There is an interesting reflection on Formula 1 in the news today in the United States where Circuit of the Americas owner Bobby Epstein wants the United States to be moved from its current November 17 date – to avoid a clash with a University of Texas home football game which is scheduled for the same weekend. There are fears that the combination of the two events would overwhelm the city’s transportation and hotels.
The average attendance for the Texas Longhorns home games is an impressive 100,000 spectators and the game scheduled for the race weekend is with the Oklahoma State Cowboys, which is due to take place on Saturday November 16, the day before the Grand Prix. Having said that the University of Texas does have some wriggle space as there is a free weekend for the Longhorns on November 23 although many fans may already have booked hotels as rooms are already hard to come by at sensible prices.
The Grand Prix on the 17th will also clash with the NASCAR Sprint Cup finale in Florida. The stock car event this year started halfway through the F1 race.
There is little opportunity for the F1 circus to change dates. It cannot be earlier because of the races in India and Abu Dhabi and the only possibility would be a switch with Brazil, which would not be as good for TV viewing numbers and would be resisted by the folk at Interlagos.
joeblogsf1 
This must be quite new to Formula One, that there are clashing events that will not (and should not) yield to the Grand Prix, but vice versa. 🙂
And the F1 race will not yield to them.
The city will deal with it. The details are probably about the downtown park n ride and not much else. It’ll be rendered useless in 2013 because before the game people will be tail-gaiting all over downtown. Put another way, every square inch of parking lot available (including multistory parking lots) turn into a mobile bar so both teams’ fans get canned before the game. There will be more than 100,000 out partying in the streets, not all have tickets. Once the city finds a place to move the downtown park n ride this issue will quietly disappear. For us that are sent to the Expo Center or Airport Blvd. park n ride this is a non-issue. CoTA just don’t want to have to split the downtown park n ride. Guessing it’s an economy of scale thing. But they will have to because nowhere else can take that volume in one go.
The much bigger issue is the lack of hotel space to accommodate all the F1 fans and football fans for the same weekend.
I really don’t see UT or the Big 12 Conference moving their date. Their scheduling is very difficult also. They are the 800# gorilla in town, so it’ll be interesting to see how this works out. University of Texas Football has a 120-year history, bringing more people to Austin than any other series of events ever has or likely ever will. It’s not even close.
what about SXSW other music related events.
Sure, there are let’s say 100-115K attendance at the games, and with 40K-50K students, and 20K staff, and likely a fairly high number of relatively local attendees, are there more than 80K that come from outside the Greater Austin area?
Every home Texas Longhorn football game attracts more than 40,000 out-of-town visitors and generates an estimated economic impact of more than $24 million, according to Angelou Economics, a local economic development and consulting firm. That doesn’t include ticket sales or extras. Out-of-town fans buy more than 40 percent of all season tickets. Including single-game attendees, about 245,000 fans contribute to local hotels, restaurants, retail stores and transportation systems.(http://www.austinrelocationguide.com/2012/Austin-Texas-Sports-is-Big-Business/)
http://impactnews.com/articles/swa-formula-1-races-could-have-more-economic-impact-than-ut-football,-sxsw-combined-july%202010/photos.html#1618
http://impactnews.com/articles/study:-sxsw-generated-$190.3m-economic-impact-in-2012/
Not as simple as you might think about moving the football game a week later… the game after the open date is on Thanksgiving, Thursday the 28th… playing on 23 Nov instead of 16 Nov would mean they’d be playing in-state rival Texas Tech with only 4 days between game days. That will not happen, except perhaps after the payment of several whomptillion dollars to U of T, and likely not even then. Even worse, if U of T did agree, Oklahoma State won’t, as they already have a game scheduled on the 23rd.
Somebody at F1 HQ should have done their homework first. Amazing that they didn’t. If they think F1 will outrank college football, they’re about to get a wake up call…
Why not look at it in a positive fashion. If the town is chock-a-block with people, Austin makes more money because the town will be churning. Some of the football crowd will take a look at F1 and make a weekend of it. Some of the F1 people might take a look at the football, but i doubt they have the time to sit around for that long…
I think that’s just what’s going to end up happening. More people that can be introduced to the sport can only be a good thing.
No real positives to be had. There is a finite number of hotel rooms and the combination of the two events will inflate hotel prices even higher than 2012. The prospect of higher travel costs, especially hotel rates, together with the concern over traffic/congestion from the UT game, will discourage racing fans from attending. Those are real concerns for a promoter paying $20-30 million for the F1 show. Few UT or OSU football fans will even consider taking a look at F1 — they are rabid alumni and dedicate their time in Austin to football (forgoing the opportunity to pay approx $300 for one ticket to Sunday’s F1 race). And F1 people will not be able to “take a look” at the UT game because it will be sold out. Not much opportunity for anything remotely positive there.
Why would TV viewing numbers suffer if the F1 finale was in the U.S. vs. Brazil?
F1 has historically treated the U.S. promoters as stepchildren. Scheduling F1 in Dallas in July once is just dumb. Trying to do it a second time is what killed any chance of a second race. Phoenix in June? Are you kidding me?
Of course, if the U.S. market is not important then the series can just add a another race in another Middle Eastern kingdom.
It will if necessary.
And therein lies the reason why F1 has problems in America– a complete disregard for the locals. Your attitude (and F1’s) seems to be that F1 is bigger than American College Football– and it might be outside of America, but it never will be in America. College football fans rival European soccer fans for dedication and fanaticism.
Austin will be fine– The Longhorns will be fine. F1 will be the big loser here, but apparently that’s not important to the FIA or FOM.
The point I am making is not in any way a criticism of American ways, nor is it denying the popularity of college football. All I have tried to do us point out that F1 has far more value to Austin, whether you see it or not. It is all about looking at the big picture and some of the people commenting Di not seem to have that ability.
Well, Joe, this may get to the heart of it.
As I understand it, you not only believe that F1 has more value to Austin than does big-time college football, you also believe that anyone who does not buy that claim is somehow unable to grasp the truth and is blind to the big picture.
IMHO, you should consider the possibility that those who disagree are not unable to grasp the truth, nor are they incapable of being taught. You might also consider the possibility that they disagree with your assertion for good reason.
Now, as to the merits of each point of view, I know of no evidence to support the claim that F1 is more valuable to Austin than is UT football *other than* the claims found in studies that are bought and paid for by those selling F1. You seem to find such reports trustworthy and compelling. Others, such as myself, do not. My reasons for not finding them trustworthy are neither naive nor trivial. However, I do understand that you find them trustworthy.
So, in essence, this boils down to a disagreement about which claims about economic value one trusts vs. mistrusts. Is a sincere disagreement about the validity of such reports a good basis for calling people unteachable and unable to see the big picture? Is a sincere disagreement on this point grounds for thinking others are either ranting (when they’re not) or somehow not giving you due respect? Why is this topic one where agreement with your point of view is required for one to be taken seriously? Why are your treating legitimate and well-founded disagreement as ignorance and/or an insult?
One alternate point of view that you may (or may not) wish to consider is that seeing the big picture requires looking beyond what is said in reports that are created for the purpose of marketing F1. Why do you think it unwise to doubt what a salesman is telling you? Is there any other form of human endeavor in which you trust the salesman’s spiel at face value? Is there any other domain in which you consider those who question a salesman’s claims to be ignorant?
You can believe whatever you want to believe and can rationalize things however you wish to rationalize them. The reality is in the numbers that FOM makes, and that cannot be disputed. As to whether it works for the locals or not, I would advise going to races so you can see the economic impact happening around you (and to you!) and then you will understand that most of the people who challenge economic studies do so from a position of bias and/or ignorance. I am not here to argue FOM’s case, I am simply telling things as I see them. If you don’t want to read it, I am not holding you prisoner, there are plenty of sources out there claiming to be F1 experts, you can read them.
The thing is that I know pretty much all the real experts in F1 and I know how few there are who really know what they are talking about. Believe who you want to believe. It is your choice. I am simply trying to offer free guidance.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother.
You also have to be realistic about it as well. In Texas football is religion and F1 is not. You would need the local conference and the NCAA to agree with a move, as well as the TV networks. NCAA sports draw more viewers than F1 in the US, and if one has to give, in Texas, it will most likely be racing. That said, I fully expect nothing to happen and everyone will cram into Austin and kvetch about it.
I think you miss my point about there being a world out there.
I think you miss the point that being provincial and narrow-minded isn’t the way to boost appreciation of F1 in the United States.
If people want F1 in the US to be taken seriously, then F1 is going to have to take the US seriously.
F1 treats the US exactly the same as it treats other countries.
But in Austin do F1 and handegg share fans? I would have thought there wouldn’t be much crossover?
An entrepreneur would say: “Yes, but maybe they might”.
If the times don’t directly conflict there’s a great opportunity here for CotA and UoT to get together and set up big screens at each event showing the other one – even if it’s just during the build-up as fans slowly arrive at each venue it’ll add some atmosphere and placate those who’d like to follow both.
That’s the right thinking Jem. Not in “Oh my, this is never going to work” but using it as a great opportunity!
I get that it might be nicer for hotels to have rooms sold out for 2 weekends in November, on the other hand, this way the extra rooms that are currently built are sure to be full.
I attended the University of Texas and am a huge fan of both college football and F1. Most F1 fans that I know around here are also avid College Football fans.
Oh Dear, F1 still has a lot to learn about the USA and I’m afraid they’re going to learn the hard way…
And vice versa.
Perhaps, but I suspect F1 needs the USA a lot more than the USA needs F1.
Says who?
I’d say the sponsors would say that F1 being present and visible and popular in the US, is more key than the US lusting after and trying as hard as possible to get F1 races. Aside from a few areas, not too many communities have seemed to want to mortgage their finances to get the races, even though there can be a economic ROI
US sports are really cheap for cities. The cost of the Superbowl is not huge.
“We need North America more than it needs us, and therefore we’ve got to be prepared to work at it, adapt the sport if necessary but make sure we do everything we can so we can appeal to the American market.”
Martin Whitmarsh
Martin Whitmarsh is not Bernie.
but Joe, isn’t a healthy roster of teams with sponsors that are able to get a greater exposure one of the more vital aspects to the overall health of F1. Bernie is the host of the races, but without the teams, his clout is nill.bernie may run f1, but is he really f1?
The teams persist in refusing to do the thing that will help them most. A budget cap. Bernie just laughs all the way to the bank.
You are so sassy.
Martin Whitmarsh, Norbert Haug, Luca di Montezemolo… nearly every sponsor whose name appears on an F1 car…
But who’s courting who here? F1 is trying to sell itself in the US, the US is not trying to convince F1 to come on over and dance. I’ve been an F1 fan for longer than I like to remember and have attended races in the US and England, including Detroit, Indy, and Long Beach but really, people here don’t know and don’t care about F1. If F1 wants to sell itself in the US it is going to have to learn and approach this differently. Austin was a great success, but only followers of the sport know that; as far as the rest of the US is concerned Austin never happened. That may be a cold statement, but it’s accurate. If Bernie wants to break into this market he’s going to have to accept that F1 is small potatoes and needs to sell itself. Going head to head with college football in Texas is not the way to do it.
As I have already explained. F1 has already sold itself to Austin.
F1 has sold itself to Austin, but not sure it has sold itself to the USA ?
Joe, I love your insight about F1 but I’m afraid you are missing the mark on this one.
F1 has not “sold Austin”… or the US.
F1 did make a “good 1st impression”.
Big difference.
What F1 did was make lots of nice-sounding noises about how important it was to have a new home in the US, and how important it is to build on their nice first impression and finally (and for the very 1st time) do its job in the US properly. Nice words. Nice platitudes.
And now this.
Sad to hear you fooled into thinking the US has to learn its lesson about F1. In US-speak, it means you’ve been “drinking the Koolaid”. If you think there is any prayer of F1 winning a tussle with college football, you’re about to find out what “wrong” means.
As for the notion of “look on the bright side”, there is no bright side. There are not enough hotel rooms in the area. Not just in the city, but in the area.
Bottom line: F1 has made a big mistake here. Nice platitudes rapidly give way to proof that F1 thinks its the center of the universe. It might be that in Europe and in Third World countries trying to purchase legitimacy… but in the US, F1 is not the center of anything… except it’s own sad history of failure here. This recent stupidity might prove to be Step 1 in continuing that failure.
What they have done in this instance is silly, stupid, and indefensible. The main thing it shows is that the recent platitudes were just that: empty words that reveal nothing about F1 waking up because F1 hasn’t. Rather, F1 expects a major cultural tradition in the US, one that is 120 years old, to modify it’s plans to suit Bernie’s schedule… because F1 had 1 nice race in Austin. This is moronic. No other word will do.
To be clear: my use of the word “moronic” is in reference to F1’s behavior in this case.
It is not in reference to the disagreement between you and I on this issue. I have learned a lot from you and am grateful for that. Our points of agreement far outnumber our points of disagreement. I do not think you are in any way being moronic in this instance. Rather, I think you are just not well informed about the implications. Big difference.
It’s not your job to be well informed about this kind of stuff. But if F1 hopes to succeed in the US, it is F1’s job to do that, This blunder demonstrates that they didn’t even do the most basic homework. This is a case of F1’s arrogance and negligence merging to create one large mistake.
You do not seem to understand how F1 works. It is like most sport these days. It is about money. F1 makes a bundle for the teams, the region and the rights holder. This works for TV stations and sponsors as well. The fans might wish to pay less but ultimately the business model works because there are people enough to make it work. The date clash may be a good thing for F1. I gripe because I pay my own bills!
You have missed the point. I’m not saying the US is sold on F1. Read the stuff again.
Oh, I see… it seems we’re talking at cross-purposes…
You seem intent on pointing out, in essence, that Bernie’s got his money and therefore doesn’t give a damn… at the same time, several of us are pointing out that, soon after it’s inaugural race at Austin, F1 seems intent on screwing the pooch in the US yet again…
I think both points of view are accurate… it’s just that we’re talking about different things…
The only error I see you making is when you buy the myth that F1 is worth more to Austin’s economy than is big-time college football. This seems to boil down to you accepting the mythical numbers produced by whoever gets hired to issue reports claiming that F1 really is quite the bargain for those who pay through the nose to get it. On this particular score, I’m afraid you’re mistaken… no way that a once-a-year weekend is worth more than an entire season of big time football… if you believe otherwise, I’ve got a bridge to sell you… this particular bridge is a bargain at only $25M per year 😉
Gosh, I have wasted all these years learning about F1. Silly me.
Did I read somewhere that F1 needs the US more than the US needs F1?
Perhaps, but if it was written by an idiot does the publication process give it validity?
Martin Whitmarsh seems to think so. Peter Windsor talks about it all the time.
I’m not sure that a clash is a big deal though, F1 needs to promote itself first – most people in the US wouldn’t have a clue what F1 is and when it’s on.
When / if it becomes more well known then a clash might become an issue.
Seen purely from a revenue perspective, F1 brings in 5 times as much ($500 million) in the one race in Austin than UofT brings in for it’s entire season, even though the Longhorns are the biggest earners in college football. I know, living in a big college football city myself (Eugene, Oregon), how big it seems; but F1 is gargantuan by comparison.
Seems legit.
Do I sense sarcasm?
http://circuitoftheamericas.com/economic-impact
http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/morning_call/2011/09/ut-longhorns-top-nation-in-football.html
Extrapolating the Austin number to other F1 venues, F1 out-earns all of Division 1A football less than 1/3 of the way through the season.
I am assuming the folk in America are paying a fair bit more for their race than those in Brazil. Could this sway the decision ? Having a title decider in US (although there is no way of knowing that will happen unless you happen to see the script from bernie although I doubt he lets the lowly but hard working hacks see it ;p) would be a good way to increase viewership given that it might be on FTA TV on NBC.
@Joe,
Isn’t the NCAA’s ability to move a Texas Longhorns game only possible if opposing teams are also free and willing to rearrange. Are you sure you’re not overstating F1’s reach and relevance in football dominated market?
Even NASCAR is a mere nothing compared to college football.
I am not suggesting anything. I am just saying that there is a free weekend.
However, that weekend is not free for Oklahoma State.
Another way to look at it is that the same clashes occurred with this year’s running of the race and they managed to draw a decent crowd anyway.
I suspect that Formula One in the USA has a pretty unique fan base and isn’t competing with college football or NASCAR in any meaningful way.
And F1 had next to no coverage, very low TV figures (which still proved to be the highest in several years) hampering attempts to grow the category.
College Football plays on a Saturday. This seems to be more about publicity than a serious threat to logistics for either event. I wouldn’t put it past Bernie suggesting a tactic like this. If it’s posed as a problem then more domestic media will mention the race. Then everything will work out fine and all parties win. Plus the city will like F1 even more for having the skill to navigate what’s bigger than the book religion here.
Try booking a hotel room that week in Austin.
As Joe pointed out in his post, the concerns are over the public transport system in Austin, not the attendance figures per se.
Perhaps the concerns should be broader. Once again, good luck getting any media coverage.
Bullshot! Attendance is a much, much greater concern than the shuttle system. I don’t understand how anyone can imply that the UT game is going to impact the shuttle system. How? Where? Why?
Please understand that ticket sales and some hospitality sales are the ONLY opportunity for COTA to make money on the F1 race.
BTW, COTA spent $2 million on the shuttle system! That’s crazy money
That and the Texas Events Fund.
I suspect F1 will force the gridiron to move, which will create a big stink and alienate the town from the sport.
It would probably be best to move austin to the start of the year to avoid the football season entirely, but i cant imagine moving brazil along with it would be all that popular.
Nick, there is not a chance in hell that the football game will change dates. F1 has no muscle or visibility here in the US of A; people would just laugh at the idea of moving the game date; F1 can’t FORCE anything. This is just another example of F1 not understanding this market and thinking they are the big fish.
See my reply elsewhere about horizons.
Does the FIA just pull dates out of the hat for the grand prixs without any consideration for any other events. I guess this is where the problem lies in having 20 GP’s a season.
B Ecclestone picks dates. The FIA just agrees to them.
Then does Mr. E even care about American football or is it really done on purpose?
As for conflicting with a ridiculously huge sporting event, has F1 ever got a European football (soccer) match to move dates so as not to conflict with an F1 race (or vice-versa)?
CoTA shouldn’t be complaining about what is maybe one of if not the best slot in the calendar for not only an Austin event but for most events. Just as Australia should open the season, the European season takes place during temperate summer months, then Austin as the penultimate race builds in natural tension to grab casual American viewers’ attention. Plus November is perfect weather. They need to and will make it work. There’s the will, money, and interest to do so. I think people are underestimating how much engineering and auto industry exist within a radius of 3 hours. Texas, as a state, has spent 20 years recovering from the oil crash in the late 80s and will never be a one industry state again. Two of the top engineering research universities in the world are within an hour of the track. The state wants visibility through F1 for economic reasons. This track isn’t some despot’s ego eyesore or else it wouldn’t have made it past planning permission. And a tie in with the football game could go a LONG way to achieve that. By the way, the UT school of business is the mccombs school of business. Something makes me think his right and left hands know what the other is doing. Go read the post a bit up from here referencing angelou economics.
Roman, I don’t think Bernie cares that much for American football, no. In the end, its the COTA people who will have to deal with that, I guess.
The date is almost the same as this year (as in – not unexpected), and If you take in account the duration of the F1 season, the logistics of flying everything over from India to Austin to Brazil, and the fact teams do like to have at least december off, Its not THAT easy to shift the whole thing (remember trying to come up with an alternate date for Bahrain in 2011?).
As for clashing dates – races have clashed with the Wimbledon finale, and with games for the Football world championship and Olymics before.
Actually the F1 calendar was released in September, way before the football schedule which was like 2 weeks ago.
So we have the German Grand Prix clashing with other events and now Austin has the same problem. You’d have thought Bernie or whoever puts the calendar together would have looked into this beforehand and made sure there weren’t any clashes. It would have prevented this whole argument.
Folks: Getting the Longhorn game rescheduled is a non-starter. UT football surpasses the status of religion in TX. Mention of the race MIGHT make the sports front of the newspaper on the weekend.
I thought F1 was ‘desperate’ to break into the USA market?
Assume it would have accommodated that country’s existing sports fixture schedule in order to do so..?!
There is absolutely no way Texas would change its home football date. American sports team schedules — both on the college and pro level — are locked in once set. They’re not moving targets like international motorsports calendars.
It is always humorous, if not disastrous, when someone who is not an American attempts to offer a ‘US perspective’ or even an understanding of American priorities. Can’t be done, although I always admire your courage, Joe. This is a major potential pitfall, and FOM is well advised to break with their rusty habits when dealing with the US if they wish this to be a continuing success. Schedule the race the following weekend, with Brazil the final race in November as was done this year, tradition intact, and numbers saved. Despite what seems logical, Formula One is quite a distance behind college football (yes, that game we play with our hands) in Texas. It’s religion there. Ignore at your peril, FOM.
Why is there always the same “Ain’t it funny! What do F1 people know about America?” reaction to everything? And it is always: “F1 should do this…”, and more often than not this advice shows a profound lack of understanding about the way F1 operates.
We get the fact that college football is big. We also understand that things will cost more if both sports are in town. Having said that, we cannot get much more ripped off by the local hotels than we were this year when the hoteliers all got cartoon-like dollar signs in their eyes. All this means is that F1 folk will become more inventive. Both sports may lose spectators who will be priced out of the market, but one needs also to look at the up side. If the town is chock-a-block with people, Austin will make more money rather than less. Some of the football crowd will take a look at F1 and make a weekend of it. Some of the F1 people might take a look at the football, but I doubt they have the time to sit around for that many hours on a Saturday.
Just to illustrate how big football is in Texas…on my first visit to Dallas many years ago I was amazed that the Sunday sports section contained many pages of reports on local high school football games…here in Toronto Canada (the wanna be center of the universe) high school football barely merits a mention when they have the city championship and that is about it…
I’m sure F1 ‘knows’ a considerable amount about America.
Question is, does it ‘care’ about making inroads there?
I think the view is that if it works, it works. If not…
Fair enough!
Anyway, I assume that the BRIC market has higher priority.
I can pretty much guarantee there will not be an empty seat in the football stadium to allow an F1 person to ‘take a look’ at football. I had been thinking of attending next year but this clash ends that speculation. As a Kiwi/American I find American football stupid and boring, but it is a religion, for unknown reasons, for a lot of people.
Yeah, but imagine finding yourself in the centre of Austin after Qualifying: the place is going to be swarming with football fans, including plenty without tickets who’re just going to have a party and get drunk in a bar. And you’d think, hell, why not join in the festivities, it looks fun. And hey, maybe I can get chatting to that hot American chick over there cheering on her team…
You are a dreamer. You think I get to go out on Saturday nights? You have no idea.
I think Jem, might have been talking hypothetically about a generic F1 fan. Also, I think that the conflict, and double booking for events for this weekend, combined with the attempted gouging that hoteliers sought to do in 2012, combined with longer waits at bars restaurants, etc. may turn people off of the well executed venue and race.
I wasn’t directing the comment at you Joe, more at fans (which I perhaps falsely assumed SteveH to be) who aren’t constrained by deadlines, interviews and anything else resembling work!
You didn’t falsely assume anything. I’ve been an F1 fan and race attendee since 1980. I’ve been to Long Beach, Detroit, Brands, and Silverstone. I’ve raced FF, F2000 and Atlantic. Don’t assume anything. I’m concerned about F1’s direction and lack of technical development. I am constrained by work and income.
I just wasn’t sure whether or not you, like Joe and a few regular commenters on this blog, work in F1 in some capacity – meaning that presumably if you’re travelling to a race you’re probably not constrained by work during that weekend.
There is, of course, a big difference between “F1 people” who won’t have the time for anything else during the race weekend, and “F1 fans”, who might spend a weekend in the city to watch 7 hours of action.
As for income, I possibly didn’t clarify my little hypothetical scene enough : I was working on the basis that, while tickets for the UoT game will be hard to come by and very expensive, you can probably happily go and join a crowd of local supporters in a bar and watch the game on a big screen amongst passionate, knowledgeable fans.
Certainly if it’s anything like “soccer” in Europe (and a few people have suggested that it is) then thousands of Austin-based UoT fans won’t have tickets and instead will be in their local pub/bar. As long as you’re not a fan of the opposition, you’d probably be welcome to join the fun.
Slot it in instead of the New York GP . Sure it’ll be 105 degrees but that would be a good challenge for the drivers (and spectators) . I was there last year straight after the Canadian Grand Prix in 105 degrees and it was great . Lots of motorsport events take place in the States throughout their hot summer .
F1 has made that mistake already. That is not going to happen.
As a resident of Austin, Texas who understands what our summer is like… I would like to say that this is probably the most ignorant suggestion I have ever heard. Ever.
Good luck getting the Longhorns to change their dates. In Texas, matters of life and death are considered trivial compared to college football. And the only place where football may be more important than in Texas is Oklahoma.
The only reason why Longhorns games get 100,000 fans is because it’s almost impossible to build a gridiron football stadium any bigger than that. There are one or two with slightly more capacity (such as U of Michigan) but 100k is about max. If a stadium could be built where 275,000 could see the action, universities like Texas, Texas A & M, Nebraska, SMU, and Oklahoma would have them and would still sell out every game.
If you’re not familiar with this strange phenomenon, watch a few episodes of the now-defunct US TV series “Friday Night Lights” (available on DVD), or read the book by Buzz Bissinger.
Couldn’t agree more. While I’m not saying F1 must accommodate college football, I can’t see UT changing the date for anything but a natural disaster. While I understand the logic that bringing the two crowds together may benefit F1 in the US, my fear is that if the infrastructure is indeed overwhelmed, it would make for an unpleasant experience for those who attend, possibly turning them off the event.
The only issue with 2 large sport events back to back in a town is hotel space. I think it will be good for both sports and create some cross talk amongst the fans. Those with the $ will stay close and those with less $ will stay farther away.
i think the calendar is getting too big and too full. as much as i love F1 and would love to see a race every weekend logistically it’s getting too hard to please everyone and avoid all potential conflicts. And with races as jam packed as they are there’s less wriggle room for moving things around.
Personally I was shocked at reading that the University of Texas football team regularly draws in crowds of 100k, I simply had no idea that US university football was such a huge spectator attraction in the US. I guess F1 will have to fight hard to gain market traction against such well established incumbent.
2010-2011 University of Texas football generated $150M in revenue. Back in 2010 College football as a whole generated $1B in profit on $2.2B in revenue. It’s kind of a big deal
Yes, in a few states, but I doubt it makes many waves in China.
Are you saying that in China F1 does make waves?
Millions have at least heard of it. The point I am trying to make is that the US does not look beyond its own horizon.
You are quite correct about that.
But so what? Do you want to see F1 fail in the US yet again? Because digging in about this kind of scheduling conflict is a great way to do it… again…
Right on. I guarantee F1 will never be bigger than College football in the USA. Never. No matter how many millions of Chinese watch F1, we here in the USA just don’t care.
What an intelligent view.
I was simply providing Mike with some perspective based on his comment “I simply had no idea that US university football was such a huge spectator attraction in the US.” I know that no one outside the US gives a toss about handegg on a collegiate or professional level.
I was also confirming Mike’s assumption “I guess F1 will have to fight hard to gain market traction against such well established incumbent.”
Believe me, as a huge F1 fan I want it to succeed in the US. I want it to succeed in Austin, as I live just 6 hrs north of there and have family and friends who live there (no hotel worries for me). But I am not sure that fighting with something as big (in the US) as college football is the best way to go about it.
Never mind all that. The German GP now clashes with the Goodwood FoS!
The thing that seems to be missed is that Formula One is the salesman here.The US is a willing, qualified and profitable customer; but with needs that must be accomodated. It is not the other way around. F1 will not survive in America if it’s run like a Ferrari showroom.
F1 goes places on its own terms. The goal is to make money, but Formula One does not spend money to do that. What it does do is to offer promoters the opportunity for their city or region to be seen on the world stage, with the prestige and economic benefits that this may bring. F1 does not care where it goes, if these places make economic and strategic sense. Strategically, the United States is important to the sponsors, who would like to see the sport making a bigger impression in the US market, but there is a big world out there (which college football does not satisfy) which includes such booming places as China (population 1.3 billion) and India (1.2 billion). The US can ignore these countries at their peril because these are the economies that are making life tough for Americans. The sport is keen to go to any of the bigger countries, if the circumstances are right, thus the United States, Brazil, Indonesia and Nigeria are all of interest, but there is no value for Formula One, unless there is local support and it is good to be seen to be going there.
Texas is only important to F1 because it is a starting point for F1 in the United States. It will help to drum up some interest in the sport, but the real target markets for the sponsors are the East and West coasts (36 percent of the population and 15 percent of the population respectively). Texas amounts to only eight percent of the US population. The view in F1 circles is that if the race in Texas works out, fine. If it does not then F1 will move on and will not be losing any money.
The Formula One group does deals in a very specific way. It gets legally binding contracts with promoters and guarantees from the local authorities to make sure that, come what may, the money is paid. If things do not work out then the race lapses when the contract ends, or if a suitable termination package is proposed.
So F1 has already done its sales job in Texas. If the race now fails the only people who are losing out are the promoters and the state of Texas, depending on who has guaranteed what. If Texas prefers the delights of college football, there is nothing wrong with that, but the world does not care whether the Texas Longhorns beat the Oklahoma Oddsocks (or whatever).
It is really a question of where you draw your horizon.
Joe, that must be the longer reply I’ve ever seen from you! Keep up the good work. In interesting exchange of views – I’m learning a lot here.
It is the off season I have the odd 10 minutes.
Joe, please just stop and think for a sec… this is not about the US ignoring China, it’s about the US ignoring F1.
Equating F1 with the world is what Bernie does. I would expect you to not make that mistake.
It is a reality.
Well said, Joe. And besides, Ferrari has a three-year backlog and America is its largest market, so any business run like a Ferrari showroom ought to be successful. Whereas a business run like American college football, dependent as it is (for now…) on an unpaid, racially subjugated labor force, does not have a long-term future.
Yes, you are right about the horizon. But even though FOM will make their profit by going to Nigeria or Kathmandu the question has to be asked: if F1 doesn’t pencil in for sponsors why would they continue sponsoring teams? In the end there has to be a reason TV pays to covers races and that reason is selling advertising or pay-per-view. If the viewership is not there sponsors will not advertise and the network will not pay for the broadcast. It seems to me that ultimately there must be profit for sponsors or the house of cards will collapse. I know that there are governments willing to pay to have F1 races as that somehow generates income or prestige (that leads to income in some unknown way) but at some point there will be resistance. Right now it seems almost impossible for a race promoter to make money by ticket sales; there was a post the other day that calculated the cost of a seat in Turkey would have to be $438 to break even. This is not sustainable. Certainly FOM protects themselves with contracts and assures they make a (considerable) profit, but if the promoters cannot profit they won’t run the races. We have seen re-negotiated contracts at several tracks recently and this is, to me, an indication that FOM recognizes some of this reality. The 10% per year rise in race fees is not sustainable, however. We are, I think, seeing the housing bubble of F1 and at some point it will collapse; either team sponsors will decide the return is not sufficient, or television will not pay the rates demanded, which is the same thing.
Promoters have been running races for years without drama. Profits are not essential in most places because the economic impact is sufficient to justify the event. Most pay for themselves or give the region a profit and the advertising comes for free. There is a reason these people do these things, you know.
Most sport-event economic impact analyses are very biased: meta-analysis, such as exists, indicates that in real terms, most sport-events do not contribute much, if anything, to local economies over time. The highest profile impact that is demonstrable is in terms of destination marketing, and even that is questionable. For example, the Sydney 2000 Olympics actually had a longer term negative impact on tourism and tourist-related spending in NSW. Economic Impact Analyses or cost-benefit analyses are usually commissioned pre-event by those wishing to present a good case for ‘investing’ in an event. There is little work done on post-event outcomes. Usually, there are a few people (well-connected) who make a lot of money out of the events, but they are not local, or they withdraw the revenues from the region. If anyone is interested I can forward them some links to the literature on this…
One can’t continue running a racetrack at a loss. No matter what the area wide economic impact the track has to make some money or they will go bankrupt. I understand your point about an overall positive economic effect of the circus, but really, if I am a track owner I can’t keep putting on races if I don’t, personally, make some money. I understand how FOM has gotten government entities involved to make up losses but to say profits for the track are not essential because the neighboring hotels make money is not realistic. I suppose the solution, as far as FOM is concerned, is to have no privately run track but only government sponsored events. The situation in Germany is an indication, IMHO, of the pressures on track owners.
Perhaps I am taking a parochial viewpoint, as racetracks in the US are privately owned and not supported by government (although Austin got some state assistance). If Road America or Sears Point (or whatever it is now) puts on a race they have to cover their costs or they can’t continue to function. So from my parochial viewpoint F1s lack of self promotion in the US will mean they can probably put on city or state sponsored street races, fill the stands, but make no headway as far as increasing visibility or fan base which leads to increased sponsorship. I understand this is a big business, but if FOM wants to write off a potentially very rich market in the US they are going about it the right way. What was the TV audience in the US for Austin? Something like 700,000 viewers out of 300,000,000 population? I suspect, Joe, you will respond with a comment about world wide audiences, but this discussion is about F1 in the US.
Bernie talks about wanting to enter the US market; well, he has but from my perspective here in the US not very well and in fact without a ripple. I am a huge F1 fan and have followed the sport for years but it pains me to see how this is going in the US. Long Beach was a good event (on the West Coast) but bailed because of costs; F1 WAS in both the West and East coasts but basically dumped them for bullshit races in Texas, Phoenix, and Las Vegas. How did that work out? Not so well, as it diminished the brand.
Bernie made money.
And?
But if the race fails in Texas the sport does lose momentum in the country and other municipalities may look at the Austin example and think twice before investing in an F1 race.
I would also add that the manufacturers (Mb, Ferrari and Infinity, not to mention manufacturers that may be thinking of joining F1 in the future) are very interested in F1 making inroads in the American market.
Having said all that I dont think that having these two events back to back will be a problem. The city and the organizers of both events will figure out a way to make thing work, after all it’s in the city’s best interest. But atendees will end up paying more for their hotel rooms.
In Texas the horizon is very wide, but not that deep. Austin does not need F1 to put itself on the map. The SXSW music festival, the biotech and pharma companies, and UT take care of that. This track was Tavo Hellmund’s dream and he was forced out by his partners in a murky chain of events that led to a lawsuit. None of the suits who finished this project care about racing, and no one in Austin was demanding an international sporting event in order to increase its global profile. There’s no need for F1 to be in Texas at all, aside from the massive white elephant on the outskirts of Austin.
I think you overestimate the global recognition of Austin.
I agree about Austin’s prominence (or lack of it) – nice city (I lived there for many years) but not quite the equivalent of Adelaide, Montreal, or even Barcelona (the latter two of which held an Olympics).
Joe, you’ve done your best but the people (mostly Americans) posting here haven’t wrapped their head around the F1 business model and the ‘sovereign welfare’ that BE collects as he tees up country-after-country to dip into their coffers for a five or six year run of higher visibility for a chosen city-state.
I really like Austin, I haven’t lived there but it’s a nice place to visit. Outside of the US though I’d be amazed if 1 in a 1000 people have every heard of it. I doubt 1 in a million could list any of it’s attribute’s. That’s not a criticism in any way, I’m just challenging your view of the world’s awareness of it’s existence.
“You will make more money rather than less.” – A lot of bankers or financial advisors, particularly those from Lehman Brothers, have said that about buying mini-bonds.
I’m surprised that the TV viewing figures would not be as good for a final race in Austin, given the 6/7 hour time zone difference would stick the GP in primetime in Europe.
Anyhow, the choice probably comes down to the TV networks. The Longhorns are part of the “Big 12” conference, and they signed a 2.5 billion dollar deal for the TV rights earlier this year.
Also a good observation by RShack that with the Longhorns playing on Thanksgiving it makes it very unlikely that they will move. Football is a tough sport with lots of injuries.
I live in Austin, Texas and could care less about UT football. I will be going to the race. I’m sure the majority of the crowd is local and the Oklahoma fans will be on the road home on Sunday. I am not worried about the conflict at all.
Austin currently has about 35,000 hotel rooms, and has been unable to land any major conventions because of chronically low hotel room capacity. Do the math. Are you “not worried about the conflict at all” because you plan to hold a sleepover for 100,000 people at your house on Friday and Saturday nights?
Right… the factor being unduly dismissed here is the supply of hotel rooms. It’s not just that the price goes up, it’s that you run out of them. Saying “everybody will still show up and just drive to a hotel a bit farther away” misses that point.
Apart from that, it could be fine… modulo the annoyances of the combined events overtaxing the area’s ability to provide adequate service.
But they can’t increase the number of hotel rooms simply by raising the price of them.
F1 has shown on many occasions in the past that when there is demand, there is supply. If people think they can make a killing by renting their houses, then they will rent their houses, and so on.
Being a relative newcomer to north America, I had no idea of the scale and scope of college sport until I went to a conference at a ‘small’ university in S. Carolina. Part of the itinerary was a visit to their new football stadium: not that interesting, I thought until we arrived at a brand new, state of the art 80,000 seat stadium that was home to the college football team. When i asked around, there were already plans to extend it by another 20,000 seats. Further questioning brought forth the news that the previous stadium sold out each game (there are a LOT of games in the football season)… and had done so for many years. Even with the challenging economic climate, college sport attendance figures have not suffered too much.
Coming from Europe where only the top league sport events can occasionally sell out stadia that size, the phenomenon was beyond my real comprehension. Working with students and grad students who have grown up in this environment, I begin to understand the importance attached to college sport.
I guess not many in F1 ‘get’ college sport, or the attachment large numbers of people in American society have to it: it is way beyond anything in their common experience.
Whilst I am an ardent fan of F1 for many years, and am not a fan of college sport in any way, my guess is that if F1 tries to go head to head they will only lose and end up marginalizing the sport again. A few hundred thousand F1 fans out of a population of tens of millions of college sport fans, however diehard, will not see their sport survive.
And, as other commentators note, F1 coverage, even of the Texas race, was woefully pathetic. The bare minimum was available: 60 minutes of qualification (cut-off before the interviews) and 120 minutes on race day (cut off before the full podium interviews were finished).
F1 needs to understand the entertainment value it has and exploit it in a mature and sensible manner: to become a prima donna just isn’t going to work in north America…
Surprisingly enough, there is a world outside of F1 and many people neither know, nor care, about F1. It is the job of the people working in the sport to promote it wisely to those who don’t care if they want to engage with a new generation of fans who live in cultures outside of the sport.
Just my few cents worth…
I spent a long time chatting to an American friend about sport in the US, the relationship of the pro leagues and college sport and whatnot.
One strong point he raised is that it’s viable to up and move a professional team (“franchise”) around the country – if a new owner buys in they can just decide to up-sticks and leave town. Plenty of deals get done to build shining new stadia and bring a big name team in, changing their name on the way.
Sure, there are big, stable teams, but there are a fair number which have folded and been reborn under new owners in new towns. In 2011, NHL team the Atlanta Thrashers got bought out and moved to Winnipeg. In terms of crow-flies distance, that’s the equivalent of a company buying out Glasgow Rangers FC and moving them to Naples.
By contrast, universities and colleges are seen as utterly immoveable. There’s no real option for UoT to shutdown its campus and move the whole college a thousand miles away. So college sport has the tradition and the roots that professional sport doesn’t.
This isn’t to say that no franchises have stayed put, but much like F1 teams, it’s the most successful who’re the most stable.
It was an interesting discussion.
That’s a much wider perspective on the US college sports scene than others have projected. Thanks.
Joe presents a rational argument — that FOM doesn’t really care about the organisers so long as they pay the fee and put on a show that Bernie likes. I must stress that Bernie has to like it and the race has to look good on telly. F1 rules are designed to make great television, and NASCAR and saloon car organisers pull similar tricks. The theory is that if the race looks good on telly, there will be an economic benefit to the region where the race is held.
FOM income is determined by TV viewing figures; organisers in many countries are dependent on race attendance because it is their primary income source. The Austin US organisers have signed a contract, and as far as FOM is concerned, what happens next is their problem.
Joe’s argument works if governments (local or national) feel or measure a benefit. Or if organisers at Spa or Silverstone can make a profit (or not such a bad loss). While it works, the financial model delivers a healthy income stream to FOM and passes all risk to others. Many of the risk takers lose money.
Eventually the FOM model will collapse or F1 will be reinvented. Neither result guarantees that F1 will be more sporting.
Why will it collapse? As long as F1 has global reach people will want to go on buying it, to make their dull cities interesting or whatever.
I believe that the pyramid will collapse because too much of the money goes to FOM. Whether local or national governments benefit from an F1 race is for them to determine; one Australian authority dropped out and another one picked up the race; there won’t be another one.
It won’t.
“Or whatever”? That’s a pretty jaundiced but practical view. I guess the history and legacy of F1 means nothing. God bless the accountants. If it comes to that I will no longer be a fan.
That works both ways! I work at one of the UK most successful universities, in terms of competitive sport. When I visited the US I was asked how many come to watch university games. On a good night, two or three hundred. They couldn’t believe it.
Given that there are only 52 weekends a year and really rather a lot of events worldwide to cram in, there will always be clashes. It would seem to me that the art is in creating situations (as Joe and others have said) where some kind of synergies are created (sorry for the wretched word). If both events can take some positives, then it’s a win-win. Sulking and saying “Well, *we’re* not moving” just won’t help and will result in alienation of possible new fans. I’m a bit disappointed that the Goodwood Festival of Speed will be shorn of all current F1 drivers this year, but on the bright side we might get to see some Texan football players running up the hill.
I personally think having Austin the following weekend would be a good season climax, having the last race in Interlagos is like trying to do 2012 work in 1972 while sitting on top of a septic tank, so i’m not really fussed what their circuit people say.
I agree that Austin in June sounds a little too hot, i certainly wouldn’t want to sit in 100 degree heat on the open banking for three hours on Friday, yet apparently we could be off to Istanbul at the end of July, go figure..
I would say the Nascar clash is the most daft. All Bernie would have to do is start the race at noon local time and it would avoid the clash altogether. That could mean the race could be promoted as a double header (although I guess they are on different networks.)
It seems from an outsiders’ point of view that Bernie doesn’t much care about things like this. He seems to like to dictate his terms, e.g. 2009 Malaysian GP that he started an hour too late for the race to run a full distance, despite advice to the contrary.
As others have correctly mentioned UT football is a force to be reckoned with and FOM and COTA would be wise to respect that. Unfortunately the Saturday scheduling conflict with UT is the least of F1’s problems in America.
Locally (within Texas), the USGP weekend at COTA is competing with the following for the hearts and minds of the average Texas sports fan:
NCAA (Football and Basketball)
Baylor Bears
Houston Cougars
North Texas Mean Green
Rice Owls
SMU Mustangs
TCU Horned Frogs
Texas A&M Aggies
Texas Tech Red Raiders
Texas Longhorns
UTEP Miners
NFL
Dallas Cowboys
Houston Texans
NBA
Dallas Mavericks
Houston Rockets
San Antonio Spurs
NHL
Dallas Stars
NASCAR
Nationally (everywhere else in America), the USGP weekend, COTA and F1 are competing for the hearts and minds of average American sports fans against the following:
NCAA (Football and Basketball)
NFL
NBA
NASCAR
NHL (usually)
Most of the F1 establishment will never truly appreciate what they’re up against because very few of them have experienced this uniquely American ‘well established interconnected sporting weekend/culture’ firsthand.
F1 does not compute to the average tailgating beer drinking American sports fan. Period.
I’m guessing that Tavo Hellmund realized this which is why COTA was named in such a way as to make it appeal more to folks south of the border.
I wonder those folks will continue to make the trip up north when Carlos Slim’s Mexican GP comes online?
One has to ask whether F1 is really after “the average tailgating beer drinking American sports fan”.
They appear to be doing everything possible to turn them off though, which seems a bit silly?
Or to get noticed?
It absolutely should because there are ridiculous amounts of money to be made from them.
Case in point:
Yeah, that’s ONLY college football.
You F1 guys might know that American sports are a big deal but you’ll never truly appreciate it until you witness it firsthand yourselves.
In my neck of the woods Kansas State Football is a second religion and Bill Snyder and Collin Klein are its patron saints.
As I said before, it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in China.
And for most of the world, is there a sporting event of china that has relevance globally. (sure f1. but it is but one race)
Yes, but one race can change the global image of a place. Therein lies the value.
Nor does F1 ….
*if
I also forgot to note that the NCAA Basketball following can and should be subdivided into the Men’s and Women’s divisions.
The latter has its own passionate and sizable following, and I would bet money that your average American sports fan is more familiar with Brittney Griner than Lewis Hamilton.
A race on Thanksgiving weekend would certainly prevent my repeat attendance. Sorry, travel home to visit family > F1.
The American Grand Prize in 1908 was held on Thanksgiving. That was a great success.
And in that time, there have been two World Wars and 104 years. Times change.
I don’t think that was the point I was making.
It would be a personal bummer for me, but I’m not sure how it would affect the event attendance as a whole. A lot of sports activity goes on on Thanksgiving weekend in the USA, including pro football games on the day itself. But it also is a big travel weekend as people go back to their hometowns to be with their families. I’m one of those persons, a San Antonio resident who drove up to Austin last month (thus avoiding the hotel problem), but my family lives back east, and I’m not about to give up Thanksgiving with them when I generally only see them in person 3 times a year including Thanksgiving. How many other Austin F1 attendees fall into my situation… I don’t know, but I bet it isn’t a trivial number.
I’d expect that any event held on a major national holiday would probably still get attendances, but of a different nature – namely people who call the city home rather than the fans who might travel a few hundred (or thousand?) miles to the race.
That said, it’s the sort of thing which would work better in an established F1 territory as it’d be easier to find the fans within the local area.
I live in in Austin, I am a Longhorn football fan and I attended the F1 race this year and will attend next year as well. As mentioned in a previous post, the only issue to resolve for this situation is finding a new parking area downtown for the F1 fans to catch shuttles from since all of the State garages will be filled with football fans. And unlike many other places, space is not hard to come by in Texas. I can think of several locations just off the top of my head that the F1 fans can shuttle from.
Also, keep in mind that the game is on Saturday, not Sunday when the actual Grand Prix is run. This year there were 85k people at the track on Saturday. That number might go down slightly due to a football game, but I don’t think that much. I just don’t think there is much overlap between the two sports.
Hotels: Yes, the hoteliers this year were completely ridiculous, but I think they just didn’t know any better and they will now know how to price themselves for the F1 group. There were a lot of empty hotel rooms this year because of the initial pricing. Also, even though the Longhorn football game will have 100k, the vast majority (I’d guess 80%+) live here in Austin, or within a few hours, and do not need hotel rooms.
Finally, I am not sure about the guy further up talking about population and F1 not really needing Texas. Texas has a current population of 26 million, which is projected to be 40 million within the next 25 years. Texas is far and away the fastest growing State in the US while California is experiencing a net loss of citizens due to their terrible business climate and fiscal irresponsibility.
Additionally, it wasn’t just happenstance that Austin was chosen for a Global racing event. Austin sits in the center of a triangle Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio. That is three of the top ten largest cities in the entire Country. (Austin is 13th). There are over 20 million people within a 4 hour drive of the track. Finally, F1 has a large following in Mexico which is within a few hour drive of Austin.
F1 certainly wants to get out to the coasts for the perceived glamour of it all, but in terms of numbers and access Mexico, Austin is a pretty sweet spot for F1 to be in.
Have you tried booking a hotel room for that weekend in the city, or for miles around come to that. try it? It is really quite scary.
Perhaps it could institute a mini Olympics style boom in hotels or at least the locals renting rooms? I know it’s not the same level as an olympics by any means but Austin may grow very slightly to accommodate such ongoing multiple sports events?
So, have you been able to book a hotel room for that weekend yourself?
Are most of the bookings now held by those who are associated with the football game?
If at the moment most of the rooms are taken up by the football attendees, wouldn’t it be the dominant force economically since in the community that cohort has definitely spoken more forcefully (as far as planning and spending goes)
It seems as though there’s a degree of mutual ignorance, arrogance, and need for future accommodation that needs to occur from here on. But yes there are different economic influences and power for each sport.
But F1 having scheduled its returning race in the US for the same weekend as the NASCAR chase, during the middle of the NFL and end of NCAA FB seasons, do tend to crowd out the space for coverage of the USGP.
This doesn’t mean that the race itself, the enjoyability for those who watch or attend isn’t or can’t be great. But if there is a desire to reestablish a toehold and grow the brand here in the US where there is room to grow, and although there isn’t the same scale of population that is in India or China, The effective purchasing power of the potential fan that pays attention to the other sports is likely as high or higher than the average salary of most in attendance at most F1 races outside of Singapore, Abu Dhabi, and Monaco.
BTW Joe, take a look at what ticket prices are for Football, both College and NFL, and the waitlist for luxury boxes, that probably in many stadia make the paddock club look nearly pedestrian.
That I doubt. Have you looked at the price of the Paddock Club?
So looking up a price list from this year the cost of the paddock club ranged from $4-7k for 2-3 days depending on the circuit.
The prices for many luxury suites per game are at similar or higher levels. So it is comparable.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/47285181/Most_Expensive_Luxury_Suites
The Paddock Club is per person. Not per suite.
There were fears generated prior to this year’s race: lodging costs and availability, transportation, and especially – coordinating the race activities so that a fan would be positively entertained at the track at the appropriate time. Nobody was stuck on a shuttle and missed the entertainment. Nobody who wanted to attend missed the fanfest afterward.
The processes used this year worked. I assume that expanding the scale of the processes to include a larger working circle is being considered… perhaps to even include U of T football fans so that their entertainment experience is positive as well.
It seems easier to consider changing dates, and it is – sometimes. Is it not worthy to consider expanding a known process to keep the dates set, and satisfy the needs of the fans as well?
Great discussion here.
I just hate to see F1 having to share the spotlight here in the US-at the Indy track, where it was the “not” Indy 500 event, or in Texas.
Not good marketing to go up against college football in the South.
Booked a room on the way up to the race that Saturday through Sunday at Extended Stay America, which was nothing fancy and paid $110 per night. Austin will cope!!!
You cannot do that for 2013. They are all gone.
I like F1 but to choose between Texas Football and F1 I’d rather see a Texas football game over F1 any day hands down. I went to the the US GP in Austin. it was interesting to see the F1 cars but it does not even come close to the excitement college football gives me. If F1 never comes back to Austin or the U.S. It will never faze me at all. I will probably Never go to another F1 race ever again. I just can’t justify spending all that money on a sport that was just Meh for me.
So why are you reading this?
I think I mentioned U-T football games before here.
Austin’s climate prohibits anything from happening outside from roughly May through roughly September – those stories about Texas heat are true. So, a Mar-Apr race might be a good idea, as well as the current fall schedule.
So, perhaps the solution is to look for a spring race date?
I guess you don’t have to know what your talking about when you post.
University of Texas did not set the schedule for the Oklahoma State game, the Big 12 did. UT can ask to have it changed but the Big 12 does not have to comply. Joe you say there is an open date, when is that open date?
The football game is sold out but not hard to get tickets to. If they put the game in the evening I don’t see it being a big problem other then hotel rooms.
There are a few new hotels going up downtown that will help with that problem also. The new JW Marriott with have over 1000 rooms by itself.
The crowd for the football game will have a much larger percentage of locals as compared to the F1 race.
I recall being in Montreal one year when there was a Stanley Cup final game – in fact I think it was game 6 where the home team won and everyone managed to co-exist. OK, so there was a mini riot afterwards when the HABS won. A minor point.
It was a major riot. I was there.
Me too Joe – I was in serious danger as a Leaf fan wearing the blue and white as I was…I saw Berger coming out of a gentleman’s club that night looking a little shell shocked or was that partied out?
This has been an interesting conversation, especially since most folks responding are not from Austin, and I wonder how many actually went to the Austin race this year. As an Austin resident (living downtown), UT season ticket holder, and a PSL holder at COTA, here are my comments:
The Big 12 never releases it schedule this early, it was only done because F1 had released that as a tentative date.
Changing a Big 12 college football game is not easy. You would have to have the same off date for both teams, and then look at other games on those dates for TV. Yes, college football games are scheduled based on expected tv dates and other teams to be televised that day.
From an Austin perspective, F1 was sold to Austin based on the tax revenue it was expected to bring. UT football already brings that in when home. F1 may add some to it , but hotels and resteraunts will already be full, there is not much economic benefit.
Parking and shuttles are a big issue. We deal with that for SXSW, ACL Fest, and other events. The shuttles were where they were this year because a lot of DT was closed off for fan Fest. Otherwise the shuttles would have left from republic park DT. I personally don’t think the parking would be a conflict as long as there are shuttle lots north and south. the DT shuttle would mainly be used by those in hotels and residents in and close to DT. As we have poor public transportation, we do need shuttles central.
I am tired of people bitching about the cost of hotel rooms. it is called supply and demand. Try getting a room in DT Austin duing UT football, SXSW, ACL Fest, or NYC near Times Square on New Years or along the parade route for Macy’s parade. All hotels have rack rates that is the most they can charge. During big events, they go up to rack.
Austin does have approx 2500 more hotel rooms coming online, but that won’t be until sometime in 2015.
Personally, I think it is a mistake to have them the same weekend, it will keep more people away than will come if separate. Unfortunately, a lot of local people stayed away from DT and some great events because of the over hype of how bad traffic and parking would be. This will keep more away.
One side will always think their event is more important, but this is Texas and the US, football is more important. For people to say they think it is stupid or whatever shows their ignorance. Most in the US feel the same about F1, Cricket, Rugby, etc.
Lastly, for both sides it is all about money. Other events work with UT not to have scheduling conflicts. The issue is not that they are playing, but that they are home.
All I know is F1 is great for Austin. I will be at next years race. I’ll have some good UT tkts for sale!
If you live in assuring you don’t have to pay the hotel bills. Easy to say that people should not bitch about this stuff but pay out five grand for a week and then try saying the same thing!
But it’s F1! The pittance paid to the hotels is nothing compared to what it brings you. Just consider it the price paid to hang on the world stage.
The hoteliers don’t care if you book the room or not, because if you won’t pony up, there’s a line of folks who will… 😆
Being born and raised in Austin, attending UT and being an F1 fan I know that I will be at both, UT/OU weekend is a bigger deal with ACL Festival. And when I get my race wheel thing (which was awesome!!) I’ll have that with me at the stadium…..win win!!!
A lot of readers seem to be missing Joe’s point. The race, even though it is in America, has a global audience. This is what F1 promotes to its sponsors and also what attracts the potential cities that want to host a race.
Joe has previously alluded to the fact that the race is part of a package of 4 that are in the American (North, Central and South) time zone. Therefore this is much bigger than whether a few Texans go to a race with a hangover from the day before.
Yes, F1 has a global audience but this conversation is about F1 breaking into the American market. They are not doing that well.
No this conversation is about horizons.
I think you both just proved that this isn’t a conversation.
Sincere thanks to you both, and to others for their perspectives. They have succeeded in minimizing my interest in F1. At least for the time being. I believe this may be having similar effects on others. That can’t be good for F1.
Apparently F1’s view is “take our event when we offer it or not”. COTA has invested several hundreds of million dollars to make this work, the least FOM and The Bernard can do is work with the host country to insure its success. Especially since all parties have viewed the first race as a resounding success.
Over the years I’ve heard many a reference to “The Ugly American” (most deservedly so); how about the “Ugly F1 Rights Holder”, luring hosts to invest millions in the the prestige of F1 only to cast them on the side of the road when the reality of the lack of success hits home? Most college football games are scheduled years in advance of the event, is it asking too much for a new event to consider the local competitive market before entering it, in order to coexist? I guess so.
If F1 wants to make a permanent mark on the U.S.market, doesn’t it make sense to work within that markets differing competing interests to insure its success? Why doesn’t F1 cast its most important races amidst the World Cup as an example? Because it wouldn’t be successful. Adjust to the market you wish to impact (if it’s as important as you state), or fail in the futility of lack of understanding of what you are competing against.
Do you feel better after your rant?
I don’t think that was a rant, it was common sense reasonably stated.
I’m loving this. America (and Americans, of which I am one) being told “here it is, take it or leave it”. We are spoon fed the myth of American exceptionalism from birth, so, most recoil in horror when other earthlings dare to not quake at the mention of our name. F1 doesn’t even have nuclear weapons or aircraft carriers, how dare they disrespect our sacred football cow? LOL
I am all for your local traditions and passions. I am simply explaining that there is a world beyond the horizon that is bigger than Texas, big though Texas may be.
Initially I found this thread most frustrating. However, as it has gone on I have become more entertained as Joe, with the various posters, has clearly highlighted the various goals (financial and other), requirements and cares/focus around F1 – both overall and around specific races.
Illuminated, as clearly as anything else, by the comment where Martin Whitmarsh is attributed with the quote that F1 needs the US more then the US needs F1 and the reply “Martin Whitmarsh is not Bernie”.
Bravo Joe.
It’s funny watching my fellow Austinites and Americans forget that while UT football is a major freaking deal here… it is a major freaking deal HERE. The rest of the world does not give a damn about UT football.
So here is my take:
Let BOTH events go ahead as planned. Let this serve as a wake up call for the residents of Austin that still exist in the 1970’s mentality of “if you don’t build it they will not come.” Let Austin realize that 1. Austin is growing A LOT. 2. Austin needs better transportation. 3. Build the freaking hotels and stop bitching when City Council offers breaks on permitting fees etc for said hotels. These hotels and these road projects facilitate a healthy economy. If we keep being stubborn about this, the situation will get worse and people will leave. We will go from boom to bust overnight.
We are in the 21st century now. If we are going to step up to the plate to play ball it’s time we put some big boy pants on. I would love to see my hometown flourish and join the rest of the world. I don’t understand how a city of liberal open-mindedness and welcome became so damn shut off and snooty.
Time to look at the F1 business model? 07/24/2012 by Joe Saward – https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/time-to-look-at-the-f1-business-model/
“In F1 circles the thought-process usually rejects ideas that they did not think about, but it might be wise to look at the NASCAR model and see the advantages it brings.” – Joe Saward
Yes. But they are not going to. The current model works for them. It is not necessarily better fit the sport. It is a subtle difference.
China’s population is of no relevance to F1. How much money its people have available to spend on events, merchandise, TV, and products sold by sponsors is. Total disposable income in the US is $6trn, in China it is $4trn.[1]
Granted, China’s is growing faster. In macroeconomic terms “growing faster” means something like “may surpass in 5 years instead of 10”. Whole economies move slowly.
China (and a few of the gulf states, re. Bahrain GP 2011) have inherent political risks that the big developed countries of the western world do not. China is in the middle of a delicate period of political transition [2] as its manufacturing-heavy economy comes under pressure from other countries like Mexico.
Perhaps you could argue that there is a less-crowded sports marketplace in China (I don’t know if this is true or not) and hence F1’s time would be better spent breaking in there, but for at least the next 20 years the US will be a much larger market, with a proven-succesful motorsport franchise, NASCAR.
In any case the decision about what market F1 should enter should be made by an excel spreadsheet, not by speculations about what type of beverage the fans at the particular venue prefer (six pack or Perrier).
F1 should hold their nose and find ways to cross-promote with American football, and look for ways to reach Nascar fans. As someone pointed out above, Ferrari dealerships are oversubscribed. But Ferrari is /owned/ by Fiat.
[1] http://www.worldsalaries.org/total-personal-income.shtml
[2] http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21565132-china%E2%80%99s-communist-party-preparing-its-ten-yearly-change-leadership-new-team
China was a metaphor for the whole world. The whole world has more spending power. Rather a lot more.
Joe…spending power? Last year Ferrari sold 1,750 cars in the US and Canada, it sold 300 in China….Mercedes-Benz: 210,000 in the US & Canada vs 120,000 in China (and no smaller A-class sold in US)..don’t be confused by a few rich shieks and real spending power.
also consider in 2009 ( not a great year by any means): US was 29% of world consumer spending, China was 5%.
China was a metaphor for the rest of the world. Therefore 71 percent of consumer spending…
The same point. You missed the metaphor. Ferrari sold 5,000 cars outside the US.
yea. on an aggregate but my point is that its still the biggest market..dwarfing all others. incredible spending power. and its hard to ignore it and succeed in any business that sells to consumers.
that being said..I don’t think most of the US companies that sponsor F1 teams (and the’re many) really care about US domestic coverage, they want the overseas exposure, and sponsor NASCAR and Indy 500 teams for that.
If you have 30 percent of something you do not dwarf 70 percent. The whole point that I am trying to make here is that F1 is not about one country or another, it is about the whole. There is a globe out there and college football, wonderful though it may be, does not have even the vaguest hint of global penetration. F1 is what it is today because it delivers a message everywhere. Hard though it may be to understand when you are standing there, but Austin has been put on the global map by F1.
Not sure that comparison fits. In 2007 and onward BMW used to sell more of its 7 class in China, they (and Mercedes, Audi and others) now built these cars locally as its their biggest market for expensive cars (=high margin cars).
I think within the grumbling and one-sided opinions, something is being forgotten – the chance to make $ here. If the hotels are full then doing something to find temporary accommodation (people’s gardens a la the Olympics?) for the weekend. Or all the residents of Austin should get on Air BnB for the weekend and rent their home out for a pretty price.
Already happening. http://www.austinracerentals.com/
leo
And for most of the world, is there a sporting event of china that has relevance globally. (sure f1. but it is but one race)
Snooker?
F1 wont yield – Football wont yield
Just like in Melbourne – with an F1 race on the first weekend of the AFL season last year.
The arrogance of F1 – cost them plenty of media coverage (Every media item in town was all about football)- and probably thousands of spectators who would rather be at the footy.
And all they had to do was go 1 week forward – when no other sports were competing on that scale.
The arrogance of Football cost them nothing – they new that they have the most popular sport in town and would lose nothing to F1.
You don’t understand F1 at all.
From a Formula One point of view- yes why should they care – its about the worldwide audience- so in the respect it cost them nothing.
And they would like to get rid of Australia for a same timezone race in a rich country anyway.
From a Australian F1 fan/race promoter/Ron Walker/Australian Grand Prix point of view- it hurts their tickets sales and hurts their chances of continuing in future if they cant get the public on side.
At least next year – its on in a week before the F1 – so it can go back to being front page news again (People in Meklbourne office might even realise its on this year)- and the regional trains might cope a bit better
How does this view equate to the crowd numbers in Melbourne in 2012?
My view is that is could have been better attended and generated better publicity.
115000 was a small increase , I wonder if without the football next year it can increase by 10000 (Or even the massive 140000 race day crowds of the first year)
From the 2011 Tourism Vic report – around 40000 unique visitors are tourists – which leaves a lot of locals to be affected by competing entertainment.
I suppose my theory is – even if the people don’t come to the track – the more media saturation it gets – the more the public likes the event – and the more chance of the government agreeing to pay the fee in future because of public sentiment – which equals more money for F1.
So being the only game in town for a weekend is valuable.
Joe, I’m gonna offer that your perspective is very Euro-centric F1. Not disagreeing with you at all. However, if all Bernie et al are doing with Austin is a quick cash grab in the US like they did with Indy and have no intention of nurturing long-term success here with the American market, they are going about it the right way with the opinion you’re presenting. Perhaps the fact that there may be another race in the NY area (a market which can handle 2 major events the same weekend) there’s less concern from FOM about Austin. But this attitude you’re presenting smacks of 2005 in Indy.
It smacks of the way Formula 1 is.
And there, dear readers, is the moral of the tale.
So, to conclude this discussion. F1 is a hugely successful global sport that has a business model that works very effectively for the people who own it. It still has hundred of millions of fans around the world, despite the fact that there is a level of greed at the top.
It has far greater real value for the city of Austin than college football, even if the people who live there find that hard to believe and do not understand that this is the case.
You obviously have never lived in Texas, or in the South. Do you want a government that pays the sanctioning fees? Well, if those politicians as people to vote according to football versus F1, I’m pretty sure those politicians will soon learn that football wins. And that the politicians will be looking for a job.
IT would be akin to asking one of the Brit football teams, if they only had 6 home games, to give up one of their 6 home games in favor of a sport that is relatively minor — say, hockey. Oh, and that they’ll be footing the $25 million bill to do so. Pretty sure that the football crowd would be rioting in the streets (I’ve seen the video tape)!
Seriously, the arrogance of F1 is staggering!
You don’t get it, do you? It is not about F1 arrogance. It is about business. The Formula One group has already sold the sport to Texas. Someone is paying the bills and they are being guaranteed – and that will be the case for the period of the contract. I do not know who that is and I don’t really care. I hope that F1 can use Austin as a springboard to greater things in the US, but if it does not work out it is not the end of the world. What I do know with 100 percent certainty is that the sport is worth way more to the city of Austin than college football, even if you don’t understand that. As I have said in other posts, there is land beyond the shores of the United States of America.
One of us lived in Austin, Joe, and I’m pretty damned sure it isn’t you. That you claim to know, from afar, more than a resident is… arrogant.
Get off your high horse and think for a minute. What does it matter if you once lived in Texas? I have not lived there, but I am smart enough to understand that college football is very big in Texas. I am not disputing that. Texas Music is big in Texas too, but you don’t have people in Russia getting excited about that, do you? There is a world beyond Texas where Formula 1 is huge. I am simply explaining to you how it works and why the Formula One group is not arrogant nor stupid. It is making a killing. The city of Austin is making a killing as well. It is not hard to understand if you stop and think it through.
Geek, you’re not telling the thruth here about the METF. While it is the Gov’t, the money from the METF comes from extra sale taxes collected from the F1 event itself. None of the money is coming from any line item budget from the state of Texas. The money doesn’t exist UNTIL the taxes from the Large event happens. F1 for Austin is a huge benefit for our economy and the main reason it is because most of the people coming to the race are not from here.
I’ve been arguing the METF since the race and track were first discussed some time ago. No event = no money for the METF.
Your not basing this on the numbers posted above are you?
I am not saying it is not true, but the post earlier is comparing the economic impact of the construction and the first event versus the income received by the UT athletic department from 6-8 football games. I would guess the economic impact from those football games and UT athletics is far grater than what is received by the athletic department. UT does not get any funds from the restaurants or hotels in the area. I would also guess the places that sell longhorn gear make a higher profit then the university gets.
Think bigger.
The other issue is that COTA is a huge research lab for the University of Texas, and often doctors that may be assigned to Darrell K Royal – Texas Memorial Stadium. Medical students at colleges with huge gridiron programmes will often be used to assist with doctors to treat spectators who fall ill at events. The school may want the revised date to allow doctors assigned to Longhorns matches to work the USGP.
During the USGP the cameras pointed at campers who waved flags representing Stillwater (Oklahoma State). It may be a safety issue over 85,000-people events in an area.
I wanted to ask you Joe, that isn’t there a desire to have some relatively good attendance at facilities, and some positive perception in the locale where races occur?
Sure the scheduling conflict is unfortunate. But although global viewership numbers seem to be the key driver for the economics of the way FOM operates things.
But is there any view of what an optimal attendance at events is? Are there any accommodations for trying to reach broader advertising base for F1 Global partners, and Teams title sponsors?
Because, although what you seem to be saying in response to some fairly well thought out comments by many seemed relatively knee-jerk, and just seemed to be a near parroting of the FOM viewpoint.
I think many of us esp. here in the US expect and hoped for a more thoughtful response to some of the comments.
Sure Austin will likely reap a nice economic affect from the race, but so far it is a sample size of 1 while other events have a longer track record, so earn more respect based on track-record.
I was just wondering has f1 gone through a relatively recent (last 20 or so years) swing upmarket the way that some of the other major team sports have, regarding ticket prices, generally trying to attract and cater to a more upper income client base?
I have explained this in great depth in a number of comments. I am not parroting FOM’s viewpoint. I am explaining the realities. The spectators are irrelevant to the Formula One group. They have their money and their guarantees. Thus Formula One wins whatever happens. Yes, it would be good if this leads to a bigger audience in the US, but the worst case scenario is a huge annual profit from the fees alone.
Austin wins because of the economic impact which for most F1 races is in the region of $100 million a year. In Austin that will be higher because the hotels will be gouging like crazy next year. The price of hotel rooms is just nuts, but that is a reality. It is NOT smart to put two big events on the same weekend because while more money will be brought in, it is probably not as much as would be generated if they were on separate weekends. The price-hiking will drive some away, that is sure. But if it had to be like that because neither sport can move, then that is how it will be.
Been putting your words to a vote over in Facebook, and the Texas residents agree with me — “Son, this IS Texas!”
None of your last arguments go to the heart of the matter — that a November date for F1 is a problem in 50% of the years due to U-T football. The concerts mentioned know that, and stay away from those dates (as I recall).
A far better date is in the spring, which I’ve mentioned repeatedly. Which is, btw “a reality.” Which is what I’ve said since this whole CotA thing was announced. And now we’re suddenly talking about it, and some are suggesting that Texas give up 100 years of football — you’d do better suggesting they get cooler summers.
I am now officially bored with your inability to think.
LOL, geek… you crack me up. So you put it up to your friends to vote on Facebook and they reply “son, this is Texas”. Oh boy! Who gives a damn. I was born and raised in Austin, Texas… and I am a massive fan of Texas Football. But I am sorry dude… when push comes to shove, it really does not matter what Texas Football is. As Joe has already explained… Formula One is bigger than Texas.
The college football is about entertaining the locals and making money for the city and the businesses in it.
F1 is also about making money for the city and its businesses PLUS promoting Austin. When an Indian Russian or Chinese IT or Biotech companies is thinking of setting up a US research base Austin city wants their name to come to mind first.
So does Austin want happy locals or more good jobs? Their choice!!
False choice. To keep the locals happy, they DO have jobs. In fact, I lived there for 9 months to work a job there. Would be kinda like saying, “Hey, those Brits, they should give up their soccer and beer.”
The rational choice is to work with what is given. Do you think that F1 would put an event in the summer heat in Texas, demanding that A/C be installed in the entire track? Well, this football thing is another “given” and it’s best to work with it, not against it.
You lived here for a whole nine months? Oh boy, am I ever glad you decided to be the spokesperson for my city.
Having the event on the same day as the Longhorns football game is a disaster. Expect a severe plummet in race attendance. The hotels were already full for the race, if 100,000 more come to town, where are they going to stay if the hotels are full? I think I recall the race drew well over 100,000 fans on race day, so what are half of them going to do, sleep in their cars? I don’t think so. That being the case, they’ll just stay home and watch it on TV. So the attendance drops to 50,K, then what? The value of the race drops on all levels and we have F1 at Indianapolis all over again. F1 is the new kid in town here and can’t try muscling in on something viewed as a historical tradition. If they want the race to succeed they have to either work with the Longhorns, or change their date. It’s stupid on all accounts not to and if they go head to head they are shooting themselves in the foot on so many levels, including putting a bad taste in the American Public’s mouth in a country where they hope to expand also to New Jersey and also California. Sometimes one has to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.
“I am now officially bored with your inability to think.” — Some of your previous posts were inciteful, but they were all lost to memory when you posted this. People are posting, and linking, sending people to your blog, and this is the best you can do? For shame…
With regards to your earlier assertions, this is not about Austin vs. the rest of the world. China, India, or other markets are irrelevant. “There is a world beyond Texas where Formula 1 is huge.” Matters not one whit, when it comes to UT football vs. an F1 race. Football will make the decision that is in their best interest, period.
Shame on me? You are a guest on my blog. I allow you a voice. I am accepting of almost everything, but when I have explained something twice and all I get is chest-beating that ignores the points I have made, I have every right to express that frustration. What makes you think that you have a right to pour shame on me?
Joe —
You put out an assertion here that we are debating. That we don’t see it your way is understandably frustrating — I’ve had that happen to me.
However, yes, your long-term goal is to have the hottest blog on the ‘Web, and yes, I’m pointing traffic to you. That I don’t agree with you makes good content, don’t you think?
If you knew anything about this blog you would know that I do not give a damn about the traffic. You make assumptions that are wrong.
And for the record, the major problem with the assertion is the same as with all F1’s economic impact assertions — namely, if the economic impact was so good, why the looooong list of sites that have been forced to close? Betting against any F1 venue-not-named-Monoco is a pretty safe bet…
I believe the name is Monaco.
No one has ignored, just not necessarily agreed. Don’t be rude to your guests. Bad form. The shame is self-inflicted. 🙂
Rude guests get told their fortune. That’s life.
Except only the blogger has been rude.
You should correct this in your original post as it is inaccurate: “Having said that the University of Texas does have some wriggle space as there is a free weekend for the Longhorns on November 23”
UT may have an open date on the 23rd but without an opponent that poses a problem.
Cheers from Austin. 🙂
So you think that calling someone arrogant is not rude. Sorry, but I consider that rude, particularly if it is patently not true.
The University of Texas does have a free weekend on November 23.
Not if it’s accurate and it appears to be, unlike your free weekend comment, since their scheduled opponent is not available that day, since they’d be at home taking on the Bears.
Please provide evidence why viewing numbers would be down if Austin swapped with Brazil.
Given your apparent love of politeness, you might say please. Brazil is the last race because there are time differences involved. It is always the most-watched race of the year and it was chosen as the last race because of the time zones.
Digital, Joe has been hospitable to you more than you deserve. You like to tell how much you know, why not now tell us how your F1 experience compares to his?
for digital, and maybe others,
Sorry, but I do feel the need to butt in here.
“Insightful”, not “inciteful”.
There’s plenty I cannot agree with Joe. If I don’t, I either put that in a careful attempt at cohesive argument, or forget it.
How hard is that for a kind of – absolutely unofficial – “blog rule”?
And don’t think for a second I have any special privilege here.
. . .
Speaking up because just had a week of certain persons accusing others with their own mistakes. See the spelling difference, above. You are fortunately not whom I am thinking of, but they are the lowest of the low.
Whoever incites and tries not to have insight spoils things for a great number of people. Explain, educate, entertain. Or just speak as you would to a stranger. These things, and much curiosity of conversation, have contributed lifeblood to what otherwise is a piece of software on a computer.
You get more news for free here than maybe any place you might pay for.
Yes, some of what Joe writes here is controversial. So it ought to be. There’s no Party Line from The Soviet Ecclestone, or anyone else, to be towed. Read GP+ if you want the deeper explanations. Or, better, Joe’s Business title, almost too much of which is granted gratis, here.
I’ve had a pretty fair number of my comments deleted, but when better written, the arguments were allowed and published. Stupid ones went to the bin, fairly and thankfully.
So, just don’t take it so personally. Every single regular I recognise here puts real effort in to what they submit. That’s what makes this place good. Often times I feel I am missing someone or another who is usually about.
This is no palace of adulation, but certainly a house to respect. I love it, and it has been a joy, a education, at times a solace, and occasionally a personal inspiration.
But don’t think that because Joe’s name is atop he thinks we all must genuflect. Some bloggers do indeed think that way. They usually don’t succeed at anything.
If I were to tell you the pittance online ad networks pay for page views (and etc) you might well think Joe some tea boy lackey trying hard.
Well, there you have maybe why people treat blogs so rudely. Because the money is almost never enough to get you out of your mom’s basement.
(Have a swipe, I look after my octogenarian mum and so save the different place, live at home again.)
Have you read much of here?
I found it by far the most educative place to read, for a website.
Nor do I care for defending myself, because if I was that good, I’d ask a fee. I simply feel better here, and there’s more reward than pocket money, and other currencies more important to life.
Joe can certainly be grumpy. Have you never seen anyone who knows their trade getting upset with someone who thinks they reinvented the wheel? I am not assuming about you, but I cannot think how anyone can not have had that experience who has been gainfully employed.
But because of all the criticism that may be fairly levelled at Joe, that is, if you could care to spot it, because it is hard to find – this all without the slightest denigration of character – that is why this place has been so tolerant.
Please see something good for what it is, not try to attach to “another blog” the intellectual starvation or associated behaviour that is so commonplace.
Any new voice is at least welcomed by me when I read the comments. But hackneyed speech and adhominem or plain absence of courtesy are not what makes this unique place work.
Every word written online by a mere commenter is some act of faith, that anyone may care to look.
As such a person, I know how rewarding it is that anyone may ever appreciate my words. But whether someone says banally “+1” in reply, or engages seriously, there is a delight to be had in this past time.
It is not one that requires anyone to demand of others a reaction, either (see spelling, above) but it can be so enjoyable, howsoever the outcome, and frankly I never once felt insulted by those here who wrote I should bugger off. Any of the few times that happened, I tried to recompose my thoughts and style, because I’m not going to spoil a good party. There is tolerance in abundance, for the very reason you might be accusing this place of being biased.
If something feels wrong, it can probably be made better. The likeliest person able to do so is you. So please try, and join in.
I appreciate your words.
Thanks Jem! I guess if I can’t sell my writing I might have one buyer for my words!! Reminds me sadly how a local book store once made more by bundling up old copies as “firestarters” than they did selling as books . . Lovely days, when they would leave 8 foot high shelving outdoors unattended, put your payment in the box, please. I’m, not even that old, and not from so tiny a place, but I really would give my right arm for just some of the sense of well being that civic trust gave to me as a boy. Let’s at least please think the same way here.
The fix I come here for is exactly that kind of feeling.
A lot of my friends think the welfare state created to the layabout and lift culture we have today. My Latin master at prep liked to relate a possibly tall story how, when trains were nationalised, a passenger alighting the carriage before him, and a beautiful brass door handle fell off. The man pocketed it. “It’s all OURS now”.
Sorry for being late to the discussion but just wanted to add this point that was only peripherally touched on. There is one other major event in the fall in Austin, the Austin City Limits (ACL) music festival. It is a wildly successful 3 day event that sells out well before the lineup is known, i.e. people plunk down their money without knowing a single artist who will be there. Roughly 70,000 fans attend each day Friday – Sunday. ACL have always worked with UT football to avoid schedule conflicts. Keep in mind many of the concert attendees are college students who will gladly sleep on the floor and eat Taco Bell – not exactly the same as the typical F1 fan. Even so they didn’t want to schedule both events on the same weekend.
ACL is so successful that they decided to expand the festival to two consecutive weekends starting next year and worked with UT to find a two weekend open period. They decided to expand a year before so they had time to work this out. Asking UT – and the Big 12 Conference – to schedule around 3 weekends, on such short notice is a big ask.
The only hope we have is that “money talks” and one person involved in both UT and F1 is Red McComb, who happens to be a majority owner of the track as well as being the person after who the UT Mccom Schoold of Business is named after.
ACL has the good fortune to only be looking for one or two weekends a year in one city.
The F1 calendar is long and stretches across 5 continents, it’s easy to say “why not move the race?” but if you move the US race you have to try to swap slots with another grand prix and/or face the logistical issues of flying all the equipment back and forth around the world.
You hit clashes with other events (see previous discussions about British Grand Prix and avoiding the Wimbledon finals) which annoy broadcasters and tie up available hotel rooms – this discussion would just happen again but with angry Brazilians talking about clashing with a major football (soccer!) derby game or similar issues.
(Note : there’s one race which embraces clashes with a major event in the area and it’s Monaco – which inevitably runs during the Cannes Film Festival because it does F1 no harm to have A-list film stars swanning around the place)
From a logistics point of view, the best slot for Austin is the 16th of June, straight after Canada. But it’ll be insanely hot (so sayeth Wikipedia: daily average high of 33.3°C – record of 42°C) and that’s just not clever – unless someone is willing to put up some serious money to floodlight the track and run a dusk/night race.
This has been a very interesting post and there have been many thoughtful comments and discussions with considerable give and take and interesting perspectives. The topic seems to have been interesting to many people and I would like to thank Joe for all his comments. I understand Joe’s point that F1 is a worldwide market and operates with a business plan such that FOM don’t care if COTA makes money or not, as they (FOM) are guaranteed a profit and have a product they can sell worldwide. I also understand many of the comments, mine included, expressing frustration with the way FOM markets themselves. I wish them success in the US but don’t expect it.
With all due respect to all, if a business arrangement is to work, it has to work for all parties, in this case COTA and FOM. If COTA can make a profit, all is well. However, if it’s a financial loss, the race will no longer exist.At the moment, FOM wants as much as three races in the US. If COTA does not secure a profit for next year because FOM’s non-flexibility, it potentially could have a dire effect on the aspirations of FOM’s other future endevours in the U.S. Currently we have a very large market for Mercedes-Benz in the U.S. and also manufactures Mercedes Benz vehicles in the U.S., as well as Detroit Diesel, Freightliner, and Western Star products… not forgetting their finance businesses in the U.S. Ferrari also enjoys it’s largest market worldwide in the U.S., not forgetting that the parent company FIAT owns Chrysler (who just dropped out of NASCAR).. then not forgetting Renault, who markets the Red Bull engines as Infinity… where they were originally introduced and is also Infinity’s largest, and most established market. Lets not forget Nissan and all of it’s subsidies. The point here, of course is that the manufacturers involved want a U.S. presence for their enormous investment in F1. Now, if I were an investor and were looking at hosting and supporting an F1 event in say New Jersey or perhaps California, I’d certainly look very closely at the how Austin was treated after spending $400M on a facility. After making that sort of an investment in a market that FOM was attempting to re-enter, especially on such a grandiose scale, I certainly would expect to see FOM bend over backwards in order to accommodate their clients in Austin. If they didn’t, I certainly would walk away from any of their proposals. Customer service is paramount in any industry in this day and age and auto racing on any scale is no exception to the rule.
FOM has three kinds of customer: promoters, sponsors and TV companies.
Sponsors get the global reach they want. Sure, they want more ROI, but they are satisfied.
TV companies get what they want, a good TV show which is what advertisers and/or subscribers will pay for.
Customer service is the business that the race promoters are in. FOM provides them with the equipment. If they build their business model without government aid then they are giving the country/region something for nothing. They set ticket prices and if they are smart they find the correct balance.
It is a misconception that FOM’s customers are the fans. Perhaps they should be, but they are not. And the sport continues to grow.
And one more category, if I may be so bold: those who are working out how or why to sponsor or be involved. That’s the future market, and what matters, in my belief, to whether we shall see the rear grid fall away in the next year or so.
And another, who I would say is every parent wondering why their kid is not showing any interest in other sport. I had no choice with being interested in Squash Rackets, that was family life. But what for who cares not for football, soccer, tennis, is stuck at some computer game?
I am merely hoping that as I get older, there will be for real a youthful crowd. Maybe just stats or happenstance will secure much of that. But Bernie is like the guy who has built too many factories and designed too few products.
Just a guy who wants to take his one time kids to a race where they don’t think they’ve accidentally walked into a care home!
If the largest of your three important customers is TV (Based on how much $$$$ they pony up for programming rights) isn’t it logical that they ONLY pay these vast sums based on the FANS who watch?
If the fans stop watching, and the ratings drop, why would they continue to pay huge money to FOM?
You can’t discount the fan (either at the track or on TV) as it is the basis of ALL of F1’s money making capability.
Your assertion that the sport continues to grow is somewhat analogous to a pyramid scheme; It continues to grow but is built on the ashes of promoters and events no longer viable (Turkey, Korea, France, Hungary, Shanghai, etc). These did not work because the FANS did not support them in their local markets.
The sport continues to grow with very real revenues. It is not a pyramid scheme. It has plenty of satisfied customers.
And it could of course, fall apart *if* it were such a pyramid scheme.
But look at who runs pyramid schemes, and wonder if they ever had a business bone in their bodies?
There are without doubt legitimate grievances in the details of F1 business. But to call one of the hardest working professional sports a “pyramid scheme” is to throw your bottles back at the milkman, claiming it isn’t sufficiently fresh. That milkman was up hours before you.
I just cannot understand, when people are presumably fans that they make any comment on a F1 blog, that they so readily attribute low and beneath low habits to who works their hearts out to put on the show.
Maybe it’s because people do not understand much of the financing behind F1. A cheap way is to read back this blog. A fair value way is to get Business of Motorsport. A less cheap way – like many many people who comment here – is to spend a life either in the sport or in finance or both.
It is true, that there is serious doubt whether the economy familiar to anyone less than 60 years of age may continue. But if anything can adapt fast, I’d bet on the boys in F1. Not specifically Bernie. I mean there’s enough talent there who if not spoiled by rotten bosses, could readily “multitask” to tack into the good wind in a new economy. So many of the skills and tools are comparable. You just don’t feel any glory, taking home a bonus from a bulge bracket bank, at least I imagine which one feels better.
Not saying that’ll be perfect, either, 20 years is about when I think people start to really learn their business. Assuming absolute dedication. But I’m still not betting against so many minds who dream numbers to go faster, against any crowd.
I don’t think I’ll recognise F1 within a couple of years. I think it has to change, beyond what is expected now. Not to mention who, sadly, will be gone. But the change is what excites me. No change is no opportunity. Has the off season become just a time to whine, or a time to reflect and improve? Not a soul in any team is not pushing themselves now. Find me a equal business to compare. (I awake at night trying to break through to discovering how to create such atmosphere) Just in that you have a reason why big companies like to be associated with F1.
Absolutely agree.
Plenty of satisfied customers for now. But do you at least agree that the fan base is becoming jaded over the high cost of attending a race or paying for the TV subscriptions to watch?
I equated F1 as SIMILAR to a pyramid scheme. While FOM is not paying returns to new investors with cash flow from prior investors (as in a classic pyramid scheme) it continues to infuse the business with new investment built on the backs of the failures of other promoters.
If my stretch was defective in its comparative analysis I believe the lack of available new racing promoters (similar to new investors which ultimately collapses pyramid schemes) will eventually catch up to The Bernard and the fees they extract.
20 races a year seems to be the practical working limit, where will they turn when the supply of new suckers eventually dries up and they then have to reduce their sanctioning fees across the board?
No I don’t agree.
Wow!
This has been the most instructive and informed discussion I think ever hosted here. I’ve just sent the link as required reading to the now 3 guys I am training.
It is just trivia, but my first exposure – sadly via relay – was to a UT game. The sheer intensity of college football enthralls me. Whoever above, pointed out it treats its stars as indentured servants has a real point, however. Players often choose to play ball over real academic scholarships to the cream of American universities, and that’s such a gamble at the age you can play ball, they you have surrounding entourages offering “advice”. At one point, the floors of CME and CBOT (NYMEX was always pretty thin) were littered with ex ball players and sportsmen of all kinds. You might think being a floor trader is somehow crude, if you prefer to be in the upstairs office, with a polished desk, aspidistra and a cutie making you tea, but this was before handheld computers came in, and you go do options math in your head whilst a hundred guys don;t just hout at you, but muscle your spot. Another good hire for trading is any army boy who delivered ordinance to the enemy. I’m so nearly on my “Math is second nature you just haven’t learned you know” rant . . but I’ve a half-life to promote that, still.Baseball is ballistics, and math, too.
I actually believe the narrative arc of who gave up academia to play ball is one of the classical American filmic themes. Billy Beane anyone?
If I had kids, or the chance to take any of my friend’s youngsters on what would be a fair trip from London, college football would absolutely be on my list of unmissable experiences. Or maybe that’s just me, because I have yet to get for real to a game.
I can hardly add to the exhaustive discussion above – please please leave comments open for longer, Joe – but the whole point of F1 making it in the USA ought to be a matter of pride. Infamously, the trader who was studied amongst others for The Bonfire Of The Vanities, called his London office colleagues “eurofaggots”. Having just surfaced from a week in which I am unsure my hours, but well over 100. Well past that, this week, and yet somehow I managed to cook us a not disappointing dinner before passing out. I totally agree. F1 in America is about making it work, not doing your own thing. Thought there is of course subtlety in that, because if Bernie was not Bernie, he’d be another Rodney Dangerfield.
I personally don’t care about the numbers, for me, if you cannot sell stateside, you are not trying hard enough. And as a Limey Brit, I am still learning the hard way, how such diversity also unites into very strong cultural simultaneity, and that’s with most of my family there.
Jem had a lovely one, above. Texan women unattractive? If you ever think that, you were born blind _and deaf! But by the same virtue, having run out to do some shopping at 0700 Sat, we need a GP in Bethnal Green. It was hard to safely cross the road, and I am most happily taken. Maybe this is the reason why rentals about here long surpassed, psqft, much of central London?
The incompatibility I fear that makes F1 so hard to take root in America, is that it offers so little of the “make good” aspects of life. It is surely technically the most advanced sport, but essentially anyone who starts from the grid has already “made it”. So we whine about lack of talent more than admire who is coming through the field.
This is a personal perspective, because I was almost hard programmed on a trajectory that to this day causes me considerable difficulty socially. Why did I give that up? Was i plain no good? A deadbeat? And then there is never not a twinge of jealousy, because so few had the start in life I was bestowed.
Of that mentality, of making it, from wherever you start, there is insufficient in F1, by my belief. Thanking sponsors and teams is not enough. Our F1 boys about never talk of how the breaks or busts in their life rewarded or punished. Obviously, we have many for whom English is second or even third language. But where is their passion? Seriously, I want to read how Lewis really feels about hsi move, not have snippets of thought, possibly squeezed through the dementia that is modern PR, or edited because there’s nobody really getting deeply into these driver’s psychiis. Because of the precision and incredible technique required to pilot a F1 car, we have both the anemic results of young men who have dedicated the greater portion of their loves simply to learning that, as well as a cultural – often fan driven – obsession with the technicalia. In the past year I found myself becoming a Lewis fan, when he opened his mouth to say what he means and feels. Yet at the same time, XIX running his image is to me demeaning of the man, or at the very least retarding of what just looked like true development of a character. People think he wants to hang with the Hip Hop crew. Listened to any German Hip Hop? My biz partner’s nephew is a multi platinum selling artist in that genre, and you’d never know, a true gentlemen unassuming and of every social grace, and the genre is vast and varied sufficiently I am stunned at every new track I hear. I don’t want “Lewis The Brand” sold to me. I want him to sell him to me. Then. I wager, he’s need no agent to big him up, people who otherwise need no [promotion would be banging on his door.
Rambling or not, it’s personality that has to be sold. Especially in a vast English speaking market where Formula Uhn might as well be Formula WTF. So Seb V can curse on Letterman. I have some potty mouth during work hours. I loose my voice often enough to have to urse across the internal messaging. But that SV moment will have offput so many i dare not think. Let alone the parents who want their kids to be ayyracted to a wholesome sport. It’s in my book called telling someone to “go F themselves” in style. Watch some Eddie Murphy or Richard Prior standup. If you must cuss, learn how it’s done.
. . .
Anyhow, I think Austin is the best thing that has happened to F1 in a long long while.
If Bernie cared, he’s insist developers (it was only $400MM, wasn’t it? he’d require some hotel chain to provide hostelry a walk away. The glamor of The Paddock Club and the pitlane or the few is the darned attraction.Does nobody get the idea that a attraction is aspirational but that aspiration cannot be there, unless who has not yet made it can learn and aspire for themselves?
Sponsors are being short changed by this blinkered view of privileges.
The nearby hoteliers may have piled in and gouged. Personally, for all those who spiked their room rates and ran “F1” promotions, I’d know the trademark attorney who would persuade you to be more modest, next season.
I think F1 is resurfacing in sponsorship because other markets are failing. I just took delivery of my new home office firewall, that possibly can block all the Orwellian, electricity and compute cycle thieving ad network JavaScript that turns your machine into a plaything computer for others unknown. The subscription to the essential software live updating alone is 400 bucks PA*
But build plain motels near tracks people can afford, find ways to make attendance a viable option so that at least a fairly employed family might make a few races of their favorites, and *then* you would see the advertisers come back.
*If you are strictly a home user, but with some basic savvy, Sophos actually give most of their good stuff away fro free. Which is what runs on the Netgear hardware. But even that hardware, I needed what it gave me in that form, tests better than $20K competition from Cisco. Get the free ISOs from Sophos, if you can cobble a machine to run those. This may be the only way not to surf safely whilst not breaking thew sites you need.
Finally, and I did have so much on my mind, this has been the most awesome discussion thread, thanks so much, I need to read again myself, much to learm.
all best to all ~ joj
I would like to formally deny any and all allegations that I impugned the good reputation of the fine young ladies of Texas.
Especially the ones smart enough to understand the above sentence.
I shall be graciously willing to accept, as proxy, the slap to the face your comments most vivaciously deserve!
Just a thought, because of course there are “all motorsports” magazines out there, we need someone with the balls to so a Sports Illustrated to cover this game. It’s insane budget; where I started out had the UK franchise and despite one of the most interestingly intoxicated take no prisoners sales depts, could not sustain their deal. (hardly a half hearted effort, I might add, but I reckon that entire company traded less than the value of production required to hit the spot I am thinking of)
Hailing from England, 50K sales feels healthy. Erm, nope, you need to think 750K and above to touch the US market. That means tough enough to get space on WalMart shelves. And boy is that hard ball. There was once even a magazine about classical music that sold just shy of 1MM copies monthly, admittedly in the hey day of vinyl LPs. But I reckon you can do it still.
I don’t mind being taken down a strip by the online game (is 25% off goog’s sales YOY just a casual thing? Quote me online revenue versus print?) but I also have a very good idea of what it would take to start such a thing, and Haymarket doesn’t have it. Ouch, think I just found a personal dream. Knock it down at your leisure. You might have to look hard at US postal rates to understand why who are still huge are throwing in the towel as to print, but to me there’s a gaping hole to be filled. Meanwhile, dear Cousins across the pond, please look at GP+ and imagine how that might be expanded, given Joe et.al. are rare F1 nuts who know their US racing too.
I have to say it again, nothing to do with GP+, it plain stinks how little we reach out to make a impression. Who of the teams has a office in, say, Burbank, or Manhattan? Can they not afford? (Rubbish, of course, at least for the front end) Not even a PR agent in SF? Whilst I never doubt the ingenuity and ability of F1 teams, sometimes if you want to sell, get yourself on the ground or go cast it into the sea. The illogic of a English language predominant sport treating the largest English language market of all with something akin to disdain has always stunned me. If you think it cannot work, look at the Hispanic market, and connect that with sponsors who have just arrived.
Maybe these are just trends, but if they are, go pile in.
The way to beat out CVC et.al. is to fix the market effort. It might be a expensive sport, but the list of people who could eat it whole for breakfast is very long. If it was shorter, I reckon Bernie would not have created a Poison Pill Pharmacy. Maybe in there, you have a reason for the reticence to engage.
You might not care for a Mark Cuban in charge, but we need teams, more teams, maybe even a ALMS style semi series. I know Joe points out fairly that there is indeed sense to play the sporting civic citizen, and I agree for some locations at least, but what you want is bottom up money thrown at a sport. Of course, most will fail. Nature of it. But stop making this the sport which sniffs at billionaires or just plain smart not poor guys wanting in.
Forgive me, if you can find a way, but F1 being real in America is a personal dream. Give me 100 full spec teams, racing wherever. It’s not the clockwise of the circuit or aversion to rain that prevents this.
Off now to complain as to the quality of the coke I have been smoking 🙂
This is tantamount to scheduling an F1 race the same weekend as the World Cup Final in the same city. You may not understand the nature of the Texas-Oklahoma Weekend, but that doesn’t change the true nature of it vis-a-vis the local populace. Poor headwork on the part of the FIA. Or just another kick in the teeth because they can.
Obviously I am not an expert in these matters, but I believe the game is against Oklahoma State, not against the University of Oklahoma (the Sooners) and therefore is not the celebrated Red River Game, which takes place on October 12. However, this being Texas I guess you can have two World Cup Finals each year!
You are right that it isn’t the Mecca of the conference, but it will still draw 100,000 spectators. This places extreme stress on the local infrastructure. Is this another example of Bernie not caring about – or considering the home country? Sort of like proposing a French GP the same weekend as Le Mans?
The local infrastructure will survive, indeed it will generate more revenues for the city, and some of the fans in town for the football will no doubt find their way to the race track
It would seem that at least one fundamental mistake here would be the assumption that F1 is merely going up against University of Texas Football. Texas Football is the richest college sports program on the planet, financially more potent than the vast majority of all professional sports teams. That would a difficult enough fight for F1/COTA to win, but that’s not the end of it.
F1/COTA may be taking on the richest & one of the most powerful universities in America and one of the richest in the world. The University has history here, and a very large footprint. In one way or another, it is connected to virtually everything & everyone that makes Austin what it is.
For disclosure, I’m not pulling for one side or the other in such a conflict. I’m an avid F1 fan and football fan who graduated from UT in 1989. I’m just calling it like I see it.
Why do you see it as F1 going up against football? Perhaps one should look at it as the two complementing each other.
Joe,
You were in Austin. So was I. They did a grand job handling the influx of people, setting up transportation, organizing activities, etc. They were also pretty much stressed to the max, Add another 100,000 visitors and the infrastructure will begin to crumble. Now BOTH sets of fans will be offered less than either group would have achieved on its own. And, Austin will be deprived of a second financially rewarding weekend by cramming both sets of visitors into one weekend that possibly could do damage to the reputation of the city as being able to put on a grand show. The “possibility” of some football fans developing an attraction to F1 is a very minor argument.