The fact that a video has emerged showing Sebastian Vettel overtake a Toro Rosso at the very end of a yellow flag section of track, where he could clearly see a green flag ahead of him on the road, and there is an argument about a green flag having been shown at a marshals post behind them, proves nothing. One can say that Vettel was a split-second too optimistic in his move, but at the same time it is very clear that there was no danger involved. However rules are rules and should be respected – if they make sense. The folk in Race Control try to make sensible and practical decisions and overturning a World Championship over such a marginal call would be very bad for the image of the sport. If it was missed during the race then my view is that it should be treated as the decision of a soccer referee. There are rules that could be used to investigate the matter, but if we start doing that it will not be long before people start asking to investigate what happened in 1994 and other such things. And before you tell me about the rules that says that things must be decided by the end of November, there is another rule that says that investiagtions can take place whenever if it is deemed sensible. The questionis what is sensible? Do we want to end up with events that do not have winners, such as the Tour de France? That is to take the issue to an extreme, but F1 is a world of extremes.
My view is that the FIA will decide whether or not to act. I don’t see that Vettel gained any advantage at all. In addition to that, any penalty would have been negated by the Safety Car later on so one cannot say he would have lost the title.
I am an Alonso fan but I say leave the matter alone and let us tell people for the rest of our lives that Alonso should be the 2012 champion because Vettel overtook under yellow in Brazil like some behind the scene secrets.
I completely disagree with your comment Joe, not overturning the result gives a bad image to the sport. Winning a championship by breaking the rules, however small the margins are rules are rules. If vetted could break the rules to win the championship in the last race of the season, what precedence does this set for the integrity of the game and the race control directors. Come on its not like incidences haven’t ever been looked into after a race or qualifying. Not changing this result belittles the title of other drivers such as Schumacher and Fangio who all are part of the exclusive club that Vettel now has entered, all beit against the rules of the game, sure why even have rule if they are not going to be adhered to by the drivers and the association who create these rules????
He didn’t break the rules.
Why would they overturn the result given he passed a green flag before making the move?
I agree with you that it would be a real damage for the image of the sport if the FIA would overturn the championship. Anyway it’s not going to happen apparently because you find clear picture on the web that a marshall was waving a green flag just before Vettel passes Vergne. So even if they analyze it, the outcome is in favor of Vettel.
Surely there’d be more damage done were rule breaking be seen to determining such a close run championship?
Ask Germans what they think of one extra-time goal by Geoff Hurst…
This whole Vettel flag/light issue is a waste if energy. It is over. The decision was right. End of story. I’m bored with it. All further comments will be deleted.
Have they extracted all the horeshoes from Vettel’s behind yet?
Hamilton gets bumped and it’s a broken front axle – race over, Vettel gets hit, escapes significant damage, gets missed by the pack, botched tire selection – extra stop, no problem.
Buy a lottery ticket with that lucky finger,
Alonso – pure warrior.
Massa – brilliant teammate, fantastic race – extremely selfless BRAVO – pure class
Ha! Couldn’t agree more with that assessment..
You think all that happening means Seb was lucky? I think it means he was unlucky but STILL managed to win.
And what about Alonso’s 2 off-track moments? Worse mistakes than VET made, yet was he ‘lucky’?
Worse mistakes than Alonso made? Don’t be absurd. Alonso mearly went wide on a corner it is easy to do so twice (other cars including Rai went wide here). Vettel on the other hand caused a colision by diving into a corner which he was originally nowhere near which ended Senna’s race. He should never have been near that corner as it was obvious that there would have been a car in it at that time. If it wasn’t the first lap he would have recieved a drive-through for that alone. However, the FIA don’t investigate 1st lap incidents (unless your Grosjean). He also had Schu and both Toro Rossos pull over for him throughout the race which other drivers never recieved. So lucky is a very accurate assessment.
+1
I think Massa might just have pulled over for Alonso
Just seen the video. If he loses the championship for that it will be an awful decision. I actually wanted Alonso to win the championship due to his performances but its been, gone and dusted.
Honestly, if you cant win in on the track you weren’t good enough, the rubbish being printed this week only demeans those companies and drivers who are moaning.
What is totally amazing is now there is a difference between having a racing accident as a DNF and just a DNF to justify why one should have been the World Champion.
It was a great season like every other year the winner is the person who scored the most points.
And even worse, since the race ended under another safety car which bunched the field up again, a 20 second penalty would be even worse. But, and this is the cynic in me speaking, it is Ferrari and it’s hard to believe the FIA will overlook a chance to give a few extra millions to their buddies
I think it’s also worth noting that if Vettel had been given a penalty in the race then Webber could have been told to drop back. This would have moved Vettel up one place and given him enough points for the Championship again.
(Yes, it’s unsporting, but it’s no worse than Ferrari’s recent tactics!)
Exactly so…
I agree with that. And to go one step further, if he’s given a time penalty now (and moved back a spot), then Red Bull will just admit that Webber’s car was illegal in some way, he’ll get removed from the results and that will move Vettel back up to the same finish spot where he actually finished and the championship will still be his.
Sad to hear the cheater’s tag Ferrari earned during the Schumacher years still bias the audience. If RBR or Macca decides something on their favor on the track -or out of it- its call “the right call”…if Ferrari does it it’s called “cheating”. Ferrari is entitled to lodge a complain, no matter the circumstances. Both Vettel and Fred -even Kimi- could be considered deserving WCs. I agree with the assessment that if Vettel gets the penalty during the race he could’ve finish it as WC, however, no one knows if a change in RBR tactics to bring Vettel back into contention would have meant to increase engine/exhaust risks of failure….what if, what if?
I think the FIA has to clarify the incident and strictly apply the rules; that’s what makes a sport a good sport for every one. Joe ponders if following the rules is worst for F1 than changing a result by following them. Using the “what if’s” as a justification to leave things as they are is a very powerful weapon to run over the due process and kick the rears of everyone who works enforcing rules, and everyone who works in F1. Just to show you the power of the “what ifs”, sit, relax, and try very hard to imagine the case where Vettel losses the DWC to Alonso, and Alonso is found to be involved in an illegal overtake. My gut feeling is that this article could have been written in a very different way, and some of the posts too!
I think people on the media continues to sell the idea that sports requires certain degree of bias, unfair decisions, misinterpretations, or bending of the rules to make it interesting; that leaves the door open to an extra home-game advantage, or like in the case of F1, it allows to help the people you like. Another example Jon cites is football -not the American one, who works really hard to stick to the rules down to fractions of an inch…-; often times, match outcomes are heavily changed by inept referees. After decades of discussions, FIFA gives green light to, at least, electronically assess if a ball crosses the goal line!…the long list of decision problems in football is long and the lack of interest by FIFA to fix them, makes the sport look bad, not good IMO.
At the end of the day, with all the evidence available in the potential case of Ferrari vs. Vettel’s pass whatever Ferrari will do is going to look bad and whatever decision the FIA will take -if needed- is going to be unfair for any of the two teams involved, surely Alonso: the favorite son has won, who cares about the rules!
Having just read the story on the BBC website before coming here, reading this article was like reading my own thoughts Joe! Lots of common sense. As much as I would have preferred to see Alonso take the title, if the result got changed now it would do much more harm than good to the sport we all know and love. Ferrari should leave it as it is, have a break, and come back in 2013 to try to win it then
The seem to be a few incidents from sunday that f1 and the f1 media appear to have ignored, including this one. The f1 media appears to have blindly accepted that the first lap incident where Vettel span was Sennas fault. If you watch the overhead slow-mo you can see that Vettel turned into Senna. F1 fans have been discussing and analysing these at length. We just want to see fairness.
I remember thinking at the time that it didn’t look like Vettel left Senna much/any space – though from what I can recall it didn’t look like Vettel had anywhere to go either.
I think I still have it recorded on my TV box, I’ll refresh my memory tonight.
Guessing you weren’t watching the Sky coverage over here in the UK? Brundle kept repeating how it wasn’t Senna’s fault and Vettel turned in.
Back to the topic at hand, they have a reasonable time, until the 30th, to look into anything that could affect the outcome of the championship, so I think they should have a look at least. Vettel also did something similar on Kobayashi too during the race, which was marginal too.
It’s Sophie’s Choice for the FIA. To change the result could damage the image of the sport, but if he broke the rules and still wins then that’s damaging too if the FIA are seen as lenient.
Either way I think Red Bull should lose this sense of entitlement that I feel they hold. They’re hardly likeable.
Nah, French coverage. They were almost certainly waxing lyrical about how wonderful Romain Grosjean is instead of paying attention to the race. I spend half of each race yelling at my TV in distress at how idiotic the commentators are at times.
Yea Sky coverage are very good at picking up such points. It was very clearly Vettel that caused the incident 100%. Well I don’t watch the french coverage, but I have seen (when watching it repeated) that the BBC are not good at picking up such points (such as the race where Vettel went offtrack to overtake a maclaren). Basicly with SKY they took the best guys from the BBC for their team so they are better overall.
JS, strongly agree with the soccer and Tour de France reference. Making a battle over it will only damage the image of the sport.
Personally I think the FIA at Grand Prix weekend need to “shape up”. A guy in a blue shirt pointing with his fingers at the start of the pitlane during the busy middle of Q2 to enter the weighbridge (the red light is showing but its the very unexpected during Q2) shows its rather old fashioned when the drivers are qualifying to a hundred of a second. Surely a better system could be found? Why do they suddenly “randomly” choose a Williams then – its very rare in the middle of a quali session. I think that yes Rules should be followed, but its partly because of the random way the FIA use them. As for yellow flags I can’t understand how the FIA team can miss them during the race with all the technology available to them. Consistent modern rules are what the FIA should be thinking of…….. Nothing is perfect, but a few steps forward would bring the FIA to the teams levels.
It sounds like they didn’t “miss them” but rather the incident wasn’t even referred to race control because the section of track where he overtook was green (as a result of the marshal’s flag before the pass).
Joe talking sense as usual. I would respect Alonso far more if he were telling Ferrari to forget it and that he would not want to win a title that way…..oh well…sigh.
Are you saying you respect Vettel more because he may fail to relinquish this his third WDC because of it?
Surely any rules should be universally applied and not based on what is or is not good for the image of the sport? When you start allowing for good sense then the door is open to all manner of abuses. In the same way as the rules had to be rewritten or redefined to reduce Red Bull’s advantage in some areas then so should these rules be rewritten or redefined so that they limit such late application. For now though they should be looked at on their merits and with the text with which they have been written.
I would hate to see Seb stripped of his title, it would pain me to see it go to Alonso (despite being the best driver this season in my opinion) and I would feel the rules were wrong to allow it, but they are the rules.
I have seen suggestions that the only available penalty now would be for 20 seconds to be added to his race time (thus dropping him from 6th to 8th and so losing 4 points and hence the championship). A HUGE problem with this is that the race finished under safety car conditions and so the relative race times of the drivers are utterly meaningless. What are your thoughts on this Joe?
If Ferrari were to win a championship through protest – I can only hope it strengthens the resolve of McLaren and Red Bull to crush them in future
Agree with your view entirely, it’s not as if he was driving recklessly or gained any thing from the move.
There has to be discretional leeway in all rules.
Were you asked to name the one flag that always adhered to?
And for very good reasoning and where in the rulebook is it listed the circumstances under which you can ignore it?
Under the appendix H to the sporting regulations
.
I’m sure the lawyers will be be buying new Porsches as we speak.
What it does do is give us an illuminating and unpleasant insight into the mindset of Alonso and Maranello. The fact that he is himself fermenting and orchestrating this says everything you need to know about his utter desperation for success, at whatever cost to decency, fairness or truth.
Alonso has got away with cheating many times before, I believe he has never been punished before. He now believes he can “win” WDCs with a teammate helping him, when his rivals have to fight their teamates. Both Lewis and Seb have lost points due to their teammates, he has gained them, yet believes he could be regarded as an honest winner ?
If it is never too late to look into matters, I suggest we re open the matter of 1994, when Schumacher was allowed to claim he did not hit Hill on purpose… Since that moment, when has another damaged car rejoined the track and taken out another driver ? It was a clear cut case of cheating, this is the WDC we need to be reopened, it stinks.
Are you serious? Vet has lost points from team mates? he has 4 team mates at every race this year.. Torro Rosso’s jump out of the way and so does Webber not to mention how nice Michael jumped out of the way in Brazil.
Poor Vettel gets no help.. What planet you on?
Planet F1, perhaps? LOL
Thats why I can’t stand Toro Rosso. Instead of a real racing team it is just Red Bull B team with its drivers under orders to always pull over for Vettel. It gives Red Bull a very unfair advantage, and Schumacher was very unsporting by just letting him past in brazil. He is a merc driver and such should have raced for position as is expected.
What are Merc going to do, sack him?
He was out-paced by Vettel, the position wasn’t going to matter and it certainly wasn’t worth having a scrap and risking changing the result of the world championship.
what amazes me with all the TV’s, Computers, Telemetry and play back ability available to teams, FIA and Track officials that it was missed, Eleven teams had the ability to protest, looking at the video it is clear that he overtook under a yellow so the rule should be applied, however as it seems that no protest was lodged within the period allowed after the race the result should stand……
as you say a lot of what ifs…………….i wonder what Mr Alonso thinks……..
He thinks “Formula One is no longer a sport”.
I was disappointed for Alonso that he lost the title, but I completely agree that it would be bad for the sport to try and change things now after the event.
Whether it’s bad for the image of the sport or not should be completely irrelevant and not something that is even thought of or discussed when/if the FIA review the evidence. Rules are rules, whether they are applied after the Australian GP or the Brazilian GP.
I think the sport would have a far bigger problem if it were proved that there was a rule break, but it wasn’t acted upon because ‘well, everyone thought Vettel was champion so we will let it go’.
I have no opinion either way on the incident itself, but I do want to see a fair and transparent outcome, whatever that may be.
Should Alonso miss out on the championship because Vettel is allowed to break the rules.
I suspect this could go away with the sending of a cheque toward Emilia-Romagna
It’s natural that supporters of each side tell different things, but I agree with you. It was a bad judgement from the referees, but the championship must not change hands for a thing like this. It’s true that if he was penalized in the race, probably he would be champion anyway, but if he was penalized now, he won’t. From other side, rules are rules, and in fact he gain a position with yellow flags. If I was the judge, I’m not sure what would be my call: rules or good sense.
It would be a tragic end to the season for the result to be overturned – as you say Joe, it would have a horrible effect on the image of the sport and leave a bitter taste in the mouth.
I’d go for a structure along the lines of :
- Racing incidents must be under investigation within half an hour of the end of the race. Arguably you could go for less (before the end of the podium ceremony?) but last lap incidents can be chaotic. A decision must be taken within six hours.
- Car conformity irregularities must be under investigation within two hours from the end of the grand prix (obviously the FIA already test things, but teams sometimes protest about the legality of certain features).
- In case of serious foul play, there shouldn’t be a limit to how far back the FIA should be able to go**. I’m thinking of things like the Nelson Piquet Jr situation. You’ve got to be able to go back and make stuff like that right, but there’s a need for some form of significant evidence (a whistleblower for instance) to open an investigation, otherwise you’re dragging professional reputations through the mud for nothing.
Based on the current rules though, it reads as if the FIA will pretty much have to investigate if Ferrari protest, and I don’t see how they could do anything other than to provide an arbitrary 25 second time penalty (as used for racing incidents too close to the end of the race for a drive-through to take place) which would switch the title from Vettel’s to Alonso’s.
I really hope Ferrari aren’t petty enough to actually send the letter. History will look on them more favourably as gracious in defeat than callous in victory.
** = I won’t lie though, from a curiosity point of view, I’d love to put a statute of limitations on it and see the truth come out on stuff like the 1994 Benetton. If there were a 20 year limit on recriminations then we would potentially have the whole story on a plate in 2014. But teams will make employees sign contract clauses to keep those secrets to the grave and it’ll just drag F1 through the mud if we found out that dozens of the great champions were flaunting the rules.
Brings to mind something I’ve been reading on the Beeb about drug testing in sport – is there an anti-doping policy in F1 Joe?
Ultimately though Joe, the rules appear pretty clear on this matter. As you say the flags are irrelevant. Vettel clearly makes the overtake prior to the end of a yellow flag zone (i.e. prior to a green light). Therefore surely, regardless on the image of the sport and what-ifs regarding whether or not he would have made the place back, the rules dictate that a post race drive through penalty must be enforced?
Prior to a green light, but after a green flag. Honestly it’s been pointed out enough times now I am starting to wondering if people are wilfully ignoring this part of the video?
There’s none so blind, Steve!
It’s over I know, but the flags trump the lights, right? I’m learning, slowly but surely. It’s amazing that those guys can see the flags at all! That’s why Vettel is the champion. Thanks Joe for such good insight and info.
I realise of course though that your blog is also a channel for your opinions and it is this that ensure it remains as insightful as ever!
It appears to me that the current rule in this regard (to investigate after th fact/race) is somewhat pre all the new camera footage available thes days. It is probably best the FIA make the rules so that for what happens on track to have to be judged and dealt with during the race. After all this incident, if it happened should have been seen by marshals and reported.
I saw the footage, and Vettel goes past a marshal waving a green before the move.
Why aren’t all changes of position during a yellow flag period highlighted for review at race control? That should be an automated system.
I do agree that it would not be right that the title was handed over to Alonso over this, however, I do get the feeling that Vettel does seem to have a sense of entitlement and knows that a lot of the time, he will get away with little decisions like this (Hockenheim 2012 notwithstanding).
Maybe it’s about time he learnt his first really harsh lesson in F1.
I don’t understand how anyone comes up with this garbage! How do you know if he has a sense of entitlement? He has been penalized in Hockenheim, Monza, Abu Dhabi. In all cases he just rolls with it. No protests from RBR. Nothing. Yet Alonso and Company are free to whine like little girls? WTF kind of double standard is this? Drivers drive. They do not do these things because they have a “sense of entitlement”. Good lord.
With respect – I don’t think you have a clue what you’re talking about.
With respect. I think he does.
Vettel has probably had the most gilt-laden path of any F1 driver I can think of. For some reason, there seems to be a nauseating level of sycophancy surrounding him from just about every corner of the F1 paddock – Marko and Horner are so self-righteous it’s almost laughable.
I think that Vettel has been led to believe that he is such a golden child that he is free to push the rules (and other drivers off track) and there will be little repercussion. I do not suggest that he be penalised for Brazil, but I also find the idea of Alonso as some sort of ‘whining little girl’ also inaccurate.
I doubt very much that Vettel has just ‘rolled with it’, fortunately for him, he had a purpose-built upgrade to his car after Hungary that allowed him to effectively start several races from the back of the grid with little issue.
Do you have a life-time pit pass or something? You seem to know a lot of things JS doesn’t. Just sayin’…
I guess I watch a different Formula One than you do.
“However rules are rules and should be respected – if they make sense.”
I get your point. but a lot of rules (and laws) don’t make sense to a big majority of the people. Still they exist and have to be obeyed otherwise there would be pointless to have any rules at the first place.
Sometimes it also needs a brave decision following the rules to change them (e.g. adding a range of punishments under specific circumstances).
Independently of decision in this case, it will always be wrong for a lot of people.
The green flag was shown prior to the overtake. Ergo it’s a legal pass.
Like the flashing yellows, the condition applies not from where you see the but from when you actually pass them.
Ergo illegal pass..
The flag is before he even pulls out TJ let alone makes the pass…
For the love of God. FLAG trumps screens. If the flag for the sector is green, the sector is green regardless of what the lights show.
Ergo, legal pass…
The flag applies at the point on the track where it’s displayed, just like speed limit signs apply where the sign is, not where you can see it from.
Take a drive through the British countryside though and you’ll see both interpretations – speed limit signs on entering villages clearly apply where the sign is (or 100 yards after) and national-limit signs “apply” as soon as you can see them.
I suspect Paul is talking about the green FLAG that was being waved by a marshal before the overtake, NOT the flashing green light that was visible ahead of him.
Very true about British countryside road signs though.
Thanks Joe for some level headed commentary on the situation.
The sport doesn’t need to destroy itself over the event. Pro Ferrari/Alonso suppporters will be calling for blood, Red Bull/Vettel fans will say its a conspiracy theory stirred by the red team. Let sleeping dogs lie, the world champion was decided on Sunday. We don’t need to trawl through every piece of footage from every GP from now on to see if any transgressions have been made.
Cycling has paid the price, lets hope F1 doesn’t lower itself.
News just in 1966 world cup ended in a 2-2 draw.
Throughout F1’s history we have all smiled at the overlarge fuel tank, the underweight bodywork, the hidden launch control and the switching of cars during the race to allow a driver to win a championship (I think that happened in the 50’s). I have to say that Ferrari’s tactics this year have reinforced my view that un sportsman like behavior is now ingrained in their minds. Or is it Alonso driving this!
Cutting the seal in Austin to push Alonso to the clean side of the grid was a step too far in my mind.
Challenging the championship result after the race day ended is also challenging the whole process of having the stewards manage the progress of the race.
Alonso has a history of self interest, SIngapore, Spygate, Sealgate and now this. I am not a Red Bull fan, although their rule pushing is a major reason to make me smile.
The sharing of cars in the 1950s was a perfectly legal and accepted (even honourable) tactical decision that was open to competitors in, what is still, a team sport. Ditto the seal issue in Austin. This is pretty much the same circumstance as a team deciding to start a car from the pit lane because they want to adjust some settings. That they used it to shuffle the grid was a very nice example of the sort of lateral thinking that makes F1 an interesting place to watch. F1 is a team sport and teams are allowed to act as a single entity for the benefit of the team.
I don’t care who is champion so no axe to grind. I strongly feel that it would be very poor form to amend the result of the race and Championship this late in the day, especially over such a marginal call. F1 would look awful and maybe it would negate much of the good press it has just had for some great races; one of which seems to have captured the imagination of the US of A.
You can decide to obey rules ‘when they make sense’ – but make sense to whom? I think drink-driving laws don’t ‘make sense’ as I live 200 yards away from the pub on a country lane – is it right for me to ignore them? – no! But they make sense to ME
I agree with Joe. However, the one thing I was uncomfortable with was Schumacher visibly moving over for Vettel. I agree with team orders, but team collaboration has shades of Jerez 1997 and the McLaren/Williams double act. I know that they are friends and compatriots, and it was a gesture rather than a pre-meditated agreement, but it felt wrong.
(Having said that, Vettel would have passed him anyway….)
Can Damon have his 1994 World Championship, please.
So it appears there are two Vettel flashing yellow incidents. The one Joe is refering to and one involving Kobayashi, just before one of his pit stops.
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/8285229/Conclusions-from-the-Brazilian-GP
What it proved was, SV broke the most important rule in F1′s lexicon and in doing so gained advantage though however small or even significant that turned out to be ought to have no bearing on the penalty.
But being ‘optimistic’ isn’t an option, more so when everyone else was abiding by the rule, it was unfair. Neither is it left to drivers to determine whether is dangerous or sensible to break those rules, thats what stewards with the benefit of the sporting regulations at their disposal, are there for.
If you don’t like the rulebook and are prepared for chaos on track, remove it, the stewards, the signalling system and quadruple trackside medical facilities.
So in acknowledging the issue should the FIA ignore it, wouldn’t that send out the wrong signal? Certainly there’s time, the WDC hasn’t been awarded yet and theres a mechanism for penalising drivers even after the race.
In the event wouldn’t SV have expected at least a 10′s stop and go, or 25′s post race penalty. That will have taken him down the order to 13th so no (tainted?) WDC, so a lot at stake.
Question is, can breaking the rules win you a WDC and what does it say about F1 should they let it happen?
He didn’t break the rules; he passed after a green flag.
With respect thats not the case, you’ve obviously not seen the on-board footage (not transmitted on the main feed), he passed the Toro Rosso before the green flag.
Confirmation if you or anyone else care’s to look before they jump in, are the two yellow led’s on either side of his display which will extinguish just as he passes the flashing green (as indeed they lit just as they passed the first of the flashing yellow’s) 50m after the pass.
With respect, before he passed the flashing green LIGHT (which also triggered his yellow LEDs to go off), it’s being said that he also passed a marshal waving a green flag.
The actual trackside flags and lights take precedence over the in-car warning system, which is there merely as a driver assistance and is not legally binding.
If he did actually pass a guy waving a green flag, it doesn’t matter that his in-cockpit LEDs hadn’t gone off, he’s in the clear.
Conformation if you or anyone else care’s to look before they jump in, there is a green flag at the marshal’s post to the left of screen before the johnny walker advertising over the track and well before the pass is made. The lights on the dash do not change but the sporting regulations are very clear that the state of the flags and trackside lighting take precedent.
He passed a green flag at pit exit and was well into the “green zone” when he passed the STR.
Flags take precedence over dash display at trackside lights.
Look. The flag takes precedence over the track side and dash lights. This has been said over, and over, and over and over again. This is a legal pass. That is why it was ruled that way to begin with, and that is why it will stay as such. The whole reason why this is even an issue is because Ferrari is stroking the collective ego of the tifosi.
Anyone reminded of the leaked radio traffic furore of 1997? Seems nothing changes down Maranello way.
If I was Red Bull i’d just respond by publicly posting them a goldplated gearbox seal.
Best post in this thread! Love it!
Have watched the footage on bbc website.
I would add that the Toro Rosso seems very slow on the straight (Vettel wasn’t close exiting previous corner) and stays way to the right leaving plenty of room, so perhaps Vergne was letting Vettel past?
For another day, does anyone think that trackside flags, trackside lights and driver’s dashboard light is at least one system too many?
Karl
Plus some lights flash and others are static, yellow flags mean something different from yellow/red flags and now we learn that steering wheel lights are only indicative and flags take precedence! All of this while trying to manage a greasy track on slick tyres during a shower of rain, with 20+ other lunatics vying to get ahead – who’d be an F1 driver!
It is clear that there is a clean flag waved at the flag exit so no penalty.
It is also clear to me that Alonso is a child who will do anything to win. How sad, just as people were starting to warm to him after an incredible season.
Seconded. What a shame that just as we thought he was learning how to become a graceful loser, turns out that once more he isn’t. He could learn a helluva lot from Massa (2008) in that respect.
Ferrari have just tweeted this: La Ferrari ha chiesto, tramite una lettera, un chiarimento alla FIA in merito al sorpasso di VET su VER nel corso del giro 4 del GP Brasile. Google translation: Ferrari asked, in a letter, a clarification from the FIA about the overtaking of VET VER during the 4th round of the Brazilian Grand Prix.
During the race Sky TV showed Vettel overtaking Kobiashi under a yellow and nothing was done about that. i also wonder why he didn’t recieve a penalty for taking out Senna who did nothing wrong was on the racing line when Vettel dived into the corner from way outside the racing line. i do wonder at times about Berni being best mates with Vettel and also with Charley who makes the call in race direction. Charley was hand picked by Berni for his plumb job and clearly knows what side his bread is buttered
During that incident vettel overtook on a solid yellow (not flashing) which is a red and yellow ‘slippery’ track warning – legal to overtake. The fact that mcnish didn’t know this is one aspect of the argument but if you watched the rest of the sky broadcast it was cleared up.
This incident is different but it does seem vettel passed a green flag therefore the flag takes precedence over the lights.
Ferrari knows it will never win an appeal. But since they are sore losers, they are throwing accusations with the purpose of inducing uncertainty over Red Bull’s achievement.
+1. Exactly!
Ferrari are very aware of the power of myth and rumour. By playing the game they way they have they will have “won” themselves another WDC in the eyes of millions of adoring fans, and to hell with whatever those fools at FIA say about anything.
You need to read the rules and understand more about the sport. Being rude about the FIA merely shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
I watched the video footage of the VET/VER and it is a completely different incident to the one I saw during the Sky coverage on Sunday. The other incident was out of the last corner up the hill toward the pit entrance where VET passed (was it a) Sauber KOB(?). There were yellow flashing lights there too…
No, yellow steady lights, which apparently means the same as a red/yellow oil flag: “slippery surface”.
Thanks for that. (I did think there were flags being waved also though?)
The rules need to be applied regardless of the politics.
Tour de France would not be in the embarrassing shape it is today if the rules had been applied 20+ years ago when doping was widely known about. (see Rough Ride and L.A. Confidentiel)
I watched the race and couldn’t understand why Vettel wasn’t penalised for the yellow flag incident and for chopping off Senna and causing the accident – but hey, what do I know?
If the rule was broken, then the penalty must be applied.
Green was just after the Yellow, same piece of straight, not somewhere else. Am sure the Stewards would have seen this anyway, that’s why nothing was done, this did not go unnoticed. These chirps are from very bad, sour losers.
Exactly, apparently it wasn’t even referred to race control at the time because it was abundantly clear that he had passed the marshal’s flag at the start before making the move.
Just minutes ago the FIA ruled the pass legal, so it’s settled. Thank goodness!
Whatever the outcome I feel the FIA need to act quickly rather than let this potentially drag on.
Looking forward to Vettel’s comments at the various awards ceremonies he’ll be attending this winter!
The reason why Vettel won the race is because the rules say that the car that passes the line first having completed the required number of laps is the winner of the race. If we decide that this rule doesnt make sense then surely Hamilton could have won the race having not finished at all because he was taken out by a foolish competitor from a winning position. And because he won the last race of the season he is entitled to the title crown.
Sadly as a Hamilton supporter that doesn’t work because the rules do not allow it, and the rules should be adhered to. Nothing that is being suggested is outside the letter, intention or remit of the rules and should he be found to have infringed he should then be punished.
Vettel didn’t win the race.
Joe,
It does not say much for Ferrari and Alonso that they would want to win this way. But it does match with Alonso’s because I deserve it attitude at McLaren, rather than the more healthy I earned it attitude. However the rule clarification is important so that people who do believe Alonso should have won understand why (in my opinion and I believe it will be the FIA’s) that the track marshal takes precedence. I expect the results will stand when all is said and done. Doesn’t matter if it is one inch past or twenty feet past the green flag, he could see a green flag and that is it!
I have not seen the footage but I think that if the rules are not followed and applied to same extent for all drivers and teams – that is when it will hurt the sport. For me it really is this simple:
If a green flag was waved before the pass – let the result stand.
If a green flag was not waved before the pass – give Vettel the 20 seconds penalty.
Those are the rules, as I understand them, so let us apply them.
I am sure that the stewards can look at a lot of footage, talk to people and easily find out if the green flag was waved before the pass or not. End of story.
If he broke the rules, demote him. This isn’t the play time.
If he didn’t, don’t do anything.
I seriously doubt Ferrari, the FOM or the FIA really want to try and appeal this result.
As far as the casual follower is concerned Vettel won his 3rd championship in an amazingly thrilling race after one of the most closely fought and exciting seasons in history. See you in March F1!
To screw up a year of great work prompting the sport and it’s entertainment factor will result in only one thing: bye bye Mastercard, bye bye Coca-Cola. Why would major companies want to get involved in a sport where the winner changes after the event?
Who really benefits? Ferrari’s won’t get any more money, Alonso and Ferrari’s reputation will be further called into question and fans will walk away from the sport.
Why bother? Move on and focus on 2013.
While this appears to have been resolved (as all the footage has been taken down it is harder to confirm but it seems to be clear cut now) if it was the situation that the pass was illegal, would Mastercard, Coca-cola etc want to be associated with a championship that lets breaches of the rules just ride and denies someone a rightful victory?
That attitude can be turned both ways. The main thing that would put them off IMO is that the controversy happened in the first place.
Many big companies are involved in the Olympics and, sadly, over the years we have seen Olympic winners change after the event all too often. Maybe that has impacted sponsorship in some cases, but there seem to be plenty around. A sport needs to be honest and played by the rules – even if that sometimes causes short-term embarassment.
Having said all that, the FIA has confirmed that the F1 championship and its finale WAS played by the rules and Vettel won – both on the day and subsequently, so we can all be happy
.
I’m a mclaren fan and was nominally supporting Alonso in the final race just because it was a novel experience cheering a ferrari. I don’t begrudge vettels win at all though.
There seems to be a rush of people claiming Alonso deserves it more. Rubbish. The driver who has the most points deserves it. It’s a sport – we have a scoring system for a damn reason. If you don’t like it – campaign to remove all racing positions and go to a public popularity vote. You can then back your driver like a reality tv show or we could go to an ice skating points for style and interpretation system?
Vettel won. Move on. It’s not art it’s sport. It’s not down to personal opinion. It’s a technical arena with skills in engineering, car control and racing instinct and yes a good deal of luck and dealing with pressure. Vettel is not my favorite by any means but he possessed skill and luck and the backing of his team and engineers to win it. Roll on 2013 already…
+1
I work on the basis that you can “deserve” something without getting it – getting the most points isn’t a prerequisite of “deserving” the drivers’ crown, it’s the (short) definition of how it’s obtained.
The gap between deserved and obtained, between fair and unfair, just and unjust, lucky and unlucky is why we love sports. Because they’re a microcosm of the real world; a small, packaged metaphor for the swirling chaos of life. Because unlike film, where the plucky underdog wins all too often, in sports the evil Empire crush the rag-tag band of Rebels more often than not.
“My view is that the FIA will decide whether or not to act.” Joe’s going out on a limb.
In my opinion the FIA should have investigated in 1994, 2007 (fuel temperature of the Williams and BMWs) and this year. Just because its the end of the season does not mean the rules should be different. Even if he didn’t overtake under yellows, why was he not lifting off in the yellow flag sectors?
I’m not sure I agree with the football analogy here. A referee only has his own judgement with advice from two linemen to control the game. Formula One is technology driven. Do the scrutineers say ‘oh, that wing looks about the right size, we’ll pass it’? No, they use sophisticated measuring equipment to make sure it conforms to the rules.
If that applies to one aspect of the sport surely it must apply to all aspects. Could HRT fit a 5 litre V12 and hope no-one noticed?
For what it’s worth, although I’d have preferred to see Alonso win (plucky underdog etc) I do agree it is too late now for this to be overturned. However, the FIA need to issue a definitive statement to clear up the doubt and put things in place for next year to make sure green flags are visible in all conditions, or change from the flag being the important thing to the lights defining track condition and have passes automatically monitored.
Just being a wise guy, but, yes, HRT COULD have fitted a 5 liter V12 and no one would have noticed.
I must live in a simpler world, after wading thru the above comments so many of them typically biased and righteous, I wonder if you all practice what you preach the FIA has said
No case to answer
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
Sore winners, from the grumpy WCC win to the comments after the WDC, and now sore losers floating trial balloons via Benson. The more things change…
When the first video surfaced I thought Vettel overtook under yellow. But a second video emerged that showed – quite clearly – that the flag marshal between turns 3 and 4 was waving a green flag, and Vettel overtook JEV after passing that marshal post. The lights, from a regulatory perspective, are meaningless; they are there simply to aid drivers when there are potential line-of-sight issues. And there may be stretches of several hundred meters between a flag marshal and the next light. The flag always trumps the light.
It was not reported to race control and the 11 other teams said nothing about it during the race because it was a clean overtake.
Move along.
Most amusing thing about this ‘episode’ is how the multitude of F1 armchair afficionados, depending on their loyalties, choose to ‘interpret’ the video!
Entertainment = 1, Science = 0
FIA have said they believe Vettel is not guilty:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20541589
Sorry if that has already been posted.
Thank God the marshal that’s been spoken of shows up on the video! I hope certain commentors on this post get to see it.
While we’re at it, can we take away Surtees’ 1964 championship? Did Bandini mean to hit Hill? Or Jonesy’s in 1980? I always thought he took out Piquet on purpose in Canada. And 1983 — Piquet’s Brabham might have been using illegal fuel. Can we go back and check? 1989 — Prost deliberately crashed Senna in Japan … 1990, a lifetime ban for Senna for his “accident” with Prost … ’94 an all sorts of illegal Benetton … 1997 lifetime ban for Schumacher … 2009 — lifetime ban for Alonso for Crashgate … and those are just the ones that come to mind easily. It’s too bad this has to cast a shadow over what has been a great season, but Ferrari/Alonso never miss a chance to behave like b*******s.
Pity you chose 1990 and Senna – he later confessed to deliberately taking out Prost, for which he should have lost all his points in my view. Otherwise I take your point.
However (and at the moment it’s up in the air) I believe technology that’s currently available can and should be used wherever possible, as it is during to race meeting itself. If the FIA’s systems aren’t up to scratch that’s another matter but blaming Ferrari and Alonso for an appeal is a little harsh. There’s potentially a lot at stake.
If enough rumpus is kicked up, no doubt someone at the FIA will be woken up, if there are any left not yet on holiday. You can expect a statement that “The incident has been examined and it was found that there was no danger to any marshal or other driver, no action will be taken, good night.”
Vettel has now achieved half Schumachership and is almost untouchable, just as Red Bull are achieving Ferrariship and demanding special treatment.
Yellow flags are there to protect the course workers. Every yellow flag infringement must be upheld without exception. Enough marshals and others have died over the years that compliance must be mandatory in all cases. Chances are that Vettel will be cleared by the waved green flag, but the investigation should go ahead. We owe it to the volunteers.
TJ. you need to take another look at the footage, I just did and there is a green flag being waved and the move was made after that. The green board is further along the track. So the move is legal.
Who cares. If you reopen this then reopen Singapore 2008 and take that away from Alonso. Why stop there though, take 2007 off Raikkonen and while you’re there 1994 off Schumacher. Might as well take 1999 Malaysia off him too, and 1998 Argentina, 1998 Canada, 2002 Austria, 2005 USA…Might want to give him 2006 mind after Fisi pushed his front wing into Schumacher’s rear tyre.
Bollocks to all of it, just accept the final result and don’t try to pull apart the sport’s integrity.
Erm, why take 2007 off Raikkonen? The only sportsman of the whole bunch…
Fuel irregularities. http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/10/7023.html
2007
The 2007 championship is a little…unsettling, in that two things happened to Lewis in the last two races which I have never seen happen before or since: being left out on worn tyres until they’re literally down to the canvas, then a mysterious temporary engine cut. I can’t helping thinking McLaren threw the championship to take some of the heat out of Spygate.
But then, had Lewis won the championship at the first attempt, it would have taken some magic out of the sport in the same way as if Don Bradman had averaged 100 rather than 99.94. Some feats should remain unachieved.
In the season of Spygate, there was never a snowflake’s chance in hell that the FIA was going to over-turn the result so as to favour McLaren
As a Ferrari fan, I would be very disappointed if they would not have asked for a clarification on that action.
By asking for a clarification, both Ferrari and RedBull fans (and by extension the rest of F1 community) would be reassured that the rules apply to all, and we will avoid further conspiracy theories.
It also brings attention to a necessary topic that needs work, the signals on the track and how the drivers get that information.
If something is illegal and the deadline for a reclamation is still valid, I would expect them to claim what is theirs.
If the FIA says everything was legal, then that settles the matter for once and for all.
I don’t understand why people get upset for a clarification. There is no accusation at the moment, just a letter to clarify the situation.
If no clarifications are asked for then there would have been no resolution on the engine maps, floor holes, flexible wings and other topics that required a clear answer.
” However rules are rules and should be respected – if they make sense. The folk in Race Control try to make sensible and practical decisions and overturning a World Championship over such a marginal call would be very bad for the image of the sport.
Is it fair calling something a “sport” if it makes sense to break its rules for the benefit of its own image? I’d call that entertainment business.
I do not believe that any rules were broken, even if it looks that way. If there had been a case to answer it would have been “flagged” automatically and the Race Director would have picked it up. The FIA these days has some amazing computer capabilities that greatly reduce the potential for human error.
As the saying goes……”common sense isn’t so common”.
Looking on the footage on the BBC website, it certainly looks like it was a yellow flag overtake. The only doubt could be if the marshal was waving a green flag. The dashboard lights were yellow, the trackside lights were yellow, but the overtake took place.
I have to agree with Bob. Maybe someone will post it on u tube so that Joe can see it. ATM it is for BBC uk viewers only.
Apparently it is on youtube as well.
JA gives a good analysis of it on his blog ad says that there is a marshall wavig a green flag on the left before Vettel passes, thus the yellow is ended before the pass. The fact that the light is still yellow later on is moot, The game of scissors, flag, lights is on! To my mind the light is a backup device to help marshals and the marshal on the spot is the controlling factor and the authority. If the FIA say that the lights overrule the flags then marshals will chuck their flags away.
BTW the guy that mentioned “common sense” earlier, is probably not aware that it was abolished by Tony Blair.
No. It is the people who know the rules versus people who think they do.
Is this the footage you are talking about? The BBC et al might be trying to cook it up into a story, but there is a marshal there waving a green flag. If you understand the situation and the rules, it is very clear there is nothing to complain about and no story.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20540952
There is no story.
That’s what I thought when I read Benson’s hyperbolic piece on the BBC website yesterday. With this and the ‘Vettel to Ferrari’ story, do you still rate him?
He is doing a job.
. . . but the word “good” is conspicuous by its absence from that sentence.
http://sniffpetrol.com/2012/11/29/ferrari-to-challenge-christmas/
As you say, a lot of what ifs. Fact is Vettel overtook under yellows. Why should he not be penalised? I am no Ferrari fan and I deeply dislike Alonso for the pouting petulant git he is, but I think Vettel’s exuberance and disregard for the rules robbed a WDC. Tainted, very very tainted.
Utterly disagree
It’s not a fact at all! He overtook after a green flag, ergo by the rules green flag conditions apply. Hell, I’m colour blind and I can see it! It seems a lot of people are wilfully blind to the evidence at hand. I have no particular preference for either driver, but it is almost as if Ferrari are trying the quite bizarre (but often sadly effective) tactic of ‘if we say something with enough conviction people will believe it’ (allegedly!).
Fact is, he didn’t.
Flag trumps lights. Flag was green.
On the lighter side…. am now recalling the grilling you got earlier in the year Joe by some poster who thought you should have given way more credence to the ‘informed sources’ article on JA’s site claiming Seb had an agreement with Ferrari… such sources seem to be conspicuously silent now.
Get over it! Vettel is champion and good luck to him. He drove a great race in difficult circumstances. I’m a big Alonso fan and I think no other driver presently in F.1 comes even close to his talent. But if Alonso won by default it would be a pretty sad day for the sport.
He drank the milk……End of story!
The BBC footage is difficult to make out, but it looks like the Marshall was standing on some sort of trackside tower. I’m just relieved he wasn’t behind a grassy knoll, or this whole conspiracy could have got seriously out of hand.
That’s the second marshall, the CIA guy…
Out of curiosity Joe, MUST a race winner be determined in Brazil.
If the FIA finds that Vettel did overtake under yellows, can he just be penalised for that, but just that?
Declare no winner in Brazil but let Vettel keep his WDC from pre-INterlagos points.
Move on. Season 2013 awaits.
Why 1994, Joe? 1990 is a far better example of a WDC that could, and should, be overturned based on the FIA’s actions in 1997.
The answer to that may need to wait until the central characters are no longer around . . .
Not relevant to this post, but I find these statistics rather interesting:
Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 2007-2009: 1 WDC, 2 WCC, 9 wins
Fernando Alonso, Ferrari, 2010-2012: 0 WDC, 0 WCC, 9 wins
Discuss . . .
There are two factors at work here: 1. Kimi Raikkonen 2. Red Bull.
Late to the party…
Funny how many folks site the incident as proof of whatever horrible traits they see in SV/RB, or FA/Ferrari, or FIA/whoever… never let reality get in the way of a good hate-a-thon…
Too bad the whole thing can’t be blamed on Maldonado, he’s the one I don’t like
It was all resolved just as it should have been… with Ferrari asking the FIA to look into it (just as they should have done)… and the FIA examining everything and reaffirming the original result (just as they should have done)…
Hello Joe, I need to ask a question, that nobody above asked yet… Why there was no reaction from Race Control to the first lap collision between Vettel and Senna in 4th corner? There was no official info displayed on the tv screen that would state: “incident under investigation by the stewards”. If there is a rule saying ‘no stewards’ investigation of any incident which took place during first lap of the race’ I would love to know where to find it in the FIA regs… I’m asking about it because in my opinion the lack of action from the stewards then created the atmosphere of mistrust which lead to all this yellow light/green flag mess. Would appreciate your take on that. Thanks