It has been a busy few days (and the next week is going to be much the same). The race in Germany was a terrific performance by Lewis Hamilton and by the McLaren team, which bounced back in style after a very poor British GP. It was a fascinating three-way battle and produced the fourth winner in four races – and Mark Webber is still looking for his first win of the year. Up in the Media Centre we felt that it was a pretty good race, but then we had the benefit of knowing what was going on so whether it was a good race on TV is largely dependent on whether the commentary teams did their job well. In any case, F1 is pretty healthy on the race track, even if Red Bull Racing has a mammoth lead in the championship.
In other respects it was a pretty quiet race. The rain meant that people spent their time hiding in warm, dry places and there was not much village gossip. In addition to that the Ring is in the middle of nowhere so the number of high rollers and beautiful people was below par because it is not exactly glamorous in the common sense of the word, and it is also holiday time in Europe so lots of folk are at the beaches with their kids, buckets and spades (and this year their umbrellas as well).
We have now started to see the midseason drift towards thoughts of the future, highlighted by the recent driver switches: Daniel Ricciardo coming for Narain Karthikeyan and Karun Chandhok replacing Jarno Trulli. I suspect we will see some more in the weeks ahead as teams weigh up what to do next year. A place where I see much change coming is Lotus Renault GP, where Nick Heidfeld’s performances remain pretty average. Think back to the start of the year when the team looked like being a real challenger. Then Robert Kubica disappeared from the scene and the team opted for the “safe” choice of Nick, rather than taking a risk on someone else. It is sad to see the team breaking up. This, let us not forget, was a team that won two World Championships in 2005 and 2006 and new owners coming in and restructuring it is just daft. The guys know how to win World Championships and all they need is the right budget, confidence-inspiring management and a driver to inspire them. What they do not need is a blurred ownership structure, not enough cash, and bosses who think they know the answers but have no serious track record. In such circumstances a great driver might drive the team forward despite the problems, by force of character alone. Instead we are seeing an implosion. The list of departures grows each month with the latest person out through the rotating door at Enstone being Nigel Leaper, the head of composites, who is off to try a life of pasta and vino rosso in Maranello. I feel rather sorry for Eric Boullier who is battling with a lot of disadvantages: being a new boy in F1 he is trying to learn the ropes, while also contending with being a Frenchman amid a bunch of Brits.
It is a world where “frogs” are not a protected species. Just as it was never easy to parachute “rosbifs” into the French teams of yesteryear. Boullier is keen to put France back on the F1 map and so wants to get his fellow countryman (and Gravity Management client) Romain Grosjean back into an F1 seat. Grosjean drove for the team in 2009 when it was in the middle of the Singapore Scandal and did not do a great job although it has to be said that the deck was stacked against him as Fernando Alonso was his team-mate and he did not get the chance to do much testing. That was tough and Grosjean flopped. We know from GP2 that he is a decent pedaller and Boullier is a believer and wants to use Grosjean to inspire a new generation of French heroes… That may be a bit of a stretch but it is nice to see the French Prime Minister Francois Fillon rolling up his sleeves and doing something to help motorsport in the country that invented it and has allowed it to almost die. Having a French GP, even alternating with Belgium, has got to be a good thing. Belgium is struggling and despite reports that Gerard Lopez will leap in and save the race, its economic future is uncertain. Lopez talks a good game but needs to sort out his team before trying other conjuring tricks. He is not a magician like Bernie Ecclestone.
Across the border in Germany the two Grand Prix venues are both in a pretty sorry state, which you twig when you drive around a bit at the Nurburgring and see signs saying “Save the Ring”. There is a right royal mess going on about the way in which the place has been run and how the theme park was funded. There are several official investigations as well and the locals, quite rightly, are worried that the Ring itself might become a victim if the people running the business default on their enormous loans. Hockenheim too is looking for money to survive. Given that Germany has one manufacturer team (Mercedes), the World Champion (Sebastian Vettel) and five other F1 drivers, the crowd of 68,000 at the Ring was a pretty poor effort. The place should have been packed.
Down in Spain there are similar stories with Valencia and Barcelona, where Mr E seems to have a plan to either alternate between Barcelona and Valencia, or find another region willing to pay his price.
All things considered the state of health of F1 in Europe is not as it ought to be. Yes, perhaps there is money to be had in South America and in Asia but the primary audience remains Europe and there is a good argument that it is wise to have a strong foundation before expanding to exotic regions which have no understanding and precious little interest in the sport.
Formula 1 is all about passion and some of these new regions have a lot more developing to do before they “get it” and become passionate about Formula 1.
Precisely. Europe is still the heartland for F1. Venues outside try to emulate or piggyback on the history and traditions of a few marquee events. It is vital to preserve Monaco, uk, Germany, Italy. (Monza) Belgium and a true french venue would be good but we have lost that continuity now as Le Mans is the only establish track and that is both unavaialbe and inappropriate for F1. The key issue is most of the sponsorship and TV revenue is generated from Europe still.
In addition the junior series in europe still are the proving grounds for potential F1 drivers. If the Series was to become a truly global sport FOM will have to spend a lot more tume developing many markets around the world and create opportunities for partners to develop businesses and competitons that feed into F1. This has happened in Canada,Malaysia and Japan to some extent but is missing in almost all non-european market. Even Brazil and Australia being established venues have stock car based series as their dominate domestic motorsports properties as does the USA. The international markets need most of all truly competitive drivers to simulate the broad interest in F1.
I guess Argentine and Mexico would make sense from a fan perspective, but I am not convinced they will want to pay what some in Asia / Arabia are paying.
Very sad indeed to see all that troubles F1 in Europe together, looks like the sole highlight is Silversone in the UK doing fine lately, and I guess Monza will be OK almost for ever (as will Monaco, probalby). F1 seriously needs to find a way with the European season.
Either it should be VIPs or packed grandstands or great TV audiences, or a combination. But with the current deals the circuits just cannot operate, and that makes the fans experience a lot worse as well than a thriving track does.
Hi Joe,
With many circuits falling to meet payments, surely is it not a case of FOM demanding too much for ab F1 race?
Kan
Hey Joe,
The ‘save the ring’ signs are more directed at the whole Nord Schleife and less about the stuff around the GP track. The people are worried about others in the neighbourhood complaining about noise etc. and thus taking away events due to sound restrictions. Although you are right about the other mis-management stuff too…I wanted to get this in there.
Like you said, the F1 is a buble which can consume all your attention…but the Nurburgring is more about the whole track than just F1…..
Maarten Oosterbaan,
I am well aware of this. I was not writing about just the F1, I was writing about the whole problem.
If LRGP is pulling to become the French team, does that not rather pull against the steady take over of the team by Lotus (British / Malaysian last time I looked) – Cannot see Renault needing Lotus, Williams are a better known roadcar bedfellow, as is Gordini (which is also a bit more Froggy)
Do you think the problem with the European GPs is simply that F1 wish to place races with the highest bidder, but the “new” races actually rely on the old ones to get a worldwide 2 hour promotional film for their [strike]little tinpot dictatorship[/strike] developing nation
Could it be ticket prices keeping people away from GPs? I went to the British GP for the first time this year, Living in NZ I’m used to the high price of having to go to overseas events, but I suspect if its more accessible to you the high ticket price could be a deterrent.
hi Joe. I just wondered if you had any information on when/if the Renault team will change its name? With Tony Fernandes having won the Team Lotus name I’m guessing they can’t change Renault to Lotus? What else could they change it to? I can’t see Renault being especially happy having a team they no longer own still running with their name?
Mike Lea,
I guess it depends on who owns it…
One could argue that Latin Ameria has quite solid motorsport foundations, F1 included, but is perhaps only just starting to become attractive for F1 to come in en-masse. Brazil is the obvious one, and thankfully has not been dropped like the other historic GPs… although I hear it is astronomically expensive to go, even by F1 standards… not to mention the security issues of Interlagos! Mexico is of course the next obvious target, and one can only hope Tilke & Co don’t ruin it for us…. Argentina would be nice, as they have always had a good motorsport legacy, but the economic and political situation there is so volatile they would be more of a liability than an asset in the long run. Mr E would have learnt a thing or 2 in the shrewd negotiations dept from the argies back in the 90s….
Joe,
on the topic of the Nürburgring and the local campaign that purports to want to “Save the Ring”, it should be noted that the facilities are 90%-owned by the local state government and, all Greece jokes aside, in no need to be saved.
What some locals are up in arms about is the way the venue is run. Local businesses have in the past lived quite comfortably from the breadcrumbs of the activities at the Nürburgring, be it racing, industry testing or recreational.
As part of the ill-fated expansion efforts that have recently reshaped the facilities at the Nürburgring (the political and economic ramifications of which are fascinating, if only because they read like a crushingly stereotypical riff on the machinations of a third-world government), the State of Rhineland-Palatinate ended up footing the bills for the new Hotels, a shopping mall, new grandstands and an assortment of silliness including a rollercoaster that has yet to be operated.
One might argue that having invested hundreds of millions of Euros, the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, and its tax-paying citizens, are well within their rights to try and recoup as much of their involuntary investment as possible. The new show-runners at the ring have been tasked with just that and have taken steps to increase revenue and usage of the new facilities.
With a finite number of people using the Nürburgring at any one time, and the number of hotel beds in the vicinity having increased a lot, local businesses are feeling the pinch, seeing the breadcrumbs that have served them so well in the past disappear, or at least shrink considerably, as the new men in town try to earn back at least a good chunk of the money the State government ended up having to shoulder.
As such, the vocal protesters aren’t so much trying to “Save the Ring”, as they are trying to save their own businesses. Which is perfectly legitimate, of course, but one has to question the sense of portraying and promoting a false state of peril for the very venue they seek to “save”.
It wasn’t so long ago when the concensus in F1 was that without a major manufacturer link, you were stuffed. Principals like Eddie Jordan and Frank Williams said as much. With the recession and the 2009 rule changes came the rise of the new breed of ‘garagistes,’ albeit very well funded ones. Now there are only two true works outfits and a team established to advertise taurine-infused drinks is kicking both of them. The plight of Renault and also Williams saddens me.
I guess Bernie needs to realise that there is just less money around than previously and change his pricing structure accordingly. Maybe the track owners should get tpgether and try and pressure Mr E into making prices a bit more realistic, he of course is duty bound to extract the maximum revenue for the rights holder, but he must realise what would happen to TV ratings if any more European races drop off the calendar.
A great race in Germany, and a truly special performance from Lewis and McLaren, I seem to remember arguing on here with a few people who said that Lewis was a disgrace and should be sacked and replaced with Paul De Resta! I said at the time that Lewis was just having a bad couple of races and would soon get back to being quicker than Jenson and winning races that other drivers couldn’t, ahh the warm glow of smug self satisfaction!
Joe, any thoughts about the new court case between GL and TL, as mentioned by Peter Windsor the other day and listed on the Justice Dept’s website here:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/hearing-lists/list-chancery-judges.htm
Any idea what this one is about? Is it related to Team lotus edition Caterham 7s?
Bobo,
It is the same judge as before. Is he really going to come up with a different decision?
Using a Swiss born driver to inspire future French drivers is an interesting notion. What France needs is a Fernando Alonso, but does anyone really think Grosjean is that person? No kid grows up dreaming about being the next de Cesaris.
With the likes of Pic, Vergne, and Bianchi, I can only assume that Boullier is fixated on Grosjean because of the money that he brings.
Tom,
You seem a little confused here. Pic is the rich one. Vergne has Red Bull support and Bianchi has Ferrari behind him. Grosjean is the poorest of the lot of them.
While I’d love to see a return to the old Mexico city track (in the layout it used to have), I can’t see the teams being happy with the bumps or the circuit being able to sort them out in such an earthquake prone zone. Add to that the fact it was modified for the Champ Cars anyway, I think it would be a shadow of its former self.
Bernie seems desperate to squeeze as much cash out of F1 as possible and for the life of me I can’t understand why. Given he can’t have that long left on this planet and is already loaded, I can’t see why he’s happy to run F1 into the ground just for the benefit of CVC.
A much better legacy would be an affordable & secure future which seems to be what the FIA and FOTA have finally woken up to.
@Proesterchen:
I think the objections are that the breadcrumbs aren’t available on a level playing field. Car companies using the ring for testing are required to use the new facilities, so the local businesses have their hands tied. I’m sure they’d be quite happy if it was only a case of being cheaper/friendly/more efficient.
Tickets are too expensive. Full stop.
alexf65,
You win a gold medal for stating the obvious. The key issue is not this. The problem is how to reduce the ticket prices given the characters and structures that exist. The market will decide if the current structures can survive. If they cannot, then they will fail. One can argue that one has a better idea about how to do things and that a new structure is better for the sport but new ideas are two-a-penny. The important thing is to make things happen. If you don’t like the prices, don’t go. If enough people think as you do, then the market will reject the sport and it will then have to react to win it back the audience. I tend to agree with you but the people making the billions don’t care what any of us think…
Did the Judge in Lotus v Lotus really come to much of a decision last time?
Bit naughty with mercaandise, small fine, other than that no change (or did I miss something). Fail to see how he threaded through the arguments and allowed Group Lotus to use the Team Lotus heritage, but Team Lotus to use Team Lotus still
simon bates,
The judge said that they should sort it out between them. A very sound judgement it was too.
Heidfeld got screwed by Renault. He’s driving a car that wasn’t developed for him, development is slow on it, and the team expect him to win. Erm ok, give him a decent car and he would. Since only one driver has won in the same car that Nick drove and they got it through luck (if you count Hamilton failing to see Kimi at 100km/h in Canada…).
Josh,
Kubica is in a completely different class to Heidfeld as a driver. There is no comparison. Heidfeld has had plenty of chances in F1 and has not delivered on any of them. Did it ever occur to you that Nick may develop cars how he likes them, but that this makes them less fast than they ought to be?
Bobo
Could this be the appeal? But it’s the same judge!!!!
If so there is new evidence in as much as almost at the very same moment the Judge was saying that Team Lotus did not produce road cars and therefore could not be in competition with GL thus there could be no confusion which could lead to TL passing off cars as GL cars, Tony was announcing that he had bought a big holding in Caterham Cars, the currnet maker of the world famous Lotus Seven as seen in “The Prisoner” iconic tv series of the 1960/70s. Now GL can say look they are making cars! However the Caterham name has been long and well established in both the sports car world and in the single make racing series.
Whilst one has little or no sympathy with Bahar, there is some feeling of empathy with the team he sponsors, the guys, the racing blokes that do the actual work, (those that are left).
The first of Bahar’s new Porsche challenger cars was seen on Top Gear last Sunday, it’s a F1 (ish) spec car that GL take to any race for you then act as your team.
The other news on Renault was the financial results which show a huge loss over the first year of Genii ownership. If Genii are a private capital vehicle then they will not be too impressed with such a loss and will want out forthwith.
rpaco,
The appeal was thrown out. This is another case. It is logical to have the same judge as it means that there is no need to educate another one in the Lotus mess. This judge seems to just about understand the situation, although his views on the history are a little odd, in my opinion. Still, he’s the bloke with the wig on his head and he makes the decision so we should let him do that.
@joesaward this isn’t an appeal hearing though (Justice Peter Smith threw out their appeal a few weeks back), so it must be a different case – I’m wondering if it’s related to Caterham 7s, or perhaps to the chassis name? Can any of you contacts find out?
Bobo,
I have written about this case already a few weeks ago. It is (in my opinion) a waste of time and energy. But I am not the judge and it is best to let him decide. It is related to the use of Caterham and the confusions that might arise from that. Given that Group Lotus signed away the rights to the Seven a million years ago and took the money, and there was no challenge in all that time, I feel that the idea that Team is confusing Lotus customers is daft. How can one argue such a thing when you are running racing cars called Renaults and deliberately trying to give the impression that they are Lotuses…
Joe – After much speculation and rumors prior to Germany about what Bernie would be doing that weekend I never did hear mention during the broadcast or the subsequent media coverage whether Bernie was on hand in Germany. Was he there? If so, was there any official police/legal business done? if not, where was the little demon hiding out?
Lon,
Bernie was there. There was no sign of any blue lights. He seemed pretty relaxed and says that he will come out of the whole story without any blame attached. One supposes from all of this that he knew that he was not in any danger of arrest. This suggests that he does not feel threatened by the prosecution service in Bavaria – or has more “front” than Harrods. In such circumstances, it makes little sense to take risks that can be avoided… so one presumes that he feels that he has nothing to worry about. He will not talk about all that (a deal?) so all we can do is wait and see. Gribkowsky was a public official (in effect) and it is his skin that the prosecutors are after and, remember, the F1 case is small potatoes compared to the mess surrounding the Hypo Group Alpe Adria bank so F1 people need to look beyond their own horizons – which they are never very good at doing…
Hi Joe,
Can you see Senna starting any GP’s for Renault this year, or indeed any chance of him filling Kubica’s boots should he not return in 2012?
Id really like to see him get a chance to see what he could do.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom Adams,
I do not see Senna as a new Kubica. Robert is really special. I hope he can come back to F1, but I fear that his injuries may mean that it is no longer possible to drive as he used to drive. I hope that is not the case and I wish him the best in his recovery. If it were down to willpower alone I have no doubt that BobKub would be back but there are basic mechanical questions as well. All his limbs have to work as they did before and we will have to see if that happens or not.
I think that the track owners mainly the Europeans are very stupid. If they gather together and form an association they can pressure Bernie into reducing the fees.
An association with iconic circuits Silverstone/Spa//Nurburgring/Hockenheim/Monza will make it very hard for Bernie to ignore them. The money they don’t give to Bernie can help reduce ticket prices and help increase the attendance figures.
Jo Torrent,
Yes, in a perfect world… but we do not live in a perfect world and there is no-one with the force of character to create a union of the circuits.
You mentioned Renault situation but you forgot to remind that the only successes achieved by the Enstone team were achieved thanks to Briatore. Like him or hate him but he is bloody efficient.
I don’t like him either but I think that he adds something to F1. I know about his morality and his methods but Bernie isn’t angel either and he just admitted bribery, so clearly very few names among the big boys are clean in F1. Bernie/Mosley/Briatore/Dennis are all involved. Ok Joe nobody was involved in scandal of crashgate level but still.
As you said and as Alain Prost always repeats rosbifs don’t like frogs. But honestly Grosjean doesn’t deserve F1, there is nothing special about him : a Maldonando bis. More importantly I don’t see a team built around him and given that Petrov seat is secure they’d better find a solid contender for the 2nd seat if Kubica isn’t fit.
But, after TeamLotus gave Karun Chandhok Jarno’s seat everything is possible. The bottom has already been reached.
Jo Torrent,
I disagree with just about all of the above. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It is wrong to put those four people into the same moral bracket. They have nothing in common when it comes to morality. All are different and have different views on different subjects. I can see how fans get led astray by all the bullshit around the sport, but you cannot put Bernie, Flavio, Ron and Max in the same envelope and condemn them all on moral grounds. The truth is that you don’t know what you don’t know and I cannot really help you because of the laws of libel which mean that I have to be able to prove everything that I write. This means that the full truth can only be told when the people concerned are dead because knowing something to be true and being able to prove it are two very different things. Just wait a few years and the truth will come out.
Bernie has not admitted bribery. He admitted making a payment based an alleged blackmail. It is not the same thing.
As to Briatore’s skills, all he did was select a few good people. It was these people who built the team. For that he should be given credit, but to suggest that he had very little to do with the day-to-day running of the business. He made sure that the money was there and created an environment in which the good people could operate, which is what owners are supposed to do – and where the current mob is not doing very well. It makes me laugh when people describe the process as restructuring to build for success. The team was successful. They knew how to do it. They built it up and won two World Championships in 2005 and 2006. Now, people with no idea how to win in F1 are telling them how to do it. Is it any wonder that the good people are all leaving?
I like Grosjean, and I hope he ends up with a decent drive at some point. Even in 2009 he qualified an only an average of half a second behind Mr. I-bring-seven-tenths-to-the-car. It’s just a pity that throughout his involvement with them, Renault keep finding new and exciting ways to disintegrate into a financial, management and sporting shambles.
@TimW & Pionir
50% of the money raised goes to the teams, that’s why FOTA never talk about reducing sanctioning fees, they would like to see them even higher, or a higher % of the money raised, however if the teams were paid 70% (which is what they want) F1 would have made a loss of just over £76 million, 60% would be just about break even point.
Karen,
That is not quite true. Fifty percent of the money raised does not include a lot of the Allsport Management money. Under current arrangements Allsport still pays a fee to the Formula One group, rather than handing over all of the loot. The remaining money rejoins the Formula One group higher up the holding company structure – and the teams do not get a share. As to the rest of the argument I am not sure that I follow the point you are trying to make. CVC took a vast sum of money out of the sport by borrowing against the future earnings of the sport. They are now paying their debts. They have had the money and if the revenue split changes and it is no longer possible to add additional cash to the pile then they will have to take a little pain. You will not find much sympathy in F1 for CVC. They are money people, pure and simple, and are taking money out of the sport. All they have done is feather their own nest. There has been no investment for the future. They do not care. Thus, in my opinion, they are the wrong people to own the sport. Maybe there is no-one better, but that does not mean I have to support the structure. It is wrong.
Incidentally, an interesting article in the Telegraph on Group Lotus’s prospects — well worth a read:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8651844/Lotus-on-the-right-track.html
Ash,
Well let’s see what happens when the loans run out. Personally I think the whole thing is doomed. Spending money is easy, getting people to buy things is not. There are lots of journalists who fall for the charms of motor industry CEOs (aided by the loan of cars and so on…) but the bottom line is that Group Lotus needs to sell a vast number of cars to pay back the banks. My feeling that the money will end up being repaid by the Malaysian taxpayers.
@Pionir
I agree that the they don’t play on a level playing field, but I guess I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the State government to try to reap the benefits of (or rather, minimize the losses incurred due to the) investments into the facilities.
Ownership does bring its benefits, and rightfully so, in my opinion.
When building a house, you start with a good, strong foundation, and build your house on top of it. As time goes on, you may add additions on to the house, however you always retain the strong foundation because without it, you’ve got a house of cards. Regretfully, this is what we’ve been seeing in F1 over the last few years. We’ve lost France. Bernie’s got no problem with axing Great Britain if it can’t give it’s pound of flesh. Germany is now on the skids. Belgium wanting to go every other year with France is akin to putting a band aid on a severed limb. The reason all of this is happening is two fold. 1)The world is in the mist of a recession and 2) Bernie is acting as though everything is just delightful and hasn’t adjusted his series to the current market conditions.
Due to an arrogant outlook on the series, he’s attitude is; it doesn’t matter, if a country finds his fee too high, they’re out. He’ll be more than happy to add a Grand Prix of Burkina Faso,or East Timor, so long as they can pay the piper, regardless of where the money comes from and how it’s attained. The laughing stock of it all was a couple of weeks ago when supposedly eighteen tracks, through Ron Walker, via Bernie Ecclestone, said they wanted to run Indy Cars if the current engines weren’t kept. Getting paid by the tracks and now being on the side of “the tracks” who are supposedly saying they want to make profits (imagine that!) instead of loosing, has Bernie riding quite an interesting fence indeed. However, with Grands Prix, such as France gone, Germany in serious jeopardy, Belgium in serious trouble, and Great Britain always seeming to have a gun to it’s head and the trigger cocked, what is happening here is the foundation of Grand Prix racing is crumbling at it’s roots. If what we end up with in just a few years are Grand Prix only in places like Tibet, Samalia, and Gabon, because their governments sees fit to spend the money to put them on a world stage, that stage will be virtually of no value to manufacturers such as Mercedes-Benz, Renault, and Ferrari and Grand Prix will have little or no significance any longer. It’s imperative that F1 retain their foundation of Germany, France, Great Britain, Belgium, and to a lesser degree, Spain, if they wish to stay at the forefront of motor racing. Right now there is a lot of gasoline on the floor and Bernie’s playing with matches.
Is it just me or has anyone else started to read/hear ‘Lotus vs Lotus’ as ‘Jarndyce vs Jarndyce’?
It’ll take more than a couple of years for Formula One to establish itself in the new and emerging territories. We’ve got another seven years in China and one wonders how India will react to the sight and sound of the sophisticated racing cars, cricket’s their game.
The trick is to know what facet of Formula One is best to present to these new audiences, after all it has something for all the family.
Joe, I share your concerns on the margins that the European tracks face however I think its a little premature to talk about Spa only been used as an alternate race with a French GP.
Spa is probably the most popular race with fans especially in the F1 opinion polls and at the Fota fans recently Martin Whitmarsh suggested that if it ever faced the axe then all the teams would probably step in to save such is its appeal. I think even Bernie is aware that Spa cannot be lost.
P.s. I also share your sentiments on the French GP, it is sadly missed and one can only hope it returns soon, I personally thought Magny Cours was a great venue for fans
Less GP in Europa and new venues make my interest and passion in F-1 slowly decline.
@Joe
The great thing about the KUB/HEI-debate is that they drove for the same team for three seasons. I trust you know the statistics as well as I, I trust you know the circumstances of the one victory that seems to make all the difference between those guys.
I can not, for the life of me, understand how, faced with as clear cut evidence as you could possibly get in Formula 1, you would come to that conclusion.
-
btw: How would you judge the current situation at Renault? Have they adjusted their development pace to the income they are currently generating? Or are they still over-spending (but not delivering) in the hopes of generating revenue in the future?
Proesterchen,
Am I supposed to bow to your knowledge of F1 statistics? There is more to life than statistics. If one talks to the people involved one gets a different picture.
Heidfeld has been a complete disaster at Renault and was a very bad choice.
If anything is confusing in the whole Lotus v Lotus row I would say its Group Lotus’ new car that was showcased on Top Gear. Its an F1 style car with the moniker T125. Surely this flies in the face of Team Lotus who’s F1 chassis’ use that designation style. T127 & T128
Joe, with all due respect, anyone would’ve been a disaster at Renault this season. Bruno’s career would’ve been over, as would Grosjean’s.
If Kubica was there, he’d have been found out. As long as he comes back next year (and I hope he can), he may look back on being skewered as a good thing since he didn’t have to drive the wheelbarrow that’s being developed on a budget of about five quid…
Josh,
With all due respect Vitaly Petrov has not been a disaster. he has stepped up and done the job that Heidfeld should have been doing, to the best of his capabilities. I think you are entirely wrong about Kubica. Sure the team would still have struggled but he would have led from the front. He is a class act and a top line driver and if you don’t want to believe me, ask his peers like Lewis Hamilton etc…
Joe, by any other driver, I meant as replacements. Vitaly has shown himself to be a very capable F1 driver (and since he’s done well against Heidfeld, clearly he has a future in F1 and fighting for championships like the rest of them…).
It’s not a case of me not believing you either mate, I’m quite the fan of your work. (I don’t suppose making a joke about Liuzzi in the Renault would get me shot would it
). I just don’t get how two drivers who were very closely matched over three and a bit seasons suddenly get compared and contrasted as being on two sides of a vast spectrum. Kubica is faster, no doubt, but Nick was invariably ahead in races where points count. (Rob’s ‘bad’ 2007 was worse than Nick’s ‘bad’ 2008).
That said, Nick’s 2011 has been disappointing, but he’s being made the scapegoat for Renault’s lack of development. There’s no way an experienced team would take a driver’s input and go against what they know would make a car faster. Nick has driver a car developed for Villeneuve in 2006 (beat him too), he also tested and helped develop McLaren’s that won championships.
Development is widely regarded as one issue he doesn’t have to worry about.
@Joe
What I am saying is that if KUB is (was?) in a different league than HEI, he didn’t show it in the three years they went head-to-head in the same car.
What do you recon were the reasons for that?
Proesterchen,
This is why they invented eyes. You can see it very clearly if you know what to look for. Kubica is a winner. Heidfeld is not and no amount of statistics is going to change that.
Joe,
The thing I liked about the Tele article is that it’s trying so hard to be positive, with the “Lotus on the right track” headline and all that — but then the writer can’t help himself talking about how dire the situation is, no sales, no money, job cuts, heavy debt, &c. &c. I particularly relish the comment about the new Evora: “Its gearbox is slow and occasionally obstructive, which runs counter to the Lotus ethos of driving fun and, like all Lotus models, the fit and finish is iffy, the cabin materials aren’t great and it stinks of the resin glues that go into its construction, which makes your eyes water when you climb in the cabin on a hot day.”
Joe, so being a winner through luck is more worthy?
Following your thinking, Jacques Villeneuve is in a completely different league to Stirling Moss because Villeneuve has a championship.
Hell, Damon Hill is better than Gilles Villeneuve!!
Apart from winning a race when Hamilton took out Raikkonen (the top 2), how many other races has Kubica won?
Steve,
I cannot be bothered to argue. You are right. I am an idiot. I know nothing.
As I know;
Revenue = 100%
Ferrari take of revenue = 2.5% off the top line.
97.5% of revenue is divided in half
50% = FOM
50% = Teams
Revenue includes TV, Sponsors, Allsport fee, licensing etc.
Percentage split from constructors finishing is below.
POS %
1 19%
2 16%
3 13%
4 11%
5 10%
6 9%
7 7%
8 6%
9 5%
10 4%
Total 100%
P.S. Did you know that BCE’s family trust agreed to takeover Silverstone at the end of last week? (This is the end game of the investor discussions that have taken place in the last 6 weeks.)
Lies, damned lies and statistics. I do enjoy looking at motor racing stats and lap charts. The trick to getting an accurate view is to actually look at the details rather than just the higher level numbers. Too often, I’ve found some people aren’t actually looking at the numbers at all but rather on what appeared to happen – I do have a great example of that from a V8 Supercar race but I won’t bore everyone with those details.
Getting back on track….
2006:
Heidfeld 10 points (from race 13 onwards when Kubica started)
Kubica 6 points (was 8 but disqualified for being underweight)
2007:
Heidfeld 61 points (2 podiums)
Kubica 39 points (0 podiums)
2008:
Heidfeld 60 points (4 podiums)
Kubica 75 points (7 podiums)
2009:
Heidfeld 19 points (1 podium)
Kubica 17 points (1 podium)
If you then break down 2007 a little more, it’s not quite as clear cut with 2 DNFs to Heidfeld and 3 DNFs plus a missed race for Kubica. Looking at races where both finished (or at least classified), it’s 7-5 to Heidfeld for finishing in front. Qualifying went 10-5 to Heidfeld, though in the last couple of races there was about a tenth of a second between them.
As can be seen, Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2007 but other than that they’ve either been close or Kubica ahead. Considering that 2007 was Kubica’s first full season, I think he can be forgiven for not being as fast as his relatively experienced teammate (2007 was Heidfeld’s 8th year in F1). Oh and if you wish to be really picky on the statistics, Heidfeld only finished one place ahead of Kubica in the 2007 points standings.
So statistically speaking, it is most definitely not a “win” to Heidfeld while they were both in the same team. If anything, it shows Heidfeld’s journeyman status, Kubica’s improving performance and BMW.Sauber’s woeful 2009 car.
Proesterchen
It’s clear your a big Heidfeld fan, and good on you for standing by your man. With all this talk of RK’s and NH’s time together being a whitewash in “quick” Nick’s favour I decided to go back over the statistics and see what happened.
Kubica was brought in to replace the wretched Villeneuve for the last 6 races of 2006, never an easy task for a rookie to come in and compete with an established driver with the season so far advanced, so how did he do?
Hungary, outqualified Nick then got disqualified,
Turkey, Kubica 12th Nick 14th
Italy RK, 3rd. NH, 8th
China RK, 13th. NH, 7th
Japan RK, 9th. NH, 8th
Brazil RK, 9th. NH, retired.
Pretty impressive stuff for a rookie
2007
Robert’s first full season (Nick’s 8th) Robert finishes 6th in the championship while Nick is 5th, (Robert missed the USA GP because of his massive accident in Canada)
2008
RK 4th NH 6th
2009
Rk 14th NH 13th
Not exactly convincing is it? Nick outscored Robert in two of their three full seasons together, but hardly by a massive amount, and of course Nick was a much more experienced driver. But of course statistics don’t tell the full story, to really be able to compare drivers you need to work with them, and the feedback from people who have worked with Kubica is overwhelmingly positive while Nick’s reputation in F1 has always been a solid safe pair of hands but nothing special. Maybe that’s why McLaren dropped him. Maybe that’s why Renault were so devestated to have lost Kubica for this season, and why Nick was on the F1 scrap heap.
Not in a month of Saturdays would Heidfeld have put the Renault on the front row at Monaco last year. Kubica is a different breed.
I really hope the rumour that Valencia might play host to a race every other year is false. It should be dropped completely.
I was passing by the Nürburgring the week before the German GP and decided to visit the theme park. I was excited beforehand but came out feeling rather flat. When I look back on it, the highlight was seeing a couple of old Grand Prix cars (a Rudolf Carrachiola Mercedes and a Jochen Mass Arrows) which may or may not have been real, and there was nothing else really to get the heart beating faster. Afterwards I was feeling hungry, so I popped over the road to the huge new pub for a bite, but it was virtually empty. I wish I had gone into the village and used the ‘local services’ instead. I’m sure everything at the circuit was busy over GP weekend, but even just a week before it was almost deserted, and it did make me wonder how the place will pay for itself.
On a related topic, I also went on the ‘backstage tour’ while I was there, which was basically a guided tour of the paddock. One of the things we were shown was the press room, and I just wondered if there was any pecking order between the journalists as to who got the seats looking out over the start/finish straight? Or are you too busy looking at that mass of screens and information to need to use the window at all?
Joe,
since you only brush on the subject of possible races in South America in a short (half-)sentence – is it safe to assume that some place like Argentina and Mexico that have tradition and, very likely, fan interest can’t find enough money to pay for a race while the likes of Venezuela might like to pay for a race (as the do for serveral drivers of very variable talent), but lack tradition and interest?
Do you see a second South American race in F1′s future? Seems to me that the continent is very much underrepresented at the moment with just the one race in Brazil…
@elephino, TimW
Do you think the stats from their three years in the same car suggests, as Joe contents, that KUB is of a completely different class of drivers than HEI?
Proesterchen
I don’t know if you will still see this rather old thread, but the answer to your question is yes, simply because they were Robert’s first three years in F1. To go up against an established driver like Heidfeld and be so close is quite an achievement for a young driver.
When you are trying to compare two drivers within the same team it is important to look at the results from race weekends when nothing goes wrong, then you can see what the natural order within that team is. Looking at races when neither driver makes a mistake, has a mechanical failure, or is taken out or blocked by another driver, we can see that Alonso is quicker than Massa, that Vettel is quicker than Webber and looking back, that Kubica was quicker than Heidfeld.
Robert’s reputation within F1 circles was built however mostly in his time at Renault, there have been many deeply impressive races, where Robert has brought the car home in a much higher finishing position than it had any right to be in.
I suppose if you want to make a comparison you could look at how close RK and NH were in Robert’s first full season (very close), then look at how close Kubica and Petrov were last year (not very), then look at how close Heidfeld and Petrov are this year.
Is it possible that you are wrong? Maybe you should ask yourself why Nick and Robert have such different reputations within F1, Nick has always been seen as a safe solid performer who will finish races, pick up points but just doesn’t have the speed to do anything special. Kubica on the other hand is very highly thought of, and is seen as a very special talent. Maybe the people who work within F1 are wrong and you are right, but then again maybe not.