I have just got home from Germany and have had a little look around to see what is being reported, and I have had a good laugh, particularly about Sauber and Volkswagen. There was the marvellous suggestion that ex-Mercedes Benz boss Jurgen Hubbert might have been an intermediary with Volkswagen talks. I could not find the logic in that one. Peter Sauber could have just picked upon the phone and rung Martin Winterkorn, the boss of the Volkswagen group, rather than asking an ex-Mercedes CEO to put him in contact with the VW boss.
However as everyone knows in F1 circles, the German company is not going to come back to Formula 1 as long as Ferdinand Piech is in charge of the Supervisory Board. For some reason or other, he is not a big fan of F1 and never really has been. He likes competition activities, indeed he worked on the Porsche 917 programme before moving on and up through the VW empire, which started by his grandfather Ferdinand Porsche, who was also the man who created Porsche after he had been ousted at Volkswagen. Piech’s life ambition has been to united the two companies under the control of the family, and to create the world’s biggest car company, and he has just achieved that with the news of the VW-Porsche merger.
The other thing that caused me a wry smile was the fact that the rumour-mongers missed the paddock visitors: Hans Stuck, the motorsport advisor to the Volkswagen main board; and Jost Capito, the head of Volkswagen Motorsport. But none of this means anything. Capito used to work for Sauber, but before people start jumping to conclusions, it was not an easy relationship and ended quite swiftly.
There is always talk of Volkswagen and Formula 1 and often of Porsche and F1 as well, so it is logical that there is now talk of Volkswagen-Porsche and F1. But suggesting that Sauber would be the first choice for engines is a bit like suggesting that Coca-Cola should go to Ferrari because they have red cans. I hear nothing serious about Volkswagen-Porsche. I would love to see it happen, but I have been hearing the same Volkswagen stories over the years and nothing has ever happened. Porsche has dabbled on occasion, but that was in the days when Piech had moved on to VW.
Mind you there are other brands in The group SEAT and Skoda come to mind. And with F1 style engines becoming eligible for Le Mans there could be a commercial market for motors. Would VW have to build the engines or could they co-operate with a third party like Merc Illmor ?
But Seat is (or did they pull out of that recently?) in WTCC like touring car racing while Skoda has always focussed on Rally and continues to do so. The closest to F1 would probably be Lamborghini, but that is not going to happen either.
So far the whole of Volkswagen is more into racing where the cars are closer to what you see on the road (Rally – Dakar with the Touareg, now with the Polo and Skoda Fabia, Touring cars – SEAT, and Audi with DTM and endurance racing with the GT classes having both Audis and Lambo’s). And with them continuing to invest in the prototype sportscar racing with Audi, as well as entering that with a Porsche prototype, I would think VW Group is not in need of any new projects quite yet.
There was a Lambo in F1 and engines in the back of Lotus cars, nothing to stop a Porche Le Mans engine being badged as any brand in the group at little if any cost.
joe, i am sorry, but you are wrong. peter sauber himself confirmed the story and that hubbert is involved. we never said it would happen (vw says there is a 30% chance), but it is a fact the genf meeting happened with winterkorn and sauber. feel free to contact me.
regards,
christian
We will see, won’t we?
i don’t believe it will happen, but that doesn’t change the fact that talks are taking place just as we reported. confirmed by our original source, volkswagen and sauber, even on record. that’s why i am not comfortable with the headline “making up rumours”, which is, i think, not fair. but anyway…
Alas, I fear that you are damned with your own words. If you don’t believe it will happen, you are by definition, making up a story. If you were around F1 a little more you would know that people talk with car manufacturers all the time. This does not mean that “talks” are taking place. I could have written the same story about Volkswagen and other teams on many occasions, if I had chosen to do so, but as the conversations were never serious, they did not constitute a story.
Joe this is not fair. Christian Nimmervoll is associated to motorsport-total.com which has the Citizen’s Dieter Rencken as a writer. I see his comments at many of the F1 press conferences so he does surely not need to be around F1 more.
Christian Nimmervoll is not at races.
joe is right in that i only attend some races myself (happy to meet at the remaining european races by the way), all the other events are covered by at least dieter rencken from our side.
and not that i need to prove a point, but not being personally at all the races does not mean i don’t have a network. anyway, i don’t wanna take away people’s opinions. happy to be judged on my work.
You will be.
I speak of Dieter as he is at the races and givess great insight on the Citizen and Autosport does he not?
We all have our own views regarding insight.
Joe,
It’s all very well to take the moral high ground on quality and veracity of information, but the number of technical errors in the article and the poor phrasing in the above article do not speak of a professional writer.
Are you a friend of the bloke?
Which bloke? Him up there ^? Not on your life – he hasn’t given capitals to any of the proper nouns!
I foresee an entry under the Bugatti name. Following the tradition and success of the Type 251, they could use a turbo EA888 based VW group 1600 engine, mounted transversely in the mid engine position. They could then offer a contract to Michael Schumacher to take him through to his 65 year old retirement age. All makes sense to me.
Wilson
Nice idea, but I cannot see it happening. Bugatti does not have a suitable car to sell to the world.
Joe,
It was not a serious suggestion. The 251, on its only outing with Maurice Trintignant at the wheel in the 1955 French GP, managed 18 slow laps before disintegrating. I think MT’s reaction was “thank god that’s over”. Handling fell into the “interesting” category.
In any case, the regs state it has to be a V6 1600cc engine, whereas the EA888 is only a four.
Wilson
Do you think VW would reconsider once they see how the new engine formula works out in 2014?
Maybe… but Piech is still not a fan. He is now 75 but he has a few years left yet.
The world does not revolve around F1. Automobile companies can survive if not prosper without the dubious exposure that F1 can offer. We are talking about sport are we not?
Ian,
I agree and if only the folks running sports car/GT/Prototype racing could be a bit less parochial and look further than the end of their nose. They could then get together with the FIA and agree a worldwide set of regs that would cover and simplify the classes, so that anyone could understand them without a 150 page rule book and a team of lawyers.
I would suggest P1 – prototypes with engines greater than 2 litres: P2 engines 2 litres or less: P-HY – prototypes where over 1/3rd of the total horsepower is electrical.
GT1 production based closed cars with minimum production of 100 near identical models other than safety mods, brakes, wheels, tyres and roll cage: GT2 the same but minimum production 500 or maybe 1000 near identical models: GT-HY the same as GT1 but 1/3 of the total power must be electrical:
SP classes the same as GT but open cars.
Then the race going public could easily understand what they are seeing. If you wanted to restrict power, you stipulate a maximum fuel flow rate for each class, which would encourage efficiency. Different fuel flow rate for diesels as we don’t want a field full of stinky chuggers.
Wilson
Is this in reference to anything, or is that just a general bit of wisdom you spend your time posting on F1 blogs?
Jon,
The point I was trying to make in agreement with Ian Parsons is that the world of top line racing could easily be wider than F1 if the participants and organisers of those classes were less self interested and more savvy. In the 1950′s and 1960′s, GT and Prototype racing was close to as big as F1. It would take a lot to get back to that but it could be a lot bigger than it is at present. If it were to present more competition to F1, then maybe the Fi Group would start to act more in the interest of the long term survival of the sport than the short term balance in their bank account.
Wilson
I think you need to go back to the reasons that F1 is the only international series to be widely televised. We used to see Le Mans, we used to see WRC, European touring cars, F3000, Sports series etc. Hint, read some biographies of BE.
Amateur FF is sport – F1 is business.
Don’t understand your comment – where did I mention FF = Formula Ford? I was discussing Sports Prototype and GT racing – Audi’s Toyotas, Lola, Porsche, Aston Martin, Ferrari. If that is not business I don’t know what it is. It just could be a lot more if people could understand it better and the rules were universal worldwide instead of fragmented. It then could provide some healthy competition for F1
Wilson
I agree on your thoughts re sportscars. You just have to look at the following Le Mans had in the peak period.
Joe, is it true that Luca Di M hosted a top level party from Coca Cola including Muktar Kent, head of the company, and some furious inking of documents was seen ? you were in Hockenheim, I’m sure you would have seen them
Aren’t VW heavily involved in the WRC (both as VW and Skoda) and SEAT in WTCC? They probably wouldn’t want to ‘dilute’ the marketing power of these activities which are directed fairly and squarely at the golf type buying public. How about Lamborghini as more likely F1 style brand? Next thing we know there’ll be stories about Ducati!
Ducati isn’t the weirdest suggestion. They have experience of building engines with crazy rev limits so stranger things have happened!
Seriously, I’d be surprised if the VAG group comes to F1. It doesn’t fit their current profile at all.
With their plans for dominating the WRC, it’s hard to see VW coming up with additional funding for F1. Plus, of course, WRC cars have far more in common with road cars, which in theory, makes it a much more viable investment.
Joe,
sorry for the off-topic comment, but it was reported that Bernie Ecclestone was not seen at the German GP.
Could this be a sign of pressure from the German authorities to get hold of him (for questioning or worse). Or are you aware of other reasons he changed his plans?
Or is this entire story false and BE was actually in Hockenheim?
Thanks
Bernie Ecclestone was not in Hockenheim. You can read that as you wish. It was however read by many as being a sign that the German legal investigation has become a very serious matter.
Porsche’s racing program is currently focused on a return to Le Mans at the LMP1 level. Audi will apparently continue their Le Mans efforts. Volkswagen has no serious motorsports heritage and does not seem to need any. So unless Skoda, Bentley, or SEAT are going to F1, this rumor makes no sense.
I think it’s more likely we’ll see the likes of Hyundai in F1 in the foreseeable future than we’ll VW enter.
Both have a long history of rumors about entering F1 but at this point, Hyundai probably has most to gain by entering F1.
Hyundai are rumoured to heading toward the WRC in 2014 — should the WRC still exist by then.
Also, if discussions did actually take place, who is to say they were in relation to Formula 1?
This was my thought too. The quotes from Peter Sauber I’ve seen do not mention what he and Winterkorn spoke about, just that they had a meeting. It could be related to a VW (or other member of VW/Audi group) entry into sports cars.
Discussions of VW entering F1 with Sauber would do no harm if Sauber are currently in negotiations with Ferrari over a renewal of their engine supply deal (I’m not sure if that’s coming due or not).
There were rumors concerning various German auto manufacturers coming to Indy a few years ago. Allegedly, the rumors ended when Indy went with a 6 cylinder spec engine, because (allegedly) the Germans wanted to promote 4 cylinder engines.
Hans Stuck presented Jenson with his prize, then 3rd (it turned into 2nd, so perhaps he has the magic touch !)
Question : was he there to present the prize, or did he present the prize ‘cos he was there ?
Didn’t Eddie Jordan build most of his sponsorship strategy on the basis of attracting “yellow” brands, and in persuading even those brands that didn’t start yellow that yellow would be a better corporate colour? He certainly harps on about it in his autobiography, but with him I’m never really sure what to take with a pinch of salt.
I think that was due to the serendipity of getting 7-Up to sign on his already green “Fuji Film” car (or maybe the other way around). Perhaps he thought that would be a good basis to follow up on. You might also note that Williams cars always have sponsors in Williams colors, but that is not Williams looking for the same color, more a case of asking their sponsors to use Williams colors. McLaren pretty much does the same, don’t they? I think it makes a better, more professional looking car, unlike the mustard and ketchup on the orange Renault a few years ago. What I want to see is an F-1 car in “British Racing Green” again.
Just amusingly, I spent many months ~ originally ~ ensuring my company logo would work in any color. Oh, how is that the mere tip of the iceberg! Oh, how I miss fax machines! But seriously, a long overdue restyling is causing some serious headaches. How will it look against such and such a background? Am I being bored with lack of color? I won’t go into the details, because I’ll just start beating myself up, I’ve been scratching away on this for years, trying to loose our dated 70s look, half hoping it will come back in vogue, only not too much.
But take a look at the work of Saul Bass, for one, and I think maybe only his United Airlines logo would look poor without the blue/red composition.
Bottom line, color match is over emphasised in modern design for corporate identity. Try BP tweaking their shield color for was it 20 million? Anyhow Wolff Olins could teach Bernie about billing. Worked so well they quadrupled the budget to come up with their rosette design. This money does not include actually changing every service station etc over . .
I have my own very strong views as to design, and maybe an insight or two, but one outfit it is hard (cough, impossible) not to admire is Pentagram, and they have a very cool and enjoyable anniversary video here: http://vimeo.com/42562659#
Been awesome sitting back and reading the comments lately. Thanks all!
Film buffs will also note that Saul Bass did the title sequence for Grand Prix.
We’ll gloss over the horrible “Winfield” years at Williams…
Talk of VW buying Proton, (which comes with a free sportscar company). Were they to retain Lotus, they would then also have a VW brand racing in F1. A very passive route in, and it is not as if the Enstone team could not rebrand easily
Sounds great, but I don’t see any of that happening.
VAG has been trying to get hold of Proton for some time now, and I do see this happening. What I do not know is what this might mean to Lotus.
It is fair to think they’d have no real use for the brand since they own Porsche, but one might argue that Lotus could sit under Lotus producing Elise-like cars with VAG engines.
Since I don’t see VW selling Lotus – they just don’t go on selling brands, it’s not their style – this is a possibility. But Enstone is not owned by Proton, so after all VAG might just pull Lotus out of racing altogether.
Wouldn’t make sense for VAG to keep Lotus branding in F1, unless they saw an opportunity to associate Lotus with one of the bigger volume brands. Audi doesn’t need F1, it has a well-crafted racing heritage in rallying and endurance to risk being in F1 for a number of years before being competitive enough. Porsche doesn’t need it either. One of the things I’ve heard in all those years was that Porsche would move to F1 to avoid competition against Audi in Le Mans.
But that doesn’t make sense either. Porsche hasn’t been a Le Mans front runner since what, the 1980′s? I don’t see sales suffering because of that. Porsche doesn’t need any more racing cred for the same reason Audi doesn’t – the brand is good as it is to undergo a few years before getting competitive in F1.
And they wouldn’t spend that much to promote the low-cost brands such as Seat or Skoda. There is a reason why Renault-Nissan decided to associate Infinity with Red Bull Racing and not Dacia. Seat is not even global. Skoda is in China and India but that’s it.
Bentley was never involved with F1 and it wouldn’t make any sense to put it against lesser brands just for the sake of marketing. And don’t get me started on Bugatti. Maybe Lamborghini could use some F1 cred but they are doing just fine without it. The only brand that could be involved with F1 is Volkwagen. It might help in their quest to beat Toyota, but they are now comitted to the WRC.
Under this scenario, who knows… Maybe Enstone could find another cool name, like Brabham or Tyrrell…
Joe, I meant “Lotus could sit under Porsche” in line five.
Ah come on, you started that one yourself!