The post-race rush to get articles written went on deep into Sunday night, not helped by a traffic jam getting out of Monaco at 11pm, which meant that 50 minutes were wasted, looking at the back of a truck. Having finished it all in the wildly early hours of Monday, we set out to drive to Paris, where I was going to put by GP+ colleague David Tremayne onto a TGV to get him to London for an important appointment on Tuesday. So there was no cruising along the Rhone, nor any long lunches. It was a delight to pop over to St Jean Cap Ferrat at seven in the morning, with the run rising on the Riviera.
After that it was a run through Nice before the traffic built up and within half an hour we were up and running on the autoroute, bound for Aix en Provence and the road north to Lyon. It was a long day and relatively uninteresting although we did have time to discuss the weekend in Monaco and the conclusion reached was that Lewis Hamilton was incredibly unlucky, and Sebastian Vettel had the kind of good fortune that a man gets when he is on his way to a World Championship. Everything fell in his favour. He was given pole position and his primary rival (Hamilton) was stuck down in ninth. In the race when it looked like Sebastian would be beaten, a red flag came out and he was able to get new tyres. That robbed us of a great final few laps, because everyone was back on the same rubber and so the status quo remained.
Hamilton did what he could and pulled off some great moves to claw his way forward at a track where overtaking is virtually impossible, even with all the new systems. This begs a question: while Monaco is an integral part of the Formula 1 scene, and a key element in its brand value, is there really value in a race track where racing is not possible? It was not helped by the fact that the FIA stewards chose to penalise those who attempted to make up ground with risky overtakes. Yes, perhaps they made contact with other cars, but there is no other way to pass at Monaco, unless the other driver cedes. Michael Schumacher showed his intelligence when Lewis went past him, giving Hamilton just enough room once it was clear that they could not go through the corner together. Sadly, Pastor Maldonado did not display the same level of savvy when Hamilton did the same to him. He turned into Hamilton and ended up out of the race – and a bunch of points that Williams really needed were thrown away. And then Hamilton was penalised.
The problem was summed up best by Fernando Alonso. He was closing in and ready to attack for the lead when the Red Flag came out in the closing laps.
“I was ready to attack,” he said. “It is difficult here, there is not much space. There is the risk of 50 per cent you overtake 50 per cent maybe you crash, but this is Monaco and he is leading the championship so he has much more to lose than me, so I was ready to attack. I will try to win the race and if we crash we crash.”
And, inevitably, it seems one would then be penalised. The decisions made in Monaco by the Stewards, particularly the Hamilton and Paul di Resta penalties sent out a message that overtaking cannot really be attempted at Monaco. And this is not right. Drivers should be encouraged to try and make better racing, not slapped because they had to lean on someone to get ahead. The only other option is to find a way to reprofile Monaco to provide a better overtaking opportunity for the drivers. How that is done is another question because there is so little space, but it cannot be impossible if one reverts to the premise that track design is a science and overtaking possibilities can be designed into a race track. Monaco has been changed several times over the years and there is no reason why it cannot happen again.
Better than giving up and looking for a new iconic race in Asia…
I don’t always agree with you Joe, but on this you have my full backing. This insidious “where there’s a collision there must be blame” culture has been creeping up on us over the past few years and is a dangerous road to travel as it could rob the sport of the risk taking which makes it so exciting. Added to which there’s increasing potential for results to be manipulated when the finishing order is increasingly determined by the officials rather than just the participants.
Just let them race FIA! Have a penalty system for gross breaches (Schumacher / Hill 1994 springs to mind) but don’t try to adjudicate every move on track, it’s a slippery slope!
I daresay you’re in the minority in your assessment of the Hamilton-Maldonado incident, Joe. He wasn’t even close to being alongside and Maldonado couldn’t have been expected to just move aside at Ste Devote where there’s only one line. Would you have the same view if the roles were reversed? Or perhaps if you were Frank Williams? The Schumacher incident was a different case entirely – it was a brilliant, perfectly judged move.
I can forgive hamilton’s frustration afterwards (as you say he was very unlucky this weekend) but calling his colleagues “frickin’ stupid” wasn’t particularly smart – you’re risking your lives alongside these guys every other weekend and they deserve more respect. Part of being a champion is maintaining your dignity when things don’t go to plan and he tends to struggle with that more than his rivals, Richard Williams sums it up well this morning: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/may/31/lewis-hamilton-formula-one-monaco?CMP=twt_gu
Whilst I cringe at Lewis Hamilton’s post-race outburst, I can’t help but sympathise with him. At probably his best opportunity to use his talent to overhaul his faster rival, his luck was simply appalling. Seb Vettel had outrageous fortune with the two red flags.
Not hard to envisage a still-pent-up driver interpreting a conspiracy out of those events.
The stewards at Monaco have always seemed stricter than at other tracks. However, with the difficulty of executing passing moves, and the slower overall lap speed than anywhere else, they should probably be more tolerant of contact than at some of the other – higher speed – tracks.
Maybe Lewis needs to watch Mark Webber’s overtake on Kamui and learn from that?
Derek,
If Lewis was driving a Red Bull, then it would be easy, wouldn’t it?
Joe with regard to Lewis’ attempted pass on Massa I couldn’t agree with you more. If the port is to be made as exciting as possible then the benefit has to be given to those brave enough to attempt maneuvers such as Hamilton’s, Schumacher’s and even Diresta’s.
While I think it was correct to punish Diresta because I don’t thing he was in complete control of his car the same can’t be said for Hamilton. He forced himself into a gap that Massa left open. He did not make it ‘past’ mass, but on that circuit making it past is nigh on impossible.
If Massa had been forced to drive more defensively and protect against situations like the hairpin one then he would be more vulnerable coming through the tunnel, or into the following chicane because he had a bad exit at the hairpin. The rules as they exist at the moment protect the man in front far too much. In my view as long as the following car can find a gap, and maintain control then it is the responsibility of the leader not to cause damage.
Any thoughts?
I’m with you joe , except to say that monaco is a unique circuit so needs unique standards
because something is acceptable in monaco doesn’t mean it is acceptable elsewhere in my view , circumstances alter cases
and personally I had no idea about the red flag rules …I feel robbed !tyre warmers , ok for safety reasons ; fixing hamilton’s car , new tyres etc …ludicrous
I totally agree, it is becoming oh so obvious that every time Lewis drives his heart out and actually overtakes people on the most difficult track to overtake, that he gets penalised.
His comments after the race were absolutely justified – he does get called into the stewards office way to much. Its not like he is Jaime or Kobiashi or another of the crash drivers – he is a world champion and races like one.
Yeah the Ali G reference was kinda silly, but so what?
The stewards are far to concerned with punishing the drivers and teams, but the real losers are the fans.
Bound to be controversial Joe, but I agree totally about Hamilton. The Massa penalty probably was deserved, but Maldonado definitely turned in early.
Well said Joe.
It would seem that many of your colleagues and many ‘fans’ have lost sight that the sport we follow is called Motor RACING. Perhaps the FIA should just let the Monaco grid get set on Saturday, award the points on that and then stage a high speed demonstration run on Sunday.
Who knows, it might be very popular with the strategic thinking points collectors.
I find it a bit strange some people are depicting Lewis as the victim like this. Both of the moves he tried were very marginal and while Maldonado should have been aware of his intentions, Lewis really wasn’t close enough to pull the move off without Maldonado backing off significantly. In the end he even ended up gaining a place by putting someone in the barriers as the penalty didn’t account to anything. Di Resta himself felt his attempt was overly ambitious and it was nice to see a racing driver admitting to a mistake for a change after Lewis’s comments.
In my opinion overtaking in any open-wheel series should be about finesse. Senna, Hamilton’s biggest idol, was in the exact same position as Alonso describes in the quote in 1992 and didn’t make a half-hearted move, and we all know it wasn’t because of lack of trying. I don’t think Alonso would have done something like that either. While I applaud Lewis’s drive I feel he was over the limit this time.
Regarding Monaco, I feel there’s no need to change the layout or to let drivers bump into each other there. As overtaking has become much easier on other tracks, I think F1 can have one venue where a pass is still like a goal in football. It still wasn’t impossible to do it cleanly either.
Well said Joe, I can only hope the someone at the FIA is reading.
This last race has been a blight on what has so far been an exceptional season. Hamilton is right to be upset. What sort of race is it without overtaking?
Personally I feel Monaco has no place in modern F1, but its not going anywhere so we can only hope something is done to improve the situation next year.
So glad to see that you’ve seen through all the furore caused over the weekend and have recognised what I thought was the real issue. The transition from racing incidents to avoidable accidents. I’m sure all accidents in F1 are avoidable, just need to leave a decent braking distance to the car in front, but then it wouldn’t really be racing.
Regardless of who takes the blame for the accidents at the weekend the stewards didn’t need to be involved to such a high degree.
I want to see drivers go for the gap without contstant fear of the stewards, and drivers to respect the fact they’ve left the door open and they can’t close it when another car is there.
Hamilton & Schumacher in the overtakes between them showed the respect that drivers should have for each other.
@Teemu,
I’d be interested to know which overtakes you thought were done cleanly? Aside from Schumacher passing a sleeping Hamilton, every single pass that I saw relied on the defending driver realising there would be an accident if they did not yield.
just,
Absolutely.
Here’s an interesting picture of the two passing moves made by Hamilton on Schumacher and Maldonado:
Exactly the same from Hamilton, but Shumy give room, and Maldonado does not.
How far alongside do you have to be to be considered to have the inside line and are given some room?
Have to agree Joe – when I saw Di Resta get a penalty, I thought ‘here we go…’ – after all, who came off worse in that collission? He had a go, put his car up the inside at Lowes, and lost his wing. Lewis tried the same with a bit more bumping, but he had a go.
I think the problem there was that the stewards had already dished out a penalty for Di Resta, so they had to for Lewis, it was the same situation in the same place. But there shouldn’t have been a penalty in the first place.
Then with Maldonado – racing incident. Lewis was alongside, Maldonado turned in, and spun after contact. Lewis had a go, and he was alongside. But once in that situation, he needed the Williams to see him, to give him some space and to be honest, Maldonado could probably have held the place if he had.
I was really disappointed with the fact that drivers could change their tyres on the grid too – felt that was a wrong move – even though it is in the rules – and that should be changed. I understand of course tyres need to be changed if a race is stopped due to rain, but can it not be said that the only change can be from dry to wet tyres, or vice versa?
Sorry Joe but must disagree. For one Lewis was overdriving in an effort to turn his bad luck that was mostly his own/mclarens fault.
Come on they have been there enough times to know they were playing a risky strategy. And it was Lewis who cut the chicane to lose his fast lap.
He set the stage and the frustration was not at the end of the race but started the day before and was influencing his driving.
Regarding the race i have been entertained throughout the race and maybe there is not much overtaking they are much sweeter if they work and most races at monaco have enough spectacle to entertain.
The red flag / tire change was unfortunate but vettel forces his luck by being fast and being on the front spot (almost) every time (and that only part the car!).
On changes, i suggest they fix the bumps at tunnel exit so it’s safer and probably with a slight change in the chicane there is an overtake possible there as with the bumps gone you may go side by side.
I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with your analysis of the (justified) penalties given out in Monaco. Given that both Di Resta and Hamilton were climbing all over the kerbs when trying to make their penalised moves, penalties were inevitable and correct. Hamilton made a stunning move on Schumacher early in the race (in the same way as Schumi’s own move on Hamilton was impressive), but he was allowing himself to be frustrated and was making stupid lunges which were only ever going to end with someone in the barrier.
How many of those who are saying Hamilton was unfairly penalised this weekend, would have criticised Alonso for colliding with Heidfeld at the hairpin three years ago in almost identical circumstances?
The difference between both penalised Brits is that one held his hands up to being optimistic, while the other blamed everyone else. Time for Mr Hamilton to take a leaf out of the book of his rookie colleague.
Davcid Myers,
So you advocate a system where there is no overtaking – and hence no race.
I couldn’t agree more with Joe. What irks me the most is stewards apparently determining whether they were ‘avoidable’ collisions. Did Lewis to everything he could to avoid a collision? No he did not as making a move inevitable carries the risk of ending with a collision. What stewards didn’t seem to look at this race was the question whether the lead driver did everything he could to avoid a collision. Did Maldonado? No, he turned in smack on the apex probably knowing Hamilton had his nose alongside him, resulting in unavoidable contact. Did Massa? No, as soon as he saw Hamilton getting his nose alongside he turned in knowing full well this would result in contact. Looking at that footage I find it blatantly obvious Massa turns in well earlier and sharper than usual – compare with Webber who’s in front of them at that point it becomes even clearer. Is the blame for the ‘avoidable’ collision then not shared between both drivers? Why always penalize the guy making the move?
We hail the moves Schumid did at the hairpin as great overtakes, but they only happened because the lead driver gave enough room (ROS and HAM), same for Lewis’ move on schumi in T1. Yet we slam the overtaker when the lead driver does not give sufficient room and it ends in contact. Very hypocritical.
Does F1 want overtaking and racing or just drivers biding their time hoping they can win on strategy alone.
Maybe Tilke can copy monaco in the middle east, just make it a little wider .. or would that be a better idea for Las Vegas .. it could go next to fake Paris or fake Venice!
I remember walking through some gardens to get to a carpark in Vegas once and happening upon the Rape of the Sabine Women .. truely one of the more surreal moments of my life.
They didnt help themselves when they reprofiled St Devote, that used to be an established overtaking point (sort of!) now its so thin with the pit exit coming out round there that we’re lucky anyone can get through it.
Thought di restas penalty was harsh, simply monaco overtaking manouvre that didnt quite come off. However Mclaren dropped Hamilton in it on Saturday so not suprised to see a little frustrated driving, lets face it what did he have to lose and it least he gave some entertainment value.
I understand the need for consistency with the stewards, but its racing and a little clumsy driving has always been around. Maybe they think that with KERS and DRS drivers dont actually need to try and overtake anymore, it just happens at the press of a button?!
Is there room to reprofile the entry into Ste Devote? At the entry to the corner the outside wall of the track bulges inward, which forces drivers to take a tight line into the corner and precludes overtaking. If there was more room on the outside at the entry of the corner, the racing line into there would be wider, so then there might be more of a chance to get up the inside coming out of the DRS zone.
I think the MAL-related penalty was well deserved, Lewis Hamilton having ruined this poor chap’s race by forcing a move when he clearly didn’t have the kind of run on him as he had on Michael Schumacher earlier.
As for the circuit and its merits, I fear more about last weeks race a Montmelo, where clearly the circuit needs further tweaks even with the new and exciting set of rules and tires.
Monaco was somewhat ruined by the inept set of rules that allow for a fresh set of tires even when the race was not stopped for a change of climatic conditions. That should be rectified ASAP. Other than that, it was quite exciting to see a couple of good passes into the first corner and even in the hair pin. Maybe simply removing the bump after the tunnel could help add another opportunity?
If Monaco’s layout were to be tweaked, my first concern would be the pit exit, not because changing it would increase the spectacle, but because it is extremely dangerous in its current form. I’d consider slowing Tabac, to create a chance after the pool, but I’m not sure that would even work.
Teemu
In the Alonso quote he clearly said that if the race had continued and a 50/50 chance came up he would have taken it and accepted the chance of a crash. Indeed I believe if the race hadn’t been red flagged, Button would have won with Alonso and Vettel retiring with damage, because those drivers have exactly the same attitude as Hamilton. Its all about winning.
The Mansell/Senna situation in Monaco was different, Mansell never left any gap at all. There was nowhere for Senna to stick his nose in, unlike the incidents at the weekend. If there had been a gap at any point then sure as hell Senna would have gone for it, he always did.
MartinUK, it was Mansell who was behind Senna…
Of course you’re right it was Mike, I was taken in by Teemu’s comment and got myself confused.
Still there was never a gap left, hence the stalemate.
Wow what a difference in F1 forums.
Just been on James Allen’s site and read the comments there. Almost all thought Hamilton was in the wrong driving wise.
One particularly ‘great’ comment was ‘One day karma is going to catch up with Lewis Hamilton just as surely as it did Ayrton Senna.” Fricken idiot as Hamilton might say! I have responded accordingly.
Much better class of F1 fan on here though!!
I agree with you Joe. I thought Massa was caught out by Webber getting too close to the guy in front and braking early, so Massa swung wide to avoid which let Hamilton in. Ham was trying to force a way through, perhaps it was a bit optimistic, but hardly a Kamikaze move. I wouldn’t necessarily blame Massa like Hamilton did, but he did close on him pretty hard. Racing incident really.
The Maldonado one I thought was Maldonado’s fault. He was wide on the corner the move was there to be made. He knew Hamilton was right up behind him and was going to be pushing, as soon as he was wide he should have been looking for him. Maldonado was master of his own fate here.
In terms of your point about the circuit, I think the bumps need looking at as they are clearly dangerous, but I felt the overtaking was about right. For me Monaco is a different sort of test for a driver. As long as it’s the only circuit like it, I don’t mind that overtaking is limited as it was this year. But it shouldn’t be non-existent.
I would say that previous years it has been too hard, but although there were fewer moves than other races, the ones we did get showed the class of the driver (Schu on Ham and Ham on Schu, Webber on Kob off the top of my head.).
On another matter, looking at the daft comments on Sunday the Ali G comment and the dig at Mas and Mld has kind of obscured the fact that Hamilton had a real pop at his team, again. He’s looking increasingly fed up with the way McLaren are running (or ruining) their races. What price him moving to Red Bull?
hamiliton cut the chicane, he deserved a penalty. he drove like an absolute idiot. trying on those passes was kindergarten stuff, on both occasions, he was never ever going to make it.
webber showed the way with his pass on koba so yes joe, it can be done. hamilton is losing the plot and he cannot accept that button is outdriving him. this messes with his head.
just wait and see if he tries it on with the ‘hard men’ like alonso. i doubt it.
kenji C,
I am afraid that this remark is rather like your comments about Briatore. You do not really understand the concept of F1. Hamilton drove a brilliant race and anyone who cannot see that is simply not switched on. Webber was able to pass Kobayashi because his car was infinitely superior. Hamilton is not an idiot. he is not losing the plot. He is not being outdriven by Button. I suggest that you learn a little more about the sport before spouting off about it.
Joe,
how are the chances to see Hamilton driving for Red Bull?
Joe, Re. Hamilton. If I’ve understood you right, you think that if a faster driver has the balls and skill to get a nose alongside a slower driver in front, the slower driver should cede, even though the faster driver has not really got track position.
I suppose from a pragmatic point of view, you’re right, losing a place is better than a DNF.
Roland
Roland,
The skill of racing is to put yourself somewhere so the other guy is forced to give way. If Maldonado was as smart as Schumacher he would have have ceded and would have finished the race with points. Instead he turned in and there was a crash. Lewis had nowhere else to go, so the decision to have the accident was Maldonado’s. Hamilton was taking risks because he had no choice if he wanted a good result. At best one might call that a racing incident, but to punish Hamilton for trying to race seems to be unnecessary to me.
Martin,UK
I think Alonso’s main point is that as Vettel has more to lose, he is probably more cooperative than most, hence a 50/50 move was likely to end in Alonso’s favour. I can’t see either of Lewis’s moves being 50/50.
Teemu,
The point that Alonso was making was that it is touch-and-go as to whether you will make it. 50-50. It is not about Vettel. It would have been 50-50 if it was anyone.
Joe. And here’s me thinking there was actually overtaking without the bumper car antics. His comments about frickin ridiculous drivers shows how arrogant he is. Pulling the race card and then trying to turn it into a joke was so stupid. Seems this boy thinks he’s never in the wrong
rc,
I think that he had a point about overtaking. An I think that he was worked up and frustrated and will regret making the Ali G remark. You have to stop occasionally when you condemn people and think what they do. It is easy for you in your armchair to say “he’s arrogant” or “he’s stupid”, but he has been driving an amazing race, through an amazing town and at the end of a race he is hyped up on adrenaline and he may say the wrong thing. It happens all the time. He did make a mistake by the remark bout Ali G, but just appreciate what it is that these guys do before blasting at them.
Derek – Mark should look at Lewis’ on Schumacher.
LH maybe did not need to call the drivers stupid but the facts are that LH gave way to Schumacher, Rosberg gave way to Schumacher and Schumacher gave way to Hamilton – good overtake and no crashes.
Massa and Maldonado chose not to give way and ended up with no points. Maybe they are not stupid, but ending up with no points is not so clever either
At least LH would not have sat back in 3rd place and have “fun” like Button did.
Did anyone see the apology to Mal and Mas from Lewis Hamilton on twitter last night?
I don’t think it’s hte real Lewis, it looks like a fake twitter acc.
http://www.lewishamilton.com doesn’t have a link to the @lewishamilton twitter account.
Plus the twitter account has pictures “of” Lewis, not “by” Lewis. A giveaway of a fake account?
joe, you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. i have been watching and following F1 since inception and before that every GP since ’59 so don’t tell me i don’t understand F1.
what i do understand is that there are drivers that can accomplish the seemingly impossible but they do it with skill and grace and sometimes with a few bumps.
hamilton is driving like senna/shumacher at times. they showed absolutely no regard for others and when someone fights for track position and doesn’t roll over they spit the dummy.
you of all people should understand this. just because you enjoy a following and a damned good blog doesn’t give you the right to act in such a supercilious manner. other people have opinions have every right to express them.
kenji C,
I felt (and still feel) that you expressed an opinion that is not right. I am not saying that you have not watched a lot of Grands Prix but if that is the case then I surprised that you still have such opinions.
Totally agree with you Joe. I do not understand why drivers should be penalised for trying to overtake each other. Isn’t that was motor racing is partly about? If someone does something dangerous or unsporting on the track, that is fair enough, but getting punished for a genuine attempt to pass a rival that doesn’t quite come off seems counter productive.
If the stewards are happy to dish out penalties, they should also penalise drivers who deliberately change lines under braking to block an opponent, as both Massa and Maldonado did in their incidents with Lewis. I think it’s completely unsporting and needs to be stamped out.
The right way versus the wrong way to overtake?
part one – part two
We need some consistency in F1.
To those who are accusing Hamilton of being up on the for his move on Massa, try watch the footage again. There is contact between Massa and Hamilton before his front left touches the Kerb.
Once the contact had happened his car could not go anywhere other than onto the kerb, but he certainly didn’t use the kerb to get alongside Massa.
Joe,
Absolutely spot on.
What I recall from Lewis’ overtake of Massa (I haven’t looked at the replays yet — still too disgusted at the result) was that Massa managed to crash into the back of Webber first. This is what damaged his front wing (causing the crash in the tunnel — you can see the gaping hole in his nose, and that certainly didn’t come from the impact with Lewis).
Massa took a very wide line in (probably to avoid hitting Webber, ironically); which opened the door for Lewis. Massa then looked in his mirrors and saw Lewis coming down the inside; and promptly turned in on him. At this point, his front wing prangs Webber’s rear tyre and diffuser (critically damaging it) before he continues on to crash into the side of Lewis.
So, from what I saw, Massa managed to cause three avoidable accidents in the space of two corners. His crashing into Webber; his turning into Lewis; and his own crash in the tunnel.
I’d say ‘fricking idiot’ about sums it up.
one does wonder what happened to ‘racing incidents’, seems like every time there is contact someone is going to get penalized this year. Instead of trying to lay blame and arguing back and forth who’s fault the collisions were this race, isn’t it more sensible to say that both drivers share responsibility (and blame if you must). I feel that the very strict stewarding this season is just handcuffing real racers.
With stewards claiming to be consistent in their decisions, can anyone explain how Kobayashi only got reprimanded for making contact with Sutil while out of control with locked front wheels, and then profiting from the contact taking the position? If this is deemed a racing incident -which I agree it was – then why weren’t the other moves?
Damn I thought the Hamilton bashers might stay away from this forum. But no they are here and missing the point.
To me, Joe or many other reading this blog it doesn’t matter which driver it was. The fact is that we are here to see racing, we want to see the best drivers, pushing the limits and pushing for the win and there was plenty of that at the weekend, only for stewards to get in the way.
Yes the rant was out of order (in my mind the Ali G reference was actually the least offensive part) but it reminded me a lot of this http://www.themagicofsenna.com/senna/suzuka.html
Notice any similarity? These drivers live on the edge, they all have huge ego’s and they’re all out there for one reason. The only difference is now the audience gets to see a lot more of their off track personalities.
Most racing fans want the Senna/Prost days back and with the fiery personalities & driving styles of Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Kobayashi and Schumacher on the grid it looks like we’re getting them.
I think it’s safe to say that Lewis had a race to forget. I don’t think it was a brilliant race by his standards, resulting in the red mist that he saw in the post race interviews. All you were seeing there folks was frustration, pure and simple.
With regard to his move on Massa, it was gutsy, but ultimately was not going to come off, Massa was always going to turn in, on purpose or not. Frankly, Michaels move on Lewis earlier in the race was a) lucky and b) fortunate in that Lewis had the sense/opportunity to avoid the tangle.
With Maldonado, I agree had he been as aware as Schumacher was, then the result would have been different. But, Lewis isn’t blameless either, and Pastor had the line and was ahead, so its 50:50 in my view and best summed up as a racing incident.
On the subject of punishments, I felt that this weekend, the stewards were fairly consistent and had no choice in the actions regarding Lewis and Paul. I know people harp on back to how standards vary between races and go and compare this with Singapore 2010, however, as a starting point we want to see the same crime punished in the same way at least on a weekend basis. We saw that this weekend, we’ll just have to see if that consistancy can be carried through the rest of the season.
People have been moaning about the lack of overtaking – and opportunities to do so – in Monaco for years now.
So here’s my proposal: Why not turn Monaco into a time trial? Cycling tours have no problem with having races for 90% of the time, then an occasional time trial to stir things up a bit, so why not have one time trial per season in F1, and hold it around the streets of Monaco?
I would suggest that the drivers have, say, 8 laps each on the Saturday afternoon (in place of qualifying) with only one driver on track at any time.
The drivers would take to the track in reverse championship order (i.e., lowest-ranked driver first, championship leader last).
Then on the Sunday they go around in the opposite direction, with the slowest time from the Saturday going out first, the fastest driver last.
Anyone got Bernie’s email?
There are possibilities as to what time should be recorded against each driver (fastest, average or even their slowest lap) but the overall result is some combination of one (or even all) Saturday and Sunday time.
Joe, I didn’t see the same Hamilton race you did. It looked to me like he arrived in Monaco with a chip on his shoulder, this was aggrevated by his penalized qualifying lap. He then drove like a bull in a china shop on Sunday. Hamilton got to 6th by taking out Massa and Maldonado. The too late dive down the inside is classic Hamilton, it was a tell tale sign of the onset of his mid season brain fade last year.
Brent,
See the reply to Jo Torrent
Ok we just get it that you are a Hamilton fan, but I never thought you’ll behave like a teenage girl in love with a rock star.
You are the 1st one to blame Maldonado for the accident. As you want to set yourself apart, at least you succeeded in that respect.
While with Massa opinions were divided some saying race incident, some putting the blame on Massa & others on Hamilton, unanimity was granted on Maldonado until you decided to put your opinion after 48 hours of reflexion.
Stewards were against Hamilton, but Stewards are “freakin stupid” aren’t they. But Brundle & Coulthard put the blame on Hamilton for that incident & so did Davidson and most if not all the journos covering the event.
The question is then, how on earth can you come with such an opinion. Maybe the age doesn’t help, maybe without jetlag you’re unable to put an objective and well-thought opinion. Or maybe you were wrong today which happens to everyone of us like it happened with Hamilton Sunday.
What is much less excusable is the way you overlooked Hamilton post-race behavior. For someone ready to fire on anyone mainly Briatore and your colleagues, you missed a nice occasion there.
Your beloved Hamilton is treating his colleagues of freaking stupid, complained of anyone and anything since Monday and yet you remain silent…
P.S : Vettel was lucky with RedFlag, he wasn’t with Pole Position. McLaren Q3 mistake helped him with Pole and those mistakes aren’t luck they are part of racing.
Jo Torrent,
I am a Hamilton fan to the extent that he is best driver out there, although I accept that it is very close between him and Alonso. That is it and I don’t really appreciate your silly remarks about school girls. I have explained the post-race comments as I think one should allow drivers a little leeway immediately after races. Not understanding that shows a complete lack of understanding about the mentality of a racing driver. I think you should not be so dismissive. Similarly, I think you should have a little more respect (not for the first time) about this blog. I offer you the opportunity to make comments, you should not abuse that privilege. It is not a right.
” Lewis had nowhere else to go, so the decision to have the accident was Maldonado’s. ”
These are Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton tactics and Senna was successful because people yielded. In F1, Football or whatever sport, it is about who has the psychological edge when it is tight as it is in Monaco.
Hamilton move was completely wrong, he was no near close to making an overtaking. If Maldonado let him through Hamilton would have had the psychological edge. Now that Maldonado didn’t yield, Hamilton knows next time when the situation arises that if he does the same move a crash will follow and as a championship contender he has much more to loose.
Bullying opponents used to work in Senna, Schumi days. It is no longer the case.
Jo Torrent
It is not a question of bullying. It is a question of placing the car in a position that gives your rival no option. That is called racecraft.
Joe,
I agree with some the issues taken as individual events. And, after one race, the next race should be taken on face value. But when an athlete has a series of incidents, as in Hamilton’s case, there is something beyond the performance on the track.
He blamed Schumacher for blocking him for a reason – to let another German driver stretch a lead. He blamed Trulli (because he had a Mercedes engine?) for blocking him. Massa turned in “deliberately.” And Maldonado. His outburst after the race should not have happened.
Hamilton may still be the most talented driver and makes up for some of the McLaren deficiencies but when “people” are out to get you, it sounds pretty hollow. If he was racing Maldonado for position, even if he turned in a little early, how does that stack up to defending your position? The other events referred to in your article and others show a disturbing trend and reason indicates it can’t be others all the time.
Are he and Schumacher even now since Schumacher didn’t block him this time?
I was surprised that they reformed on the grid, I was sure that they had to start line astern on the pole side of the track.
Vettel was lucky not to be penalised for letting the safety car get more than 3 lengths ahead, and backing up the field, I can remember Lewis getting a penalty for the same thing.
Whilst of course it is best to keep your mouth shut after racing incidents, it is difficult to do when your are contractually/legally obliged (in sporting regs) to do the opposite.
Must go and check the regs.
Maldonado at fault? It’s not April 1st you know Joe !
**Paul**
No, it is not April 1. Read the post and think about what I am saying. Other people can understand the concept. I am not blaming him per se, I am saying that he was put into a position where he could have two things: Michael Schumacher did one; he did the other. Racing is about making the right decision to achieve your goals. Maldonado may have been right if one looks at the situation without opening the mind just a little bit, but did he score points?
Jo Torrent: “unanimity was granted on Maldonado until you decided to put your opinion after 48 hours of reflexion.”
Unanimity? Are you sure? Strange that Williams’ own Sam Michael classes it as just a racing incident then in a recent interview.
I want real racing, I want drivers cutting the PR crap and speak their mind. In both cases things drivers do on track and say off track will not always be the appropriate thing, and I love it that way.
Think back of the Schumacher incidents with Hill and Villeneuve, classic cases of the car ahead turning into an overtaking driver. Yet there we all agree the lead driver was at fault. Now take off the name Schumacher and Hill/Villeneuve, put those incidents in a 2011 steward context and think of it as driver X vs driver Y. Still think the overtaking driver is always at fault and that the lead driver has no shared respoinsibility for the contact?
Bullshit. It is possible to make clean overtakes because Michael pulled one on Rosberg. Part of the fun of Monaco is the racing of defending a position whether the overtake attempt is successful or not. There was no gap for hamilton to go through and Maldonado had no obligation to crash into the left hand wall just to let Lewis through. Lewis didn’t even have his wheel in front.
@John O’Sullivan
Regarding the @lewishamilton Twitter account, it has been confirmed by multiple sources to be Lewis himself. Sources including Jake Humphrey, Jonathan Noble (of Autosport) and I think Adam Cooper.
Also, McLaren’s official feed @thefifthdriver has said it’s actually Lewis.
So – unless it’s been hacked – I think it’s probably actually Lewis.
Love your insights Joe, but couldn’t disagree with you more regarding Lewis’ driving in Monaco. After watching and re-watching videos of both the Massa and Maldonado incidents, there’s no doubt in my mind that Hamilton caused both of them. He took out two drivers who would likely have finished in the points, and the penalty he got for the Maldonado crash was meaningless. A penalty was well deserved, but he didn’t get one.
I reckon we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
And by the way, I am NOT a Hamilton hater, as some may infer from my perspective on this. Along with Alonso and Vettel he is the best, and usually the most exciting to watch.
Kobayashi ran off the track at the chicane, not to get round the corner, but to avoid being taken out by Webber, then felt he had to concede the place.
Do you think the stewards would have agreed Joe ? And if so, isn’t there’s some injustice here ?
Joe, I’d personally request that you, please, do ban Jo Torrent.
Having a differing view is one thing, making personal attacks is another.
What I find quite ironic, given Torrent’s disdain for Hamilton’s comments on ‘stupid drivers’, i.e. a personal attack is that he/she then has the gall to personally attack you.
What arrogance. What hypocrisy.
Torrent says you are the first and only one to blame Maldonado. It must be great being omniscient.
Even better to be able to speak for everyone.
Speak for yourself Torrent, not others. Start your own blog. See if anyone gives a darn what you think.
And, again, please Joe, do ban Torrent. If someone will go further than attacking other poster.. and actually attack the person who by good grace gives them this forum, they don’t deserve to post.
Respectfully,
Phil
I find myself reading this and nodding in agreement at almost all the points you make. I also agree with a posters comment about Hamilton’s interview been cringe-worthy.
This is the first time I was asking myself if Monaco is truly fit for purpose. Of course, Monaco is the rich person’s playground so it will be very hard to stop F1 going there, plus the drivers like the challenge. But from my lowly, tv watching point-of-view, Monaco has had its day unless it radically overhauls itself.
Joe:
I agree with your view that the stewards have been overzealous with their handing out of penalties for collisions, I have always been of the opinion that aggressive driving produces exciting races, I much rather see that than polite drivers going in circles with no overtaking. I think there have been more “senseless” uses of this rule by the stewards this season, and should have been brought up then. I can’t help but wonder that if it had been Schumacher driving that way the nature of this conversation would be significantly different.
In my view Hamilton was trying to make up for his strategic error in qualifying by being more aggressive that usual, during the race. He does give the impression though that he feels he “deserves” preferential treatment. I cannot for the life of me see what he was talking about Massa holding him back in Qualifying and him being penalized for it. I can fully understand a hot headed driver getting out of the car and saying things he might regret, I would not hold anything like that over them, but he’s talking about something that supposedly happened the day before, at that point he should have analyzed the events of Q1 and come to the conclusion that he gambled by waiting until the very end to do his final lap and the gamble didint pay.
If he can’t accept the consequences of his actions, maybe he should still have his father holding his hand while out of the car. In the adult world, you make a mistake you take the consequences that come with it.
Forgive me for adding to this if its been beaten to death. However I must say something. I secured a copy of the race and looked at the overtakes more than a few times. First the moves: Schu on Hamilton: perfect as he got alongside before the turning point, wheels aligned front and back so Schu at the point of turn in was ahead of Hamilton, the move was not in the turn but in the run up to the hairpin. A clean move, done perfectly.
Hamilton on Massa: terrible. at the point of turn in, given that we agree Massa did not take the tightest line around the hairpin, so you must admit that a wider turn also means a later turn, at the point of turn in Hamiltons front tire was just ahead of Massa’s rear tire and thus he hit Massas sidepod when Massa turned. Hamilton over committed and thought it was fair because Schu managed it on him earlier. Not a clean overtake at all.
Hamilton on Maldinado: bad, as surely we all know Hamilton was in a faster car, but he only got as far as punching past the Williams rear tire, not even up to the front of its side pod at the turn in point, into a really tight fast corner with a very narrow exit. This is clearly seen when you watch that Hamilton’s car runs over the corner marker. The corner marker falls right in the middle of Hamilton’s car, so at minimum Hamilton had to make/move over 1/2 a car width to take the corner correctly.
More importantly, his comments: Disgusting, he is obviously upset about the weekend, his team was unfortunate in quali, Massa did not hold him up… in fact probably gave him a toe on the uphill section… his team messed up his pit stop calling him in when they weren’t ready. Maybe it was all the buzz of the event but the pressure got to him. To say his competitors were terrible, not professional and bad drivers is really disrespectful. Massa lost a title to Hamilton respectfully in the final corner. But one make a terrible joke and two then talk about his peers this was is terrible. Imagine if any other car did the same move he did and the result was the same, that Hamilton’s race was ruined and a Force India or whatever went on and finished 6th. He would be up in arms and screaming, but Massa and Maldonaldo didn’t come out crying their quietly accepted it as racing.
Finally, his clarifications yesterday with the BBC that “I feel like I can be the fastest here. I was, and not with the fastest car.” etc just doesn’t work for me. He wasn’t the fastest, Alonso and Button were putting in way faster laps than him, he just felt his were fast because he was in the middle of the pack against slower cars. Its easy to say you felt the fastest when you are racing cars, 1/2 second a lap slower all day.
Someone said “it is becoming oh so obvious that every time Lewis drives his heart out and actually overtakes people on the most difficult track to overtake, that he gets penalised.” This is ridiculous and so wrong when Hamilton has been given way more suspended penalties than anyone else and gotten away with multiple lane changing blocking moves many times when others get called out for one extra change of direction.
If racing with these cars is too hard at Monaco, why don’t we design a different spec car for street circuits, like they do in Indy, have a second homologated car (chassis) at the beginning of the season that is 10% smaller, in width and 15% smaller in length or something and reduce the size of the car to enable more room on the circuit. Look back at the size of older F1 cars and how they can drive 3 wide into corners. I my opinion the current cars as as wide as they are to enable more advantage from aero devices, so force them to be narrower and shorter for street circuits, cut the aero devices further for streets and make it a glorified GP2 race with the best drivers of the world. I don’t think it is a terrible idea, just needs some tweaking, but of course none of the teams can afford to develop a second car. In response I say, implement the rule in 2 years time, also them to work on the 2nd car slowly and have them homologated before the start of the season and allow zero development on the street car until the next year.
If the inside of Ste Devote was armco I doubt Hamilton would have tried that move, he only had the benefit of interior runoff that gives the impression of more room to the chasing driver.
I wonder if it was significant that the driver assisting the stewards was Allan McNish? He has raced for several years in Le Mans Series races in Europe and America and those series are very strict about handing out penalties for what is regarded as avoidable contact. It certainly looked to me as thought ALMS standards for judging these incidents were being used.
You’re killing me with that photo.
Hi Joe,
Please don’t ban Jo Torrent. Agree or disagree, Jo Torrent makes excellent arguments not only hear but also on the James Allen site.
I just don’t think Jo appreciates being disrespected as a commentator. Although I don’t condone insults, disrespecting fans for having different opinons doesn’t make you right.
And as for not having a blog (as mentioned by some other commentator) – so what?
Most fans don’t have blogs yet they need to be heard which is why FOTA and James Allen hold Fan Forums without the qualification to operate a blog.
They get it, so maybe everybody else could get with the program and embrace the fans.
They may not attend the races, but they watch them and there is enough trustworthy data sources to make an informed opinion worth respecting.
Randy,
I have made no suggestion that I would ban him. I just want sensible intelligent comment – and I don’t always get it.
I’d like to address your comments about the track itself. I hope I’m not coming up with a thought that’s already been discussed a ton already, but during Monaco qually, where people as usual complained that you can’t pass there, and Mr. Jordan talked about the danger of the tunnel exit not really being adequately addressed by the race organizers after years — I wondered what people would say about this track if it had been on the calendar for only the past few years. I reckon the sour comments about Valencia would pale in comparison to the heat Monaco would get. To me, Monaco’s a throw-away event. It’s there for the glamor and history, but not for the race where today’s cars are too big and too fast for the track. Unfortunately, this glamor parade hurts people too, like Perez.
@ Jon – ‘he never had his wheel in front’ ….neither did Hill or Villeneuve when Schumacher turned into them….yet I think we all agree Schumacher was to blame for those incidents. Strange isn’t it.
What is this notion of thinking cars must be in front or at least level with another to even be allowed to attempt an overtake. If this were the case you would never see an overtake in Monaco, and very few on other tracks. All we’d ever see are DRS passes like in Turkey.
Thanks Joe. The request was actually in response to Phil’s request. But yes, I share your frustration as the blog operator having to receive comments that are ‘outside the bounds’ of blog commenting. I guess it’s like elections, people are entitle to have opinions and vote – but they’re not entitled to their own facts.
Alonso’s statement is what makes him a once in a generation driver. The skill, the mental capacity, and the killer instinct and will to win. Do I like him? No…not really, but I know greatness when I see it. Vettel is learning this as well. He used to race off into the sunset and use up his car. Now he just paces himself. Scary really….Vettel could conceivably win 18/19 or 17/18.
Joe,
I thought that you would never publish my 1st post and that’s why I’ve been harsh in it while trying to be funny in the same time. I see that you noticed the harsh side and less the funny one.
I really respect both your work and the fact that you allow fans to either criticize you or back you.
There are sides in the F1 world (politics, economic plus the history of the sport) where you are absolutely unchallenged and in that respect I fully respect you even if you don’t need either my kind remarks or my respect.
Just this week I #FF your article about Fangio in Cuba which is a pure pleasure to read both the story and the writing.
On the other hand, I rarely share your analysis of racing which looks to me (I might be wrong) very biased rarely objective. The proof of that is that by reading your comments most of the readers (at least the ones as smart as myself) know that you are a fan of Liuzzi and Hamilton which is fine.
The problem is, in my humble opinion, is that your opinions deeply affect your reports. For those who share your opinions it must be a blessing, for those who don’t a nightmare.
To conclude, I still think that this blog together with jamesallenonf1 are what is best in Formula 1 online media. Et comme disent les Français celui qui aime bien châtie bien.
Jo Torrent,
I do not might people disagreeing with me. It is simply how they express that difference of opinion. Insult me and I will punch back. Treat me with respect and I will be happy to discuss things. My opinions are my opinions and if people think they are biased then so be it. I don’t think they are.
@thevillainf1
You may want to consider re-watching the 1997 incident.
re: Lewis twitter: if it’s really him, this is what he said
2 Massa & Maldonado, with the greatest respect I apologise if I offended u. Both of u r fantastic drivers who I regard highly.
Nobody seems to be reporting this. just the negative off the cuff comments after the race
J
While I don’t know which side to take, I agree that Hamilton went a little over the fance with his comments. But it isn’t Lewis alone who loses his cool. Alonso famously lost his temper after last year’s Valencia race and people tend to forget it. I know Hamilton shouldn’t have made racist statements but this shows that Formula 1 cars are raced by humans and not robots. Getting emotional is a part of motor racing, and we don’t want PR savvy drivers who say only what they’re told to say by their team’s PR department.
Drivers like Senna, Piquet, Prost, Montoya, Alonso and Hamilton lend a human touch to the sport. At least F1 drivers aren’t as childish as the bloated ego-filled NASCAR drivers who keep bumping into each other or turning the other around and get away with it. Those guys should actually be sent to rehab centers. F1 drivers are more mature, it’s just that in the heat of the moment they say something. Lewis apologized sincerely later.
Crikey this post saw some action!
I dont think I know a driver that polarises opinion as much as Lewis does, he really is a marmite driver.
Just saw the post on driver positions with still images. And still people can’t agree, and there isn’t much grey area either. “Ah yes this confirms he was totally wrong/right”
I dont think people get that truly great moments in sport have to be about risk. That’s why it’s so special when it comes off.
The other thing that anything about Lewis is it really drags in the knuckle-headed posters (both for and against). Although some of your replies did make me laugh.
But Joe I would say you are definitely wrong on one point.
When you say you think the two best drivers are Lewis & Alonso neither of them are as good as Jo Torrent. From his confident/arrogant posts he’s the best driver the world has never seen! Haha
Thanks Martyn B but I am not a good driver.
It’s not like LH was the only one passing other cars. He was just he just chose the wrong time in two cases by being too aggressive and expecting the other “competitors” to just give up. Reading this blog reminds me again that it’s easier to prove a point by only discussing the facts that prove the point. Let’s look at the other passes and why didn’t they turn into crashes like LH’s as a counter point.
I think LH is one of the best drivers in the field but he needs to get over his feelings of entitlement. He lucked out and barely won a championship on the final lap. Get over it and drive like you’re after your first instead of blaming everyone and everything else for your failings. The statement in his post-Monaco interview that bothered me most is that he said the everyone tunes in to watch “me” race. He needs to grow up and be the driver he can be. I think he’s listening to too many people who are just feeding him these excuses to coddle his ego. Maybe he needs his dad back as manager.
Joe – Out of interest, what would your opinion of Maldonado have been if he had been able to defend his position for the rest of the race?
Adrian,
I think Maldonado is quick but may not have much capacity left for analysis…
regarding the LH incident and his dual unsuccessful attempts at passing it seems as though people have forgotten that he has ‘form’ in this area.
i recall in singapore not so long ago he attempted a similar move on webber and he finished up in the wall. he seriously dissed on webber but later had to apologise and retract, taking full responsibility for an ill timed move.
all drivers, from time to time, make errors of judgement and hamilton is no exception. the smart ones learn and modify/mold their skills. i expected hamilton to have understood this but apparently he has not taken it all on board. it is sheer arrogance to expect others to make room when they are not obliged to.
sorry to double dip but i have a question for joe. consider this a hypothetical based on the massa incident….. hamilton is bunched up behind webber [as massa was ] and maldonado sees what he thinks is an opportunity and he goes for a position that simply is not there and he takes hamilton out.
would you support maldonado to same extent as you are supporting hamilton?