The recent talk of F1 engines got me thinking about who will be using what engines in 2014 (or whenever it is that the new Formula 1 begins). One can say that there is not much doubt that Ferrari will use Ferrari and Mercedes Mercedes, which sort of makes sense…
Red Bull will logically go on using Renault as the relationship has been very successful, even though Renault does not get much coverage as the name is rather hidden under Infiniti stickers. There has long been talk of a deal with Volkswagen but several teams have been chasing that without much success. The signs are that Lotus and Williams will be the other partners of the French company, while the future deal with Lotus Renault GP (aka the old Renault F1 team) is far from clear.
Ferrari will presumably keep its usual coterie of Sauber and Toro Rosso and does not want to do more, while Mercedes is rumoured to be discussing engine supply deals with Marussia Virgin Racing and Force India may get a new supply deal if the money keeps appearing on a regular basis as it is a good place for Mercedes to train up young drivers. Mercedes is supposed to be supplying McLaren as well, although the word is that the Stuttgart company wants a pile of money for engines in the future, which is not something that McLaren is used to having to pay for… One might add, however, that a continued Mercedes deal makes no real sense for either party as McLaren is building its own road car engines and needs eventually to have its own racing ones as well. It can hardly use Ferrari engines and Renault is not really the right image, so it is fair to say that McLaren is on the lookout for something else. From the Mercedes point of view, it is not a good idea to have McLaren regularly beating the factory Mercedes team. This does not look good to the bean counters with fancy suits in Stuttgart.
Cosworth and PURE are shopping for teams. Although the folk at Cosworth are talking up the future, the one element missing from the picture seems to be horse-choking wedges of money and with investment needed NOW they must decide if they are willing to take risks. There is an interesting relationship between Judd and Group Lotus, the nominal sponsor of Lotus Renault GP, with plans for a Lotus engine in IndyCar. That is an interesting idea but an F1 engine is a rather bigger undertaking and Group Lotus might not be wise to spend its piles of bank loans on developing an F1 engine.
One scenario that has often been discussed is the idea of another takeover of Cosworth by a manufacturer (the previous one having been Ford) and there has been some speculation that McLaren might go down that route, a move that could be either be done officially with a purchase, or unofficially by poaching all the good people and housing them in a new facility, with the longterm goal being a McLaren F1 engine. This has to be the next major ambition of the company, even if short-term funding is a bit of an issue because of all the money that has been sunk into the MP4-12C road car. This seems to be selling well but it may be a few more years before McLaren is ready to properly invest in an F1 engine programme. So what is the best thing to do?
Odd though it might seem, PURE could be a good option. Behind Craig Pollock lurks the French government, which is keen to snuffle up as much new technology as can be developed by its boffins in the “Val de Silicone” to the south-west of Paris, where there is a serious cluster of high technology companies such as Airbus and Snecma, which sounds like a nasty sneezing accident, but is actually a topline engine company, which grew out of the splendidly-named Gnome & Rhone company. Snecma was merged with electronics firm Sagem a few years ago to create the fragrantly-named Safran. Also in the area is the Renault Technocentre and the vast CEA nuclear research centre at Saclay, not to mention Renault Sport F1, Citroen Sport and ONERA (the Office National d’Etudes et de Recherches Aérospatiales) at Meudon where they design rockets and such things.
Given this amount of brainpower and a few intelligent hirings, PURE should be able to produce a decent engine and this can be badged by any of the customers, so it could be that McLaren will look to PURE as an interim stage before moving on to its own engines in the mid-term.
Group Lotus might also like the idea of this route and any new manufacturer might also like to hide behind such a project, as Mercedes did with Ilmor 20 years ago.
The other things that should be considered is a return to the sport of Honda. That may not happen in the short term but the new rules are just the sort of thing to get them excited at Honda R&D. The recent earthquake and tsunami has done a lot of damage to the Japanese economy and so things may be delayed but one should not overlook the possibility. The other thing worth considering is the potential for new engines from the developing world, or at least money to fund old world projects. One can see a good case for such a deal involving Jaguar (now an Indian company), while one can imagine that there are Chinese and Middle Eastern folk who would have similar ambitions, particularly as the need for new hybrid/electric technology is a great opportunity for newcomers to make an impression on the world’s car market.











China is good in developing hi-tech stuff like invisible fighter jets, aircraft carriers, space ships and rockets but … only after they get their hand on existing ones developed by someone else. And as at the moment there is no ready made and available new generation F1 engine out there I would not expect much to come from China car people anytime soon.
Wolf,
History relates that it does not take long for clever people in China to reverse engineer anything, usually with improvements built in…
Joe- don’t Mercedes have a deal with McLaren to supply them with engines until 2015 as part of their severence deal?
“Snecma, which sounds like a nasty sneezing accident, but is actually a topline engine company, which grew out of the splendidly-named Gnome & Rhone company. Snecma was merged with electronics firm Sagem a few years ago to create the fragrantly-named Safran”.
Pure gold Joe!
I did wonder if there was a possibility of a Williams – Jaguar deal in the offing at some point in the future after they signed the deal to build that hybrid supercar thingie…
That would be the ultimate British Superteam, exactly representing contemporary British industry and society, wouldn’t it – owned by Indians and bankers….
Presumably Toyota’s engine facility is still functioning in some shape or form? Whilst variable in performance during the time in F1, if I was Ron Dennis or Danny Bahar, I’d probably prefer to put my money into them rather than PURE. I’m sure Ron remembers the last new French F1 engine he teamed up with, and the political as well as technical headaches that came with it…
Isn’t the Group Lotus Indycar engine being made by Judd not Cosworth? I recall reading an article stating this was preferred as Cosworth is a bigger name and would overshadow the Lotus side. I thought this was ridiculous since they have a bond in road cars. Why not use both as a partnership, Lotus powered by Cosworth for the Road and Track…it advertises itself…such strange decisions being made.
Benajmin,
Not that I know of, but I don’t concentrate on that
I really hope Williams stay with Cosworth if F1 stays with the V8s. Whilst I’m unaware of the exact competitive characteristics of the the engine, they seem like two like minded companies that compliment each other.
roadle,
F1 is not going to stay with V8s.
Joe, you often comment that McLaren must make their own F1 engine to tie in with their road car operations, but why? To me it doesn’t make a lot of sense.
The link between the two is the McLaren brand and their technology as a whole, not using the same engine in their road & racing cars.
The McLaren F1 road car used a BMW engine, but Honda (who supplied the F1 engines when the road car was being designed, even though they had quit by the time it was launched) didn’t see it as a problem. Peugeot, who supplied F1 engines in ’94 didn’t see it as a problem, and when Mercedes started to supply F1 engines in ’95 they didn’t see it as a problem either – even when McLaren won Le Mans that year with BMW power.
So why ‘must’ McLaren move away from Mercedes? Why is producing their own F1 engine ‘the only choice’?
If the Mercedes team is being embarrassed on track by McLaren, then surely the best option is for Ross Brawn & co to up their game and beat them, not withdraw engine supply and run with their tail between their legs?
Besides, Mercedes still get some glory when McLaren win…
For McLaren surely the best option is to have the best engine available, no matter where it comes from. Even if McLaren have to pay more money to Mercedes than they have in the past, surely the benefits of winning with that engine will more than pay for it. Better to have an expensive engine and win the title than to have a cheaper engine but fall down the pecking order. Just ask Williams
And given the fixed costs of designing and manufacturing a new engine, wouldn’t McLaren going it alone ultimately cost more than buying engines from Mercedes anyway? After all isn’t this why engine manufacturers want to supply lots of teams – to spread out the fixed costs and make each engine cheaper overall. This is why Renault are looking to supply Williams in addition to Red Bull, Lotus and (probably) their own team. Unless McLaren supply their own engines to at least 2 other teams then they will have to bear all of the fixed costs themselves, and it will surely be cheaper and better to stick with Mercedes anyway, even if the price goes up.
Seriously? Still no mention of Hyundai? Even though they now have a GP in their country, and have money to throw around. They invest heavily in tennis.
I would have thought that Mr Parr/Williams would be banging on their door. Even Virgin.
Volsky have made it clear that Le Mans is their bag, and F1 aint for them.
Peugot comeback?
Citroen have had great success in WRC lately. F1 would definatley give them greater column inches.
But the French arnt likely to be back in full, until they get a GP again.
Joe,
I really like the sound of McLaren buying Cosworth. That would be a real sound, long term investment. Could McLaren then also become an engine supplier?
Whatever happens, I’m looking forward to the new formula starting!
McClaren – Cosworth?
See Mercedes – Ilmor
Same type of deal although by the time Mercedes got hold of Ilmor they were only supplying engines to …… McClaren!
Personally I’d not be unhappy to see a McLaren-Honda deal for engines….
I remember reading about the parting of the ways between McL and Mercedes when McL did their road car. That’s, what, 2/3 years ago now at least. So in a way, I’m surprised that if McL saw the way forward as doing their own engine, they haven’t started. And we’re all agreed that they haven’t, aren’t we ? So they must have some other solution up their sleeves. Um. Mustn’t they ?
The Lotus/Judd in INDYCAR was announced last month. It’s highly peculiar as Lotus is with KV Racing in INDYCAR and Cosworth owner Kevin Kalkhovan is the K in KV Racing. Personally, I think that Lotus saying they didn’t want to be associated with Cosworth for fear of being overshadowed, is hogwash.The rumor mill here is buzzing that the reason for this is that Cosworth is working with another manufacturer as a 2013 entry into INDYCAR.
http://www.racer.com/lotus-confirms-indycar-v6-turbo-engine-to-be-built-by-judd/article/202716/
Hi Joe,
I feel the need to be pernickity as you made me laugh into my coffee with a simple error, “Val de Silicone”, which I know was just a bit of lighthearted Franglais, with reference to the California megacomplex.
But it’s “Silicon”, not “Silicone”. Silicone is the organic compound used for flexible kitchenware and breast implants. Silicon is the metal used in electronics.
You could have gone whole hog and risked Silicium, of course
Stuart
In French? I think it would be with a “e”
I can’t wait to see a McLaren VW roll up to the grid. Maybe we might see a 4 cylinder Ferrari for Porsche money now too. They would sell a million of those, surely. If I recall correctly Honda were banging on about a 750cc turbo formula in the eighties, so if we don’t see them in the future I’d be suprised. Maybe Ferrari can go race themselves, build some sort of V36 lead petrol powered behemoth and take down their webpage… seems like they would have a few fans here. And perhaps the FIA FOTA AJCME’s next move will be to deny the existence of the internet completely. Pay TV is definitely the future.
Oh yes, according to that bastion of truth wiki, an agreement has already been reached to use v6 engines next year..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines#cite_note-JAE-17
and in case you forget, those eco loving good guys at Ferrari were working on prototype 4 cylinder road cars in the eighties as well.
http://i5.tinypic.com/23jh24k.jpg
So don’t doubt their green credentials.
HRT/Force India with a Jaguar engine? Thumbs up for a Jaguar return to the sport. Not sure I like the idea of Jaguar being behind Force India. Would be good behind HRT though.
I would have thought Group Lotus and Honda would be an ideal match. Both produce small fast cars (Exige, Elise, Civic R, S2000)
Th return of Williams Renault would be excellant, Williams needs that support to get back on track. But where does that leave Team Lotus?
Dave B,
All sounds lovely… but it is never going to happen. If it was do you not think Tata would be sponsoring Force India. You have to ask yourself the question why it is not.
[...] Source: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/thoughts-on-future-engine-supply-deals/ [...]
Personally I don’t see MacLaren making their own engines. Especially not in the new era of resource restrictions. It makes more sense to spend the money on aero or KERS instead, as this is where most of the difference has been over the past few seasons.
Historically being (semi-)independent of a manufacturer has meant that they were able to switch between the best engine providers in each era. Eg Honda in the 80s/90s and Mercedes more recently. Ferrari and Renault have shown that making your own engine can be a hinderance when you’re stuck on the wrong side of an engine freeze or regulation changes
Couldn’t McLaren buy whatever remains of the BMW F1 engine facility in Munich? I don’t think they need that anymore.
[...] Source: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/thoughts-on-future-engine-supply-deals/ [...]