid in a public forum for continuing to assert that it is so.
Joe
I’ll comment once again, because people say its over – its not.
What has happened here, is surprising reaction to some of a backlash against the British Press and perhaps the British Fans. And declaring it over, is like Al Gore saying the debate is over about global warming – neither is.
The fact of the matter is, a lot of race fans cannot stand a) the bias view of things and b) (here comes the really contriversal part) Lewis Hamilton. In fact they dislike him much more than most of us did Schumacher when he was at his prime. And the British Press supports him the same as the German media supported Schumacher (which was bad as well).
Here is the opinion of a lot of people. Hamilton is a very good driver who is also a spoiled brat, and half of the people are affraid to say anything against him because then they will be labled a racist (see current amaerican politics).
So when there is an attack on Alonso, a lot of us go – wait a minute – isn’t this the same people who defend Hamilton and think anything he does is – well – devine.
And its one thing for the fans to think one thing about their drivers, its another thing for the dominate press to say so – and more important think so.
Now lets race
Hamilton was penalised and accepted the penalty. Alonso tried to achieve the same thing by overtaking Kubica on the grass at Silverstone and not giving the position back. He hoped that by the time the stewards issued a penalty he would have gained enough time to make it better to accept the penalty than stay behind Kubica. He was unlucky that the safety car came out before he could serve the penalty.
G,
Where is the evidence of engine manipulation? I have never seen any evidence.
You say Whiting is biased. He was the person who found the ‘evidence’ that McLaren got the huge fine for. Just as well he is biased towards the British team or the fine could have been billions
Wow, heated discussions.
It’s a sport fellas, let’s all be friends hey?
As a 30+ year fan of F1, I’m going to have “agree to disagree” with you re: the British press and racing. It’s always been a little skewed (and sometimes a lot…) toward the Brits and away from everyone else (like that bloody kraut fellow who won all those championships, and “the Spaniard” and all the other non-brits who’ve won). Sorry to say, there has always been a bit of double standard – for “our Nige”, Damon (not as good as his dad – even with a world championship. That Williams car was unbeatable – ask Jacques, the other beneficiary of that car’s prowess), Coulthard (no championship, some, like me, would say overrated), Button, and of course Lewis, who was pretty much crowned before he’d even driven the car. But don’t get me wrong, I can understand how the British could still think “the sun hasn’t set”, it was a pretty big empire you guys had… and so ya, the British press still has that “aroma” about them. Course some of us think it smells like something else after so long… As for team orders – don’t make me laugh. They’ve always been a part of F1, and regardless of relatively toothless rules, they always will be. And there are many past champions who can thank their team orders for their victories (and probably their championship). It’s crazy, it’s frustrating, it’s raw, it’s unbelievable, it’s exciting… hey, it’s F1, don’t you love it?
It seems still space to considerations of that episode, in this post, of course. So:
Just heard a story by a german site that the order we all heard on TV transmission was the third of the kind given to Massa in that afternoon.
Well, it doesnt justify the team’s attitude, but explains, at least for me, Alonso´s reaction on radio, the emphasis by pitwall if Massa had understood the message (by the way, I still think was someone italian, not Smedley who communicate that) and somehow the uninteligibility of post race declarations by all involved.
just to lighten the mood a little bit, hopefully, a few things heard on blogs in BR:
– Felipe “Massa de modelar” (= modeling clay)
– “Don Alonso das Lamúrias” ( lamúrias = portuguese for whimpers)
- and this healthy guy who claimed made a transfer from his account in the Santander to Banco do Brasil, of the same amount of the fine was applied to the Scuderia.
wish you a nice working weekend Joe.
my bad
please read wealthy instead of healthy
(well, in Brazil one thing implies the other, but clearly I made a silly mistake)