I know that many readers think that I am overly supportive of Tony Fernandes. I have explained why in great detail in previous blog items and in replies to comments. To save you having to dig that out, I will paraphrase a little. Tony is a businessman. A very good one. He saw an opportunity in Lotus and he took it. He convinced Proton’s management to grant him a five-year licence to use the Lotus name in Formula 1. His goal was to use success in racing to revive the moribund Lotus brand and then reverse that success back into buying the car company. Fernandes is a race fan and understood that Lotus is a valuable brand – a company with a history of legends, but which has suffered in recent years under the management of Proton, which is not the most dynamic car company in the history of the world. Proton has a record of failing to make the most of what it has, notably in relation to the motorcycle company MV Agusta, which it acquired for €70 million in 2005. A year later Proton gave up on the idea of reviving the brand and sold the business to the Genoa-based finance company GEVI for one Euro, on the basis that GEVI would buy the debts of €107 million as well. A few months later GEVI sold MV Agusta subsidiary Husqvarna motorcycles to BMW for €93 million, which set the company on course for success again, and led to speculation that Proton might have done a better job…
Anyway, having sorted out an F1 entry and a licence to use the Lotus name, Fernandes went about reviving the Lotus name with sensitivity and sound logic. He picked the right place for the factory, chose the right kind of people to run the show and used the right car designation. He also had the Chapman Family support. These were all very intelligent moves. There are no harsher critics than the F1 media and Fernandes carefully won them over – and with them came the fans.
If you ever have the opportunity to meet the man, you will understand. He is passionate, in the finest traditions of Formula 1 team bosses before they became either sleazy or overly corporate. He is a man who is larger than life; a born leader; and a man who is truly enthusiastic about the sport. That is just my opinion, but when I ask around what people think, I get the same answer. I was having a conversation recently with a team boss and we agreed that the greatest skill that someone in his position can have is that the staff would jump off a cliff if he asked them to do it. The Lotus people would do that, just as the folk at Williams would do it for FW and the people at Ferrari would do it, full stop. Frank is actually one of Tony’s biggest fans, having had him as a sponsor for some years. He is an impressive businessman who has achieved a great deal, not least building a vast airline that actually makes money, but also an empire based on the same basic principle of giving the new middle classes in Asia the opportunity to do things that they could not do before: own a mobile phone; take a cheap flight; stay in a sensibly priced hotel and have their own credit card. No, he’s not philanthropic in this respect, he’s making money, but he is also developing his country. And it is not just me who rates him highly. Forbes just named him Asian Businessman of the Year, which is no small achievement.
In the last few days I have read a great deal from Group Lotus and others about Fernandes being a bad guy. And I long ago learned that one needs to always consider the source before getting upset about what they say. Dany Bahar is a man who I have heard NOTHING good about. I had not thought of it before now, but the best I have heard people say is that he is a good presenter. He talks a good game. All the other feedback I have ever heard from anyone has been negative. And I cannot list his achievements because there do not seem to be very many of them. He goes from one job to the next and never seems to leave people happy.
Why are so many team owners opposed to helping him at all in F1?
Why are there rumours that one of his former employers is about to commence legal action against him? That does, of course, bring me to the question of why the Malaysians trusted him when they gave him control of Lotus. I understand that now they may be having second thoughts, because his business plan is way too good to be true, and it is all costing a great deal of money, and there is a risk that the money will run out before anyone starts buying Lotuses. But what can they do? Can they accept they made a mistake and fire him?
No, people in politics and business rarely like to say “I made a mistake”. It is not good for their image.
Bahar told some media the other day that Fernandes is asking too much money in settlement. Fernandes says that there was no offer. There were certainly discussions, but if there was no offer, there was no offer and it really does not matter what Bahar thinks about the price. He can ignore Fernandes as much as he likes – and say that Renault sponsorship in F1 was a third the price of settling with Fernandes – but if Group Lotus loses the lawsuit, Bahar will have his trousers around his ankles. It would undoubtedly be wiser to try to find a settlement – which is something that Fernandes is smart enough to have suggested.
Gérard Lopez and Eric Boullier have joined in the attacks on Fernandes. I am not surprised by Lopez. Initially I was impressed. He sounded like an intelligent guy, but it turned out that all his marketing blah-blah-blah was just that. He wants to use F1 to create a B2B market, which will create billions of dollars of business and he will get a slice of the pie for inviting one lot to talk to the other lot. Brilliant.
McLaren has been doing that for 20 years.
Got any new ideas, Mr Lopez? When he makes some money I will be impressed. So far I am not – and obviously Renault was not impressed either…
I must say that I was surprised to see Eric Boullier being so openly critical of Fernandes. I like Boullier and I think he has done a decent job so far, but to say that Fernandes has fooled the fans is outrageous. But I guess one dances to the tune that the bosses dictate… which, Eric, is why it is best to be the boss and not simply working for those who think they know all the answers…
The whole Lotus thing will be settled in the courts. I am not a lawyer but I believe, based on the evidence that exists, that Fernandes will win. I don’t like to see a good guy being bullied by people who have proved nothing… Time will tell.
Thank you Joe, for this no bullshit plain-talking post. But why does Fernandes want to settle and give up his rights to use the “Team Lotus” name? I read elsewhere that Mr. Hunt (David?) has been felt cheated by Fernandes, who got the name Team Lotus from him, and it seems like if he settles, it gives that name directly to the evil Group Lotus.
Thanks for speaking out loud Joe. Tony is a good guy but I am a bit worried as to how all of this is going to end up…
For sure Lotus Cars has the right to build a Lotus chassis in the future, so what is Tony going to do ? Rename his own chassis Team Lotus or what else ?
I wish all the best to Team Lotus and I keep my fingers crossed…
Joe
Totally agree. The Boulier comments have come as a surprise – otherwise, it appears some kind of smear campaign against Fernandez. If Fernandez owns the rights to use the Team Lotus in F1 (and Group Lotus are well aware of this) why all the Group Lotus negative press?
And, as someone not aware of Bahar prior to these ‘issues’, he’s not come across as someone you’d like to have stood behind you in the trenches…
Kind regards
Martin
Great article, which I think perfectly sums up the feelings of a lot of F1 fans. I really hope Tony comes out of this well, could get nasty.
Here, here!
Tony Fernandes seems to me to be the ideal custodian of the Lotus brand. When Colin Chapman died it lost a little of its sheen but in the past year Fernandes (and his team) have created a progressive, entrepreneurial and ambitious organization. Bahar’s Lotus looks like a gimmic.
In short, Dany Bahar can ‘do one’.
Nice Piece, thanks. I note that there has been no word from Clive Chapman throughout this sorry saga. I’m sure every rag on the planet has tried to get something out of him and for him to keep silent is mightily impressive. I admire Clive immensely for maintaining a dignity this year. I wish that Tony would give the cap back to him for safe keeping until it’s all sorted out.
Joe. That is the single most enjoyable F1 article I have ever read. I find that blatant honesty is truly enjoyable and uplifting. Thanks.
Tony Fernandes against Dany Bahar. There’s only one way to sort this out… FIGHT!!!
I don’t count you as a Fernandes supporter – I count you as an honest reporter.
A year ago today I knew nothing about Tony Fernandes but everything I had heard was positive.
Today I know nothing about Danny Bahar but everything I’m hearing sounds negative.
In a year from today I suspect the negativity I’m hearing about Bahar will be proven to be true as it’s the same people that were saying great things about Fernandes, including you, that turned out to be completely accurate. He’s proven to me that he’s a racer, a great business man and someone that respects the Lotus heritage – I wonder how many times Danny Bahar has met the Chapman family?
Rooting 100% for Fernandes and Rottie to win in court. Do you have any idea of the timetable for the case?
Couldn’t agree more, bravo and merry Christmas, thanks for a great blog Joe
Interesting blog as always Joe. For me, this is a classic head vs heart scenario. My head tells me that Tony F is a businessman looking to make money off the Team Lotus brand and that Group Lotus is the car company bringing Lotus back to F1.
However my heart tells me that Tony is a great guy and his F1 team have done an outstanding job and are doing full justice the history of Team Lotus. And that Bahar is a bit of a ” jackass” who has tried to bully his way to success without putting in any hard work.
I was fully behind the Tony and Lotus Racing until I considered where my loyalties would lie if I was driving a lotus road car. And unfortunately I haven’t got any further. Good luck to Tony and Team Lotus, but for Group Lotus’ sake I also hope Bahar doesn’t fall flat on his face despite my desire that it would happen.
Dave Green,
Who drives a Lotus road car these days?
An excellent piece Joe. I was initially very sceptical of this “new Lotus” coming to the grid when it was announced & thought that it was just another bit of cynical marketing hoo-ha! However, seeing the passion that seems to ooze from every member of the team has been a refreshing addition to the season. The passion Tony shows for the team & his dedication to respecting the name with which he raced has also been impressive. To say he is passionate in what he does & believes is an understatement. As team bosses go, I don’t think we’ve seen someone as charismatic in many a year. You can tell he loves the sport & his team whenever a camera is put in front of him.
This whole sorry situation with Group Lotus is sad indeed & rather than soiling the Lotus brand, I think TF & all at Lotus Racing have done an excellent job in bringing a great name back into the public eye. If anyone is responsible for dragging the name through the mud, it’s got to be Bahar & his little sidekicks! Surely they can’t be so arrogant that they can’t see the damage they are doing? I for one will not be buying a new Lotus any time soon, that’s for sure. If there is such a thing as karma, it’ll show itself in Tony’s Lotus resoundly beating Group Lotus/Renault next season & Proton finally deciding to jettison Lotus from their portfolio only for Fernandes to buy it & making the first point of order to fire that little weasel Bahar!! Ahhh…. justice!
Joe, this is why I like your column. It’s hard finding a journo with integrity these days, and even harder finding one who is willing to stick up for something they believe in, but here you’ve done both.
It seems that Proton saw Tony’s F1 success and thought “We could have done that” which became “We deserve to have done that”
Factor in that having proton take over Renault will mean a great deal of changes in staff, direction and management style, and they could drop off. With Tony’s Lotus team (Perhaps we should refer to it as “Totus” for sake of ease?) using RBR gearboxes and Renault engines, they could prove to be more than a match for Team Lotus-Renault-Bahar-Malaysia-Super-GP-with-A-Cherry-On-Top.
As embarrassed as they are now, imagine how much more harm it’d do them if their F1 team sucked so bad that HRT (in their 2011 form, whatever that may be) beat them.
Bahar seems to be just another soul-less parasite, all promises and power words with no substance or passion for anything but himself.
Bring on 2011 already!
As I have posted on James Allen’s site, I reckon that Tony will own Lotus Group International Ltd (The owners of Group Lotus plc) within 5 years. Unless Bahar has bankrupted them before that proton’s patience is exhausted and the total Lotus Group assets are less than the debts, in which case he could buy them for £1. (which I offer to pay Tony)
rpaco,
Thank you that promo for JA’s website. Don’t forget to mention next time you post there that you have posted things on my blog…
Good strike Joe, this will surely not end well and I suspect it will be Proton who finish up with the expensive mess. I’ve not yet met Tony, but I’m inclined to trust your judgement.
In my experience the righteous party are rarely the ones who start throwing mud around – Fernandes, Gascoyne and the rest of Team Lotus have remained balanced and dignified throughout this whole sordid episode, and deserve our respect for that.
I had the pleasure of meeting Tony Fernandes at Snetterton during the Lotus Festival this year, and one on one, with no press or anyone else present, the fierce drive and love he had for the Lotus brand was plain to see. This is why Lotus Racing/Team Lotus has won the fans. Everyone, top down, has that same drive and respect for the heritage.
I’ve had a very blessed year and got to watch a GP sat on a sofa next to Hazel and Clive Chapman, in the clubhouse at Hethel, (Before Bahar). Their backing for the TF backed effort was also plain to see.
I just hope that Proton, and/or the High Court see sense and deal with it soon, and that the proceedings can be expedited. This is doing no good to anyone.
I own an Elise, I live in Norfolk, I love and follow the Lotus brand.
I have no faith in what Bahar is doing with the brand, I have enormous respect for what Tony Fernandes has achieved, and will achieve in the future.
Lets get it sorted.
here here Joe. Great article/post. Bahar leaves an impression of exactly what you described. A salesman rather than an actual acheiver. Fernandes is a very clever man, and from interviews ive seen, he appears a very genuine and passionate man, with a kooky side.
perfect man to be involved in F1.
p.s. im getting Saboteurs for Xmas. cant wait to read it, then watch it on the big screen. eventually.
Hello Joe,
Long time and daily french reader, but this is my first post.
I 100% agree with ALL of your thoughts.
Thanks for honestly writing what you think.
I do not have any idea of who’ll win this messy, boring and ridiculous Lotus situation. But it’s always funny to see how people are still abused by “good presenters” (in french we say “beau-parleur” !).
I’m not impressed at all by Lopez too, and I’ve never been. People who are suddenly coming out from nowhere, do usually disappear as fast as they appeared. They don’t last. Same in every business.
Lopez a good business man? Really? What has he really achieved except playing with huge amount of money to make profits? There are thousands of sales people who’d be able to do it. I might be wrong but I think Renault was very happy to find a “pigeon” to pay a decent price for its F1 team (they had to sell it because of the worldwide turnover and because they could not keep on spending millions on one hand when in the other one they got money form the government… the Singapour Gate was just the pretext to do it. Now Renault has clear hands to cut jobs in the factories…).
How could people think Bahar plans is gonna be successfull? How could such a small company as Proton, spend so much mony in several motorsport activities? Where will the money come from? wxon’t the investors and the banks ask for profit some time? This is ridiculous and non sens.
Lopez and Bahar are the same, that’s why they get married now. They are just blabla and blabla… and Boullier seems just to be an applied schoolboy, but not so smart
Thanks for your post and sorry for my potential english language mistakes.
Either your trying to get on Tony’s payroll or to propose to him, because you display ridiculous level of partiality Joe. Sad.
Cyclops,
Try opening both eyes – and both ears. You do not understand what a blog is. You are also rude.
Fernandes (his pepople, his propaganda) was attacing Lotus Group and Bahar long enough. And now, when they want to strike back, what a lament and clamour!
Fernandes’ rights to Lotus brand were under Lotus(cars) license. Lotus brand is property of Lotus Group not Fernandes’ and they can do what they want.
License breached? Ok, so claim for demages and get off Lotus’ name.
But of course for the love and caring of Lotus brand he’s bought Team Lotus’ dead body and now he is “real Lotus”. A Knight of Camelot, Heir of Chapman’s Cap, Defender of the Legacy, Guardian of Team’s Spirit and Values (against devil himself)
and who is the devil? read post above.
If someone destroys Lotus brand here, Fernandes is his name.
What? I only “express alternative opinions” without “unpleasant and abusive language”. An irony isn’t mentioned in “What” section.
Sy,
Let us make this nice and simple. You buy a chicken. You want to have it for lunch. Someone comes along and tries to steal the chicken because he says it looks like his chicken. You hand it over without a fight?
Fully agree with you, Joe. Tony seemingly hasn’t put a foot wrong; good on him!
Joe,
Do you really think this will result in a High Court Judgment? No Way! Maybe the best thing to come out of this will be TF getting Group Lotus on the cheap, which had to be his plan all along.
[...] from a group of people. It has annoyed me. It’s a little bit of bully-boy tactics.”In defence of Tony Fernandes (again) (Joe Saward)“In the last few days I have read a great deal from Group Lotus and others about Fernandes [...]
This is brilliant stuff. Finally someone from the british media who didn’t sell its soul in an expensive dinner or lunch or whatever had the guts to say the truth.
You’re the man in the UK F1 media, Joe.
Joe,
It is commentary such is this that, in my mind, places you via this blog as the preeminent source of F1 news.
The background information, whether it be of a financial, historical or personal nature that you give to current topics of interest in the F1 world never fails to astound me and more importantly show the truth behind a headline.
Keep up the good work, your as much a legend to myself as is anyone in the F1 world.
OK. So let’s get him sanctified, right now!
Honestly, I have never read such one sided piece of journalism regarding sports matters. You crossed the boundary between supporting one side based on facts and blind, blatant, almost sponsored-like favoritism.
List of your major crimes against objectivity:
- You didn’t care to point out that both parties have ultimately the same business goal – selling Lotus road cars supported by racing marketing vehicle such as F1 team, and that the Lotus Cars company has full rights to do so on their own, no matter how disappointed Tony is. He smelled the chance for another business coup (much like his AirAsia) but he didn’t expect that Proton will find someone to execute the F1 team idea on their own. A decent character, just like the one you present Tony to be, would get over it and find something else for himself. Tony didn’t
- Tony said they tried to keep low profile after Renault-Group Lotus announced. Tony’s and Gascoyne’s twitter showed rather unpleasant, bitter and childish comments. Bahar and co on the other hand started with wishing luck to Tony and showed respect towards him. That’s it for your “good guy being bullied”
- You consequently omit the fact that Lotus Racing’s only connection with Lotus is only the purchased name, and one year ago It wasn’t even thought to be Lotus in near future, that it was registered as 1Malaysia and Tony himself declared continuity with Team Lotus heritage on the basis of license purchased from Proton.
- You’re also missing the fact, that as legitimate Lotus Cars brand, Bahar has FOR SURE the right to use Lotus image. And I’m specifically referring to the Lotus company created by Chapman, not the Lotus racing team to which Bahar declares NO ASSOCIATION every time he’s asked about it. The only question here is whether Tony is eligible for such use. So Bahar’s Lotus will surely be Lotus, only Tony’s is risking name change.
All of this mess was created because Tony couldn’t live with the fact, that Proton wished to execute the same idea he had but with other people. It’s Tony who doesn’t respect the right of Group Lotus to do so. It’s Group Lotus right to choose the entity to work with, everybody would agree it’s better to cooperate with an established team with a star driver and capacity to fight for the top spot.
Tony many times has expressed that Lotus is a marketing vehicle for him, even recently he said he would like to use Lotus to promote other brands. So where’s that “all about racing”, “continuer of Chapman’s spirit” all-decent and fair white knight you’re talking about?
Acuna,
You buy a chicken. You want to have it for lunch. Someone tries to steal your chicken because they say it looks like their chicken. What do you do? Give it to them? That would make you an idiot, wouldn’t it? Yes, I am pissed off at you. This is a blog If you do not understand what a blog is then I suggest you read the What? section at the top of the page. Why is it so hard for people to understand the difference between a blog and journalism?
I for one, am totally with you. As a matter of fact, I have been playing the F1 2010 game and I chose to race in a Lotus alongside Jarno Trulli. I am currently leading the championship, in a Lotus.
I really thought everything Fernandes was doing was a win-win for Proton. The team did well in it’s first season. They got a lot of fans. It promoted the Lotus name (both F1 and road) and Proton could just sit back and watch it happen. I was on the fence regarding the Lotus F1 team at first, but the more I read about this whole Bahar debacle, the more I stand firmly in the Lotus Racing camp. At what point will the Proton bosses realize that Bahar is doing his best to completely unravel the whole thing, and bankrupt them in the process.
And now Bahar is bragging that Lotus is going to need a better engine than the current Toyota unit, so they’ll build their own V8 and a V6. Wow, that’s a lot of trash talk from a guy with no track record of success. Boggles the mind.
Don’t beat around the bush Joe. Speak your mind!
Unfortunately, I have a feeling that the courts will find that Group Lotus have the right to attach it’s name to a team as a sponsor and that 1Malaysia have the right to use the Team Lotus brand.
There is no law which imposes common sense.
John Robinson,
…except the rule that already exists…
Was with you for the first part, Tony Fernandes is very impressive. But the bitterness you show in your slagging (I think that’s an accurate description) of his opponents makes me wonder.
Richard Hunt,
Wonder away, I simply write as I find…
Its quite unimaginable that anyone would’ve bought into that business plan, or to have the guts (or idiocy) come up with it in the first place for that matter. Now that Renault has bailed (hope they’re getting paid up front …. ), I wonder if Kubica has a clause that might allow him to jump to replace Massa’s brother in the red car ?
Can never be too hard on Dr Evil and the dark forces at Proton…
A good analysis. In 3 years time which team will still be around? The Proton based team or Tony’s team – whatever it is called by then?
My money is on Tony. I fear that the plans for Group Lotus are a money pit which could bring down the car company – again.
Another Bahar Hatchet Job????
Here’s that evil man Bahar, back in November, saying it’s up to the shareholders in Malaysia. It’s out of his hands, but he thinks they’ll reach an understanding. He said the same thing the other day.
So, if TF has a problem, it appears to be with the folks back in Malaysia. He wants great flipping wads of $$$ to stop the stink, and they don’t wanna pay that much.
I also find it funny as hell, that you’re complaining about Proton stupidly selling a Co. for $1, when that’s exactly how TF got AA. I suppose the Malaysian government wasn’t stupid to sell to Tony though.
Back here: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/team-lotus-group-lotus-and-some-legal-expressions/
it was “Tony has powerful friends, so it would be smart for Bahar not to rock the boat.”
It appears those are Bahar’s friends now, though. So, shouldn’t you advise Tony to stop rocking the boat???
Whatever.
jim,
Yes, whatever…
Joe, as a Lotus fan of over 30 years, recent developments have left me screaming with frustration. I often feel like the little boy in ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’, so it’s a welcome relief to read your comments.
I can’t believe that Bahar’s ‘plans’ for Group Lotus will end in anything other than disaster. When they do, I truly hope that Tony Fernandes will be there to pick up the pieces.
Fernandes has, for whatever reasons, played his relaunch of Lotus in F1 in exactly the right way. He spotted the opening; has the passion and a proper respect for Team Lotus’s heritage; has gone about building the team in a dignified and professional manner; and has deservedly built up a strong fan base in his first season.
On the other hand, the arrogance and blatant bullying displayed by senior members of Group Lotus and Renault F1 beggars belief. It is only a shame that Bahar seems able to ‘talk the talk’ and as such is getting much more serious media attention than his preposterous plans for Lotus warrant for anything other than comic value. Nothing he has promised or proposed has any link whatsoever to the real Lotus, much beloved by many the world over, and surely cannot be perceived as anything other than the insane ranting of a man with an ego the size of a continent! He really doesn’t have the least idea…
I truly hope that Fernandes ends up the winner here, and that Bahar is sent back to wherever it is he belongs as quickly as possible, before he manages to drag the great name of Lotus any further through the mud.
Keep up the good work Joe, your insightful and unblinkered reporting is much appreciated.
as a banker & someone who is close to making deals i can say Tony’s approach was wrong from the start… there was no way he & lotus group would have happy ending…
Dev,
Maybe Forbes will recognise your abilities one day…
Oh dear. I’m sorry for Boullier. Looks to me like he’s been paid off to be the sacrificial lamb. Not saying that’s true, but rotten things happen when no-one checks out the paymaster. Just sad, Boullier looks to be such a nice lad.
Interesting to see Bahar complaining about the *price*.
OH, Darling, we know you now Bahar.
We all know it only takes one proverbial apple.
The good thing is I think this will get cleaned up. You just can’t take the mickey out of people who care, not for very long.
I am totally behind everything Joe said here. Heart and all.
– john
Just a personal observation for Joe,
“people in politics and business rarely like to say “I made a mistake”. It is not good for their image.”
Saying “i screwed up” is very good in my book.
Then, i want to know how someone knew they screwed up.
Politicians etc do not do this well, because they are almost always forced. So they don’t then really know how bad it got.
So, what’s a virtue for regular guys, is oddly a death knell for people who want to trick the public.
Might be this same idea explains why Luca has to wait a bit to sort out his country.
– j
I’m a Malaysian and a avid follower of these whole controversy behind Lotus. I’m in joy the moment Lotus is back moreover will be headed by Malaysians, even better with the hands of Tony Fernandes, who is a very respectful figure here.
You can see from our popular local automotive blog post at http://paultan.org/2010/12/16/bahar-renault-f1-deal-cost-one-third-of-what-tony-asked/ and many Mysias were hostile towards TF behind the local airport scandal. Initially i felt TF might take this chance to promote his Air Asia & Tune Group businesses and perhaps ultimately selling the team to the highest bidder. I did recalled 1 year ago he thought his role as the team manager is temporary and will pass to someone else.
Looks like 1 year forward and 70million pounds spent from his own pocket (that a huge sum , approx almost 500 million Ringgit) indicates he can’t turn back now. Its either now or never.
I was skeptical towards Dany Bahar at first due to his ambitious but very risky plans to develop Group Lotus via getting funding from Proton and the Mysian Gov. The whole worst case scenario was if this fails (they are chances it will), DB will obtain bailout money from Mysia’s taxes payers. The majority of Mysias are unhappy with the current gov and if that happen for sure it will spell political suicide to the current gov. Well that is 5 years later to look at.
However on DB interview made clear that he is a reasonable person and would develop many things in long term. Also improvement plans on Lotus is started to take shape, with claims from DB that they have solid orders on the Lotus Exos, the Evora GT3/GT4 and so on. The new Esprit also create some excitement as well.
Still, I wont be siding either one, although in a preferable scenario, I hope both of them can work together for the benefit of Lotus and Mysia as well, although I hardly see this happening. Both men are still businessman at heart. Let see how it goes in 2011 and beyond.
Dany Bahar does not have control of Proton… He is the head of Lotus not Proton.
Harvey,
You are right. That was a slip of the brain. Now corrected…
Well said, Joe. IMHO the revival of Lotus has been a good news story. I think I am not alone in that although I am a fan of other teams, I want to see Lotus succeed. And Fernandes is obviously a good bloke with his head and heart in the right place. The whole Group Lotus thing feels like someone is trying to spoil the party.
I’m glad someone other than me has seen through Lopez! From day one I wondered what was so amazing about his so-called ‘business model’ in F1. Similarly, Virgin’s ‘business model’ is fundamentally flawed. At least Lopez invests his money in fast cars and doesn’t make any bones about living a playboy lifestyle. The problem with these internet guru guys is that they are credited with real commercial intelligence when in a lot of the cases, their success is due more to the coincidence of being in the right place at the right time. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t necessarily suggest a genuine ability to become an ongoingly successful and innovative entrepreneur.
As a marketing professional, Bahar is an embarrassment. He fits the ‘flash suit, nice haircut, motormouth’ stereotype so well and his almost wilful ignorance and after-the-fact revision of events is typical of all that is bad about marketing, and if he is a good presenter then he is only one tiny part there toward making up that deficit.
Great Post Joe, tnx for it…I’ve never known about the lisence for using Lotus name in the sport!
Imho Fernandes has done all the donkey-job to make a return for Lotus name to F1.He lowered teh expectations of fans about Lotus, tested if the name is still so popular out there and then suddenly Lotus company comes outta nowhere to go the reminder of way.
If they were really interested about a return to F1, why didn’t they enter in 2009 or never started to find a way for buying Team Lotus name too?
I believe some damages is done to Lotus name and Proton-Lotus company is responsible for this.
Have to say that I started out as a TF supporter but the more I read……
TF needs to realise the huge difference between ownership of something as opposed to a licence.
Sy & Acuna seem to sum matters up rather well although I agree with Joe re the blog etc.
Methinks it’s a mess ……..
Kevin Hawkins,
Owning a pile of rubble is not much use to anyone…
First of all .. I’m malaysian same like TF .. Recent situation with all the negative comments just unreasonable at all ..lotus racing was backed by the malaysian giv thru proton sponsorship .. Even the prime minister gave the company name 1malaysia F1 racing .. For what ever reason comes this evil man bahar that we didnt know he existed before … The way he talks like very convincing but did it going to be what exactly he planned … The way i see it … Just too ambitious for group lotus and Proton at the moment.. Agree with joe that proton was an epic fail carmaker in the world … The idea was great but it was never been executed in intelligent way .. Bet if we give proton to TF …. He will turn it to a brand that really2 great
Talk about getting off the fence Joe, kudos. This Lotus saga is starting to smell a little and I am starting to think that it is a bit scripted for marketing purposes, aka ‘the red bull driver war of 2010′ with the two opposing figure heads just doing a ‘Max and Bernie’. I have no evidence for this, it is just my opinion. I also do not think Dany Bahar is calling the shots at all. I would not be at all surprised if after a lot of legal talk and subsequent news, there was a miracle deal done with a synergistic outcome.
It is sad to see that Eric B has sold some of his integrity; my great concern is that some of the Lotus people are going to start calling the shots at Enstone and cock up a very good operation that has many good ingredients and – for once – stability.
The biggest winner here is Renault, they have sold the team and kept the badge. Nice.
As for the poster who is leading the F1 championship game in a Lotus, I trust that is on ‘expert’ setting otherwise it does not count. If so, bravo.
Joe, good post, and spot on from my understanding of things.
Having spent the season reading all I find on F1, and having had the opportunity to meet Tony and visit the factory at Hingham, I see a bright and genuine bloke who always wanted to own an F1 team, who saw an opportunity to do that and to potentially make a little money and promote his other brands. I think Tony is passionate about reviving the Lotus F1 brand, but I know he’s also a shrewd business man. I’ve been digging into the Tune Group and their portfolio, very interesting stuff – just the sort of guy to run an F1 team with some chance or sporting & commercial success which are surely both necessary if they want to fight their way up through the grid over a number of years. When at the factory I even met a bloke who used to build the original Lotus F1 cars.
I really hope Tony & the Team Lotus gang make it, and that they make it under the Lotus F1 banner. They’ve done everything in their power to increase their competitiveness this year. They continue to act with consistency and integrity. Dany Bahar and his extravagant plans for Group Lotus in all forms of car production and racing series is a train crash waiting to happen. The Malaysian Government may yet be selling Tony a failing company for a ringgit in 2-3 years time and asking him to turn it around as he did Air Asia.
That said, I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, including Cyclops, Sy & Acuna et al. I object when people slag off others for their opinions though, especially someone who is writing a very informative & useful blog (albeit based on your own opinions) but for free, no subscription, no salary.
I think Team Lotus know the majority of the fans (and I hope the paddock) are behind them. Good luck to them – they proved last year that they deserve it.
Excellent post, Joe. As others here have said, displays an integrity that puts most others — especially the disgraceful item that was last week’s Autosport cover — to shame.
Don’t let the so-and-so’s grind you down!
Joe
What I meant was he only ever had a licence which is entirely different from ownership. A person taking a license is always aware that it may end , that’s the nature of the beast , whereas ownership gives control.
Ps …Autocourse arrived this morn , but will we get final GP before Xmas as an Yuletide read ?
Seasons greetings to you Joe
Thanks for the post Joe – as someone following F1 from a distance it’s good to have your insight. I’ve always felt Fernandes had done things the right way with Lotus Racing so hope he wins the court case and Bahar gets his marching orders.
“His goal was to use success in racing to revive the moribund Lotus brand and then reverse that success back into buying the car company.”
Why would you revive a brand and THEN buy the company? Reviving the brand is presumably going to make it more valuable (and, in Group Lotus case, increase sales of its cars) which would mean that he would end up paying more for the company when he came to buy it? So, he would pay for the F1 team that would revive the Lotus brand, which he would then have to pay more to acquire?
Why not just buy Group Lotus at the beginning, revive the brand and reap the rewards?
It fails the Occam’s Razor test.
In fact, Fernandes himself suggested that “Lotus will probably buy into the team at some stage.” (Source: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/12/10274.html )
Did Tony Fernandes pick “the right place” for the factor or did Mike Gascoyne pick someplace down the road from where he lives?
As for picking the right people, I don’t see how that’s got anything to do with the Lotus brand. I don’t think that Fernandes thought to himself “You know, I WAS going to hire a bunch of IDIOTS for my F1 team but NOW that I’ve licensed the Lotus brand, I’m going to hire good, smart people instead!”
And he used the right car designation. My God, that’s extraordinary! It must have taken a real effort!
Having said all that, I think Fernandes and Gascoyne did a really good job of getting the team off the ground and I think they did a good job with the Lotus brand. I think the difference is that I don’t think that Fernandes’ motivation was respect for the brand itself. I think he handled the brand the way he did because he wanted to exploit it commercially. Besides, what else would he have done?
It would make no commercial sense whatsoever to screw around with the brand you want to use to launch energy drinks and whatnot with. With the Lotus brand, Fernandes got a huge amount of goodwill, instant brand recognition and a ready-made, pre-existing fan following (or, to put it another way, potential customers).
While we’re talking about the Lotus name, I’d like to know how it can be “sensitive” to use the Lotus name to market an energy drink? (http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file=/2010/4/5/central/5980434&sec=central)
Mahathir Mohamad has already said that, under the license, the “Lotus name was supposed to be used only for racing”. Calling the drink “LR8″ may have stuck to the letter of that agreement but it’s crystal clear that it was launched solely off the back of Lotus Racing.
What has this got to do with the matter in hand?
Well, it illustrates Fernandes’ prime motivation behind his interest in the Lotus name. Sure he wants to go racing and build a good team and keep Lotus fans happy and all that other lovely stuff. But all of that is in support of his primary objective, which is making money.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with making money. I’m not looking to demonise Fernandes. He’s an astute businessman, spotting and exploiting opportunities and doing an excellent job. He absolutely deserves kudos for Lotus Racing’s successful debut in F1.
However, he is NOT some kind of saint, reviving the Lotus name in F1 as a way of honouring Colin Chapman’s memory. He is a businessman with excellent PR skills. He spotted an opportunity to launch an F1 team with government backing (without which, by the way, his application would not have been successful) and using the Lotus brand. Good for him. It was a great opportunity. He would have been stupid to pass up on it and he did a great job of putting the team together. However, it would appear that he has abandoned the original loose partnership that came together to launch the team, broken the promises that were made in order to attract the government support (e.g. basing the team’s technical operations at Sepang, forming partnerships with Malaysian universities and companies) and used the Lotus brand for things that he wasn’t permitted to under the licence from Proton.
So Group Lotus decided that they’d be better off taking control of their own brand in F1 and, rather than buy the 1Malaysia team (Kamarudin Meranun was quoted in the Malaysian press back in September that if Proton wanted to take control of Lotus Racing, they would have to pay off the investments made by him, Fernandes and Nasimuddin, amounting to £70m) they opted to buy into Renault instead.
To me, Bahar is almost incidental to all of this. He has been hired by Proton to run Group Lotus. People keep saying that he’s achieved nothing and his strategy for Group Lotus is nothing but smoke and mirrors but they don’t suggest an alternative, either for the position or the strategy. To my mind, things seem to have worked out well for Red Bull and his experience with Ferrari can’t be a bad thing. I don’t see what his popularity or his track record or whether his plans are overly ambitious or not, has to do with whether Group Lotus is entitled to invest in the Renault team and run their cars as Lotus-Renault.
Why are so many team owners opposed to helping Dany Bahar at all in F1? I don’t know! Did he sleep with their wives and daughters? Did he call them nasty names? Did he murder their pet dogs? Please enlighten us! There are lots of malicious rumours about and attacks on Dany Bahar but no cold, hard facts.
I don’t particularly care about Bahar, to be honest. I’m more interested in seeing Group Lotus succeed as a company and if Bahar is an obstacle to that because the other F1 team principals don’t like him, then maybe they’d be better off replacing him.
I’d like to see Group Lotus become successful again. I hope their strategy works out, no matter who came up with it or who’s sitting in the CEO’s seat. I’d like to see their venture into F1 turn out to be a success and yield a lot of crossover technology between the F1 team and the road cars. I’d prefer that there only be one Lotus team in F1 so I hope the High Court rescinds the Team Lotus trademark. I think Fernandes’ acquisition of it was a cynical move and that Group Lotus have the better claim to race as Lotus. Having said that, I don’t harbour any particular ill feeling towards Fernandes and I hope that the 1Malaysia team continues to be successful but I hope that Lotus is even more successful and that, for the timebeing at least, McLaren are even MORE successful!
On the chicken analogy, I’d just like to point out that it was never Fernandes’ chicken to begin with. A year ago, he came up with the idea of opening a restaurant, specialising in omelettes. Proton had been thinking about doing the same thing because they own a chicken that’s a really good layer, so they agreed to lend Fernandes their chicken, with the condition that the eggs from the chicken could only be used for making omelettes. Fernandes got planning permission for the restaurant from the government by promising to hire locals and offer discounts to local residents
However, most fo the people Fernandes hired were foreigners and he didn’t offer any discounts to the locals. Also, he started to breed more chicks from the eggs the Proton chicken laid and started passing them off as Proton chickens.
So Proton took their chicken back and they’re now using its eggs to make their own omelettes and whatnot, which they sell through another restaurant thy’ve bought a 50% stake in. Which they’re perfectly entitled to do.
Meanwhile, Fernandes bought another chicken, the ownership of which is disputed, and he’s claiming that it’s the same as the Proton chicken.
Dodger,
They have no right to take their chicken back
PS: This talk of Fernandes buying Group Lotus reminds me of what BMW did with the Rover Group. They stripped out the Mini brand, used Land Rover’s technology and expertise to develop the X5, before selling LR to Ford, then offloaded the remains of the Group (i.e. the undesirable and unprofitable road car business) onto a bunch of corrupt and incompetent “businessmen” who drained the company of cash and eventually drove it into the ground, leaving thousands of workers without jobs.
Group Lotus is probably one of Proton’s most valuable assets. It would not serve the Proton shareholders’ interests for it to be sold (or, as some people seem to be suggesting, given) to a third party. They should hang onto it, invest in it to make it profitable once more and exploit whatever synergies they can to benefit the overall group.
very thanks good work.you are best…
Hi Joe,
It really baffles me when I read peoples comments questioning your ability to write andf yet they are the ones who do not know the difference between a blog and great journalistic skills. This is a blog people, it does exactly what it says on the tin (sorry for the marketing blurb). I must confess to agreeing entirely what you say regarding TF, I have met the man when he just signed as a sponsor for Williams. My over riding opinion of him was that he was slighltly arrogant but a very likeable character if that makes sense. People can display arrogance and come across very rude but TF did not. I sensed he was a man made of better things than that, and we he spoke he did with great decorum and you listened to what he has to say. Like Patrick Head when he spoke at the regular team briefings at Williams, when he spoke, you could here a pin drop and when you came away from his briefings, you had an air of confidence that you didnt believe you had before going in.
I really hope TF wins the battle, and no I am not getting money for saying this, but I truely believe he deserves it for what he has showed this year. Let not forget what Mike G has achieved either, considering where they started from and to be best if rest is a remarkable achievement. He equally seems to have great respect for his boss, you only have to see the 1st intereview with them both where you can see great mutual respect for one another. I guess its up to the courts now, let the best man win, I hope its the man in the red corner.
[...] In defence of Tony Fernandes (again) (Joe Saward) [...]
Joe,
On the subject of this dispute, I recall reading something on one of your previous posts and on the ‘saveteamlotus’ website that the High Court ruled in the 90s Trade Mark dispute that Group Lotus had the right to use the ‘CABC’ logo on their production road cars but that the right to use the same logo in Formula 1 fell to Team Lotus.
Aren’t Renault now in breach of that court ruling judging from the nose of their new livery?
Dear all
That’s what I really love about the web- people making utterances that they’d never have the balls to say to your face, and, usually, without the balls to attach their full name to it.
Just noticed, on another f1 related website, that Danny Bahar has announced that Lotus now has plans “underway” to consider whether to build engines for Indycar (last time I read anything about that, they were supposed to be building them, not considering, so, the story keeps changing),and their roadcars. Can’t wait for the Lotus luxury yacht/personalised business jet/ moonrocket/… (add more wank here)
Th PR photo of Danny,which accompanies the article, shows a delightful pose, arms crossed, fingers manicured smile on his face, cleft in chin emphasised by lighting angle, hair with just the right amount of ‘product’,peering into the distance, in designer suit.
What I find really interseting is what is NOT there- a Lotus logo!! This man comes from a sales/marketing background, he is being quoted as CEO of Group Lotus, and he hasn’t the wherewithall to ensure that his brand is visible in the photo??
Bloody hard work, narcissistic wankerism.
The guy lives on a planet with a population of 1.
I get the impression that, instead of Bahar working for Lotus, Lotus is working for him.
As I’ve said previously, there seems to be an element of “I’ll show Ferrari” in the grand (Bahar) plan for Group Lotus. Wonder if he missed a promotion at Ferrari that he considered himself entitled to?
This whole deal with Group Lotus has “Icarus” writ large all over it.
Cheers
Markr
“[..]He convinced Proton’s management to grant him a five-year licence to use the Lotus name in Formula 1. His goal was to use success in racing to revive the moribund Lotus brand and then reverse that success back into buying the car company. [..]
I do not understand it. Why would Proton want sell Lotus to Tony after his (Team Lotus F1) succes in racing? If Tony was succesful in F1 then Lotus could sell more cars and generate more income for Proton.
It might be like this:
Tony wants Group Lotus to collapse and fail so he can buy it from Proton. It sounds pretty agressive, so it’s the reason why Group Lotus management decided that they want to do it their way to protect Lotus brand so it can stay as a part of Proton.
Joe,
Your comments were well thought through and apparently thought provoking to others.
With respect to the comments about the courts will find that Group Lotus have the right to attach it’s name to a team as a sponsor and that 1Malaysia have the right to use the Team Lotus brand.
This is very unlikely to happen. The laws for trademark etc allow two companies with the same name, but not in the same business. That is well established law. Colin Chapman partioned the use of the name to road cars and racing cars to two different companies. That will be accepted as a fact because of all the tax records. So the law will be clear on this one has the right to use it for Motor racing and the other has the right to use it for road cars but never the twain shall meet. Tony better not try to make a road car and as for Renault Lotus, the best they could hope for is a settlement that allows some clumsy name like Renault lotus road cars or similar that makes it very clear. Black and Gold which is associated with the race team is a BAD, BAD idea for Renault. The courts will take a VERY dim view of that because the association is with the F1 team, not the road cars. Proton may end up giving up the company to pay for the damages that could result from that kind of abuse. Imagine Burger King uses the Golden Arches of McDonalds and thinks they can get away with it! Not going to happen and if it did under some looney judge it would be overturned on appeal with a lot of worried big companies writing supporting briefs for Tony!
No wonder the other F1 teams want nothing to do with these people!
So Joe, keep telling it as you see it please and someone give him his chicken back!
I said it before, I will say it again, this smacks of being a shake down of Tony, good for him having the balls to fight back! And when he wins, I hope it is very, very big!
I totally agree with the blog. It is a sensible position to take. A shame that the high court takes months to sort this.
Doger, I heard that story before from LR people. Not sure I buy it though ( outside of the Hill Desent Control function). I just find it hard to believe that we have that much I.P. worth stealing in that area. Now F1…………. that’s different!
Joe,
Why do you say that? Do you have any facts or knowledge that you can’t share with us? Have you seen the licensing agreement?
I think that Proton DO have the right to take their chicken back because, according to Mahathir Mohamad, the “Lotus name was supposed to be used only for racing” and it’s clear that Fernandes started using it for other things. Unless new information comes to light or the pending court case (in which Fernandes is disputing Proton’s right to withdraw the licence) is settled in Fernandes’ favour, I see no reason to think otherwise.
By the way, a BBC Sport article say that “Group Lotus terminated a five-year licensing deal for Fernandes to use the Lotus name in F1, for which Fernandes said it paid him $1m”. That appears to suggest that Group Lotus were paying Fernandes to use the Lotus name, which seems a bit strange – more like a title sponsorship deal.
All this talk of chicken is making me hungry, by the way…
Joe,
I fully accept that this is your opinion and that this is a blog, not a piece of journalism (though a “fellow blogger” of yours has been able to keep it more balanced). I enjoy reading your opinion, as well as the debate that often follows.
You need to separate between the people and the business; much of what you wrote is aimed at the people involved. You must recognize that both parties are aiming to serve the interests of their respective businesses and their shareholders. Politics, or jury trials focus more on the people, rather than the facts (with known shortcomings and consequences), but corporate law is, thankfully, more fact-based.
By the way, the chicken argument is way off the mark. A better example would be letting a property to someone for a finite period. There are clauses in the contract for early termination and, if both parties fail to agree that a termination clause is met, a judge will decide.
Joe,
You are absolutely right about the chicken ofcourse, though should that be turkey, (given the time of year not the item Lotus fans). But will “team right” win the day? I’ve mentioned earlier that I do not think there will be a High Court Judgement on this case so who’s got what cards to play? Here’s only a few thoughts
TF- 1.Group Lotus need to settle before trial. 2. Group Lotus are a natural benefactor of a competitive racing programme using the Lotus name. It never made sense for these two companies to be in different ownership. Presumably the original plan was to ring fence, but under the same share ownership. So TF has got something (for which full payment has not been m,ade I understand) that GL needs.
Group Lotus-1.Political pressure on TF. It is hard to believe or understand the full amount that can be brough to be in these democracies unless you have lived there for a while. To give you a flavour, Air Asia has been effectively runnung out of a cow shed at the K.L. airport complex since it’s birth, not the plush main airport complex for them, till recently. Air Asia have now been cleared of their leprosy but are still not “Bumiputra”. Google the word for a understanding of the term.
Who do I think will emerge with more spoils (or less bruising)? Tony – GL are for the next two seasons at least, promoting Renault(FIA naming protocols). Not clever unless Proton are taking over Renault. TF has a better commercial bargining position. TF has built up some political muscle of his own as the moving of his operation to the main terminal shows.
Hi Joe I like your site and read it every day but think a lot of people have prejudged Bahar. He seems like a perfectly reasonable guy in eveything I’ve read and as the head of Lotus he is entitled to protect that company’s interest, especially what can only be seen as it’s fundamental right ot race under it’s own name.
I just don’t understand how one can support Fernandes over Lotus to race as Lotus in F1, it’s not right.
As for Lopez, he heads up a team that was down and out last year and raced to 5th in the championship and a number of podiums, and a team which at the end of the day outsmarted a willy character like Fernandes, so don’t underestimate him, the type of B2B relationships he wants to build take years.
Joe, you’re spot on.
You know the old saying – You can judge people by who they surround themselves with?
Look at the gallery of idiots Bahar has on staff – Ex-hotel bell boy and Ferrari bouncer Gino Rosato? Say no more.
Ray
Ray,
I did not know Gino had been a bell boy. Do you have any evidence of this?
all this chicken stuff is doing no good – I feel hungry now. Apart from that, some readers seem to miss the point that GL did lend a fake chicken, one they didn’t really own. So GL took it back and Tony then bought it from the owner (Hunt) *lol*.
Joe – I think it is about time to concentrate on the history of that Bahar chap as well. Dig deep, you might be the one opening the right doors in Maranello and Fuschl, even tracing his trails back to Kaiser (where his client was a certain Didi M., so Bahar might know just enough about RedBull inside money affairs to shut D.M. up about the real reasons for his exit from Redbull).
TF as CEO for Lotus ? Yes, please.
Thank you again Joe for fantastic articles BTW
As far as I am concerned Eric Boullier’s words lost credibility after he was busy bandying around that Kimi wants to race for Renault. When Kimi finally settled the issue, saying that he has no intention of doing that, Boullier had the “right mind” of blaming Kimi for the PR mess he had created. Renault’s PR tactics have been pretty miserable this year, in that sense they deserve Bahar. Shame that Lotus has to be dragged through this mud, Fernandes at least showed class and respect towards the brand. It seemed that he understood what it is about. I struggle to understand why should a Lotus badge fit with an overweight Ferrari California competitor and why should I buy it.
Regarding Bahar’s Lotus; I am completely lost in the development economics. Lotus sells 2000 cars a year, let’s say at $100,000.00 per car(probably high), that’s $200,000,000.00 in gross RETAIL sales. Now how do you come up with the money to run an F1 team and the pricinple and interest payments on the $billion they have borrowed for model development. Of course the real issue for them; if you have $150,000.00 plus to spend on an exotic are you really going to buy a Lotus?
Although I don’t agree with them, I can understand the perspective of the Lotus Cars loyalists who want the car maker they support to succeed, and believe that going racing would be a way of restoring some of its former glory.
The problem is that Dany Bahar is busily engaged in driving Lotus Cars into the ground. In addition to the hundreds of borrowed millions he is spending trying to creating the world’s largest racing program from a standing start, he is purporting to develop and introduce five new models in as many years, all of which will be much more expensive than the current Lotus line (thus taking them out of range of the current Lotus clientele), and which will turn the company into a “British Ferrari” in about the same time-frame.
The people who think that Bahar is doing a wonderful job might want to ask themselves a few questions:
(1) where’s the money coming from for the F1, GP2, GP3, LMP2 and Indycar racing programs?
(2) where’s the money coming from to develop and build five new ultra-high-end cars in the next half decade?
(3) who’s actually going to buy these ultra-high-end cars? Porsche and Ferrari buyers tend to be loyal to Wolfsburg and Maranello — how many of them are going to cross the Yare to Hethel?
(4) Everyone can agree that McLaren is a well-run company (whether or not you like them). They’ve spent the past two decades trying to turn themselves into a British Ferrari, and might reasonably be reckoned to be about half-way there. Is it realistic to think that Dany Bahar can accomplish this feat ten times as quickly?
…and there’s new trenchant analysis of the Lotus Cars situation from the boys at http://www.sniffpetrol.com
Dodger,
I don’t think BMW pulled off the Longbridge scam.
I remember it was some guys, posing as “Private Equity”, sans the cash, who worked out they were covered by an implied government guarantee, and so knew they could over bid.
I know BMW were the bogey man, and they got away with the RR&BMC stunt, at their rival’s expense, not anyone elses, but really do you think they put some guys up to such a thing? The way those “businessmen” talked can only come out of utter delusion.
– j
Legally, yes I think they can take their chicken back. Wheter they can do it without paying damages is up to the courts.
One detail i came accross that might however be quite detrimantal to that outcome is something Fernandes said to the beeb:
“Fernandes said he bought the rights to use the name because he became suspicious Group Lotus wanted to terminate their agreement and he wanted to protect his investment.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/mobile/motorsport/formula_one/9296324.stm
If this means that he actually bought the name while still under licence with Group Lotus, it could be argured that he did not do this in Good Faith.
Dodger,
“Why would you revive a brand and THEN buy the company? ”
This is the problem with neglected assets.
You see something of interest moulding away, and to start with you have to pay a company for their time to listen to your bid. That’s a lot, there, already.
Sometimes, you end up paying them for so much time, you might as well buy them.
Because when a savvy manager has someone wanting to buy something from them they never heard of, they get worried about what they are really selling. So they attach strings.
That’s essentially that, but it can take a few years to learn the lesson in reality.
I’m not turning around on my view that I do not think TF needed to deal with Group. But it obviously was the polite thing to do, misguided though i think it.
. .
You mention Occam. This is drinking deeper than I have ever done, but a funny quote for you:
“‘Occam was a strange fellow anyways. As the editor of his Opera Omnia Gideon Gal used to say: “But the fellow was really mad!” ‘”
Here’s the source. from someone I think understands better than you or I: http://www.stlport.org/resources/StepanovUSA.html#
It’s not a Chicken and Egg story. Well, at least it looks like TF is laying the eggs and the cock is claiming rights!
– j
Fast News Day.
Just saying it’s great to hear some M’sian voices.
This is definitely more than just F1, so good to hear what you guys think.
thanks to all,
– john
Hi Joe.
Just want to add my name to the list of people who find your viewpoint refreshingly honest and don’t begrudge your right to an opinion.
And not only that, but you are quite right in my own opinion.
Fernandes is an enthusiastic entrepreneur who is keen to go racing and recognises that to do so he needs to raise a bit of cash. In this regard he is no different to an Enzo Ferrari, Frank Williams, Ron Dennis or even a Colin Chapman. Obviously, using an existing brand that has been hitherto totally neglected is a good way to start, but it’s also a fantastic way of motivating people. But either way, the branding side of things is a means to an end.
Danny Bahar hasn’t said anything, or done anything yet to change my opinion that fundamentally – beyond promoting a brand – he has no reason whatsoever to go racing. And whether his plans for the Lotus brand are successful or not, at some stage the motorsport activities will become surplus to requirements and then all it will take is the slightest downturn in the economy, or a rule change that they don’t agree with for them to simply pull the plug and walk away.
Interesting that people falling on the side of Dany Bahar have literally nothing coherent, sensible or intelligent to say to back them up. That’s as close as you get to unanimity on the internet.
Spot On, Joe. That’s all I can say now.
And a post like this, in the day that Colin Chapman died, exactly 28 years after, was a good oportunity to see the past. And quaite coincidentaly, watching his final, confusing and troublesome years with John DeLorean and David Thieme, I couldn’t avoid making some comparison to what’s going on now, although the subjects are very diferent.
Joe,
I hope you stay strong and stay the course. Don’t listen to the idiots who are rude and/or don’t understand what a blog is. I come here for your opinion and I hope you don’t stop giving it to us.
Yes, very good stuff. Tony needs the support of the fans and journalists like yourself.
Dodger owns Joe.
Dany Bahar has said that, at least for the next two years, Group Lotus will act only as a sponsor to Renault F1 team and that Group Lotus won’t try to change anything in the actual running of the team.
http://www.racer.com/q-a-with-dany-bahar/article/192859/
Eric Boullier has also confirmed that Genii will control the Renault F1 team, not sponsors like Group Lotus.
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/165534/1/boullier_fernandes_fooling_f1_fans_with_fake_lotus.html
So it seems that the strategy of Group Lotus in F1 is to maximize their marketing visibility, while avoiding participation on the technical side. F1 fans will see the sponsorship of Group Lotus in the name of the Lotus Renault GP team, and the livery will imitate the nostalgic JPS Team Lotus colours. There will also be a big Lotus sticker on the nose of the car.
I’d also expect that Dany Bahar and Group Lotus will show mighty presence on the paddock, and Bahar will of course give interviews where he tells about the numerous great feats that Group Lotus MIGHT (or might not) achieve in F1. So this is, in practice, what Dany Bahar means when he says that “the real Lotus is back” in F1.
Meanwhile, Tony Fernandes and Mike Gascoyne have built their own Lotus F1 team from scratch. They only had a couple of months to prepare themselves for the 2010 season, but they proved that they are a professional team that shows commitment and passion for racing. They have also shown their respect to the Chapman family by participating in the Classic Team Lotus Festival at Snetterton, and by inviting them as VIP guests to F1 races.
Tony’s Lotus Racing has also employed engineers from other teams and hired two experienced drivers. They have made a deal to get Renault engines and Red Bull gearboxes for the next season, plus they plan to build their own wind tunnel. All this costs money, a lot of money. Tony Fernandes is a businessman, just like Dany Bahar. But Bahar is in F1 solely to sell more Lotus road cars, while Fernandes does business so he could use more money to make his F1 team’s cars go faster.
So, there is a noticeable difference between Dany Bahar and Tony Fernandes. And if you compare these two Lotus F1 efforts, it shouldn’t be too difficult to see who you should cheer for.
Joe,
I respect your opinion and this blog – lots of excellent information…keep up the great work!
In response to the following:
joesaward
Kevin Hawkins,
Owning a pile of rubble is not much use to anyone…
Yes, but its Proton’s pile of rubble and they can manage it as they please. And isn’t this the same pile of rubble that is/was highly coveted by one Mr. Fernandes based on your previous blogs?
From a biz context – TF had an excellent plan – build the brand and buy the car company cheap in a few years time and make oodles of mulah selling Lotus cars using F1 as a marketing channel. What couldn’t do was also negotiate a deal with to purchase Proton at the same time for dirt cheap in a few year’s time – that was the business gamble he was taking. Well it didn’t pan out for him as per his original plan because someone else convinced Proton of some possibilities, or did it?
Now, who’s to say that someone more evil than a Bond villain is behind these recent events – either from the Proton perspective or a TF perspective.
Proton plan – let’s let this TF dude build up the Lotus image and then screw him by stepping in and try to push him out and take advantage of the brand image he built for us in the first year (assumption – there is a mastermind in Proton that would come up with this in the first place). Not much of a mastermind cause he could have waited 5 years until the license expired all the while focusing on branding through other series in parallel with the free marketing TF was providing them AND building a car product that their target demographic would actually want to buy! Its either idiotic to take a decision to get into F1 at this point in time given the costs associated with it or a stroke of genius to use negative publicity to generate brand awareness…Leaning towards stupid cause they don’t have a car TODAY that their target market wants to buy!
TF PLAN – let’s get this Bahar guy on our payroll, have him convince Proton that they should spend oogles of money on a pipe dream to have them fail earlier so that I can get the company quicker and cheaper. Hmmmm…now that’s GENIUS!
Sounds like the guy in the driver seat here is really TF and I don’t feel sorry for him. Get Proton to spend money on an expensive lawsuit or two against him so they bankrupt faster and he gets what he wanted from day 1 and not risk someone else at Proton realizing the potential of what may be…
Given the above, the man is either a genius/evil mastermind (LOL) or both or one hell of a lucky bugger now that Bahar and his dream vision soon to be nightmare for the Malaysian taxpayer is in the picture.
What a fantastic scenario that just fell into Tonly’s lap or better yet one that he orchestrated (true respect if he did)!
He’s got the deep pockets and isn’t going to feel the political heat as the Malaysian govt, he just needs to sit back and ensure that Proton spend loads of Malaysian dollars so that the politicians start feeling uneasy in a way that only those weasels do! Meanwhile, Proton dumps money foolishly supporting a plan that Fortune 100 company’s would find challenging and TF gets free marketing until they go bankrupt vis a vis other racing series…they may be crap, but the name will still be out there and its image is fixable. A crappy rep for now maybe, but still visible – the general public have short memories unlike F1 fans!
Once he has control, he’ll still need a couple of years to sort out the car company and while he’s doing that, he can fix his brand image by strategically pulling out of the other series and directing viewers to HIS F1 team which he is branding in the same fold as the prior Lotus incarnation. A team which he intends to be a front runner in F1 at the time.
All he needs to do is play victim in all this (which he is doing), remain the nice guy, stay on his path of creating a winning F1 team and he’s golden!
In the meantime, he potentially has 1/6th of the F1 grid with the name Lotus associated with it, FREE marketing through other racing series, FREE development of Lotus road cars (whether its useful or not is another matter – but worth the gamble, no) and a potentially much quicker realization of his objective to own the road car company…unless of course the true master, Bernie (someone wanted my Hublot which I wasn’t wearing at the time – let’s make cash cause I got the sh*t kicked out of me by some by now dead basturds) Ecclestone decides to enter the picture….muahahaha!!!
Either TF is an even better business man than Joe credits him for having Bahar as his henchman, or one epically lucky SOB…what’s the old saying, winners create their own luck LOL!
joe
i have to disclose that when ever you complain about alonso (clearly although you say otherwise but, i get the feeling that you don’t like the spainard, which is fine), or about ferrari making massa pull over, (and the issue of team orders and on and on about how it ruins the sport and how fans are so upset and disillusioned with f1, -polls say something different-) i do become slightly irritated. but as you once correctly stated, “then write your on blog.” well put, and fair enough… however, i do enjoy your site and appreciate your insight and knowledge, and 97% of the time your opinion. it give me great pleasure to read the post that i just read. although i had a sense form the articles and other blogs that team lotus and fernandes deserve quite a bit of respect and have put in a tremendous amount of effort, your blog really puts a fine point on it. thanks for that.
as for mr. bahar this is a very telling line -”And I cannot list his achievements because there do not seem to be very many of them. He goes from one job to the next and never seems to leave people happy.”
i hope your right about the legal out come. i do have one ? for you in closeing, if tony fernandes only signed a 5 year deal (can you clarify who this was with) to use the TEAM LOTUS name then will he not have to surrender that at the end of the contract. and leave him open to an legal issue from proton and mr. bahar again?
BRILLANT MR SAWARD.
The question that I have is why most of the comments that I have read that are from Malaysians seem to back Bahar rather than Fernandes? It seems quite odd to me that they would do this.
Dodger,
Talk about missing the point.
TF is not a saint? Oh I didn’t realise. I must have dreamed up that part.
The point isn’t that he’s not a saint or that he’s an astute businessman, the point is that he did things the *right* way. He got the Chapman family on board, he showed the Lotus brand a lot of respect and he resurrected “Team Lotus” as an independent team. Everyone in F1 is in it to build a business, but not everyone displays the other traits that TF did (and I think the fans appreciated it too).
Let’s talk about the “devil” Dany Bahar, if we must. He has no passion for racing whatsoever, not any I can discern anyway. He’s taking the shortcut of buying into Renault, instead of building an independent entity. He wants to build a team as a promotional tool, which is fine by me actually. Where he falls down is the massive disrespect he’s shown the legacy of Chapman and Lotus itself.
The denigrating remarks coming out of him as well Boullier in recent days have been utterly shameful. Team Lotus is trying to fool the fans? No, you are. Team Lotus should rest in peace? Oh really, then why were you trying to buy them out for over a decade. To top it all off, the new “Lotus Renault” will actually have the historical F1 legacy of Renault!! So much for carrying on the Lotus legacy. Bunch of dishonourable liars, the lot of them.
I hope Dany Bahar runs Group Lotus into the ground, as he undoubtedly will.
And no, you can’t take the chicken back whenever you feel like it.
Cheers.
[...] In defence of Tony Fernandes (again) I know that many readers think that I am overly supportive of Tony Fernandes. I have explained why in great detail in [...] [...]
Dodger wrote:
(Kamarudin Meranun was quoted in the Malaysian press back in September that if Proton wanted to take control of Lotus Racing, they would have to pay off the investments made by him, Fernandes and Nasimuddin, amounting to £70m)
Ahhhh, that’s probably where Dany Bahar’s claim that paying off Fernandes would have cost three times more than buying Renault came from, then. Ignoring the fact that Fernandes was offering him a partial share if he wanted it.
I just happened upon the Lotus press release from when Bahar was appointed CEO:
“On his appointment, Dany Bahar said, “I am looking forward to taking on the challenges as CEO of this legendary and iconic company with a peerless motorsport history. ”
So either he’s had it wrong from go, or he was appointed with the directive to take over the Lotus racing heritage.
Hi Joe.
I assume that “…except the rule that already exists…” refers to precedence. I wonder how many people think that common law guarantees the application of common sense.
As regards this case, as you say, time will tell.
Hi Joe,
I think the reason why people confuse your blog for journalism is because you blog on events using such detailed facts that other journalists simply do not have the ability to muster up. Probably why they make most of it up.
Anyways. You rant away: it’s freakin’ awesome!
Have a merry Christmas, look forward to more of the same!
There’s a chicken now???
Dear All,
I had the pleasure of attending James Allens F1 Forum in London. The panel consisted of Fernandes, Whitmarsh, Clear, DeResta and Ferrari’s press bloke. What surprised me was the good humour and relationships between those on the panel.
When they came in TF impressed me with his personality,he looked directly at me and said hello, he is exactly as you describe Joe. After the event MW and TF were mobbed by fans wanting autographs etc. But some wanted a chat and the full attention of these two men and they got it in a very genuine manner, these two men had a very genuine interest in the fans make no mistake about it.
I spoke to TF and asked where Mike Gascoyne was. At the the back somewhere, go find was the reply. So I did. MG sat there on his own like a bulldog chewing a wasp, very daunting. I told him what a good job they were doing and how proud they should be. His face lit up and we had a nice little chat until he had to go.
The Team Lotus people and MG kept badgering TF to go to another appointment, the reply was hang on I want to talk to the fans. In the end he told them to go on and he would catch them up. TF is a clever businessman and passionate Team Lotus fan. No more can be asked.
I support and wish Team Lotus, TF and MG all the best. They are the right sort of people to look after Team Lotus.
Good on you Joe! Once again you have provided genuine F1 fans with a real insight into the machinations of formula 1, avoided the spineless repetitions of the other ‘news’ sites, who remain in thrall to corporate facelessness, and given us an opinion: something other news providers expect us to pay through the nose for.
p.s. ignore the comments of acuna, the boy is obviously a fool who confuses verbosity for for insight.
Cheers (expect my subscription to GP+ very soon!)
If you abuse their chicken then clearly they do have the right to take it back to safety.
And that is what I think Fernandes has done from the begining to the unfortunate Lotus chicken. He printed Lotus shirts with 1Malaysia logos ror the driver announcement in KL before the season even began. Then he used Lotus cap with ACBC logo in Bahrain to blur the difference between Lotus and Lotus Racing and that clearly was prohibited since Lotus Racing couldn’t use Lotus Cars logo in their marketing materials. Then the infamous Lotus Energy Drink saga and Mofar World Series by Renault team branding as Lotus Junior team with Lotus licence only applying to F1.
And then came the whole Hunt affair. Remember it was only after announcement in Singapore that Lotus pulled their licence. In Singapore Fernandes himself said this to Autosport:
Q. But you have a licence at the moment from Group Lotus?
TF: Yes, but we are terminating that licence.
Q. Has that process already begun?
TF: Yes.
So how can Fernandes claim any damage when he was ready to terminate the contract by the purchase of Team Lotus. That surely must have been breanch of the agreement because the licence only covered naming rights of the team and Fernandes clearly made a move to break that.
I’ve felt from the begining that Fernandes has caused this mess to himself. Lotus is not responsible to support him even if he had hunreds of Colin Chapman’s old hats or couple biased journalists on his side. Fernandes is not Lotus, never has been. That’s why he had to borrow the name in the first place. He has caused so much damage that I find it amazing how can anybody be fooled by him. He clearly is the villain who has misused the name Lotus and thus should not have anything to do with it in F1 or anywhere else. Money should not buy you everything, but clearly it can buy you love of F1 fans and F1 reporters…
Having been involved in the car business for 44 years, I have found there are entrepenuereal blokes who move industries forward with innovative thinking & car salesmen who know how to sell things but have a very narrow view of the world-I think you can work out what my point is.
As it stands, (Group) Lotus are not ‘back’, as Autosport so fawningly put it. GL were never racing in the first place so how can they be back? And they especially can’t be ‘back’ if it isn’t even (Group) Lotus F-1 chassis or engines that are racing.
At best GL are a part owner and sponsor of the Renault team. It was a Renault this year and it will be a Renault next year. The only thing about it that will be Lotus will be the stickers on the side and front. It will be no more a Lotus that the Mclaren is a Vodafone. G-Lotus marketing will try to have us think otherwise but spin is spin and a sponsor (even one that buys a stake) is just that.
Promises from Protus, er sorry Group Lotus including 5 new high end sports car models and entry to no less than 4 of the World’s most competitive and expensive levels of racing, boggle the mind.
Oh and now apparently they are going to build their own engines as well. Come to think of it I guess they aren’t likely to win over many Porsche and Ferrari buyers with a Lotus-Toyota then are they? And let’s not forget this entire undertaking is totally reliant on massively penetrating a sports-car market that is already saturated by well established and genuinely (as opposed to re-imagined) historic brands.
Surely this massive Lotus Group sports-car manufacturing and motorsports commitment is, sooner or later, going to topple under its own weight of ambition; too many major programs on too many fronts, stretching resources in every direction.
Mark my words; it is a flaming, steaming train-wreck just waiting to happen.
Joe,
The one thing that really worries me about this whole situation is that if somehow it goes ahead as it stands the average punter will be backing the wrong Lotus!
By that i mean the “fake Lotus F1″ (Group) should be well up the field and the “real Lotus” (team) will be looked upon as being the “fake Lotus” by the average punter that only really follows the racing when it is in thier neck of the woods!
Only the die hard fans will know who the real Lotus Team are and that will be a crying shame!
[...] Source: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/in-defence-of-tony-fernandes-again/ [...]
Adam wrote: “So the law will be clear on this one has the right to use it for Motor racing and the other has the right to use it for road cars but never the twain shall meet.”
Actually, the Team Lotus trademark for motor racing was revoked earlier this year.
Lightweight wrote: “Group Lotus need to settle before trial.”
Actually, Group are in a pretty strong position because, unlike Team Lotus, their trademark has been used in F1 within the last 16 years…by Tony Fernandes, amusingly enough!
Aramis wrote: “..as the head of Lotus he [Bahar] is entitled to protect that company’s interest…”.
Well said. I wonder what people would be saying if the positions were reversed – i.e. Fernandes running Group Lotus and Bahar claiming the right to use the “Team Lotus” name.
Ash wrote: “Everyone can agree that McLaren is a well-run company (whether or not you like them). They’ve spent the past two decades trying to turn themselves into a British Ferrari, and might reasonably be reckoned to be about half-way there. Is it realistic to think that Dany Bahar can accomplish this feat ten times as quickly?”
Some would argue that Lotus WAS the British Ferrari but has let its crown slip since its heyday.
John wrote: “I don’t think BMW pulled off the Longbridge scam.”
I don’t think BMW expected that the Phoenix Four would drain the company of cash like they did but they certainly stripped the group of it’s valuable assets and brands and then sold Rover off to whoever would take it off their hands. They didn’t care whether the Phoenix Four were delusional or not – they simply wanted to get rid of it as a going concern so they could avoid the hassle of shutting the company down and making all the workers redundant.
Very, very smart of BMW, if you ask me. Asset-strip the company, then let someone else take the flack!
Greg wrote: “If you abuse their chicken…”
Thanks Greg. Now I have a mental image involving Fernandes and a startled-looking chicken that will haunt me until the end of my days!
Abhijeet wrote: “[Fernandes] showed the Lotus brand a lot of respect…”
On the contrary, using the Lotus brand to launch a new soft drinks company doesn’t strike me as particularly respectful. Regarding Bahar, where’s this “massive disrespect he’s shown the legacy of Chapman and Lotus itself”?
Keep drinking the LR8 Kool-Aid…
Kevin Harlow wrote: ““On his appointment, Dany Bahar said, “I am looking forward to taking on the challenges as CEO of this legendary and iconic company with a peerless motorsport history. ”
So either he’s had it wrong from go, or he was appointed with the directive to take over the Lotus racing heritage.”
Absolutely. I can’t understand why people dno’t grasp that simple fact. You don’t appoint someone like Bahar, who spearheaded Red Bull’s ventures into F1 and then worked for Ferrari, unless your strategy is to promote your company through F1.
rdw wrote: “There’s a chicken now???”
I ended up having Thai green chicken curry for lunch on Friday. V.tasty indeed. Nom nom nom…
Dodger, I am sure that the High Court will listen to all your arguments and rule in favour of Group Lotus… Let’s wait and see what happens, shall we?
Everyone loves to listen to others’ problems and their own hidden under the carpet
joe wrote: “Dodger, I am sure that the High Court will listen to all your arguments and rule in favour of Group Lotus… Let’s wait and see what happens, shall we?”
Come on now, old chap. Sarcasm ill befits you.
The High Court ruling only addresses whether the trademark claimed by Team Lotus Ventures Limited is valid or not. Victory for Fernandes in court would NOT be any proof whatsoever that he has not acted in bad faith with regard to his dealings with Group Lotus or whether he misused the Lotus brand.
If I can find out when the hearing is scheduled, I hope to attend it.
I’ll also, Joe, be looking forward to news emerging about this lawsuit against Bahar by one of his former employers, and learning more about why he’s disliked by the other team owners.
Greg – A few days after Fernandes claimed that he was working to terminate the licence, 1Malaysia CEO Riad Asmat was claiming in a press release that it had been withdrawn by Group Lotus:
“The licence debate really is a non-issue. It was a simple licence, attached to a one year sponsorship deal with Proton for 2010 alone and, in fact, for a tiny proportion of the amount invested by the shareholders into the team – approximately 1.5% of the total budget. Unfortunately, we never reached the point where we discussed extending that one year deal.
[...]
“So now the licence we ran under this year has been withdrawn by Group Lotus and, while we accept that this obviously means we have reached the end of that chapter, it opens up a new and very exciting one for everyone in our team. There will have to be some discussions with Proton and Group Lotus about the entitlement to terminate the licence. Frankly, they are trying to say that some very trivial points, including T-shirt design approvals of all things, gave them the right to terminate, but we thoroughly reject this.”
So, did the 1Malaysia team terminate the licence, as Fernandes suggested, or did Group Lotus withdraw the licence, as Riad Asmat claimed?
Or, are they just saying whatever makes them look good and makes Group Lotus look bad – a classic case of spin from someone who learnt about PR while working for Richard Branson.
Note that there’s no mention of the energy drink!
Perhaps we should start referring to Fernandes as Teflon Tony!
I think that it’s also worth noting that Gerard Lopez has said that “We have been discussing with Proton and Lotus a number of projects that are outside of F1, and we have been doing so for a year and a half.
[Talk about] F1 came on the back of them no longer having a contract with 1Malaysia Racing, and they proposed for us to work for us together.”
i.e. Group Lotus didn’t start talking about taking a stake in the Renault team until AFTER the deal with 1Malaysia was ended.
So did Group Lotus take their chicken back or was it thrown back in their face?
You know, I went into this with a fairly neutral viewpoint, as I do honestly believe that
Dodger,
I am going to wait until the judge decides there is not much point in speculating further.
(I hit submit too early by mistake!)
..as I do honestly believe that Fernandes and Gascoyne did a superb job getting the team off the ground.
However, the more I research it and find out about details like the energy drink and the conflicting stories about who terminated the licence, and what appears to be a smear campaign against Bahahr, the more I’m finding myself viewing Fernandes in a negative light.
Dodger,
Dany Bahar does not need a smear campaign against him. He creates his own problems around him.
What problems?!
You keep making reference to him doing unspecified Nasty Things and Upsetting People but you’re mysteriously reluctant to be specific in any way!
PU/SU
Dodger,
You have no understanding of the laws relating to the written word. You cannot PU/SU unless you can prove it, all you can do is hint and try to guide people with open minds. If minds are closed then they are closed and no amount of guidance will help them.
Dodger,
I’ll give you the one about BMW / Longbridge / “Pheonix”. (We had them at the name!)
BMW installed a revolving door in their boardroom at the time.
So, hmm, I’m a little suspicious also.
But then, you have to imagine all (conspiracy, as you discuss it, which would be strong stuff if there was anything in reality to support the idea) that that got past Johanna Quandt. Which i’ll never believe. No chance kidding her. I only mention that name, because you talk like it was really serious. People talk about something smelling all the way to the top. Good to know where the top is, or was, at the time. Which is why i do not believe any conspiracy.
I think the UK government did everything short of begging to get conned.
Execs do amazing things, when they see a sucker in the room, even if that sucker is the Public.
That’s 21/20 to you, in old ping pong.
No, I’ll admit another point to you, because of that revolving door. Getting rid of people is what you do when they do unsavoury things. My point about Quandt, is that there, from where she sits, is a much higher respect for what it takes to be a good citizen in business.
Maybe I am wrong, earlier, that VW nicked people from BMW, maybe it was BMW ditching those they didn’t like.
OK, now you win 21/18!
– – –
you really are smart enough to see things,
but then you go and get twisted on a simple thing:
. .
“Withdrawn”
not “Revoked” (as you said)
about the trademark application you referred to.
. . .
This is going to turn on some very fine points, assuming it’s a court battle.
Which it ain’t.
Don’t think it was a license, either.
If you want to argue these points, get them right. It’s not semantics.
– -
No criticism personally, Dodger, good debate, no foul.
But please stop hiding your arguments in little words.
I’ll try better, too.
– john
John,
If Dodger was referring to TRADE MARK No. 2297413A (as I think you also did in the “For Lotus fans” thread), then I read in the case detail that this was Revoked as Dodger said. Or did I missunderstand you?
Another point that I was hoping you might comment on is if this decission back in 1995, where TLV failed to expand their class coverage due to opposition from GL, has any relevance today:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-challenge-decision-results/o21098.pdf
Just to be as clear as I can, about the BMW / Longbridge thing:
I see nothing, in the history of BMW’s modern owners, that says they do anything other than build things up.
Why would anyone like that risk a half – century legacy by busting up a company like a bully?
It’s not the profit taking which is the motive, it’s the political fall – out which is the deterrent. Being British, I get het up about even the possibility. But i blame ourselves for this one.
About the revolving door at BMW. I’d fire anyone for getting involved with the Phoenix people.
I was just wanting to argue against my original point, because you had a good angle too. Wanted to see if you won on the original argument, and you did. As originally written.
I rather see Phoenix as opportunists, getting their spoils, from two rivals fighting. The Phoenix people coat – tailed better names.
But Dodger, yes, it smells, just try looking at what some our lot did.
– j
gtornes,
Point!
but it looks more like abandoned.
I cannot find the word “revoked” in the document you link.
My use of “withdrawn” was too strong, also.
As per usual, it is neither one or the other.
I also get this, from that PDF,I’m pretty sure it was the one we discussed earlier:
“Furthermore, Mr Messent [Group Lotus - my ed.] states, it was also agreed between Group Lotus Limited and Team
10 Lotus Limited that they [both?] would cease all use of a device mark similar to marks for which the
application has been made (the only difference being that the words Team Lotus are
substituted by the word Lotus).”
That’s where i got the idea of “withdrawn” from.
I just effectively got Monday off, by accident. It’s gone to my head!
Thank you again.
– john
Sorry for the inclusion of “10″ in the middle of Team Lotus Limited. That was a bad copy and paste from the linked pagination.
We’re all missing the point! Instead of carrying on this endless debate about Lotus and chickens a far greater good would be served by getting Tony Fernandes to come and run BA and Heathrow!
Bob Bennett
SW France.
John,
Maybe I’m the one making matters confusing now.
The PDF relates to an opposition from GL to TLV trying to expand their class registration of Trademark no 1337455 and no 1338435 (both in Class 35). These were originally submitted in 1988.
The trademark that got revoked is Trademark no 2297413A (Class 41). This was submitted in 2002 and then revoked in April this year.
More info here:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=2297413A
By the way, I notice that TLV also has registred a trademark no 2297413B, submitted in 2002, in class 35. This looks to me as identical to no 1337455. Any reason why they would have two identical registrations?
Also, I notice that there is a Revocation case sumbitted for both no 1337455 (25. January) and no 2297413B (25.May) this year.
gtornes,
The thing which i think is most operative, is this:
I have always been talking about the class 41, which doesn’t work. I was skeptical of the class 35, trying to see both sides, but good info below . .
I think we’re both getting confused, class 35, class 41, now class 12. (I double checked that), and a whole bunch more coming.
It’s footsie.
But when I said I double checked that, your link was to a different aplication!
No harm done, you’re not getting this confused, it is just plain messing about.
Correct! The last one you mentioned, Trade Mark 2297413A, is in fact revoked.
What I mistook, blast it, should not have skim read, was in “Land vehicles, and parts thereof included in Class 12″
The indication of an agreement, which report i quoted, just fascinated me.
Like a complete fool, I just was looking for one point, by way of reply. I appreciate your help.
Ahh, the revocation was the 5 year rule.
Oh how I fall!
But, try this:
, from
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-challenge-decision-results/o14703.pdf
“47. Having regard to Section 46(5), the revocation has been partially successful. The
registrations will be revoked with effect from 11 January 2002 in respect of all services save as
follows:
No. 1338435 – Advertising services included in Class 35, all relating to Formula One
motor racing.
No. 1337455 – Advertising services included in Class 35, all relating to Formula One
motor racing; but not including any such services relating to pre-recorded
tapes.
Note The latter part of the specification of No. 1337455 preserves an
existing exclusion.
As both sides have achieved a measure of success I make no order as to costs.
Dated this 29 day of May 2003″
– – –
Operative phrase is “save as”.
Group conceded a useful point or two in a proper hearing.
So, rather old hat.
Your class 12 notice confused me.
That’s why I make sure someone edits what I write if I am doing something seriously!
– - –
but here’s something of more substance, from the examiner:
“44. This decision, nevertheless, calls for further comment in two respects. Mr Hunt’s evidence essentially details his company’s efforts to get Team Lotus back into Formula 1. The
registrations under attack cover advertising services. Does it necessarily follow that the proper reasons for non-use hold good for these collateral services? In my view it does [. . . .]”
– - –
That was very positive in favor of Team Lotus.
*I* don’t mind being wrong!
This is years of litigation, and it’s not een worthy of court yet, so i elieve I’ve got an excuse.
Thank you for being so quick, to fix my argument. Hopfully this will happen again.
– john
p.s. thank you ALL for making me a memorable day off. You’re Amateur, until someone walks in in trouble, and you have to help them. At least I am.
P.S.
I think I said it before:
“Groklaw”
That was a bunch of amateurs, and a whole load of highly skilled people too, who just intuitively knew something was wrong.
They have been proven very very right.
Sorry for my typos, must go home. But check that thing out, which I just mentioned, if you enjoy debate of this kind. Especially how you learn from the distractions, the alleyways.
If I had a answer, I’d be a judge.
That’d take another decade or two, allowing I did it full time!
Blimey, there’s a joke, I’d not appoint me a judge! Not ever!
My view is: “feels wrong”.
You always loose points along the way.
Keep it up boys! No-one else paying attention!
– john
Joe, you already noticed and mentioned that the black Lotus Renault GP livery comes with very few big sponsor names of the 2010, bar Total and Snoras Bank. Yeah, why Snoras Bank?
Well, its major shareholder is a certain relatively young Russian businessman who not so long ago tried to get hold of Saab cars via Spyker via Snoras. Not only that he was denied this but is reportedly not allowed to mess around Saab for the next 5-6 years. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antonov)
Does it throw some interesting light onto this complicated combination of Lotus, Renault, Proton, Genii Capital and Snoras or not?
Dear all
Dodger- PU/SU + put up or shut up, yes??
John, and gtornes- I’d love to agree or disagree with you, but, I don’t know what the hell you are both talking about.
Maybe if you both stop thinking in shorthand, (or Gaelic, I’m not sure which it is!), and take the time to articulate claerly, so that I, (and I suspect, a lot of other readers) can work out WTF you are muttering about.
On another note- just got my hands on December 2010 “Evo” (they are transported to Australia by camel train, unless you pay about $20 (Aust) for the air freight version). There are 9 pages devoted to the new range,
Having now seen all of the range, I’d have to say they are “drop-dead gorgeous” (got the GL website to open this time, too)
An interesting quote from Danny Bahar, when questioned on how he “tempted the new staff to Lotus”.
The bit that stood out for me is this”… al these people have good jobs and good salaries, but they leave the company and nothing really changes, nobody cries after you.” Included in the crew are a guy called Wolf zimmerman, ex boss of engineering at AMG.
The engineering director, a Brit called Paul Newsome, had “the full array of technical data:chassis, suspension, powerplants, dimensions, target weights, performance. Everything. …. just nine months into a new product plan”
All the cars are well past clay models- interiors and exteriors are complete. The Elise is estimated to start at 34,000 pounds, which is within the price range of the current models.
Bahar again mmentions 770,000 pounds of inverstment money, as well.
The journo who is writing it is Ollie Marriage.
I have no idea of how thorough Evo is, or this Ollie bloke, I only buy it occasionally.
But, I have to say, I’m a tad impressed. Or, amybe, less unimpressed.
The cars are just soo strikingly beautiful, it would be great to see them on the road.
Cheers
Markr
joesaward wrote: “You have no understanding of the laws relating to the written word.”
I do, as it happens, and I happen to think that if the information upon which you are basing the conclusions you are presenting as fact, is so shaky that you fear a libel case if you repeat it, then that tells me a fair amount about the reliability of said information (even if I don’t know what it is) and, therefore, of the conclusions you have drawn from it.
Having said all that, given that you’re the one who goes to every Grand Prix and mixes with the paddock, while I merely watch them on the TV at home, I suspect there’s a good chance that, sooner or later, I’ll end up mock-grumpily conceding that you were right whilst you triumphantly crow “See? I told you so!”
I’m just going to say this, for Dodger.
The word “libel” is pretty strong word to be throwing around.
My Dad took me to some of George Carman’s cases when I was a kid. Before Carman got famous, just.
Carman is a hero of mine, though it’s awful how it took it’s toll.
There are some other raw talents, of the same approximate generation, but Max Mosely may the most public one, at least here.
I wrote above something flippant about “until someone in need turns up at your door”, that kind of thing. I spoke to soon. So I’ve got a bit of an emergency on, for who is a neighbor also.
But I felt compelled to write you.
You see, I don’t know how Joe libelled anyone.
Also, you concede that Joe may know more than you.
Knowledge is a statutory defense!
Actually make that reasonable belief.
Fancy another game of ping pong?
. . .
cut long story short,
are you accusing in one breath, and retracting in the next?
This feels like targetting the wrong person.
. . .
I respect what you write, Dodger,
but can we take unsubstaniated highly serious accusations out of this?
Clarification?
. . .
I have this nice feeling that no-one here will ever say “I told you so”.
Difference between heart and rhetoric.
Yours,
– john
http://www.lotuscars.com/news/en/nigel-mansell
Come on Mr. Saward, do your thing and badmouth Mansell for he has betrayed the one and only true Lotus.
Cyclops,
I have said my piece about Lotus. As I keep telling people the courts will decide… Going on and on about it is a waste of energy unless, as happened recently, I feel that someone is being unfairly attacked.
[Dodger]On the contrary, using the Lotus brand to launch a new soft drinks company doesn’t strike me as particularly respectful. Regarding Bahar, where’s this “massive disrespect he’s shown the legacy of Chapman and Lotus itself”?
Group Lotus want to create a “Lotus” racing team that carries the historical legacy of Renault! Renault?!!? Are you kidding me?!!!
Dany Bahar’s words… “They achieved a lot and they should rest in peace.”
Translation: Oh well, after years of court battles we couldn’t get control of the team, so we’re going to bury it… and the historical heritage of Team Lotus along with it. Everyone close their eyes and ears and just pretend that Team Lotus never existed at all.
Really, is it *that* hard to see how disrespectful he’s been?
Oh, TF got the Chapman family on board, did a deal with Hunt instead of taking him to court, but he launched a soft drink… what a sleazeball.
Clyclops – your one-eyed myopic bias betrays you… So you are now attacking people for things they might say in the future? Or you are just over-promoting the Mansell quote as you did on F1 Fanatic? It devalues your argument.
Cyclops – your one-eyed myopic bias betrays you… So you are now attacking people for things they might say in the future? Or you are just over-promoting the Mansell quote as you did on F1 Fanatic? It devalues your argument.
Joe – please delete first post with typo & this one thx.
John,
Agree, feels wrong. But mostly in the sense that two wrongs don’t make a right. Find it intereseting that TF is going ahead with branding his team with a trademark that is only registered for advertising on F1 cars as “collatteral services”, which feels like rather thin ice. But then again, to quite TF on twitter: .. that’s the deck of hand we got handed”. Still think all will be settled in Malaysia.
Abhijeet,
Although Chapman set up and ran Team and Group as separate legal entities, they were always treated as one brand, or manufacturer if you like, with the cars carrying badged proclaiming the number of F1 championships and the team drivers driving Lotus road cars.
There was also much cross collaboration in the design and build of the race cars. For instance most early race cars carried build plaques from Lotus Components (part of Group) and not Team Lotus. Although many innovations where first implemented, and therefore made famous, on the F1 cars, they often originated outside the Team. Examples of this is the research programmes done by Lotus Engineering (part of Group), led by Tony Rudd, on ground effect and active suspension.
I therefore don’t see how one can deny that Lotus as a manufacturer (represented by Group Lotus) has a racing heritage with Team Lotus. Granted, after Chapmans death the link is weakened, but only gradually as there were still loads of people (like Tony Rudd, already mentioned) that remained and were still heavily involved in both the racing, engineering and car building sides. Even after the Chapman family sold the team (in 1990) the links remained failry strong, although Group at that time had enough of its own problems to really contribute heavily.
Now on the comments from Bahar that Team Lotus should be ”allowed to rest in peace”, I agree that this can be seen as a way of getting away from the trouble of having to deal with the Team Lotus trademark. It can however also be seen as a way of recognising that there really is no way of putting in place a proper continuation of the old team, as this really has been dead for 16 years. No matter how you went about to build a new team, it would essentially always be a new team. Granted, I think the way Lotus Racing has tried to present themselves as a true successor this year has been very successful, but for me one of the things that actually made this effort believable was just that fact that they didn’t use the Team Lotus name.
As Joe writes above, another of the many well though through things they did was to use “the right car designation”. The importance of this move in I think can’t be underestimated, for as to quote Mike Gascoyne: “I think it needed to be a green and yellow car, and it needed to have the chassis designation T127, which is the next Lotus type number. If it didn’t have either of those, it wasn’t a real Lotus.”:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/2/10436.html
Well T127 was the next Lotus type number, as allocated by Group Lotus (type numbers are always allocated at the start of projects, so the Evora is Type 122, the 2-11 is Type 123, Evora racecar is Type 124, Exos racer is Type 125 and I suspect the new Esprit is Type 126). Will be interesting to see what designation both next years Team Lotus and Lotus RenaultGP cars get.
As a third point, both Joe and others many have commented on the fact that Clive and Hazel Chapman has supported them this year as one reason why they should be regarded as a true successor to the old team, but one thing that strikes me is whether or not that support came as a result of Group giving the support to them first. There has been a rumour floating around for some time that Clive Chapman has withdrawn this support, and although I have not seen any firm evidence of this, it certainly strikes me that as far as I can see he has at least not tried to distance himself from the Group. As late as early October, several weeks after the deal by Fernandes with David hunt became public, he attended the Lotus launch in Paris:
http://www.autoworld.com.my/emzine/vimage/showpics.asp?RID=3132&P=/userimages/emzine/3132/19391180.jpg&C=Petrol-electric%20hybrid%20and%20KERS%20technology%20will%20feature%20heavily.&T=undefined
Also, Classic Team Lotus is also still located just opposite the main entrance at Hethel and continue to lend Group the old classic cars (last I saw, they had a Type 72 at the LA show) and on their website the first link to other sites is still to Group Lotus:
http://www.classicteamlotus.co.uk/content/links.aspx
Will therefore be interesting so see if/when Clive and Hazel speak out about where stands in all this.
Correction – the link to the picture of Clive Chapman in Paris should be this:
http://www.autoworld.com.my/emzine/vimage/showpics.asp?RID=3132&P=/userimages/emzine/3132/20022780.jpg&C=Racing%20legend%20Sir%20Stirling%20Moss%28R%29%20shares%20a%20light%20moment%20with%20Clive%20Chapman%2C%20son%20of%20Colin%20Chapman.&T=undefined
Supporting the other side means having an opinion. Attacking people who support the other side is low. There have been attacks on Lopez, Boullier, Bahar and Autosport magazine for expressing other opinion than Frenandes. I even saw attacks on Kubica for the very fact he didn’t leave the team, which is a level of absurd that I have never seen.
As far as Mr. Saward’s “courts will decide”. There is a Polish movie about peasants having a quarrel lasting for generations. One of the characters said “Sądy sądami, ale sprawiedliwość musi być po naszej stronie” which translates to “courts are courts but justice has to be on our side”. I’m pretty much sure that Fernandes neophytes will express such attitude should the court ruling be against Fernandes, whereas the supporters of LRGP will accept any verdict. And that’s the differences between having an opinion and being biased.
Cyclops,
Merry Christmas to you too
gtornes,
I’m always willing to listen to a well reasoned argument and most of what you say makes total sense to me.
As for what designation the “Lotus Renault” will carry next year, it doesn’t matter so much as the fact the team will carry the Renault legacy. Just that fact destroys any remaining link it may or may not have had with the original team that raced as Lotus under Chapman.
Frankly, it was imperative upon Group Lotus to make a deal with Hunt, which they have repeatedly failed to do.
I’m really curious as to the opinions of the Chapman family at this point as well. Where they stand will likely determine public opinion as well.
After a week of heated and often spiteful posts related to this thread, and with Christmas upon us, I really think everyone needs to just take a deep breath, relax and assume the Lotus Position.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88759
Merry Christmas.
Seems we didn’t have to wait to long to find out:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88759
This certainly sways it for me. Wonder how TF is going to react to this.
Abhijeet wrote: “I’m really curious as to the opinions of the Chapman family at this point as well.”
They support Group Lotus, fairly unequivocably, even going so far as to state that they would prefer that the Team Lotus name did not return to F1. They hint that Fernandes was fully aware of that preference: “During 2010, the Chapman Family, as and when appropriate, made it clear to those involved that it would prefer that the Team Lotus name should not be used in Formula One. Indeed, assurances to this effect were received.”
I wonder who those assurances were received from.
They even rubberstamp the Group Lotus-Team Lotus link: “The association by Group Lotus with Team Lotus history is much appreciated and entirely appropriate, especially as it is in keeping with how things were in Colin Chapman’s time.”
Full details at: http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/37040.html
So, Joe – should Fernandes hang on to that black cap?
Dodger,
I am sure that the family was under pressure to support the Group. They no doubt have a licence for “Classic Team Lotus”. so they really had no choice… If I was TF I’s keep the black cap.
Dear all
Hope everyone had a lovely Xmas.
All this talk of poultry reminds me of a joke:-
“what’s the difference between kinky and deviate?”
“With kinky, you use a feather, with deviate, the whole chook”
Something just occured to me, as I read over all the entries-
how are Team Lotus and Group Lotus going to deal with each other on the racetrack??
It could be an interesting thing as far as overtaking goes.
Having said that, the Group Lotus/Renault team will have KERs, Team Lotus won’t.
But, will the animus spread to the racetrack???
Cheers
MarkR
so why would Group Lotus make this huge apple cart upset ?
there is a team in F1 , doing an ok job , painted green & yellow with massive LOTUS lettering on the side
instant win for them wouldnt you think ?
seems to me that people/management at Group wanted input/directorship/control of affairs . . . . .
for whatever reasons
& thst TF wanted to be paid out the sum he wanted before he would let that happen
the renault wont be a lotus & lotus fans know it . & “Team Lotus” have a very real danger of not being “Team Lotus” anymore
the real issue money & control . Group lotus want in . TF wants to get paid out
& the loser is Lotus as a brand
… and Group Lotus have said they’ll build a Lotus Museum for the Chapmans. Things are never black and white. For me it comes down to integrity, which TF and Team Lotus have shown in spades, along the way earning the respect of the paddock and many fans around the world. One question is who is better for F1 – Tony Fernandes or Danny Bahar? Fernandes has built a team from scratch and delivered on his objective to be the fastest of the new teams. He has invested in the team’s future infrastructure with Renault engines, Red Bull gear box & hydraulics, now building a new wind tunnel. Buying 25% of an existing team as a title sponsor does not earn racing pedigree. Do people think Vodafone know anything about building racing cars? They know plenty about making money from McLaren’s brand and performance, fair enough. Time will tell whether Bahar delivers on his vision and rivals Ferrari road cars and all manner of motorsport achievements. The people of Malaysia will probably have to pay the bill. In 3-5 years I’d bet the bubble has burst and they’re up for a Fernandes bail-out for another ringgit. Whether Group Lotus in its current guise would have any appeal is a different question – it doesn’t really fit with the Tune Group ethos. It would resolve the Chapman’s quandary but that’s probably not high on Tony’s to-do list at the moment. I tend to think “what goes around comes around” and in the long run integrity wins out. We’ve already seen some pretty off quotes coming out of Renault now DB is pulling some strings. On that basis I will be supporting TF and Team Lotus, whatever name they race under. I think the majority feel TF has earnt (& bought) the right to use Team Lotus and it would be a shame if he didn’t, despite the Chapman’s following the money. I expect it might take a few seasons to move up through the mid-field, but it will have been done through honest hard-work, skill and shrewd investment. That’s the better side of F1 for me.
Joe – go fish, we won’t have an answer on this for a couple of years
nice posting. that great opinian
Team Lotus cars will be on the grid, and they will be burning again. What a shame for an Legendary name
You people are blind.
Fernandes build the team from a scratch! That’ bul%@it !
He stole the name and put on his face, nothing more then that…
…no sorry, He ask on twitter: tell me, if I’m cool guy. Then he burned Lotus cars on track
If Virgin stole Brabham’s name or HRT name from Tyrrell you also would be infected
Even Bahar is a shark, he has true company to promote
I’m wrong ?
Well Vauxhall is a German car from Opel Manufacturer, but all Brits thing is British
Lutbar,
You are so very angry. Why is that?
It is not wise to go around accusing people of theft. There is no doubt that a licence agreement existed for Tony Fernandes to use the Lotus name, so I suggest you back off on that, as you are simply wrong. If you read the new story about Fernandes and the development of the Lotus T127, you will see exactly what happened.
As to Vauxhall and Opel, remember that Opel started out trying to build cars in Germany with a bloke called Lutzmann. These failed and Opel acquired the licence to build Darracq cars – which were French, so I would back off on the Deutschland ist wunderbar argument and remember that it is all down to a Frenchman. Actually, before you look it all up and tell me I am wrong, I should add that Alexandre Darracq started in the automobile business by buying the rights to manufacture a design by the Bollée company, which was also French.
Oh, and while we are at it, remember that the Alfa company also started out with a Darracq design…
Yes I’m mad Team Lotus is part of my soul, you know that
Why?
First
Saying that Tonny build the Team from scratch is wrong
He use Legend splendour and this help him a lot
Second
Looks like most of the journalist change they mind
Murray in 2009 wrote on F1Racing something like this
“I really welcome a much-needed new team today, which will expand the boundaries of F1 and I wish them every success. But sorry new Lotus is not true Lotus and for me it never will be.”
I agree with him till now, even he change his mind
The Opel
I knew U write the true, you know well the stories, I have enormous respect for that, …for seeking the true, but that was just example of connection between people and the mark
Lutbar,
Tony built a team from scratch. You cannot argue otherwise. It is wrong. He agreed a licence to use the Lotus name. That was the correct way to do th. Most journalists have not changed their view and those that have are not worth reading. Group Lotus, in my opinion (and the opinion of many other people in the automotive and motorsport world), is an unrealistic balloon of hot air waiting to pop. It is just not realistic, even if they have all the money in the world – and at some point they need to sell some cars…
Ok, I back my words, and agree I was to emotional
He not stole the name, he use it to make good business
Nothing wrong with that, so sorry Mr. Fernades be always look on the bright side
Since F1 is more cabaret then innovation and true racing, I don’t care, I will try keep my good memories
Steward compare Clark, Hill and Brabham with Vettel
What worse could happen…
yeah U right, and I don’t care
I still watching
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/local/cache-vignettes/L375xH236/arton17163-e9d34.jpg
That’s clean proof, F1 make me crazy
lutbar,
I have no idea what you are talking about
Only this that I’m still curious what happen
Two new inf.
First bad for LR GP
“Proton seeks RM2.35b funding to revive Lotus”
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/1/19/business/7821744&sec=business
Second, I thing good one
RT @peterdwindsor: New motorway running right to Magny Cours circuit officially opens Feb 4: let’s have a French GP back on the calendar! #f1