The HRT team has passed all finally completed all the necessary crash tests with its F112 and is now racing to try to get a chassis together in time to take part in the final tests of the winter in Barcelona next week. This ought to be possible as several teams have plans to start and finish the session later than planned. The team has been struggling with the roll hop test, but has also had trouble with others. If all the necessary parts can be put together in time – and this will largely depend on whether or not suppliers have delivered the goods (and been paid). Whatever the case the team is not going to be going into the new season with a car that is ready, which will have knock-on effects for the performance in the first few races.
And while scrambling into the final test might give the more nationalistic supporters of the team the idea that there is something to celebrate, it is not at all the programme that was originally announced, underlining the fact that the team’s expectations were more than a little over-optimistic.
Hopefully there is now a little more realism in the programme and the team can settle down to develop the car in a sensible manner. This is not going to be an easy task because the team is also in the process of trying to set up a new headquarters in Madrid. It remains to be seen how much will be done there as the team will need to recruit a new design team and create a new manufacturing structure, unless it decides that this is too much and stays with the existing arrangements in Germany. While much of this will depend on funding, it is also going to be a question of logistics and recruiting as there is not an obvious pool of experienced F1 talent in Madrid. There is not much more in Spain and trying to convince other nationalities to join the team is going to be expensive.
Joe,
I would have thought that an actual car would have had to have been assembled in order to test/pass crash tests. Obviously I don’t understand the testing process itself. Could you elaborate a little on the actual process itself. Thanks. Have a great weekend.
Part of the car undergoing crash-testing, rather the car itself. The nose, the chassis, the roll-hoop construction and so on. These and all the parts then have to put together to create a car. It is not the work of a moment.
This video will give you some idea of what is involved with the crash testing; see the F1 rules for more details. Also, the book ‘Technology of the F1 Car’, although a bit dated, has some excellent photos of the crash test process.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/video-a1gp-frontal-impact-test/
thanks SteveH, I really appreciate any advice.
thanks Joe
In my narrow part of the planet, I think that HRT should be congratulated for getting this far with their Formula One program. Many others have not gotten this far, and have turned to building toasters and the such.
Do not misunderstand, I personally do not believe for a moment that they have a chance at being competitive amongst their piers, however, to get this far means that there are people that believe in the program, and there are people that are being paid, to believe in the program.
We all have to start somewhere, no matter what we endeavor to accomplish.
No. To get this far means that they have paid the Germans. To do it themselves is the next mountain to be climbed. Good luck to them, but I firmly believe that there are easier ways to do this. If they rang up Dietrich Mateschitz and asked his advice, I am sure they would get the same answer.
for example if they had actually set up factory somewhere close to an existing F1-facility (or at least motorsports hub). As some people questioned (and mentioned by you several times!) from the first time they talked about being in spain, why not the fully equiped Epsilon Euskadi facility, it even might have been possible to grab some good people half a year ago.
Or even better, go to the UK. Or at least Italy or even Germany where erything is made so far.
Instead of paying the Germans, the easiest (and best way) is to pay the Brits, eh?
Yes, Ask Dietrich Mateschitz.
Jumpy,
much more interesting to me, is how the pressure has dealt life to those involved. Can gel a team, can break one, can just spin out dead weight, or people who are important. On the last one – who is important – there is a flip to that too: too often a person who is or may be key, bangs on too hard against the flow. The “told you so” curse. I’ve done that, others have done that around me. If the pressure was the good kind, however, no reason HuRT will not manage their pain better this year. Now that F1 has a very noticeable viewing cost, damned if I want all the early season pre-action program fluff to be regurgitating just what’s been written here!
Is not true they have passed the chasis CT long time a go, and they can have prepaired and mounted all parts just waiting for the nose and roll up crash pass?
Also your entry -”depend on whether or not suppliers have delivered the goods (and been paid). “, do not denote any type of “bother” from your side regarding this team ?. Just a comment guy.
I do not understand your comment. The reports I get is that some of the delays are caused by money not being paid when it should be paid. That’s all.
I think the problem now should be more likely related to assembly and fit things in it´s proper place for the first time than an economic one.
Integration should take part in Germany now and there´s a mount and dismount, pack and transport to Barcelonas test. Four days looks like a short time to do that.
Why do you keep thinking there is no F1 talent in Spain?, Spain dominate in other competitions like MotoGP, where there are very good spanish teams or GP2 where the Addax Team is one of the most successful team in the GP2 history. Those teams have spanish engineers and they would like to work in a F1 team like HRT. And others engineers from outside spain would like to go to Spain to work, why do you think that will be expensive?
You aren’t being objective about HRT
F1 is F1. Do it your way if that is what you like. I am simply pointing out the logical way to do things. History tells you what not to do, and those who ignore history are doomed to make the same mistakes again. I really don’t care. All I have been doing is to say that it might be better if you follow logic.
F1 is F1 = F1 is British.
I’m all about “Have it your way”. It’s why I like Burger King so much.
Conventional logic once said that man couldn’t fly.
History shows that most F1 teams based in England have gone under.
You should care. It could be a good story, success or fail.
Again with the logic. There’s nothing logical about F1. Pissing away great flipping wads of cash on an Aero exercise, where nothing is applicable to road cars, isn’t logical. It can be quite entertaining though.
“History shows that most F1 teams based in England have gone under.”
Er, well yes. The vast majority of all F1 teams that have ever existed have gone under and the majority of all F1 teams have (so far) been British. So it’s true but meaningless to point this out.
Perhaps more interestingly, only the UK, Italy and (bizarrely) Switzerland have avoided having all of their F1 teams going under.
The point is not a valid one, and the statistic misleading. A better statistic would be the percentage of teams in each nation that have failed. Most are 100 percent.
Noé – most peole don’t realise the sheer size of a modern F1 team. It’s not just the people you see in the garage at a race, the number of people back at HQ might run into hundreds. I have heard figures of up to 600 quoted for Red Bull, for example! Trying to build up a team in the UK in Oxfordshire would be hard enough with all the teams and supplier companies based around there, but in Spain where there are no established F1 teams – people already working for a successful GP2, F3 or LM racing outfit are probably unlikely to want to take a gamble on moving to HRT. Like Joe says, if that’s what HRT eventually want to do then fine, but with no car built and the first race just a few weeks away …
Joe, Has Marussia completed all tests for the MR01?
From what I gather, it seems like this all adds up to a few things:
1.) HRT will probably suffer several DNFs during the 1st few races
2.) They may be in serious danger of not making it under the 107% rule, since they haven’t had a chance to work on any car set-up.
3.) Will they survive to make it to year end?
So, nothing new. But will they beat Marussia again?
and but for one freak result, caterham will again barely scrape past HRT with Tony thumping chest on finishing valuable “10th” in championship.
Blah, blah blah. You have no idea what 10th is worth.
While much of this will depend on funding, it is also going to be a question of logistics and recruiting as there is not an obvious pool of experienced F1 talent in Madrid
Marussia Manor are having access to an obvious pool of experienced F1 talent and they are much better off… oh wait
Marussia squandered the guts of two years pissing around with Wirth.
Even if the problem is off there own making, I am getting a little soft spot for HRT and wish them the best.
Must be old age catching up with me
To be fair, I doubt failing 3 of the crash tests was in their announced programme, and Lotus didn’t announce they’d be doing just 7 laps at BCN1..
Maybe off topic Joe, but do crash tests need beefing up, seeing how formula 1 car noses increasingly look like 200mph carbon fibre daggers?
They are regularly beefed up.
Except the ‘daggers’ as you call them aren’t bladed and hence are nothing more than the same as before except lower!
Only big difference when it comes to the hilt on the nose is under crashing whether it being on an angle will make it a weak point or whether it has been constructed so as to be strong enough to feed the force from the nose to the rest of the without ‘poping’ off so to speak.
hi Joe,
you got a mention for one of your books at http://planet-f1.com/editorial/7545946/F1-Goes-To-The-Movies. Thought you’d like to know.
I enjoy your blog and check first thing in the morning (i’m in the U.S so there’s usually something by the time the computer gets fired up) and numerous times after that. Your insight is great. Can’t wait to hear “An aside with Joe” on Sidepodcast again.
I think the USF1 also passed its nose crash test a couple of years ago…
Who’s going to interview Peter for that book?
Hello Joe,
Are HRT liable to receive a penalty of some sort if they don’t make it to the grid in Melbourne?
There are financial penalties, but if they were to miss three races the team would be dead.
Hi Joe, just got me curious. What exactly are teams contracted to do – i.e. what qualifies as a ‘successful’ (contract fulfilling) appearance? If a team don’t appear at three races (any three through the season?) fair enough, but if they fail to qualify for three because of say the 107% rule does that count as a succesful attendance – thus no financial penalties -even though they may not have actually started the race itself? Some clarification from your vast F1 experience would be appreciated.
I think all teams have to do at least 1 lap of qualifying per race or they are out. Unless the rules have changed on that in resent years.
That depends on the stewards I think.
Same story, different year. It’s a shame the team haven’t moved forward in that sense.
Well there has been some improvement! they are actually going to attend a pre-season test with a new car!! so should be better prepared than the last two years.
I’m sure the last two years their new car was first tested at Melbourne. (I may be wrong)
I really hope they survive and start improving, there is no reason why they choice to do it their way is wrong.. if they wish t be based in Spain good for them…
Marussia is a great example of being in the right place and still in the same league as HRT. good luck to both of the teams as F1 really needs these guys to be in F1.
joe is there any news on the marussia new car? I haven’t heard no news about their 2012 car..
It is due at the test this week.
Marussia: roughly the same as HRT, the targeted the first test and didn’t make it, still ostensibly aiming for the final test. Unlike HRT they announced the full delay in one go rather than smaller repeated delays.
Depending on your culture, that either comes across as Marussia having more competent planning or HRT being more positive and ambitious. Possibly a bit of both.
So I guess this “completely new” car is still heavily based on the Dallarra design, but with updated nose, airbox and safetycell.
Its certain they did not have either the money, nor time and talent to design something from the ground up in a clean sheet way. Not to mention that it probably isn’t even worth it for a team like them to do that now.
No, this is a new car. It was designed with a new monocoque to allow for KERS
Does this mean that the Williams KERS system might make it onto the car as presumably it was designed around that package?
Semi impressed that they have gone for that when Marussia haven’t… will be impressed if it actually appears on the car.
They did not go for it. That was before they decided that they could do a better job than Colin Kolles.
Joe, the KERS and Gearbox package HRT will be using is the 2012?
Hopefully that package is a good step forward.
Williams
There is also the fact that “clean sheet” redesign is almost never a good idea. One from the software world, neatly written:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
(“Things You Should Never Do Part I”)
and I can think of a few, maybe a few dozen, from my game. Sweet were those wasted years! (though we got a – erm – couple of good things from that . . )
Joel on Software is wonderful. I’ve never found the time to read more than a handful of his posts, but as a software professional myself, I’ve never read a word of his I’ve disagreed with, and most of what I’ve read should be force-fed to software development managers’ eyeballs Clockwork-Orange style. So many screw-ups in the software world could be avoided if everyone followed his advice.
Sorry for the derail, Joe.
Of all the teams that entered F1 two years ago, only 1Malaysia Racing looks remotely like a proper formula 1 racing team. I could have added ‘imo’ behind that sentence, but I think the facts speak for themselves.
It just shows how much pain and effort goes into building a formula one operation from the ground up. And while not doing a bad job, only producing meagre results.
It means that – however romantic the thought – one cannot do a ‘JordanGP’ or even a ‘StewartGP’ anymore these days. In order to have any chance to be anywhere near the pack one needs to have access to proven components – like the Renault-RedBull drive train in the case of 1Malaysia Racing or Mercedes engine and ancillaries in the case of Sahara F1. And for this season we can add ManorGP with a similar ‘partnership’ with McLaren to that list of examples as well.
Adding history (that Joe knows a lot more of than me) to the mix makes me wonder what on earth they are thinking at HRT? If they are really serious on building a Spanish team (which is their good right) go ahead and start in Formula 3 or build your own car for (A)LMS and progress from there.
There are certainly ‘a few good men’ involved in the entire operation to enable that. Pedro de la Rosa being one of them, but even he has become awfully silent since wasting good rubber with a museum car at Jerez…
I cannot but conclude that the guys (certainly no women involved) funding the HRT show know even less of Formula 1 than Victor Muller c.s. did when they made their entrance in Formula 1 with the remnants of JordanGP. In that respect I find it highly unlikely to see the team at the start in Melbourne.
“the remnants of Jordan” is a bit of an exaggeration. Spyker was just a rebadging job.
Midland, surely?
Perhaps there ought to be a requirement that a new F1 car needs to complete a stipulated distance of running before it can be raced. Who’s to say a HRT won’t have a Lotus style failure in FP1.
Good news. HRT seem to have had a slightly barmy way of going about F1 of late but on the other hand I don’t see the need for the constant criticism of them. If they want to set up a base in Spain and have a stronger Spanish identity, that’s their business and so far yes there have been problems but they now have a car that’s ostensibly ready to go. Someone has to bring up the rear and I respect them continuing the effort when it clearly probably won’t pay off in terms of results or success. That’s proper enthusiasm.
Having said all that, I don’t know why HRT are constantly criticised when to my mind Virgin/Marussia have been the most embarrassingly ill-equiped team. Looking at HRT’s ingredients, no one would expect much, but when Virgin banged on about digital cars, and this and that, and employed a podium-finishing driver in Glock, one might have expected more than finishing last in the table in 2010 and 11.
I think you should remember that Virgin made a mistake and went down a wrong technical path. They realised this and now have to catch up. They have also moved to a new base, so they are really up against it. But they are a sensible and solid team and cannot really be compared with HRT in its current form. Maybe they will get it sorted out, but it is not a fair comparison.
True, but until they finally got rid of Nick Wirth and acknowledged their mistake, Virgin had an arrogance about them which made them appear ‘to know better’ than every other team in F1 – surely they must have realised that if all-digital design was the way to do it, McLaren, Ferrari and co. would be doing it? True, we might say the same about HRT and their insistence on being Spanish, but on the other hand Sauber have made an OK fist of being Swiss. Fundamentally speaking, Manor/Marussia are a good team, yes, and perhaps this season will be the first real chance for them to show that. But the fact is that despite the shambles that has been HRT’s previous two pre-season preparations, they beat Virgin both seasons.
I’m not saying HRT are brilliant, but whatever their crazy plan is, they’re sticking to it, and if they do indeed roll out a car at Barcelona this week, they will already be ahead of where they were this time during the previous two seasons. I’m not sure there is real method in their madness but as a historic supporter of minnows, underdogs and hard-trying incompetents, HRT have my support!
It was not Virgin that had the arrogance. They placed technical matters in the hands of one person. That was a mistake.
People somehow forget that the three backmarker teams also signed up to F1 during the rather bizarre time when the FIA (read: Mosley) was trying to ram a £40M cost cap down FOTA’s collective throat.
In essence, until the FIA backed down, their business plans and early development structures were all based on a £40M budget. Clearly this will have been revised, but it’d be interesting to know the current turnover of those three teams – one suspects that Caterham’s lead might show up in the financial stakes too.
This is fairly significant on the subject of Manor/Virgin/Marussia, because the decision to go full CFD is frankly a shedload cheaper than wind tunnel testing. McLaren and Ferrari don’t rely entirely on CFD because they can afford not to.
One wonders idly if the move by Tony Fernandes to bring in Mike Gascoigne was the master-stroke, as Gascoigne would have been perfectly competent to tell Fernandes point-blank that the £40M cap would never be imposed, allowing Team Lotus/Caterham to more sensibly plan for a bigger budget. Nothing but crude speculation, mind you.
I think it is more a case that Virgin tried to embrace all-digital design before the technology was quite ready and without the F1 background necessary.
I was quite disappointed they didn’t persist but I think that as a car designed by a team without much recent F1 experience and with no conventional testing it actually did fairly well. The trouble is, you need results unless you have backers who understand it can take several years to develop the technology base to be successful in F1.
I don’t know how much experience Virgin had other than Nick Wirth. If it was only him then don’t forget his experience goes back a good few years and F1 moves on quickly. If they could have got a more experienced designer to work alongside his knowledge of CFD I think people might be taking it much more seriously.
It is interesting that people are so quick to jump on Wirth and call the CFD experiement a failure but when Ferrari admitted their wind tunnel results weren’t matching up it went almost un-noticed. It is only the depth of experience within the design department that meant they were still up towards the top despite that problem.
It wasn’t particularly sensible and solid to make such a fundamental mistake, though. I love the underdogs in this game!
Where did I hear that Mercedes spent more on CFD than VIrgin, AND have a full wind tunnel programme…?
The same place someone, probably a process engineer, said that testing results makes the input better?