In recent months there has been talk from various quarters about using existing stadia as part of new Formula 1 circuits. The first mention came from Mexico City, where they are in the process of tarting up the old Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, with the plan being to run the track into and out of the Foro Sol stadium, which was built inside the Peraltada Corner in 1993. The object of this is to use existing seating and thus save money on seating elsewhere. The downside is that the design is restricted to the space available and often stadia do not have sufficient size to house a meaningful series of corners. It is also not possible to build the pits and paddock on a stadium because of the space required and the need for the stadium to be used for other things at other times. In racing this has been done on several occasions, notably at the Norisring in Nuremburg where the DTM uses the decaying Steintribune where Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party held their celebrated Nuremburg Rallies in the 1930s.
The idea has also been suggested in Cape Town and more recently in Sochi, Russia, where the Winter Olympic Stadium has also been considered as part of the planned track. This creates the same compromises.
The latest idea being reported is the old chestnut of the London Olympic Park being turned into a race track. The idea has been kicking around for years, but the roads were not designed with the concept in mind so it would be another botch job. The idea has been put forward by a company called Intelligent Transport Solutions Ltd.
Rather spend the money to get Brands Hatch back up to Grand Prix standard.
I don’t think that’s even remotely possible. There is no way you could widen the circuit and get an adequate amount of runoff at Druids, Hill or Surtees. The paddock is far too small, there isn’t nearly enough seating to accomodate the kinds of crowds Silverstone attracts, and the access to the circuit would need to be given a total overhaul. The only way you could update Brands Hatch to a Grade-1 standard is to bomb the place and start over, scaling the circuit up to allow for greater run-off areas.
Look to Aussie V8′s around the Sydney Olympic precinct for the disaster this becomes.
While having all the team transporters inside the one pavilion is good, the track itself is at best a compromise.
I’d hardly call Homebush a disaster. It might not be the greatest circuit in the world, but it’s better than Ipswich and Symmonds Plains. And at least VESA kept a sensible race format, unlike the Gold Coast farce.
If there’s any disaster associated with Homebush, it’s the unstable stae of Australian politics at the moment that threaten the long-term future of the race.
Sorry, Homebush is a disaster so far a a race cct goes…
it’s a crap cct, has no flow to it, just straight lines and concrete walls.
it’s all the more stupid when you consider that just up the road is Easton Creek, a proper cct, with a real track, that was starved of money as Homebush (read your tax money) paid for V8 stupid cars etc to go there.
Seriously, how can you call Homebush a decent cct compared to Eastern Creek or even Bathurst?
Back to London, as said, if you must spend public money on a GP, use it to improve the ccts we have…. (funny how no public money has ever been found to improve the lot for the existing ccts).
I didn’t say it was a decent circuit. I said it was a better circuit than some of the others on the calendar. Bathurst, Phillip Island and Adelaide are all in a league of their own. But look at some of the other circuits the series races on – like Symmons Plains, Ipswich, Yas Marina and Hamilton. I’ll include the Gold Coast on that list because of the silly format the organisers insist on using. Sandown, too, because it’s always put me to sleep; there’s only two good corners at the top of the circuit. So of the 15 circuits the series visits, I think Homebush is better than 6 of them (and that’s without counting the other horrible circuits the category visited in the past – Bahrain, Canberram etc.). I’d hardly call that a disaster.
it is in the context of Australian Motorsport (outside of V8 Stupid-cars)
Look at the ccts you have lost, Amaroo, Oran Park, etc. and yet you want to promote homebush as a cct when it only get’s used for 1 meeting a year?
How does that help Motorsport (other than V8 Stupid-cars)?
It’s not like Amaroo and Oran Park are just sitting there doing nothing. Maintainence was getting too expensive, and the suburbs were drawing nearer and nearer. They had no choice but to sell the land – and the circuits have since been demolished and replaced by housing developments.
funny that,
last time I saw Oran park, they had ripped up the tarmac, but not a house in sight (where the cct was).
these are from December:
http://www.scuffham.com//Temp/Aussieelisespics/Oran1.jpg
http://www.scuffham.com//Temp/Aussieelisespics/Oran2.jpg
Only reason Oran got dug up was money (& greed.)
Despite it looking a terrible design on paper- and from a drivers perspective – its produced some fantastic finishes to the championship.
So maybe they did know what they were doing when they designed it that way in the first place?
Choosing the location with the facilities and car breaking components instead of the flowing corners that had no passing.
Only problem was that it was in Sydney – and the govt and some of the public thought motorsport was a dirty word.
Very true this, I heard complaint that people can only see some rooftops zoom past, meaning of the F1´s you could only hear them.
The point is the public sitting too close and level to the track.
Then again, V8Supercars is always exiting (on TV).
Talk of new venues often seems to focus on city centre/street circuits. Purpose-built venues would be far better…or, wild idea, classic venues being revamped and added to the calendar. Road America for the US Grand Prix would be incredible if they could bring the circuit up to F1 safety standards.
Agreed.
Never been to Road America (or America) but enjoyed the vicarious Forza Motorsport LMP1 experience immensely!
Road America is a fantastic track to spectate at. I loved the CART races there and always thought how great F1 would be on the circuit. We can only dream. My experience with street circuits is that the barriers, which the cars must get close to to be quick, totally hide the action. I had a semi-official position at an Atlantic street race in Tacoma, Washington (USA) too many years ago to mention and my recurring memory is that although I had total access and could get right to the barriers, I still couldn’t see a thing. It was awful for the customers. It’s too bad this is all so driven by profit, but we all know it’s not sport anymore – it’s just an entertainment product.
Look how the engineering edge has been removed from F1 with rules that define V angle, cylinder number, c.g., rev limits, fuel type, engine temperature (maximum coolant pressure), minimum engine weight, materials, front/rear weights, wing rules, common engine electronics, chassis regulations, exhaust location, etc. etc. F1 is no longer cutting edge .frankly is becoming boring for those of us who appreciate engineering brilliance. Too bad. But it is about the show; Bernie and his stupid tracks. Where are the drivers challenged anymore? Spa used to be a brave
driver’s track; now everyone does Eau Rouge flat. I remember watching drivers trying to do that flat and not making it around. That took balls.
Today we have tracks like Abu Dhabi that I can’t even stand to watch. How sad.
Yes, terrific concept… I can see it now… The Milton Keynes Brickyard 500.
Already running – 8 a.m. every weekday!
Indeed, and punters can dice wheel to wheel with Newey, Horner, Vettel, and Webber on their way to work.
Although the problem there is that Milton Keynes can hardly host an oval – all the corners are right-angled!
Ahhh, but not all ovals are “oval” in shape.
I visited England’s Jewel once; I had visions of establishing a business there, so I tried to locate its centre.
I discovered it doesn’t have one, just a continuous maelstrom of neat templated suburban roundabouts.
Like most people’s, my visit was brief… after I accidentally found a way out.
Living there must be like a modern version of “The Prisoner” at Portmeirion.
I wouldn’t be so quick to write off the roads around the Olympic Park as being unsuitable. Playing around with the G-Maps Pedometer, I managed to come up with one or two layouts that I think would be interesting:
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5524653
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5524717
Although I will be the first to admit that these are seriously let down by outdated satellite photos, and would probably require the construction of specialty roads to make it work.
I like your 2nd one far better… the first one seems too reminiscent of the current generation of “F1 by Disney” tracks, aka Mickey Mouse… but the 2nd one looks good to me…
Both seem to bypass the local stadium, not employ it… which is fine with me, but that seems to the point of the proposals being discussed.
Personally, I think the USA should not worry about street circuits for any additional F1 races. In general, I think England does indoors better than we do, but we do outdoors better than anybody… so, on to Road Atlanta, or Road America, or etc, etc…
Autosport elaborated on the proposal, saying that the London Legacy group received four bids: one for a Grand Prix, one from a university, and two from football clubs. I think that the Grand Prix, university and a football club could all co-exist within the Olympic Precinct, but the race would probably have to give up its desire to go through the stadium. A corner going *around* the stadium, however, would be much more interesting.
It all looks like a sham to me because the UK company register says Intelligent Transport Solutions was dissolved in March 2010
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/9840ae6e5c638ee66b1db7421d9f557b/compdetails
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/9840ae6e5c638ee66b1db7421d9f557b/companysearch?disp=1&frfsh=1340433774&#result
Probably another one has been started.
That company would not be Intelligent Transport Solutions then would it? The register shows that the company has been dissolved and there is no company with the same name so what evidence exactly is there for this? It should have been checked before it was written and I am not aiming that at you Joe because I see that you were not the first person to write this – you simply copied it from the BBC or whoever made the mistake in the first place. They are sloppy.
Also commenting on the second pedometer circuit, turn on the POM button to the upper right to get the streetmap. Clockwise from mile marker 1 you have a bus station which not only is the central station for miles about, several boroughs, but also Stanstead airport. The route leading into it – market 1 – would also block detours, and is a very narrow road, not a artery.
Then closing off any part of the “high street” A118 basically blocks almost all roadgoing goods traffic from the east. Although much of that area is ugly as sin industrial, it’s a important hub, where real estate just jumped up steadily since compulsory purchases of the more useful land (where the stadia are)
Then you have some really narrow streets and need to bypass or cross or underpass the “greenway” which even proximity to will get you eco attention, if nothing else because volunteer groups finally cleaned up that rather scary footpath. (respect for that effort, but for all the money flowing, I hope they at least got fed, was a big effort. Doubt it . .)
So the pedometer track looks cool. But go have a look what it would have to pass through.
And then where do grandstands go?
Not to mention local planning departments must be close to burnout, and local lobby groups close to a kind of rabid dementia.
I’d rather situate it, NJ style, on the old landfill down the Dagenham bend. Gah, but another huge “regeneration” project. And you have, depending on the wind, either a sewage treatment plant, or a sulphur works. Still, nobody would give a toss for the noise. When I last walked there every project high rise was boarded up far as we could walk. Strangely, the now grassed landfill, has a pleasant calm. Local kids use it for quad biking, but they presume if you’re out that far, you’re hard enough to take no shhh from them, anyhow one for kids letting off steam . . Further theory, not bad for existing London City and proposed airports.
not sure we need any new F1 circuits to be honest. How about using the cash to make improvements to existing gps.
Forgive a small aside, but while waiting for the latest to roll in from Valencia I thought I’d try my hand at news headline writing:
“Lagarde demands action from laggards”
What do you reckon Joe? could I cut it as a journo?
Off topic: love the nickname!
Everybody should listen to Ivo Pogorelich playing sonate K 87 in B minor (by Domenico Scarlatti)!
On YouTube you have only the version by Horowitz, but that’s a bit too rough for my taste…
thanks I’ll check that out!
Whether it’s a good or bad idea would depend on the stadia – the Adelaide GPs utilised the Victoria Park horse racing track, and I thought that worked well.
There is already a track layout at the Autodromos Rodriguez that utilises the stadium. The most notable series that used it was Champ Car. Just as you say, the appearance of the cars was fleeting and ruined the flow of the circuit. Overtaking was non-existent in the stadium. Not a great experience for spectators.
I wouldn’t say no to racing around the Olympic Park, but it would be a lot cheaper to try it with touring cars, GTs or the like. I think the novelty of any racing in the heart of a city would be a big draw and a great way to introduce younger, city-based fans to the sport. Besides, if the racing was slower the cars would spend more time in the limited space of a stadium, so it would make for a better spectacle in some ways.
Intelligent transport solutions? was that not a Top gear mickey take? Companies house shows them to be dissolved anyway, so I doubt they will be doing much more with that idea
This is a proposed layout from the same guys who did the Homebush (Sydney Olympic Park) Street Circuit. Includes Video.
http://iedm.com.au/projects/london-olympic-street-circuit/
Why build yet more racing tracks in the UK when we have a facility like Rockingham just sitting there essentially doing diddly squat all year?
Building part of a track inside a stadium is not such a bad idea- it works to an extent at Hockenheim- but the whole track wouldn’t, couldn’t and shouldn’t fit. There’s plenty of room to make a decent hairpin bend at the end of a straight, which would be good for the punters.
Unfortunately, Rockingham is somewhat hamstrung by heavy noise restrictions due to its proximity to Corby town. It could do with a little extra something though…
but wait…. doesn’t silverstone already have a billion-year contract to host the GP????
Who says a race in London would replace Silverstone as the British Grand Prix? America currently has two races, despite the rule preventing countries from having two events. If they can do it, surely London can. The title of “British Grand Prix” might not be available, but I can think of at least six other names that it could use (some considerably better than others):
1) London Grand Prix
2) Grand Prix of the United Kingdom
3) Grand Prix of England
4) Grand Prix of the British Isles
5) Thames Grand Prix
6) Commonwealth Grand Prix
7) European Grand Prix (as Bernie has said Valencia and Barcelona will share the Spanish Grand Prix)
The rule preventing a country from having two races is mostly there to stop two races being run under the same name. Nobody has said anything about a race in London taking the title of “British Grand Prix” away from Silverstone. And even if it did, the race at Silverstone would simply be run under a new name,
Given the tin-pot tax haven names that usually get used for a country’s second Grand Prix, and the distance between that location and the actual circuit, may I suggest Sealand Grand Prix?
(Examples: San Marino Grand Prix was at Imola, 50 miles away from the principality, ‘Luxembourg Grand Prix’ at Nurburgring 30 miles from the Duchy, etc)
Of course, some people consider the City of London to be a tax haven…
Wasn’t there a proposal to use Olympic Park for electric racing.
If you have enough money, and wish to waste it for no return, you can build a racetrack anywhere.
Alas this is not the case and pigs will fly before there is a London Grand Prix…
Hmm – Whats a good place for a London race – how about using the Tube?
Built in spectator facilities at every station