What Sebastian Vettel might learn from Shakespeare…

I have been travelling since just a few hours after the Malaysian GP. That allowed some decent sleep after a heavy race weekend in physically-draininhg conditions. Now, en route between Dubai and Paris, it has provided some time to think about the implications of the bad blood in KL between the Red Bull team-mates.

Sebastian Vettel has probably not read much of William Shakespeare. Perhaps he should have done. If he had, he might have known about Mark Anthony’s celebrated speech at Julius Caesar’s funeral, which relates that “the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones”.

So let it be with Vettel. Sebastian is a highly intelligent and hugely talented racer and until Sunday the worst one could say about him was that he did not give enough away much about his real character, and thus came across as rather bland, despite the odd petulant outburst. He has made some mistakes in his career, but he was never really unsporting in his behaviour. He seemed an honourable man. After Malaysia there is no doubt at all that he is willing to go beyond the acceptable to win races.

After the race he said that he was sorry and had done wrong, but the admission of guilt does not change the implications: Vettel has the World Championship points and his apology, while half-decent PR, is irrelevant. Let’s not be silly here. Vettel knew exactly what he was doing. He knew he was going against team orders; he knew that Webber would be furious and he was bargaining on the fact that Red Bull Racing would allow him to get away with it.

He is probably right. Webber made no bones of the fact that he did not expect anything from the team. Vettel, he said, in his anger, would “be protected as usual”.

That one phrase let the genie out of the bottle and placed the question firmly in the public domain. The “as usual” hints at stresses and strains within the team which risk blowing the dynamics apart. Perhaps Mark will continue to fight for a team that he does not believe is really behind him. Perhaps not. If he truly believes that Vettel is favoured, then it is hard not to argue that Mark is in the wrong place.

The incident in Malaysia will have other implications as well: it will show whether or not the Red Bull Racing management is running the team, or whether Sebastian Vettel can do as he pleases. If a driver is allowed to call the shots then the team management loses all of its authority. Christian Horner said that Vettel had done the wrong thing, but said that he could see no point in calling up the German and ordering him to give back the place. One team boss I spoke to after the race said that if Vettel had been his driver, he would have called him into the pits just to make the point that it is the team, rather than the driver, who calls the shots. The other thing I heard was that Red Bull’s F1 consultant Dr Helmut Marko was very unhappy about what happened, perhaps because he realises that the team’s credibility (and his own) is being undermined. Perhaps in time this will be seen as the first point at which the Vettel-Red Bull relationship began to break down because Vettel got too big for his boots. Perhaps not. But whatever the case there is a lot at stake.

Unless Sebastian can do something to right the wrong he has done in more than nominal fashion he is now forever going to be seen as unscrupulous. He has done the very thing that has blighted Michael Schumacher’s reputation in the sport. Yes, Michael won a lot of titles, but on several occasions he proved that his moral compass was flawed and so people always tended to see the bad in him. That was fair enough. It looked for a long time that Vettel was smarter than his idol and that he had a little more integrity and sportsmanship than Schumacher. It is rather sad that he has proved himself to be wanting.

There are some who argue that a racing driver’s job is to win and that there should not be team orders. I think that is naïve. Teams need to have such structures in order to keep things under control.

The other thing Malaysia has done is something positive. It has given the F1 world a story to tell with good guys and bad guys. It will produce large amounts of copy and loads of sound bites, and that will create more interest in F1. In this respect it is good. There are bound to be a lot of red herrings thrown into the arguments as well. We saw that with Webber when he had begun to calm down. He proved himself to be a real team player by using the incident between the drivers as a justification for Red Bull’s arguments about the Pirelli tyres spoiling the show. He said that if the tyres were different this situation would not have arisen. Red Bull says that the tyres are not good for the sport. Rivals teams say that Red Bull is simply trying to get the rules changed because the cars were not as competitive as they might be. Campaigning for rule changes has often been used by Red Bull Racing in the past when things are not going its way. It uses its financial and political clout in order to try to sway the F1 powerbrokers. I hope that they remain steadfast… and do the right thing.

And I hope that Vettel does likewise.

587 thoughts on “What Sebastian Vettel might learn from Shakespeare…

  1. Also note – Helmut Marko calling out Mercedes as a team of ‘number ones and number twos’ with Toto Wolff standing right behind him.

    The guy is a class clown.

  2. You hit the nail on the head with the comparison to Schmacker “Der chopper”. Vettel might as well drop his pretense of being a team player as well.
    I feel for Mark, because he is an honourable, team man. An asset to any F1 team on the grid. Maybe it’s a good thing he only signs 1 year deals…

  3. Excellent article!

    However I really doubt that any team, when push came to shove, would throw away a podium voluntarily like that.

  4. I agree that Seb showed a new and undesirable side to his character in this incident and it will be interesting to see how the situation is managed by Red Bull as we move ahead. I doubt we will see any repetition as Seb seems contrite, but we’ll see. It has certainly achieved extra publicity for F1 and got more people talking about the sport we love, which can only be a good thing.

    At least the Red Bull shenanigans helped to deflect attention from the perhaps questionable use of team orders by Mercedes when they denied Nico the podium finish he deserved and gifted it to Lewis. Is this how it’s going to be this year? Has Nico had a “thou shalt not pass” clause added to his contract? 🙂

  5. Would you expect, given the opportunity, Vettel to move over for Webber at some point in the future when he would have otherwise won?

    I don’t see how else he could right the wrong but I also can’t see a man like Webber accepting such a thing.

  6. It spoilt the race for me, and for a lot of other people as well, judging by comments on various (non-F1) forums that I frequent.

    Vettel may come good and make it up to Webber, but I think it will take a big nudge from Marko to make him do it.

    Webber has shown a lot of the good side of his character, long may it continue.

        1. It is entirely different to KL. Mark was showing that he could have overtaken Sebastian, but he did not do do it. He knew the order was not to change positions and he respected that order. Obeying an order about a three second gap, is not the same as taking the place.

          1. No Joe, Mark tried to pass and failed, because SB is just a better driver. Being incompetent soes undermine the fact that he disobeyed team orders.

              1. So who is right in his opinion? Surely there must be a possibility to prove this? Maybe with the help of telemetry data? Could you ask a RBR engineer about this stuff? Perhaps Mr Newey himself? How is your contact to him? Would he honestly answer your questions, Mr Saward? I would love to hear the answer to this complex topic.

                1. I get on fine with Adrian. We have known each other for early 30 years. However I would not expect anyone to give me telemetry and I would not ask.

                  1. Thanks, you are right about the telemetry stuff, it’s probably not advisable to ask this an engineer.

  7. Joe
    would be interested in your comparison to the LH/NR situation where I believe Merc should have allowed Nico through, he had saved his fuel and Lewis had not, so why punish Nico.
    I am not a fan of this new save fuel/save tyres racing. It is so false and not F1 in my opinion

  8. Great article Joe. I couldn’t agree more.

    My only thought is weather Vettel has another contract with another team in his pocket for next year to give him the arrogance to behave in such a way. Mark Webber alluded to a lot in his post race interviews and the perception was that Webber may leave the team. However, It could also be read that he thinks Vettel can now walk over the team as his future is secure elsewhere, and he no long needs the support of Red Bull. Helmut ‘Happy Harry’ Marko’s comments after the race where negative towards Vettel too – first as far as I remember. Maybe he knows something we don’t!

    Vetted should be suspended for one race to allow a ‘test seat’ to become available in China.

  9. In hindsight, I think he simply could not help himself.

    Time and time again Seb has proved to be a Number 1 driver, Webber a Number 2, no question whatsoever. Webber has repeatedly refused to accept this and we are all treated to his whining posturing, underdog, little man BS just to excuse his failures.

    This is the man who a few months ago tried to ram Seb off the track into T1 when he was racing Alonso for the WDC. Personally, if I ran the team I would have kicked his bony whining ar$e all the way from Interlagos back to Oxfordshire, then sacked him for that. It was overshadowed by the 3x WDC for Seb, but needs comment and attention. Like Kubica’s grotesque attempt to ram Lewis off the track, also at Interlagos, likewise, as he clinched a very close WDC, it seems Lady Karma punishes those transgressors that the public overlook.

    I cannot wait for Webber to get his comeuppance, the constant kicked puppy snivveling, reliance on crass Nationalism and wishful Nationalist stereotypes, choke on it Mark, you are AussieGrit, not because you are a [self styled] tough guy, but for the amusing rhyming slang interpretation.

    1. Jesus, where did that come from?
      Seb’s quick but gets preferential treatment in that team with support and equipment to match. Webber’s car always seems to have KERS issues, telemetry issues, old wing issues or any other bloody issues RB want to throw at him to keep him in his place. Seb stabbed him in the back while he wasn’t looking. Not the stuff of a champion, Seb wins races but he’s not a champion fellow, Lost all respect for him last Sunday.

      1. I don’t think RBR would intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers through fabricated technical gremlins, it doesn’t make sense to me. If they would think Webber is too fast for Vettel, they would sign a slower driver instead of Webber.

      2. I’m sure Webber saw him coming, and what Webber did in Brazil last year (when the championship was at stake) what not nicer, or maybe he had a team order not to let Seb pass?

  10. Interesting contrast between Red Bull and Merc – and in particular in the strength of character of, and respect shown to, the team bosses involved.

  11. Ok, Vettel does now have the championship points but what if he is behind Webber later this year in the final race and he need Webber’s points…

    Will Mark let Seb pass to give him his fourth championship…

        1. Hi Joe,
          Thanks for your article. Before I get into my point I would like to say that there are probably somethings that we dont see or have a complete picture that you probably have and to some extent we are all biased by what we hear, weather its more info or less info.
          I have an objection with the above line of reasoning. Vettel did not loose the championship that was the fact but he could have. The result depended on many things but Webber’s Action was to not help. So the Action is the same in both cases (Brazil/silverstone and Malyasia) the result is different, so why does the result nullify the action?? Webber in the past did not obey team orders and he clearly said he will not, so how is this situation any different? Is it because it so happened that Webber’s Action didnt cause any difference in the outcome that the media didnt condem his actions? He was praised for not obeying team orders, so what is different.

          Let me say that I am assuming that there is something more that is not apparent to me that explains the difference in the two situations, for which Webber is treated right in both the situations.
          Just so you know, I am not German or Australian. I do though think Vettel is one of the best in the recent history along with Alonso.

          1. Team orders are only applied when they need to be. Mark winning in Brazil did affect Sebastian’s Championship. It still happened. Therefore there was no need to apply team orders.

            1. I still think that Webber played a nasty trick to Seb on the opening lap in Brazil last year, and that almost (and only because Seb is a great driver) lost the championship to Seb. Do you think Webber got a team order to impede Seb at that stage? Or is there the need for a team order to avoid that kind of behaviour?

        2. Actually I like Webber more than before because he refused to accept team orders in Silverstone and Brazil. The man really has a spine. And I feel the same about Vettel after Malaysia. I would have lost some respect for Vettel had he simply given up to race because he was told so by politicians. In Malaysia Vettel demonstrated that he’s a real racer. Good on him.

          1. Exactly. Independent minds do not get impressed by PC nannies who would like to re-write history. Well done Seb! Just what the great Michael would have done.

            1. Nice to see that you have learned nothing from this blog. Read the story about the history of team orders and you will see that writing about them being PC is simply ignorant. Still if you wish to publicize the fact that you don’t know anything about the sport and are not willing to learn then you have achieved your goal. Well done!

              1. Methinks an “accredited journalist” does complain too much.

                No less than the civilising process depends on learning, i. e. discerning true from false, as any self-respecting, radically uncompromising, Rothbardian-Hoppean Austro-Libertarian would know.

                Six decades+ ago teams were owned/run by enterprising individuals who didn’t exactly suffer fools gladly and who rightfully gave their orders without dumbing down races. Having since been hijacked (fraudulently bought for peanuts) by the global financial mob and “run” by their corporate suits, F1 has been reduced to a pathetic risk averse PC scam featuring billboards on wheels. In spite of it, one looks forward to more real action from the likes of Seb, Kimi, Lew, Felipe, Jense, Sergio.

                I don’t recall you being mentioned during the 1981 British GP, last I attended, (pitpass courtesy of Williams) and have no recollection whatsoever of you being present in my first, the 1949 Rosario GP, one of a dozen ‘Temporada’ races European F1 teams joined for a number of years after WWII in order to finance their F1 and road races back in Europe.

                Cheer up!!

  12. Vettel certainly needs to be careful. As you say, Schumacher has gone down as a flawed character and, despite his impressive career stats, isn’t usually mentioned with Fangio, Senna, et al because he’s perceived as a cheat. Vettel is still OK but much more of this and he will be tainted.

    Isn’t it ironic that Mercedes just behind the Red Bulls dealt with things much better. One could really stir the political pot and say that say that Rosberg has proved that he is Finnish not German; he did the honorable thing.

    1. After Suzuka 1990 you can’t argue that Senna was a great racing driver. He could have killed Alain Prost and himself in that disgusting unsportive action.

          1. Don’t be so damned rude. There is a very clear difference between what happened in these occasions. If you do not understand the difference then you do not know or understand very much about F1.

            1. hilarious. when someone disagrees with you he doesnt know much about F1. LOL. like you know a lot about it…your blog is nice because there are people that comment with some objectivity about it, and your articles are good to read. you just think your always right. Whatever you may think webber is a number 2 driver because when push come to shove he is a loser. period. TBH the fight made the race interesting, otherwise the last 15 laps were the most boring ever. if webber thought he was superior he could have retaken the lead. or at least tried.

              1. I repeat the message I sent to someone else in this thread.

                I don’t think you fully understand the concept of this blog. I give my opinion. I don’t HAVE to justify it to you or to anyone else. I base my opinion on the experience of 30 years activity in motorsport and more than 400 consecutive Grands Prix, at which I have unusually good access to the people who make F1 happen. This does not make me a genius, but I have a pretty decent idea about how and why things happen. I always try to look at things in as dispassionate a way as possible and my goal is always to entertain and inform. I do give fans the opportunity to express their feelings, unless they are rude or disrespectful and I think I am pretty patient. If you want more than that then you may have to look elsewhere.

                I stick by my opinions about this affair. You are entitled to your’s but look at all the other comments and see how many agree with you.

                1. It is your blog. not mine, you can write whatever you want. but i can only disagree with you, and i normally do 🙂 you always write what the MASS wants to read, but objectively and historically/statistically speaking vettel should always be given full support over webber. for three years he has disintigrated his teammate. he deserves the entire support of the team for what he has done for them in the last three years. webber is occasionally quicker than him (like 2 times in the whole year). If there is an opponent between him and seb than he is entitled to win, otherwise NO.
                  just imagine being a rbr employee, working 12 hours days, sat and sunday wt shifts and losing the championship for 6 points? just because you want to give webber the win? because it is morally correct. LOL. i would be seriously pissed. this would mean that the team i work for does not have their priority right. come 4 races with some epic wins from seb and nobody will remember this episode, and come november we will consacrate seb as a champ once again. 4 in a row. like michael…i say awesome.
                  plus we should be happy, they could have wasted 20 minutes of our life, instead they made it interesting. you always say you want action. well there is was and now you complain. wierd.

                  1. Sorry but you can only argue like this if you have no understanding of the sport you are watching. This is how it is done. Maybe it can change, but right now this is what happens.

      1. Although I do like Schumacher, I personally have less problems with drivers being assholes on the track, and I think I could be called a Schumi fan of sorts. What a lot of people who equate Senna’s on track behaviour to Schumacher’s forget that there was an extra layar to those stories. Although I do think that both their behaviour was born out of a feeling that they had the right to win and everything else just didn’t compute. Senna though was deliberately wronged by Balestre so that might give some extra justification for some of his actions. But then again I believe Schumacher’s records stand for a lot. Personally I think it’s a good thing that a lot of Schumacher’s of track philanthropy has been kept out of the spotlight. It doesn’t help with his image of being a cold hearted winning machine….I just hope Vettel’s reputation isn’t tarnished to much for his sake. I’ve liked Webber more anyways.

          1. That’s not a reply Joe. I actually think he is right. Mark has been the protected one. He has been underperforming for 3 years now, and has gotten away with ignoring team orders, namely in Brazil (where his stubborness almost cost RB and SB the title). Today, he was going to be allowed to win farcically just to appease his iluusions that he has a chance against SB (which he hasn’t; not even squizzing his team mate against the pit wall worked). Mark was going to win purely for political reasons, and Vettel, clearly the superior driver, was having none of that. To me, that was pretty darn siilar to the Senna/Prost situation in Japan. Senna was the superrior driver and he proved it on rack, and they placed him in the dirty side of the track to appease the politically stronger Prost… and Senna was having none of that. So it’s your opinion that this is not the same situation that has to be properly justified, and you haven’t done that in any way. By the way, good thing that Shakespear wasn’t a racing driver!!!

              1. Joe, I don’t agree with Beo Wolf, but if there’s one thing I reckon your blog is about, it’s strong opinions. And they’re needed.

                I’m absolutely pro Webber, that’s a commonly held view here, however you can’t understand why it’s such a serious situation without hearing the other side. Beo Wolf’s comment makes me think hard, just what are the factional positions, what MW may be up against, or feel he is up against. I kinda blanked this story, la la la, can’t hear you, all rather upsetting to me, but in the greasy spoon last night, picked up The Daily Mirror, and reports there are he was thinking to quit the sport. Not your usual outlet to run a DPS.

                Sometimes I reckon, Joe, you should be a team manager, as you let both sides play in the comments, but express strongly what orders should be 🙂

            1. Silly post.

              The pole position in Suzuka had been on the dirty side of the track for years, Senna asked for it to be moved, FIA wouldn’t do it, not for Prost or anyone but just because Balestre – who was a questionnable fellow that’s the least we can say – would have never let anyone tell him what to do…

            2. Farcically!? LOL!
              You do realise it’s standard practice to bring home the cars 1&2 from last pit stop without any changes, the team had genuine concerns about the tires and wanted a perfect 1 – 2 result like most teams would want as well.

              Mark had his engine turned down and could not race Vettel fairly.
              Whilst Vettel clearly did not and took huge risk to overtake Mark.

              Mark got himself in the lead position from the start of the race, good for him.

              How can you not know the standard practice of bringing home the cars 1 – 2 unchanged from the very last pit stop?

    2. Bob the key thing, IMHO, Nico respects Ross… I don’t know if I’ll buy a coffee of Horner. When he is done with F1 he should be a politician…

    3. Nicely put! It surprises me that people have been putting the Red Bull and Merc situations in the same frame. From where I was sitting Nico acted in an honourable and team-orientated manner, while still pleading his case, and Lewis seemed genuinely embarrassed at having made the podium only because team orders kept him there. Both Silver Arrows pilots came out of this with dignity and reputations intact.

    4. Spot on analysis as usual Joe.

      You noted the increased interest in the race because of this controversy – and there is no doubt that ‘normal’ ie non F1 fans have really picked up on this. At my office I was bombarded by questions about Malaysia from people who don’t often take much interest in F1 – is this good or bad?

      Re Vettel’s position – I wonder if he just doesn’t say to RBR ‘I am #1 driver and let’s get that straight right now’. Problem solved from his point of view I guess.

      1. Totally agree. From Bernie’s perspective, this is the best thing that could have happened for the sport. Expecting a medal or sprinkler press release shortly…

    5. There is very little difference between Senna and Schumacher. In fact, the only difference is that one died tragically. If Schumacher had died racing, he would be viewed in the same light as Senna. Who would dare disagree?

          1. And? Is this supposed to mean that Roebuck is some kind of God who knows all the answers? I like Nigel but I don’t always agree with him. He was always pro-Prost and anti-Senna. You probably think he attends all the races as well…

            1. Joe; this IS absolutely 100% (!) correct. I have a respect for NR and have read (and enjoyed) his stuff for years in Autosport and, more recently, in MotorSport. I was an avid reader of his writings during the great Prost/Senna era at McLaren and there was no ambiguity there at all; Nigel was definitely in the Prost camp! I used to achieve a balance by reading Tony Dodgins who, I seem to remember, appreciated Ayrton’s talent.

              1. …..of course, Jenks as well……….how could I ever forget Jenks. He appreciated Senna’s talent greatly; knew a great when he saw one.

            2. You are right Joe. Reading through Roebuk’s pieces makes me think he likes some drivers more than others, although his hints at that matter are very subtle. There are some drivers he adores, like Villeneuve, Prost and Mansell, and there are others whom he loathes, Senna and Schumacher being the most obvious examples. The list is longer, though.

      1. I would disagree as well. Big difference between Senna and Schumacher, and Vettel sadly following in Schumi’s footsteps…

    6. Excuse me, but I can’t stand the comments referring to Vettels germanness as having anything to do with the events. Just because Schu and Vettel both are germans they are compared, but it is just plain discriminating to suggest that because they are german they are cheats. It’s just stupid and useless.

      1. So! It’s all forgotten now, and let’s hear no more about it. So, that’s two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads

            1. My comment was a simple acknowledgement of a topic that was raised that dwarfs F1. While I understand this is not the place for it I am not prepared for a dismissive PC whitewash on the topic. People have a right to not suffer from the convenient amnesia or ignorance you do as you play daily. There’s a generation out there that provided you with that freedom with great sacrifice, appreciate it and say thank you, often. Open a history book or check the McFacts on Wikipedia just because it was not yours or Sebastian’s reality does not mean it did not happen. The world did not start with you. Those violent video games you play, people lived through that NOT THAT LONG AGO.
              Freedom isn’t free, remember it. Jeez, Gosh & Golly.

          1. Nice times we’re living in. It’s always better watching people fighting it out in cars on the track instead of shooting each other like they used to do in the past. We are a blessed generation, we should never forget this.

  13. All Weber fans know that for a long time Webber’s car has not been in perfect working order, we all know the pits can be messed about as well to ensure Vettel is leading. Webber puts up with Marko Helmut’s degrading comments.. which are all untrue, but as Helmut Marko is part of Red Bull, its very embarassing. Why? is this allowed.. This weekend the Malaysian GP, Webber’s car was able to challenge due to it working well, the pits were good too. We know Webber has the talent, and deserves the title every bit as much as Vettel. What the team worry about is the two of them crashing, and having no car, or driver on the podium. So the manipulation happens.. However, is it not time to change things round? and allow Webber some VIctory? Australians boo’d Vettel on the podium in Australia.. and who can blame them.. Vettel is not popular, and never will be, unless he truly earns respect by being EQUAL in the the RB team. I hope Webber is given a fair chance this season. I also hope this is a lesson for all No.1 and No.2 drivers..

    1. I think the point is this time around, RBR *wanted* Mark to win. It’s too early to play the team-order game in so far as favouring one side of the garage and they just wanted to bank points.

      They got the same result regardless. The problem is Vettel fundamentally ignored an order from his race team.

      Even Helmut Marko was visibly speechless and annoyed by what had happened.

  14. Joe, excellent analysis. I think the sub plot with Christian’s authority is very telling. Contrast the ‘respect’ that Ross Brawn could command with Nico and it shows a weakness in the power base between team manager/driver. This will cause inevitable tension. I felt Vettel was I’ll advised to fabricate an ‘excuse’ for it is clear he knew exactly what the situation was.

    I predict Mark will come back stronger and suspect that hs half of the garage will be galvanised by this possibly resulting in the world drivers championship for webber.

    I’m disappointed that Vettel has shown such unsporting behaviour and parallels with Schumacher are now very valid for all the wrong reasons and I suspect he will either harden his line on this or correct his approach. I hope it is the latter.

    I suspect Webber and Rosberg have gained new fans and new momentum through this adversity..most of us love an underdog, but an underdog that has been ‘wronged’ can galvanise a lot of people….I hope so.

    Mercedes should take note…..Ross is a very effective ‘leader’ not just a ‘manager’…..two different things….lose him at your peril….

    1. Indeed – I’ve already read another column piece that states just how different Horner and Brawn are – Horner telling his driver not to be silly, while Brawn saying a clear ‘negative, stay where you are’ – Brawn commanded the respect of his driver, and he got it.

      1. Well said David.

        For me the telling thing was the radio conversation we heard from Ross, as opposed to the radio conversation we heard from Horner.
        Admittedly we heard only a small percentage of both, but Ross seemed very much in control of his pilots, whereas Christian seemed to have no idea what to do next.

        I fear that RBR themselves created the problem though, and it will be very hard to change.
        They have almost encouraged Seb to do as he want’s by treating him with kid gloves at every opportunity.

        Apparently the “Big guy” DM has spoken personally with Mark to ensure his place in the team and equality, so will be interesting to see how it’s all handled next time a situation like this arises ?

        1. The situations are fundamentally different though.

          At the end of the season, as we’ve seen over the past few years, it really could come down to the handful of points Vettel stole from Webber to decide who gets the driver’s title. With respect to Nico, his chances of a drivers’ championship challenge are slim. And Nico knows this.

          Nico stood only to gaina few points, a podium and a little trophy. Vettel’s move wasn’t about notching up another race win, it was about 7 more points ahead of Alonso and the rest.

          1. A “little trophy”?!

            It’s very important to note that, aside from a few (or small handful of) drivers, most are not in a position to be so cavalier about podiums, trophies, and a “few points.”

            Nico can count on one hand how many podium finishes he has had in his career. And, with usually between 1 and 4 teams faster than Merc (according to recent history), plus a very fast team mate to contend with, Nico’s looking at a “projected” average finish of between 3-10th in any given race – and that’s if all goes well!

            What he did was very much a sacrifice in his own terms; history doesn’t really note how many 4th places you got in your F1 career, and odds are that in 15 years Nico’s career will be discussed in terms of “x podiums including y wins!” rather than “x championships, y wins, and a bunch of other podiums and stuff that didn’t really matter to him.”

            The only thing I’ll add is that it’s in fact the opposite case, if anything, for Lewis. That podium won’t mean much to him, neither will the trophy (his trophy case is getting pretty full already, and there are a couple more glamorous ones there than the 3rd place Malaysian GP 2013).

            Sorry, didn’t mean to jump all over you for the comment, but I think it’s crucial that we (the F1 fan base) understand and remember that these drivers are, for the most part, racing for top 10 finishes; a podium in F1 is pure gold.

            1. A very valid point well made, but I hold my basic position – that there was much, much more at stake for Vettel than Rosberg. The former can count his WDC wins on one hand too.

  15. What a lot of people are ignoring with all this is that Vettel himself has benefitted from the policy of the team bringing cars home in order after the last round of stops, seen lots of naive comments about this elsewhere.

    Lets be honest, if Webber had pulled this move on Vettel, Seb would be absolutely fuming.

    1. And people would be defending Webber and criticizing Seb for not being willing to race, not being able to win without the team holding Webber back, etc.

      1. No, I doubt they would. This all happened because a general order was issued to reduce the power output of the engines and bring the race home. One driver obeyed, the other didn’t. As a result, the former couldn’t respond and challenge the latter.

        If both cars were operating in peak efficiency, regardless of tyre strategy, Mark would have likely put up a fight. As it stood, Vettel just ran off because he ignored the call to save his engine.

        Of course, the egg will be on his face if that engine fails at a later GP.

  16. The different dynamic between Red Bull and Mercedes struck me in particular. I admit I am using this analogy from (what is for me) an annoying website in that they copy/paste any old news rubbish they find yet have some really good opinion pieces. Anyway…

    The school analogy is that Mercedes had the headmaster on the radio asserting his authority which, inspite of some whining, the unruly pupil eventually obeyed. The Red Bull school is actually run by the art teacher with a light touch and here was the result. Not forgetting the “sinister” chairman of the governers in the background who is pulling the art teacher’s strings.

    So what did we learn? That Christian Horner has no authority and that Sebastian feels that his protector Dr Helmut will cover him anyway. Sorry Joe, I am not convinced of Dr Marko’s annoyance – I suspect this may be more a strategic annoyance to appear to be doing the right thing in the media. Sebastian got away with it. If Red Bull has balls, then Sebastian will sit out the next race and the reserve driver can have a go.

    1. Dr. Marko was visibly irritated by all this in the first interview on Sky – he didn’t have the words ready as usual. So Vettel’s behaviour has also taken him by surprise – and Dr.Marko is not one who like authority to be disrespected. Then there is Dietrich Mateschitz who will not like this at all.

      1. No, he just did not have adequate time to develop sufficient excuses for his defiant boy Sebastian.

  17. My son has been proved right. He always said that Vettel was Schumacher junior, and this despicable behaviour seals it for me. Up until then I had given him the benefit of the doubt. Winning in the right way is more important than winning at all costs

  18. “The other thing Malaysia has done is something positive. It has given the F1 world a story to tell with good guys and bad guys. It will produce large amounts of copy and loads of sound bites”

    Certainly a great may to get way more people talking about F1 than usual in Aus

    One of the most viewed news items for the day

  19. Mark,time to have a word with Bernie.Let Hamilton have your seat at Red bull and switch to Mercedes.At least team orders are followed there.You`re faster than Britney anyway.

  20. As if it wasn’t enough to be v. disappointed in Vettel’s on track behavior, he had to make it even worse by blatantly lying about how his allegiance to “the truth” required him to say that he “didn’t know” he was supposed to hold station. While nobody was buying it, I was a bit surprised to not hear anyone plainly say that Vettel not only ignored his team but also stabbed his teammate in the back.

    I was disappointed in Horner’s comments as well. While he did utter one sentence in which he placed responsibility on Vettel, on multiple occasions he described the problem as “the drivers” taking things into “their” own hands, relying on pronouns such as “they”, and so on. He also seemed to be vying with Damon Hill to see who could most rely on equivocal BS about how drivers can’t be expected to not do things like this.

    One place I did see Weber taking things into his own hands is when he disciplined himself to not drive Vettel off the side of the track when he clearly had the chance. His car was distinctly less wide than it often has been when dicing with non-teammates.

    In contrast, Lewis and Nico presented themselves very well in the bits I saw. Lewis’ rather abashed podium comment about Nico being the one who deserved to there was exactly the right thing to do, and then Nico took a post-race stroll and said all the right things without being disingenuous about his frustration and disappointment. Kudos to both of them (although Lewis could have waved Nico by had he really wanted to).

    ‘Be interesting to see who returns a big favor first: Lewis or Vettel.

    p.s. Do we know if the 2 Mercedes started with the same amount of fuel?

    p.p.s. Not sure if was Herbert or Brundle, but one of them said during the race that Lewis likely had some kind of #1 guarantee in his Mercedes contract… this on the basis that he held the cards in the negotiations. Does this line of thinking have any credence, or was that just an ex-driver spinning a web?

    1. From a transcript I’ve seen on another news site, Lewis asked if he should let Nico by. Not sure how much truth there is in that though.

      What Malaysia has shown us is how teams can make their drivers work together, and how teams can’t. I feel sorry for Webber. But have to wonder where he can go after Red Bull.

    2. Hi RShack, It was Brundle that said that, and he alluded to it again on his blog on the SkySports Website. He is assuming though, not reporting fact, and no one will ever know.

    3. Regardless of which driver is faster, Lewis is more marketable than Nico on a global stage. Therefore, that is what matters and hence why if I were a team principal, I would agree to making Lewis the number 1 driver. Sponsors are not going to rush in to sign up to a Nico led team. Sponsors pay the bills. I think it will be interesting to see what happens to the McLaren prime sponsorship without Hamilton as the drawcard. That might give some insight into the additional value the Hamilton brand has/or has not.

      1. If Nico starts winning things he’ll become marketable.

        From an anglo-centric point of view, Lewis is obviously Mr Marketing, but bear in mind that Nico speaks 5 languages fluently, French TV love interviewing drivers like him (Alonso for instance). Outside the UK, the margin isn’t as wide as you might think.

      2. Re: the idea of Lewis being more marketable on the global stage…

        I wonder about that. IMO, Mercedes is in the rare position of having two young-enough drivers, both of whom have golden-boy appeal. Both are good looking, both are articulate, both have charm. And in the recent potentially troublesome instance, both handled themselves very well.

        And, oh, by the way, both are fast.

        I realize Nico is not judged to be in the top tier of ability in the way Lewis is. While others know more about this than do I, for my money the jury is still out about Nico’s ceiling. He routinely outperformed the retread version of Michael in a less-than-top-tier car. What significance does that have? We don’t really know, do we? In the one race last year when Mercedes had their car right, Nico drove away from everybody. In KL this week, Nico seemingly did a better job of managing things than did Lewis, to the point where he had the fuel and tires to chase the RB’s when Lewis did not. The difference was blatant enough that Lewis volunteered this view without being pressed to do so.

        Note that I am not saying Nico is the equal of Lewis. However, I am saying we still have much to learn about how capable Nico is, and that Lewis now provides Nico with another in-house yardstick. I expect this season will make us all better informed about Nico’s ability.

        Now, I fully realize that juggling 2 drivers, both of whom have the speed, looks, charm, etc. to be marketing stars is a tricky business. As problems go, it seems like a good problem to have.

          1. I completely agree.

            As I said, this season will tell us a great deal about Nico’s talent, as Nico now has Lewis instead of Michael as his in-house measuring stick.

            1. Don’t forget that Nico has had a number of years to settle into the team and forge relationships with engineers etc. I would give Lewis until at least mid-season before making any further judgement.

          2. Joe, is it fair to say that you don’t think much of Nico?

            Not trying to put words in your mouth… just asking… my memory might be faulty (and sometimes definitely is) but I don’t recall you saying much good about him.

            1. I have never felt able to judge him properly because he had the team mates he had. This year we will see, but not after two races.

  21. Well, Joe exactly what I was thinking. I think that karma will bite Seb in the behind and it’s time for the upcomimg young bloods to step up. We need fresh blood with drivers that are hungry to win and are not controlled by tryants.
    Seb now does control Redbull.

  22. Well I for one will disagree with about everything you said. No one wins championships by being subserviant. I’m dissapointed in Seb in that he appoligised afterwards instead of just comming right out and admitting that he wanted the win. Schumacher would have never appologised. Neither would Senna. I doubt Rosberg will ever win one. Massa won’t and Barrichello didn’t.

    Two points to remember before you jump on the Webber bandwagon: The 2011 British Grand Prix when Webber was told to hold station and he didn’t, trying hard to pass Vettel. He even was quoted after the race that you should never give up and keep pushing. Somewhat hypocritical now isn’t it? The only difference between then and now is that he wasn’t successful while Vettel was.

    Number two: Brazil last year when Webber, out of the championship, almost took his teamate off, knowing he was fighting for the championship. Vettel lost a lot of places due to that manuever and it almost cost him the title. Did you wax outraged on either of those two occassions Joe?

    All of this teamwork stuff is nonsense anyways. Maybe F1 should just have one car teams and that will solve the whole issue. People want to see racers race, not hold station.

    1. Steve, do you know if there was any team orders in both Silverstone and Brazil? If Vettel gets away with what he has done then RedBull is doomed… There are rumblings from within the team, not everyone likes Vettel.

        1. One might consider Vettel a sportsman too. At least he put the sport over politics by ignoring a political call and actually kept on racing. What sense does it actually make to protect one driver over the other in the second race of the season? I could understand the use of team orders in the situation if only one driver is in the title hunt and his teammate already dropped out of the title fight, but come on, in the second of 19 races, this is ridiculous. Even Ferrari seemed to use team orders later in the season. What sense does it make to watch a race that actually is manipulated, when after 42 of 56 laps the first 4 running cars are ordered to hold station and stop racing each other, isn’t that waste of time? One might actually switch off the TV after the final stops.

          1. I don’t believe this was a political call. The team knew the fuel and tyres were marginal so they were actually manging the cars. Its not uncommon for this call to be made during the final stint of a race. Its nothing to do with politics.

    2. “Jump on the Webber bandwagon?” The man is by far the most honorable of the front runners and arguably the nicest of the lot.

      Do you remember when Vettel ran into the back of Webber’s (2010?)car and then ran off spinning his finger around his ear blaming Webber for not jumping out of his way? This along with his no finish (in Japan,Korea?) perhaps costed Webber the championship that year.

      I’ll tell you this from one who is half German; they (the Germans) think they are always right and if you disagree you’re an idiot.

      I’m so glad that people are finally seeing the little prince for who he is, a self indulgent, pretentious, yet certainly talented, little jerk driving the best car.
      He’ll never receive the adoration of the masses.

      I am firmly on Webber’s bandwagon and will remain so. I only hope that he will continue driving for some team this year and next.

      1. Sorry but Webber as honourable really is stretching it. Nico was honourable yesterday but was Webber at Silverstone in 2011? Or how about Webber at Korea in 2010 when he forgot to brake and tried to take out one of his rivals? Ask Nico.

        1. Now that’s a bizarre comment – Webber’s accident in Korea 2010 was certainly his mistake, but having made it there was nothing he could do to avoid hitting Rosberg, who was some distance behind him when the accident started. In what way is that dishonourable?

          1. You say there was nothing webber could have done. If you go to YouTube and look again at his crash maybe you should ask could he have braked as he reversed across the track onto incoming cars? As I said ask nico!

            Btw I like webber and think he has been hard done by, but he really is no angel!

            1. Who said he was an angel? I’ve fumed as he nerfed other drivers off the road a few times earlier in his career. Although these days he mostly seems to be hard but fair.

              Seriously though – do you really think that after half spinning and hitting a wall his immediate reaction was – aha, the perfect chance to take out that guy who’s no threat at all to me in the title race, while eliminating any slim hope I have of scoring points. I’ll just steer my car backwards into him and hope the impact doesn’t kill either of us…

              Or is it more likely that it’s quite hard to control a damaged car rebounding across the track in the wet? Like I said, entirely Webber’s mistake, but it’s perverse to impute any intent to “take out one of his rivals”.

      2. In an odd way the crash at Turkey ultimately helped Webber’s WDC hopes.
        Instead of having a points swing of +7 to Webber if he won with Vettel second, the points swing was +15 with Webber third and Vettel retiring.

    3. ‘Schumacher would never have apologised’ – have you ever seen footage of Michael on the podium at the 2002 Austrian GP?

  23. Excellent and incisive post as ever, Joe.

    I imagine Mark will be ruing passing up the Ferrari contract offer last year. If only Massa wasn’t driving well I could see them trying to get a switch organised. Still, hopefully it means that for 2014 he’ll have the choice of a seat at either Ferrari or Lotus …

  24. Bang bang bang. Hit the nail tight on the head Joe.100% right. You have a gift that enables you to articulate what others feel but cannot express.

  25. I often feel sorry for Seb when I see the way the other drivers shun him in the post-race/pre-podium room – probably because he has always been deemed to have the superior car and there was a fair bit of jealousy. However yesterday it was quite the opposite. The tension in that room was amazing and not once did I feel sorry for him.

    A real lack of class shown, and I’m sure he will have lost a lot of fans in the process, which is a shame because he is obviously a great driver who didn’t need to do that.

    Well, at the very least we’ll find out if those extra seven points make a difference at the end of the season.

  26. i don’t always agree with your sentiments joe but this time you have echoed my very same thoughts.
    it is obvious that horner has lost/or never really did have control. he admitted this by saying that if he had ordered vettel to give the place back that vettel would’ve ignored him, ergo vettel is calling the shots.

    the fact is vettel has the trophy and the points and webber has again been humiliated by his team. i would love to see vettel sanctioned for one race, which he deserves. by letting vettel get away with this just further erodes any positive team spirit. failure to do this will just reinforce horners public persona as being weak.

    1. Yes, I see the point about Horner not wanting to lose face any more…. and too his saying ‘don’t be silly….’ (My, how strongly worded is that? Quite a contrast with Ross Brawn’s plain English order and the respect he has.) But ultimately I think actions and not words tell the priorities and Horner had plenty of time to tell Seb to give the place back if in fact that’s what he most wanted. Would Horner have spoken/acted differently had Mark been the one who did that move…

  27. I thought the “protected” comment was aimed at Dr Marko, myself. The post-race interview between Horner and the Sky commentators (specifically, Johnny Herbert) seemed to cement this.

    What do you make of Watson’s call for Red Bull to suspend him? I can’t see them doing it, but I did like the story about the other team principal pitting the driver to make the point.

    By contrast, my god – who was that man impersonating Lewis, or has he matured a decade since joining Mercedes? Gracious, humble… my respect for him grew tenfold.

  28. Ron Dennis once said of Alonso “Competitive animals know no limits”. While I understand furore that Seb did not play ball with the team this is why I love the sport! I know these days the drivers have a PR girl next to them when they speak on camera and so forth, they dont say much, but in the heat of battle we see the true selves of the drivers, and see their will to win. This is why F1 is so captivating because of the real human stories you see play out, more so than in any other sports. This is probably great for the sport as it just adds some more spice which is already proving to be a great year of F1. We are really in a golden age of F1.

    1. I agree, and let’s not forget that Webber himself at Silverstone 2011 and Brazil 2012 chose to ignore team orders (by his own admission) and no one is claiming his character will forever be tarnished. SV was most likely calculating that those extra 7 points may make the difference deciding the WDC at the end of the season.

      Webber probably eased off when he thought that his teammate would not be attacking him and in doing so lessened his ability to defend against Vettel, and that is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth. At the end of the day this was just Vettel’s Tit to Webber’s Tat.

        1. “The team radioed me about four times, asking that I maintain the gap to Seb.

          “But I wasn’t happy with that because you should never give up in F1, so I continued to push. If Fernando had retired on the last lap, we would have been battling for the lead.

          “The team was worried about Seb and me crashing because it wanted the points for the constructors’ championship. I understand that, but I wanted points for the championship too and we proved that we can race without making contact.”
          (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/07/11/2011-british-grand-prix-red-bull/)

          This are Webber’s own words after the British GP 2011, the only difference in this situation is that SV actually pulled off the pass. I’m not trying to say that SV acted honorably, but I do think that it would have been more accurate for you to compare Vettel’s actions at Malaysia with those of Webber in the past rather that Schumacher’s transgressions that while reprehensible, are very different in nature from the events that happened last sunday.

          I dont likek the way SV passed MW but then again I don’t like teams telling their driver’s not to race this early on in the season and it seems like Webber agreed as well when it suited him.

          1. You hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I guess it all comes down to which driver you like in condoning or condemning actions like these. And naturally it helps that everybody can dislike a German again.

      1. Webber eased off at his teams request. He lowered his engine power output in accordance with the team’s plan should they have a 1-2.

        Vettel didn’t.

  29. So as well as occasional petulant, childish outbursts you can add a sense of unbounded entitlement to Vettel’s flaws. And while we’re at it, a dose of self-delusion – if he thinks anyone even vaguely believed any of that “it was a mistake”, “I didn’t do it on purpose”, “I didn’t understand the team’s orders” utter crap that he thought constituted an explanation or an apology, he’s out of his mind. What a waste of air all of that was.

    Despite three consecutive World Driver’s titles many are reluctant to consider Vettel a ‘great’ champion. His actions in Malaysia have only added to the reasons why he is not and possibly sealed the decision forever. Can you imagine Jim Clarke behaving like Vettel did? No – that’s why he will forever be revered and Vettel will not.

    1. Agreed. If Vettel truly “didn’t understand” and is so unaware of his envronment, then he’s a danger to everyone on the track and the FIA should park him, a la Yuji Ide.

    2. Good point, had me thinking of the likes of Moss, Villeneuve, etc. What men and sportsmen they were. Doubt that a Moss would trade places with the stat chasers at the end of the day/end of the life.

  30. I’ve been looking forward to your take on the incident and the possible repercussions Joe. It’s unfortunate there is such a long break between now and the next race. The internet will no doubt be full of stories or Webber threatening to walk away from the sport or Vettel being benched for a race and such like. I think you captured the reality quite well, Webber was already calming down during the press conferences. Vettel, from a PR and team relationships perspective has come off very badly from this situation.

    Whilst the sensationalist side of me would like to see big things come out of the affair I image most of the issues will be smoothed out before China.

    I guess a marketing consideration for the Red Bull machine is if the behaviours of the current driver line up sit well the with way in which Red Bull want to position themselves. Which in 2010 was not a difficult consideration to resolve, the team only had to think of their own brand. Now the consideration is extended to its commercial partners. Will Infinitti, be happy with how the team is being perceived post Malaysia? If this is the beginning of relations between Vettel and Red Bull racing beginning to sour, what next? Where would Vettel go? And what would Red Bull do?

    Is Red Bull’s success, and Vettel’s apparent attitude alongside his success sitting well with the market Red Bull are targeting? Is now the time to consider a more whole sale change?

  31. I must commend you on such a brilliant article. Mark was robbed, but in saying that team orders were blatantly used which is against the rules. Maybe if Mark didnt turn the engine down and the team let them race it might have been a different story.

    If it was my team, maybe Vettel’s car might miraculously have a gearbox problem which would require a replacement at the next Grand Prix resulting in a rear of grid start, However it is the teams championship that needs to be considered.

    Vettel has to redeem himself one way or another, I guess only time will tell if he has a functioning moral compass.

    1. I’m going to assume that if you had a team you would take a little time to learn the rules and sanctions yourself?

    2. Matt, I’m sure I won’t be the only one to remind you, but team orders are not against the rules.

  32. As much as this may seem to be about Vettel & Webber, to me it is more about Horner & Marco.

    Horner effectively has had his knees taken out by Vettel and with previous incidents and the public belief that he really doesn’t call the shots at RBR his credibility is vastly diminished.

    The only thing that could restore his authority would be a firm consequence for Vettel ignoring his boss, but that won’t happen, Marco will make sure of that.

    Perhaps it shouldn’t only be Webber taking the next few weeks to consider his future.

    1. You bring up an interesting issue, Mael, i.e., the relative power of the sponsor versus that of the team manager. One would think that money always trumps operational expertise and ethics, and Red Bull seems to be a classic example.

      I’ve been really surprised at how long Webber has stayed with the team. Yes, they have the best car. And, yes, they give him — theoretically — the best chance to win. But the reality has been machinations within the team to assure that Vettel wins, one way or another.

      Time for Mark to find a better team.

      1. Red Bull don’t ‘sponsor’ the team they *own* the team.
        The decision whether to punish Vettel in some way or not will be made rests with Marko in conjunction with Dieter Mateschitz – Horner will just do as he’s told – and depends only on whether it is felt that the the RB brand would be hurt more by imposing a punishment or letting it go

  33. Shame that the major headline from KL was someone disobeying team orders and not a race long battle between a handful of closely matched cars and drivers, battling for position, the lead swapping every few laps for the whole race.

    Mark should get out of there and go to a team where he will be appreciated and respected. It’s clear that red bull do not respect him. If they did, they would have asked Seb to give the place back.

  34. so no one an argue that when the team told him to hold station he should have done exactly that but whats done is done. the only way i see his going now is that next time there is the opportunity to give mark the win then he should . and as for mark ever backing him up whether it means letting vettel past or holding a charging nando up i just dont see mark cooperating and hy should he. drivers have died in the past due to team mate rivalry and with bad feelings in the mix it could go belly up real quick. whatever happens we all cant wait to fnd out as long as no one gets hurt it,ll be gripping . that is of course unlss rbr take vettels side and its all forgotten ………..

  35. Vettel apologizing comes off like Pee-Wee’s apology in Nice Dreams.

    😆

    No thoughts on the Nico – Lewis orders?
    After hearing that Bernie maneuvered Lewis into the Mercedes gig, and then the order for Nico to hold his position, I fear Nico’s been relegated to the position of “Mark Webber” in the Mercedes team…

  36. Great post as always Joe. As an Aussie, but more so as a long time F1 fan, I feel yesterday’s race was a bad day for the sport.

  37. A nice post Joe, it really shows you had a bit of time to let things boil up, settle and clear in your mind.

    Personally I do feel its good for driver to challenge team orders, in that sense it was good for Vettel to ignore them (as has Webber in the past). On the other hand there’s a good argument that Rosberg challenging his team boss to recall them is the more sporting and respectful way to challenge such orders. I do hope it also helps teams think twice about using them when they have trouble getting their drivers to feel ok with it (and leave them for when they really feel its inevitable – use TO sparingly that is).

    I am glad you mentioned Marko’s reaction because while Horner did say that what Vettel did was wrong, he has accepted him ignoring orders to slow down before when Vettel went on to set a fastest lap. I guess Vettel thought he was just pushing that a bit further.
    But it was clear from the images of Marko that he was really upset by the whole (even if he managed to gave it a spin in saying Mercedes showed they have a no. 2 driver), and I think it could really mean a difference in the relationship between Marko / Red Bull and Sebastian, as I do not get the impression Marko likes a team out of control.

  38. Well said.
    A bit more could be made of the facts Mark was in “cruise mode” and the only reason Seb was close enough to challenge was that he had been given the undercut (nominally to cover Hamilton). I know who Red Bull would have pitted first at the last pit stop if it was the other way around.

    We’ll never know but Mark getting the preferred strategy (due to being in front) and being told it was “race on” I think had him pretty well covered. When Seb had his first bleat about Mark being “too slow”, Webber immediately pulled another second on him.

    1. THIS!

      It’s been frustrating reading so many articles on this topic which have not pointed this out. And then you get people replying “why should the team let Webber win if Vettel was faster!?”

      Had Webber received first stop, as he was entitled to, then he would probably be about 7-9 seconds down the road considering the gap he had and the undercut on Seb that he would have received. Had this happened though, Seb would probably have lost second place to Hamilton on the track.

      This is why there’s no justice in this one and why Seb is an absolute sly dog of the highest order. He’s heard the call from the team, knew Webber had turned down his engine and then kept quiet and gone to overtake a sitting duck.

      Well, Seb…. karma will find you my friend. And no, this doesn’t make you a fierce racing driver… catching up to and overtaking Hamilton would do that. This just makes you a dishonest cheat.

      PS: Love your work Joe!!!

  39. Drivers ARE supposed to go for the win, but they lose ALL of their credibility/honor when they do it the way SV did. MW kept his head, and his reputation. Just my two cents.

  40. It is very entertaining… but I wonder if it has bigger implications if the FIA decided to look at past team orders? Webber hinted in an interview on BBC that team orders were applied back when they were illegal. If that’s the case then perhaps SV’s 2010 championship might be questionable?

    I wonder if they keep transcripts of Radio conversations from previous seasons. They might start looking for ‘Multi-56’ – in 2010 they were cars 5 and 6. Christian Horner mentioned on RTL (it’s live – and free!) that in Brazil last year the instruction was Multi-12… they’re now cars 1 & 2.

      1. Weren’t McLaren disqualified from a championship – retrospectively – in 2007? It’s why I love F1, it so regularly manages to contradict itself.

  41. Vettel was very proud of himself when he crossed the line, his “victory weave” showed how pleased he was. It was only when he got a very frosty reception over the radio that he suddenly realised how stupid he had been that he started to back track and apologise. You are right, he has destroyed his reputation for ever. It is similar to Schumacher parking at Rascasse.

    Maybe this will release Webber and he will fight for himself. As you say, he has been a good team player, despite what happened in Brazil. Two years ago at Silverstone he held station behind Vettel despite being faster. I think that the team will have to punish Vettel or else they will lose all authority. Frank Williams has always said that the drivers are not bigger than the team and has shown it on numerous occasions, maybe Christian Horner ought to be on the phone to Frank to find out how to grow some balls.

  42. If Vettel does not get penalised with something like sitting out a race then if I were Mark I would have no other option but to resign. How can Mark continue to race with Vettel who is running the show, absurd?

    I always hear how decent and honourable the RB owner Maschnitzel is (even Mark says so!). If he has any moral compass, he deals with this swiftly and promptly, but I doubt it.

    1. Are you mad? They are not children to be sat in the naughty corner. It is like saying that we will take the hour-hand off the clock to teach it a lesson. You can’t bench the peddler to show you mean business. There are other means to reprimand an employee without taking them off the production line, if a reprimand is even forthcoming. .

    2. Have there been any published comments yet by Dietrich Mateschitz? This is his company after all. What are his thoughts on the sporting issues involved?

  43. Looking at it practically, what choices does Mark have?
    Keep his head down and hope to win as many races as possible?
    If he wants to continue racing at the front of the field, leaving RB not an option, as all other competitive cars have a team leader, and age not on his side(surely rather come 2nd to Seb and pick up the odd win, and maybe have an outside championship chance, than be with a team where a great result would be 3rd or 4th in a race if very lucky?)
    Realistically, although a great driver, not in the top league, Seb, Fernando, Lewis etc., and only got a few years left at most, while Seb has at least 10 years if he wants to continue, and RB would be mad to let him go.

  44. Nice summary, thanks Joe.

    For what it’s worth I think Vettel thought he was taking a ‘calculated risk’ – but he calculated wrong. The fight immediately on the exit of Webber’s final pit stop was fair enough, but once it was won (either way) then that should have been it. The only reason he had the opportunity to try was because Webber was expecting him not to (having received the team orders).
    Webber said “Remember this!” to Horner & the team after the race – he will be looking for payback. In some ways this could be a real epiphany for Webber – I have a sneaking suspicion he might do rather well this year!

    1. I thought it was rather Nico Rosberg that said “Don’t forget this” in a subdued voice before cutting off the engine at parc ferme after the race but I might be remembering wrong.

  45. Red Bull is beginning to emulate Ferrari of the Schumacher era, win at all costs is normal and we expect the rules to be bent and pushed and twisted. BUT we expect fair play on the track, we do not like to see Vettel being childish. Still at least he has admitted he did wrong, Schumacher was always reticent to admit he was at fault.
    I have to say that I for one will not be disappointed if Webber accidentally shunts Vettel into the gravel in the future, but I fear that Webber will not be there long enough for us to see, since he apparently spent the last part of the race considering his future.
    BTW I thought Massa did very well.

  46. Without wishing to be an apologist for Vettel I wonder if there was an element of “Red Mist” in his actions. While that is not the sort of behaviour one would expect of a driver at this level Vettel is still quite young and he did seem quite shocked in the post race interviews (but that may have been because of the team’s reaction.) Of course this is not the first time this has happened in F1 and it has had a corrosive effect on the team when it has. Time will tell but it is going to be a very interesting season…

    1. Vettel could always complain that before the race someone slipped him too much of that horrible name sake fizzy drink which sent him into a caffeinated rage behind the wheel thus causing him to ‘misunderstand’ the situtation.

  47. I’m very pleased about this latest issue. F1, whilst producing great racing recently, has been lacking in the ‘soap opera’ dept for a too long.
    I would like more (safe) controversies, scandals wife-poaching and all the rest.

    Whilst I like Webber and would prefer him to get the tittle than many drivers he still gets paid more in a year than I will in a lifetime and can therefore suck it up and get on with it.

    More of this please 🙂

  48. I fear very little will happen with vettel. It will generate the inches in press around the world but will be forgotten by the next race or certainly by Spain in May. I cannot see them putting someone else in the car for a race as John Watson is saying, so what else can they do?? For me it has changed my opinion of him as a person. I think I will be respecting those who have proved they are worth respecting, vettel is not on that list.

    1. It will most certainly NOT be forgotten anytime soon — people are still bringing up Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2011, Brazil 2012. F1 is all about its history. Dietrich Mateschitz might very well see more value for his brand by sitting Vettel at China.

  49. Perhaps Vettel is going to Ferrari next year and doesn’t care about Red Bull anymore? I think it was a real “I’ll do what I want” piece of driving – with Schumacher his team mate already knew he would have to get out of the way, Webber perhaps hoped things would be different…

  50. I think that the person who is most at risk of leaving the team is Horner. The team owner(s) will surely not permit Vettel to be benched for a race and so lose a potential 25 points towards the Constructors championship; whoever would replace Vettel for China could not have as high a chance of winning as he would.

    I feel that Webber will continue to drive “for” the team but any chance of imposing team orders on him later in the season have surely gone. Horner, as team manager, has the responsibility of imposing discipline on the drivers – who are employees of the company and notionally report to him as their “line manager”. If he will not – or even worse – is not allowed to, impose a sensible sanction on his subordinates, then as a manager in any other industry his position would be untenable. Hence, I think if anyboby is to leave it will be Horner.

  51. Why do all the recent multiple world champions behave so? To my mind the last honourable driver with more than one championship is Mika Hakkinen.

    I suppose I’m being naive, but I hate the win at all cost attitudes of Schumacher, Alonso and now Vettel.

    1. Don’t you suspect, then, that the attitude and the World Championships go hand in hand? Can you have one without the other?

  52. I agree with everything you wrote but one line – “There are some who argue that a racing driver’s job is to win and that there should not be team orders. I think that is naïve”. The n1 status within the team shouldn’t be given on previous season basis, but only on current results. So I can’t see the logic of team orders after only one race.
    In Red Bull Vettel is the “chosen one” but yesterday Webber spolied the team tactic (to make Seb overtake while Mark was in the pitlane) entering the pits earlier than expected for the second stop. Team orders at this stage of the season means the nr 1 driver can never be tested properly by his team mate and so we do not know real values.
    Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and many more are all stains on Michael Schumacher’s cv. But Ferrari’s team policy and the relative team orders were the situations that really downgraded his achievements. Never properly tested by a team mate in his whole career. Never accepted a real fight, never accepted a high profile driver in his team. A huge part of Senna’s greatness came with the way he defeated his team mate Alain Prost, someone who proved to be faster in his career than teammates like Nigel Mansell, Jean Alesi, Rene Arnoux, Damon Hill, Niki Lauda… We can’t accept to be deprived of all that after only two races. Mercedes with Hamilton and Rosberg did just the same – I think Hamilton is quicker 9 out of 10 times, but yesterday wasn’t so why not allowing Rosberg to pass him? Nothing to do with being naive, it’s just that realism, pragmatism and politics are F1’s main enemies.

      1. Yes, but under the (then) championship rules Senna scored more points that counted in 88. Hence his winning the title and all.

        I’m a Prost fan myself, but I never understand why anyone thinks that Prost scoring more points overall that year means anything. Had the rules been different, perhaps Senna would have gone easier on the car in some races and not retired…

  53. Being a fan of F1 and have been following Webber’s career, very rotten luck indeed for @aussiegrit. It’s very easy to knock Vettel at the moment. But we should give him the benefit of the doubt. After all, he’s still a teenager. Horner, in my opinion, should be ashamed of how he handled the situation on track. Newey chastised Vettel immediately. We had no idea what Horner did.

    1. He’s may act like a teenager, but he’s 25 years old now, and the fact that he indeed does act like a teenager is a scary thought at 190-200 mph.

  54. Atleast it makes the race a bit more exciting after seeing another redbull procession when it dried up. It would of been better with a couple more rain showers as usual.

  55. I agree with your “bring him in” comment wholeheartedly. The best thing Vettel can do now is to gift Webber those points back in future rounds. Don’t talk about it, just do it. Seb is at a crossroads of where his character is headed. He will be remembered as a great driver, only he can determine how he will be regarded as a person. We all make mistakes, it’s when we make no effort to correct them, aye there’s the rub, Willy.

    1. How do you think being ‘gifted’ with a win from Vettel would sit with Mark? I suspect he would rather eat dirt.

  56. Did anyone get the impression Sebs apology was scripted before the overtaking manoeuvre? You could almost hear Doctor Markos words!
    The best he can do now is give a win to Mark in a future race.

    1. Having said that, a racing driver is paid to race, and that’s just what he was doing…

      He would have been in for a major bollocking if he had taken Mark and himself off with the overtaking manoeuvre.

        1. Agreed, and the team in this instance is heavily influenced by Dr Marko;
          who of course is upset by what happened…

          Seb had a considerable lead when he crossed the finish line and not all racing drivers are like Alain Prost, who could win a race at the slowest possible speed.

          It’s understandable a team ordering drivers to hold position with only a few laps remaining but there was too many laps left to run on this race, which is not fair on the fans and spectators, not until Seb challenged that is.

          It warmed the cockles of my heart to see Lewis stopping at McLaren for a pit stop and just goes to show the umbilical cord is still attached…Bless!

        2. Joe,

          So how does that justify what Webber did in Silverstone’11 and Brazil’12?
          Even, for that matter, when he went on radio post race after Silverstone’10 with his “Not bad for #2 driver” comment?

          Is this what a racing driver paid by team supposed to do?

          I’m not justifying Vettel’s disobeying pit wall instructions here. I understand that lots of prize money is at stake and taking out team-mate means huge losses to teams and the hard-working men and women of the team.

          However, in examples, I have listed Webber has been guilty of non compliance as well. But even in those instances, the English-speaking media, criticized Vettel and lapped Webber’s view “you should never give up in F1”

          I see a pattern emerging here, of making villains out of non-english speaking F1 drivers, Schumacher, Alonso. and now Vettel, while defending everything that the English-speaking drivers do and justifying anything that favors English drivers.

          I didn’t hear a peep out of media when Lewis bawled in Monaco’07 about having #2 on his car, or when Barrichello was angry on Brawn cheating him out of race win in 09. The logic of Englsh media was “Brawn team should focus on the younger driver and build the team around Jenson” and as such it’s right to give Jenson better strategy. The Button-Rubens logic was conveniently forgotten, in 2010 when Webber was in the title hunt, the English media suddenly was advising RedBull racing to support Webber, since the driver of Vettel’s talent has age on his side, and he can always win titles in the future, so he should back Webber’s bid for the title.

          While F1 is very much centered around UK ( majority of teams, factories and personnel based out of UK), the meddling of Fleet street by making villains out of Non-English drivers should stop.

          1. I don’t believe it is wise to compare incidents of which we do not have sufficient info. I did not hear SV complaining about MW. Did you?

            As for the rest of the diatribe, if you don’t like the British media, don’t read it.

            1. Joe, I have to ask you. Do you believe that Webber has a chance this year?

              Because it appears to me as though the bit is truly between the teeth now…

              I have never understood why people write Webber off so nonchalantly – as if to say he has had equal opportunity within the team, which he clearly has not.

              I really hope this is his year. The gloves are well and truly off now and the team cannot expect Webber to listen from this point on if a victory is within his grasp and Vettel is in front or behind him.

        3. You are right, a racing driver is paid to do what the team wants, but a triple world champion is paid to win championships. Vettel is not a pay driver. Half the grid will provide him a signed blank contract.

  57. “Didier” Vettel anyone ?
    The vunderkinder has shown his true colours.
    An apology – especially one containing the blatant untruth that he didn’t do it deliberately – is nothing compared to being recorded as the victor, the points, the prizemoney, and the trophy. Even if the team had called him in, he probably would have ignored them !
    Where does this put the team, and Webber in future ? Ignore team orders and apologise afterwards ? Not trust team orders and thrash the car in the closing stages, possibly opening opportunities for Mercedes et al with tyre degredation.
    This has major ramifications for the team, and will not be settled by a “Sebastian has apologised and now we should move on” approach.

    1. Yes, it does raise problems that won’t be easy to dispatch: for the team, for Mark, [ what can he actually do about it? If he retaliates in a way that damages the team’s interests, they will be entitled to fire him].
      Crucially, Seb himself will not encounter problems, at least none that he can now forsee. That is the difficulty of the situation for Mark.

  58. Yep, about right. Some on twitter have said that they will be tuning in next time because of this so that is no bad thing. I think and hope that Mark comes back from surfing with an even greater will to win. I have a feeling that the 7pts gained by Seb in this race will cost him more in the long run. Bring it on!

  59. Thanks for a proper comment rather than the stupid ones that seem to appear,

    What Seb forgets is mud sticks you are always remembered for the one thing you shouldn’t have done the 100 good things get forgotten.

  60. I think he was genuinely sorry and regretted his poor decision, however it is done now and he has the extra points in the bag so whether he is sorry or not isn’t too important. The team is in a tough situation now, they will probably have to say this should never happen again and warn the drivers against it, however Mark will feel this is unfair as he will not be able to get those points back, the other option would be to let Webber past one time when Vettel is leading. I don’t think this would go down well with many people.

    The idea from the other team principle about pitting him could have been good (although it probably wasn’t an option due to the risk of loosing a 1 -2). With this Vettel has really shot himself in the foot, later on in the year I suspect eh will be fighting for the Championship, perhaps Mark will no longer be in it and so normally would play the team game and help him out, I can’t see that happening now. I think he has also hurt the sport (although people do like controversy and rivalries) as people may start talking about team orders again…

  61. If i owned a $100million piece of equipment i’d like to know that the operator will do as he’s told!

  62. Going out on the limb here to make a prediction: Vettel will win his forth drivers championship this year and these extra few points will be the deciding factor.

    I’m not a Red Bull fan but perhaps I’ve become a Mark Webber fan.

  63. Very wise words. I cannot imagine a similar thing happening at Williams and it is also worth pointing out that Ross Brawn carries sufficient authority for the Mercedes drivers do not countermand his instructions. I wonder if that will still be the case when he steps down?

  64. One of those moments that Seb will always be remembered for, if he is sorry he did it today, he will be really sorry he did it 30 years from now and people are still asking him about it! I am surprised Horner didn’t give the order to switch positions back, he can’t really be as critical of Vettel as he has been without taking some of the blame on his own shoulders. Marko’s comments post race also surprised me, the accepted wisdom is that Seb is “his” golden boy and can do no wrong, obviously this isn’t the case.
    Things like this can seriously damage team morale, and with things in F1 being as tight as they are, anything can make a difference. I don’t think Red Bull should suspend Sebastian, hopefully they can come up with a way of giving Mark his points back if they find themselves first and second in another race, but then there will be another day when noone feels like celebrating.
    Maybe in the long term Seb could find himself another team with a bit more history of favouring one driver over the other!

  65. I don’t understand why all of this screaming. Race means competition, not team orders.

    Webber has never been a team player. The last race in Brasil he raced vettel when he was fighting for the championship and nearly took him out of the track and vettel Did not scream.

    I Think no one has said anything about webber’s danger manouvere pushing vettel to the wall similar to the barrichelo-Schumacher who the 7 world champion apologized.

    And finaly vettel is faster than webber and. Has given red Bull three world champ.
    Not as other people that comes to a winning team having not won Any on that team and having an obvious number one status

  66. “he was never really unsporting in his behaviour”…hmmm. Not sure this applied when he took Webber out in Turkey 2010. This weekend he clearly showed, to me at least, that he has a particularly self-centred attitude. True, most F1 driver have to be extremely self-centred, but surely the mark of a mature driver is knowing when to apply it in the right situation.

    Ironic that Rosberg showed the kind of level headed and mature attitude that we should have expected from Vettel. I wonder if that’s due more to Ross Brawn’s authoritative control compared Christian Horner’s somewhat marginalised authority at RB? Christian has never really appeared to have the gravitas to stamp his mark on the team. However, Ross is now surrounded by Mercedes people who may try and undermine his authority in just the same was that Marko et al appear to have done with Christian.

    The meteoric rise of Vettel could prove to be his undoing. He certainly seems to be displaying some of the more unpalatable schumacher-ist tendencies.

    Webber showed that he’s capable of driving the RB9 just as well as Vettel in the right circumstances. However, lets not forget that RB’s strategy relies on one or both cars being on pole in order to make the swift getaway the car has to make in order for it to show it’s capabilities.

    As a postscript, I wonder if Vettel’s display at Malaysia is a trait of the latest generation of new drivers. To me a lot of them appear to want the fame and results handed them on a plate and damn the consequences. Is there a place for good sportsmanship in F1 these days?

  67. Hi Joe, hope you landed safely, but seeing this message i believe you did, and all feet firm on the ground. Thanks for your insight, all does it not feel exactly as if something new was written with the exception that you noted Webber to start to cool down. Its hard in this particular team, where both drivers, who i met several times – albeit in the rbr lounges – seem very pleasant personalities outside the car. We are not privat enough to hear all the team communications between pitwall and drivers. Webber claimed he was confirmed 2x that status quo was about to happen. I wonder though whether there had been really no response from Vettel, and what are like for like comparanle situations to analyse whether this was a one time incident that was driven by Seb being blind to go fot a win. Surely both have a drive to win and can be winners. I am really just trying to understand why Horner did not atleast try to make that call for Seb to give up that place. I believe the team also failed in the communications as it means that Seb could have given back the place 15x (laps).
    Horner saying ‘Seb thats silly’ should have been followed by a ‘noe give that place back bc we agreed as a team to turn the engines down, which is what Mark did, thats why you could easily catch him’. But then again we can also not look in the kitchen of the restaurant where we eat so often and they mess up the one time that you bring important guests. You ask them also to next time ensure it does not happen again. After that you should decide to go back or not, depending whether you believe it was s incident or not. Have a good day!

  68. What is being overlooked here, is that the ‘hold station’ team orders are damaging to the the sport. Both Merc and Red Bull are at fault for attempting to turn an exciting race into a final quarter of Tedium. Vettel gave the fans (those people who pay all the extra money to Sky to watch live, exorbitant grand prix ticket prices, and over-priced merchandise) some racing. Actual racing – that thing we all tune into watch. Praise be for Vettel refusing to lie down. Its time to revisit the team orders ban, because choosing how your drivers will run before the race has started is the opposite of racing. There is a time for ‘hold station’team orders: and that is in the last few races, when one teammate has the mathematically much greater chance of winning the championship.
    You argue that it is naive to have no team orders, and that Teams need to have such structures in order to keep things under control. Agreed, there will always be team orders, but its the right and appropriate application of them. F1 needs to remember who ultimately pays its bills – us, the fans. If we don’t support, sponsors don’t have the value in the sport to pay to be involved, and the money well runs dry – and they can ill afford to be taking fans for granted with the financial crisis F1 currently faces. Christian Horner and Ross Brawn take my support for granted every time they micro-manage and stymie racing.

    And Vettel should never have apologised.

    1. and how do you propose they be policed, since ultimately the inability to properly police them led to their being legalized…

    2. Vettel provided us with racing? No, he was able to get close to Webber and DRS zone because the latter turned his engine down.

      What’s really to blame here are the tires. Bring back tires that don’t degrade as much, allow teams to continually develop engines (hopefully attracting more manufacturers/sponsors), and put a limit on aerodynamics.

      1. I have to agree with Chris – the race felt like a sham to me, with the top 4 ‘racers’ not actually racing – toning it down saving engines and whatnot – how about actually racing? The rules need changing and fast in my opinion. Formula 1 should be about pure adrenalin racing – not team orders and toning down engines…

    3. So if YOU were spending $300m a year in pursuit of the constructors championship and associated prize money & status, you wouldn’t do everything to maximise your points haul each and every outing?

      1. If we follow that line of argument, then we really are talking about restraining racing. Might as well sign clear number 1 and number 2 drivers, and tell the fans at the start of the season which one gets to win.

        So they spend 300 Million to win the WCC, they only spend that money because the advertising investment is justified by the number of viewers, if that falls (it probably won’t) the desire to spend will fall. Of course on the flipside, do we think they would spend any less even if they do have a few races where teammates crash out and the team finishes lower in the championship? We are after all not talking about a team reliant on finding sponsors – infinitii came to Red Bull, they did not need them, they were fine on DM’s dime.

        I may be in the minority, but i feel its quite easy to police. A clear edict that team orders are tolerated in one set of circumstances, and the merest whiff of it in any others and they get a draconian penalty. Start dishing out the penalties and behavior changes. Of course, they must just get better at concealing it.

        But ask yourself this; whether or not team orders can be policed, wouldn’t you sooner watch a race knowing each driver has the same opportunity to fight for whatever place they may be fighting for? Wouldn’t you respect (and therefore support) a team more that put the quality of the spectacle ahead of everything else.

        Degrading tryes are fine – managing tyres is an art form, and shows a complete driver. I agree we need 50% less aero reliance though. Bring it into the realm of mechanical grip and we would perhaps not need DRS. It would be painful to go back to the processional races and position changes in the pits racing. That is how we lost viewers, and why on all those fan surveys, lack of overtaking was the number one bug bear.

        I also see a lot of double standards going on in relation to this issue, and think a lot of it is just dislike for Seb because he is winning a lot. We saw the same reaction to Schuey during his dominant period. We also saw the same level of ire pointed against team orders when Massa was made to move over at Hockenheim. Many said it was too early in the championship and Alonso should have had to fight his way past. Much of that was probably anti ferrari/alonso feeling coming out. Now we have people shouting that team orders are fine and Seb should have stayed in number 2 position.

        And again, i may be in the minority, but no-one “deserves” a victory until they cross the finish line. Mark would not have deserved the win, in fact he wouldn’t have “won” it. He would have been “gifted” it. Just as Schuey was gifted Austria 02 (the public and media outrage at such early season team orders being what initiated the ban in the first place), and Rubens was gifted that win at Indy.

        It seems to me that we (particularly the British press) like team orders when they help a driver we like, and dislike them when they don’t.

        I think (don’t know) that Webber must have turned the juice back up to be able to fight with Seb the way he did.

        And to clarify my position – I like Seb, I like Mark, I’d love to see Mark win a WDC, but for me Seb’s win on Sunday was a proper win. If Mark won it, it would have been pretty hollow. I was a hug Schuey fan, and i recognize he only won some of his races because the teammate was subservient (or at least it certainly made life easier for him). I didn’t like it then, despite my support for Schuey.

          1. But does that make it right? Should we not strive for a “sport” where we are ensured of a mano-a-mano deal each race – at least till near the end of the season? If public and media outrage helped initiate a ban on team orders in 2002 – a move that recieved a lot of support, why can we not demand more than simple cow-toeing to a company line. The fans spend the money when it all boils down – if they didn’t, the sponsors F1 does have wouldn’t be there.

            I’d be interested to hear your response to my points about the double standards in the reporting and commentary vis a vis FA/FM and SV/MW.

            1. Because that is how it is. You can demand as much as you like. It’s not your company, its not your rules.

              1. Not really a critically engaged answer. So, do you not believe the status quo should be challenged if it is of benefit to the sport and the viewer/attendee experience? If that is the case, you really can never write any blogs where you may postulate for something in the sport to be changed – you would have to follow your own mantra of “that’s how it is – not your rules”

                1. I can propose change if I wish to. But one should balance that with realism. There is no point in proposing that drivers wear pink tutus to encourage the female audience. It just isn’t going to happen. Team orders are part of the sport and breaking them is deemed to be unsporting. And that is how it should be.

                2. The presence of team orders, whether you like them or not, is unlikely to stop you watching a sport you clearly care very much about. Probably the opposite – though that’s not the reason they exist.

                  Joe isn’t suffering from a lack of moral imperative.. he’s just explaining the way something actually is. Your consistent desire to steer a discussion about an unavoidable force toward one about whether it should be there or not is akin to arguing with the effects of gravity. Naive and plainly futile.

      2. If i’m spending £300 million, i have a lot more money tucked away to justify spending the £300 million, and so i’m gonna not worry quite as much. And if i’m spending that, i know i’ve got to keep spending it to remain competitive, so i must have access to similar funds on an ongoing basis. (old joke isn’t there, to become a millionaire in F1, start as a billionaire – or something like that) And if i’m the owner of a brand whose marketing strategy is edge of seat, nail baiting, ball sweating, butt clenching thrill rides, i’m hoping letting my guys duke it out makes more people like my team, and buy more cans of my drink because we support never say die fights to the finish that thrill the crowds. And you can;t surely say the fight between seb and mark wasn’t thrilling.
        I’m pretty sure mark turned the wick back up – if he was just hobbled having turned the engine down, seb would have sailed past, not had to duke it out with Mark.

  69. I disagree entirely on this matter, Joe. Vettel had to gain maximum points. He would have been regarded for ever as a fool if he had held back. The titles are won by margins of 2 and 3 points….
    If you still disagree, then I ask: why didn’t Webber stop him and take the win?

    1. Because his engine was turned down? Because he knew that both his and Vettels tyres would be chewed up had they dog-fought for 10 laps? You tell me.

      What about Webber’s championship? His points? That he earned that day…. do they matter?

      Vettel should have been fighting with Hamilton for second place while Webber was 10 seconds up the road. That is what should have happened. Instead Vettel cheated his way to a win.

      I am all for team mates racing hard against each other. All for it! I’m not for cheating. When two guys get a call to turn down their engines and finish in formation and one of them does it and the other says nothing then zooms past him. That’s not racing.

      If Vettel was a man worth his salt he would have told the team very early he had no intention of following the order. He did nothing of the sort.

      1. Hi Andrew
        With respect, Webber did not have to abandon himself completely to a trusting and over-optimistic view of the world. He could perhaps have anticipated what his team mate may do. I don’t know if they both had engines turned down, or just Mark. Vettel was gaining on him, so it wasn’t exactly a bolt from the blue.

        Did Mark want this win badly? Of course. Did he do everything to get it? Not so sure …He put up quite a battle, but did not block well enough. That was his call.

        No one makes you a gift of anything in F1. Mark’s been around long enough to know that, and moaning about it later, imho, is no strategy for success.

        1. Mark led most of the race and out in front did not have a fuel mix to finish the race on full rich.

          He did not abandon completely. When things, however, became dangerous he pulled out of the fight to ensure that the team could receive maximum points.

          He did not feel Seb would overtake because the team had issues the order and twice confirmed with Mark it would be adhered to.

          As for trusting completely. If Mark continued to race hard and ragged after the team told him to down tempo, he would be just as much trouble as Vettel. Once the team tells you to slow down and bring it home.

  70. Another interesting point is the comparison between how Vettel and Hamilton handled their “undeserved” places on the podium. I suspect Petronas, as Mercedes’ sponsor, wanted superstar Hamilton on the podium, rather than Rosberg – for maximum PR value – and possibly even encouraged Ross Brawn et al to make the ‘right’ decision. Not always averse to the odd toy-throwing ego-inspired tantrum himself, I thought Lewis’ subdued celebration and open admission that Nico Rosberg deserved his spot showed a surprising and welcome humility. As a racing driver, Rosberg will still be hurting, but I’d suggest less than Webber.

  71. Agreed. There are certainly more nuances to this matter than what has been suggested by those who claim that Vettel just demonstrated that he has the competitive mentality of a triple world champion. I want to believe that a winning mentality and sportsmanship can co-exist.

  72. Hilarious that Red Bull say the tyres are ‘bad for the sport’, after a great race like that.

    Vettel’s ‘get him out the way’ comment was graceless, petulant, and revealing. Can’t quite see him the same way any more.

  73. I see there have been several people calling for Seb to be suspended by Red Bull for a race. Personally I can’t see them doing something that would be damaging to their constructors’ championship. So, what can they do that might be to their advantage?

    Here’s an idea – why not put Vettel back in a Toro Rosso for a race or two and give Vergne or Ricciardo a go in the Red Bull?

  74. The management of Red Bull is under scrutiny, in particular Christian Horner’s lack of control compared to Brawns affirmative action with Rosberg. Horner is a pussy cat and Seb knows it. I would sit Seb out for the Chinese GP as a reminder who runs the show.

  75. Joe,
    you are correct this was his Michael Schumacher parking the car at Rascasse corner moment. He made a bad judgment and on the podium interview did not apologize so anything afterwards is seen as PR spin. Why were you not discussing Hamilton? Because he apologized on the podium for following team orders. Which one looks better! If Hamilton got to that point on his own, he is the better person.

    My question is how RBR punish him. One race suspension? Webber gets all the upgrades first for half a season?

    1. Michael had a long string of such things: Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997 and the Monaco parking being the most obvious examples.

      1. Joe – As someone who has been involved in F1 for so long, I would be interested to hear as to whether you think Schumacher would be judged differently if he raced in a different era?

        I suspect he saw certain actions (eg Senna/Prost) early in his career and that led him to believe winning at all costs was acceptable. How do you think Senna or Prost’s actions are different to those of Schumacher’s later on? I think his biggest failing (and now also Vettel’s_ is not realising that the public ‘s perceptions had shifted.

        1. He would have been judged the same way. It is only in the modern era that some people try to justify bad sportsmanship.

  76. A fascinating article by http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/25967/f1-editoriale-vettel-e-alonso-rotto-il-rapporto-di-fiducia-con-i-team making this a weekend of drivers not respecting their teams – Vettel ignoring the TO and Alonso apparently ignoring his team telling him to pit (would be good if FOM could play radio messages to show if that one is true).
    Oh and giving a bit of spice for Niki Lauda supposedly critisizing Toto Wolff, and/or Brawn for issuing TO in the first place!

    A brilliant start to the season with a lot to talk about then (with McLarens possible recovery from Bad form and seeing what Lotus do to add in extra spice)

  77. As you touched on Joe, whilst not actually expressing it as an opinion, I think what grates with Vettel is his petulance. Coupled with his utterly ‘modern’ PR friendly persona, which is clearly not entirely of his own making, the fact that he is clearly aware enough to present himself as a very relaxed, affable, slightly impish figure only stands to highlight the paucity of his morality.

    Make no mistake – he is a ruthless operator. But he lacks the old-school charm of an Alonso or Raikonnen (in my opinion). He is a modern, corporate champion. Lacking in humility.

    I really hope that he can be made an example of by Red Bull and by the F1 community as a whole.

    It is something of a travesty, as we stand, that he has 3 titles to his name – and no doubt a 4th by the end of the season.

    1. But he lacks the old-school charm of an Alonso or Raikonnen (in my opinion). He is a modern, corporate champion. Lacking in humility.
      >> Old-school charm of Alonso? Old-school charm of Kimi Raikkonen?
      Alonso has been first made hero when he was fighting against ruthless German villain, and his indiscretions against Jarno Trulli and Fisichella were conveniently overlooked, and nobody complained about what Flavio and Alonso did at Renault between 2004-06.

      Alonso was widely criticized the moment, he demanded preferential treatment from an English team against his English teammate.
      Alonso suddenly seems to be given the “old school” charms, when he starts battling against German Vettel, and his unfair treatment of Massa ( China’10, hockenheim’10, Oz’13) is conveniently swept under the carpet now? How amazing.

      While Kimi may have that “don’t care” attitude towards F1, but how can fans defend his rude behavior toward “paying F1 fans”? I understand he doesn’t like the non driving aspects of F1, but being in F1 means obliging to some of these non racing activities (promotional events, etc.). The Finn is known for his rude behavior in those situations. PS last statements based upon personal experience at a Tag Heuer event back in 2006.

      So I wonder how does this sort of behavior meet the “old-school school charm” criteria?

  78. Webber set the precedent for unsporting relations with his actions at Silverstone in 2011. Here’s what Mark said:

    “I’m not fine with it, no, if Fernando retires on the last lap, we’re battling for victory. Of course I ignored the team and I was battling to the end. I was trying to do my best with the amount of conversation on the radio. I wasn’t doing much talking back, but I got a lot of messages coming my way, but I was trying to the end.”

    It’s come back to bite him… suck it up Mark. What goes around comes around, and Seb has to accept that his team mate will never back off him also. I’m sure the young German already knew that though.

    If you can’t walk the walk, don’t talk the talk.

    1. Well said, and last year in Brazil, Mark declared in tv interviews that he would run his own race, and do nothing to help SV, and the team capture both Champs.

    2. Maybe true! But had Vettel said this from the start then he would have needed to get past Hamilton and then 10seconds up the road he could battle Webber.

      It’s a little more sour when you say nothing and then take the first pit stop, undercut your team mate and pass him while he’s on a fuel saving mode.

      This is very, very different to Silverstone 11. In that race, Webber said “bugger that…. we’re racing”. Were the situations the same this race I would have been all for it. They were not the same at all!

  79. This is at least partly Christian Horner’s fault. Calling your driver ‘silly’ is not authoritative enough. I see parents in the supermarket telling their disgracefully-behaved children to ‘stop being silly’ all the time. It doesn’t work.

    The sad thing about this is that it continues to destroy Mark Webber’s trust in the team. I have nothing against a man ruining his own reputation (it’s his choice), but making someone else feel betrayed by his colleagues (and 9 months of the year, his closest travel companions) is a low blow.

    I would have preferred having Vettel radio the team from 5-6 seconds back and say “tell Mark – I’m going to have a go”. At least then he could claim transparency, and Webber’s trust would be less dented.

  80. Webber is 100% correct about favoritism focused on Vettel. All one has to do is read the comments made by Dr. Helmut “Egg on His Face today” Marko’s comments over the years.

  81. given the tense situation in the garage and the apparent distrust between webber and the team, i wonder what prompted him to resign time and again, and also, what made the team resign him again and again. something seems odd there.

    i agree that the team cannot tolerate vettels public disrespect. a team principal also shouldn’t admit publicly that he cannot control his drivers. so, 3 wdc or not, vettel must be punished in a manner that makes clear that he is never ever to ignore the interests of the team again.

    however, the team made management mistakes, otherwise, things wouldn’t have gotten to this point. they should have either signed another no. 2 driver, or have given vettel less protection in the past.

  82. Whatever one believes in, racers should race, or team orders are a necessary evil in todays high stakes world of business, I agree with you Joe that it was and is clear Vettel overstepped the mark (pun not intended) on Sunday and his actions were far from honourable.

    I wonder what would have happened had Mark gone elsewhere this year and Vettel was fighting a newly promoted, young and ambitious Torro Rosso driver? Would either or both cars have made it to the end? Mark brings a level of maturity and decency in addition to his driving skills to Red Bull, something both Vettel and Dr Marko would do well to appreciate and learn from.

    1. Exactly. I for one think team orders are ridiculous. I feel the correct thing to have happened on Sunday would have been for Mark to throw “Multi 21” out the window and engage a fighting fuel map.

      But at the end of the day, the orders exist. The strategy exists… and Seb should have followed that order. At least then the fingers would be pointed at the sad reality of team orders and not Seb’s arrogance.

  83. Christian Horner was disappointingly weak. His response to an interview question asking why he had not ordered Vettel to give the place back, which was to query whether Vettel would really ever have obeyed a command to do so, as if that justified Horner neither trying nor indeed being seen to try, was particularly hopeless. 😦

    Very disappointing.

    1. That was a total cop-out. As Joe has pointed out in his article here, Horner could have exerted his authority and that of the team on Vettel by simply ordering him into the pits, if only for a stop and go. Failure to do so by Vettel would probably have been a dismissable instance of insubordination. Vettel is an employee of Red Bull Racing, not the other way around.

      1. Would he really have listened though? If Horner had got on the radio and tried to cajole Seb into giving the place back, then suddenly switched his tune and said “Sebastian, there’s a problem with your car, pit immediately” then Vettel would have ignored that too.

        In for a penny, in for a pound. Vettel would have blitzed it to the flag and made exactly the same apology, while insisting that his radio didn’t work or similar.

        1. Of course if they really wanted to punish him they could have popped any of the various FIA seals before post-race scrutineering…

          1. That would have lost them 18 points, punishing the whole team as would almost any racing punishment they could exact in the near future — quite likely too bitter a pill for the team to swallow unless Matechitz somehow felt it had to be done.

            Don’t know that there’s any way back from here they’d chose to take, unless Horner suffers the brunt of it rather than Vettel?

  84. I would like to have been a fly on the wall at the debriefing meeting. Talking to friends who are not really into F1 but saw the race yesterday, the consensus of opinion was that:

    1. MW is a good guy, 2. SV is a petulant selfish brat, 3. CH has been severely undermined in public. If this were just about any other industry SV would be getting a bollocking at least.

    So what can Red Bull do: give him a telling off, financial penalty, deliberately compromise a race, suspend him for a race, fire him?

    I do think that CH dropped the ball by not ordering SV over the radio to let MW overtake him. This may have been futile in terms of the result but it would at least have been a very public reminder of who is the team boss.

    1. See that is interesting… because everyone who I have talked to who are not really into F1 can’t seem to understand how “team orders” are not considered “match fixing”.

      They also can’t understand how it can be considered a race if they are not allowed to race. I tried to explain such things in a very clear way: Team + Individual sport, best interest of the team, under contract, unfair, unsporting, blatent disregard for authority, etc. etc…

      But in the end the reply goes something like: “doesn’t really sound like a race”. I guess some people will never get the intricate little details that make F1 racing, F1 racing.

      But I will say it is far easier for me to understand the outsider definition of “racing” than it is for them to understand the twisted F1 definition of “racing”.

      1. It’s no different to a football team relaxing and taking it easy when they’re 4-0 up, or timewasting while protecting a slim 1-0 lead, or substituting the fragile star striker to ensure he doesn’t get injured.

        1. But it is different because at the end of the year there is a solitary individual being crowned as world champion. If the Constructors Championship was the only prize being handed out then you would be correct.

          This is both a team and individual sport. David Coulthard made a mention to a bygone era where the DWC was held in higher regard than the CWC:

          “Go back to Prost and Senna, I do not remember there being such a public outcry. The drivers were seen as bigger than the teams in those days, whereas now it is the other way around.” -DC

          Since there are two championships, it was as unfair for Red Bull racing to order both drivers to essentially “stop racing” in an automotive race, especially this early on in the season. Until one driver has been mathmatically eliminated from the championship, there should be no order to “hold station” for any driver. And such orders dilutes the sport to a chess game between constructors only, when it should ALSO be a race against drivers.

          But it was low for Seb to make the choice he did. A smarter thing to do would be finish the race in the order Red Bull requested, and then publicly criticize the order like Lewis did at Mercedes.

          I don’t like this team order, maintain position crap when both drivers are still eligible for a possible WDC. I hate it with a passion. But since that is the way it is, Sebastian should play by the rules. And he didn’t.

  85. joe, do you think webber is kicking himself for not signing with ferrari? i can imagine that in the same scenario ferrari could have well asked webber to move aside i.e. “fernando is faster than you…” but hasn’t webber been fooled twice (or more?) by RB by now?

    1. My gut would be that Webber wanted to sign, but Alonso has a clause in his contract to be #1 driver…. and Webber doesn’t like that. At least with RBR there is ‘apparently’ no #1 driver. At Ferrari, chances are it’s in the contract that you’re #2.

      If not this, then Mark is crazy for staying with RBR.

        1. After Massa’s fantastic second half to the season, perhaps a good thing he didn’t sign.

          The fact Newey is at RBR and next years regulations present a revolution could also have helped persuade Webber’s choice.

  86. As a fan of Vettel, I’m disappointed in his behavior this weekend. That’s all I really feel I can say on that.

    On a somewhat related subject, I have a question: When Alonso tried to go another lap with his broken wing, the commentary team here in the U.S. speculated for a bit that Alonso may have decided to do this on his own, suggesting he had ignored his team’s orders. I don’t know if they were able to follow up on that or not. Do we know if that a team decision or Alonso’s?

    My only speculation regarding the reasoning behind it was that they hoped they could buy some time for the track to dry out a bit more so they could switch off the intermediates and replace the wing at the same time. Regardless, it turned out to be a costly mistake and looked pretty silly in hindsight.

    1. Quote from Alonso:

      “Despite the fact the car was damaged, it didn’t seem to be too bad and, together with the team, we decided to keep going. If we’d stopped immediately, and then again on lap three or four to fit dry tyres, we would have dropped too far back and lost the chance to finish up the front. ”

      Seems like a team and driver decision.

    2. Ferrari accepted the blame for this, but if they didn’t plan to stop him on that lap, why were the pit crew out with a nose, only once Alonso had pasted the put entry did they go back in again. Make of that what you will.

    3. Disregard my question about Alonso/Ferrari – several news reports say it did come from the pit wall.

  87. >> Sebastian… is now forever going to be seen as unscrupulous.

    I’m not sure that will stick for too long. Schumacher, for all his faults, is still loved by many. And it seems like I’m the only person who doesn’t think the sun shines out of Alonso’s exhaust. I still don’t believe that Alonso knew nothing about Crashgate in Singapore 2008, and I don’t see how Alonso ‘failing’ to find first gear while in the pits with Hamilton queued behind him in Hungary 2007 is any different to Schumacher ‘parking’ his car on the final corner during qualifying at Monaco 2006. And yet team bosses and drivers alike are positively effusive in their praise of Alonso. And so they will be with Sebastian when he’s finally not in the fastest car, whether he ignores team orders or not. It’s not the first time he’s acted impetuously and history shows that he’ll carry on assuming he has this right, so long as the people running the team are standing in his side of the garage.

    And while your apposite Shakespeare quotation might be true of, say, politicians, F1 fans tend to base their opinions of championships own and legendary overtaking moves.

    For better or for worse, the top F1 drivers are demi-gods.

  88. Hi Joe,

    What about about another ramification of Vettel’s action in Malaysia ?

    No longer does the best man win, the ‘team orders’ system is tantamount to race fixing and those with knowledge of ‘team orders’ are in a position to gain financially by insider trading with the various ‘in play’ betting exchanges. Both race fixing and insider trading are illegal, why is motor racing, in particular F1, exempt from these laws ? The only way to negate the illegal financial manipulation of the ‘team orders’ system in betting circles is by banning betting on motor racing altogether.

    Someone should take a look at this as it seems to be a common practice amongst many people involved in F1. I am sure that an investigative journalist could find an explosive story here.

    My reaction is, good for Mr. Vettel, he certainly made a mess of anyone’s get rich quick plans in Malaysia last weekend.

    With best wishes

    Michael Moore

    1. i think they get around it by simply calling it a team sport. the answer is always that it was done for the benefit of the team.

  89. I agree whole heartidly with you Joe.
    What Vettle did was totally undermine the teams management & authority. I think he has proven to all of us his shelfishness and the teams bias towards him. I only hope in the coming weeks of racing we will see Webber step up and take the fight to his younger team mate if he’s allowed?

  90. None of this would have happened if they pitted Webber on the same lap as Vettel. Webber’s second last stint was two laps longer than Vettel’s, and one lap longer than the Mercedes duo, which seems entirely illogical. Made me wonder whether Red Bull was deliberately sabotaging Webber’s race even before the pass on track.

    1. No, if that was the case they would have slowed Webbers last pit stop down by a second. Then he would have left the pits behind Sebastian.

    2. Also, they gave Webber the superior pit strategy in the beginning of the race when they told him to stay out one more lap. That is the whole reason Mark was even ahead of Seb to begin with.

      1. Was Vettels call to come in for the tyres when he did, so how about a no to “giving” Webber the superior strategy.

        1. Yes, it was his call, when they questioned him on when to come in. He was the first driver questioned regarding tires, and they learned from his choice once he went back on track. In doing so they told Mark to go another lap. He wound up with the superior strategy.

          I am not saying this was planned ahead of time. I saw the whole damn race three times now. I know exactly how that went down. And at the end of the day Mark made his leading position via a superior strategy.

          I am not saying they did not ask Vettel when to come in. I know they asked him to use his judgement and come in when he wanted to. In the end it was not terrible judgement because others followed suit. But it gave the team information that gave Mark the lead.

  91. Joe – a very insightful post as usual, and looking at the broader consequences you are spot on. I have said in the past that Vettel struck me as Mr Friendly on the outside, but a pretty sly operator. I had no evidence to back it up. To me, its plain that he is obsessed about taking down Schumacher’s records and i agree that he knew damn well what he was doing when he saw a chance to take win no.27. What irks me is that he probably thought “well at least i still keep the win and the 25 points, this will blow over”.

    How wrong he is. This is his Austria 2002, Jerez 97 or Monaco 06. A stain not easily removed.

    I was also really disturbed by the tone of his voice when he said Mark was too slow mid race and to “move him out of the way”. It was dismissive and full of contempt. An unpleasant side was shown.

    Finally – the team have to wear a large part of the blame here. Why give Vettel the undercut? Mark lost his 4.5 sec lead in the process. Had Mark been given the stop first (as is proper for the leader), the swing would have been the other way and he would have probably had an 8 second lead and none of this would have happened. Vettel was handed a 3-4 second advantage and then was able to enjoy DRS for a couple laps and set himself up for a move.

    Horner’s pitiful words “this is silly” are laughable when contrasted with the firm authority shown by Ross Brawn at Mercedes in issuing orders to Rosberg. Its almost like the team wanted the switch to happen but made it so they could have some “plausible deniability”. Otherwise, it is just poor team management.

    It will be very interesting to see Red Bull’s next move regarding disciplinary measures for Vettel.

    Love the blog, thanks for the hard work and effort in bringing us “inside the tent”.

  92. vettels apology was completely empty and meaningless – going through the motions to be seen to do the right thing – after the event which saw him take the win as he wanted. Failure on both vettel for acting like a spoilt kid, and Horner for allowing him to.

    however talk of a one race suspension for vettel is idiotic – this damages the entire team. he just needs to be managed by someone he respects, as per both mercedes drivers with brawn.

  93. + if the title comes down to Vettel v Alonso (or Kimi or Lewis) and Mark is retiring, do you think he’ll help Vettel or the other guy?

  94. Great article Joe, agree with what you have written. I’ve heard John Watson’s call for Vettel to serve a race suspension so Red Bull show who’s boss. Whilst I agree with John its would be a just outcome to this there’s no way in the real world that it would actually happen. Vettel knew he would get away with it. It may also damage his reputation but I get the feeling he would rather have the win and championship points than a perfect reputation.

  95. Putting the moral compass arguments aside for one moment, which are all very valid. Does anyone else think that Mark was a bit naive on Sunday?

    If the roles were reversed, what would Vettel have done in the same circumstances? After winning the battle out of the pits down to turn 4, the team issue a call to hold station. Seeing that the guy behind was still racing, I think Seb would have got straight on it and pulled out a few super quick laps to build up a little gap. The team would have been angry as at that pace he could not make it to the finish, but this puts the power in the lead drivers’ hands. If the team want to call off the race, the guy behind needs to slow down first.

    Pure postulation of course, but I think that is one of the reasons why Seb is the champ, and Mark is not.

    Plus, we know he isn’t that much like Michael, who would show no contrition for as long as it took for people to stop asking.

    I’m sure he, Vettel and we will get over it in time. Isn’t there a much storied race from the 50-s F2 era when Ascari disobeyed team orders to chase down and pass Farina for the win? Perhaps the Swiss GP?

    1. Not at all. He trusted Vettel to obey the team order. That is respect. In the end Vettel did not deserve that respect.

  96. Great words Joe – Still, I would really love to hear a little more opinion from the only journalist in F1 to seem willing to share an honest one…

    … what do you see as the fallout of this?

    Christian’s position at stake?
    Could, or *should* Vettel be punished?

    In the wider context of the story, I was very disappointed to see Sky being so pragmatic. Johnny Herbert looked ready to explode on Christian (“we all know what Mark means by protection Christian”)… yet Simon held him back.

    Can’t any journalist at least talk more openly and give us their opinion? They don’t have to be right, but their real opinion would be valuable.

    1. I don’t know the fallout. Mateschitz calls the shots and I doubt he is given the true picture about his team is viewed because inevitably he is surrounded by yes-men.

  97. Clearly, Vettel should have followed the team’s orders. However, as an F1 fan since the late 1970s, I have to say that I am unlikely to watch many races this year. The reason? I simply dont want to watch a “tyre management” exercise and hear more about how this improves the “show”. If I want to watch sport dressed up as entertainment, I could watch wrestling. I know many people enjoy the current arrangement and think it improves the spectacle (and fine for them), but I personally want to see a *sport* where drivers can race one another throughout the race. I suspect that is what Vettel wants.

  98. My guess is that Vettel reads Shakespeare … but only the tragedies.

    “If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well
    It were done quickly.”

    Tips on passing from MacBeth.

    1. ‘Julius Caesar’ is a comedy?!

      Kudos to you, Geoffrey, for posting under a real name – why aren’t there more of us? You and Joe both make a very good point: I reckon Shakespeare would have enjoyed the Malaysia race as much as any in the last five years.

    2. Is this an engine mode selector I see before me, its amusingly-coloured knob towards my hand? Come, let me clutch thee…

  99. His excuse of not knowing about the team order was what killed his reputation for me. He was simply lying through his teeth. The order was broadcasted to millions of viewers and Seb didn’t know about it?
    Anyway, I loved what Ross Brawn said to Nico when the latter asked for a pass. ‘Lewis’ time is what we asked him to do. He could’ve gone faster if we asked.’ Or something of that sort. A passive aggressive way of saying, ‘Stay put and shut up.’

  100. did button not do the same to hamilton in turkey 2010 after the red bull collided, tho he did regain the place ?

    1. If I recall they hadn’t actually told button not to race. It was genuine miscommunication. It wasn’t button deliberately mishearing an order and then nearly taking Hamilton out.

      Button and Hamilton generally seemed to race fair but hard when their paths crossed.

      Mark and vettel less so. On the occasion Lewis hit button it was in torrential rain and poor visibility.

      1. Unlike Mark at Silverstone in 2011, as he openly pronounced to the media? Very little criticism of him then from the F1 community.
        It was extremely impetuos of Seb yesterday. Fingers crossed the ‘stolen’ 7 points is worth a lot more to Alonso, Kimi & the rest of the chasing pack, if the fallout affects RB through the rest of the season.

        1. There was no outcry because Mark did the right thing. Just like Vettel. However Mark is much longer in F1 than Vettel and has a load of supporters, hence the big outcry this time.

  101. A comment: I think Marko will not say another bad word about Vettel’s behavior. He will revise his thoughts pretty soon.

    A question: can the teams no longer “turn down” the engine from the pits? Seems to me like they could have threatened Vettel with that if he wasn’t to have ceded the place back to Webber?

    1. Not sure, but I believe remote control of the car was banned in the 90’s… after it became a bit unclear how much of the driving was being done by the driver vs. by the team’s trailer full of engineers… telemetry permits those on pit wall to see what’s what with the various driver-operated settings, but they can’t do anything about it…

        1. Thanks for that…

          Tangent: Odd that they use “pit-to-car telemetry” as a name for “remote control”… which it isn’t. Telemetry is just reading data from afar… nothing about it implies remote control. “Pit-to-car telemetry” would permit the driver to read data transmitted from the pits, e.g., allow Nico to read Ross Brawn’s blood pressure…

  102. Win at all cost!!!
    That is what I liked about Schumacher and I’m glad Seb now proves to be an equally ruthless beast

    His apology was silly though, he should better look how Michael dealt with little incidents like this

      1. That’s the beauty of Sport. Spectators with different sporting cultures can watch the same sport and get equal satisfaction.

      2. Beg’s the question in what way do you consider something as contrived as F1 to be a ‘sport’ ?

        1. That is easy. It must be a sport because the teams are bad at being businessmen – spending all their profits and more when they don’t need to – that it cannot be considered a business.

          1. Joe, people like Tyrrell, Dennis or Frank, not to mention Bernis, have extracted millions from the sport. Even Eddie Jorden did. In my view they are anything but bad businesspeople. And how about Brawn, Nick Fry and so on? Didn’t their team make them rich?

              1. Indeed, they make even the team bosses look shy and modest. I always thought it was a bad idea to sell F1 to the money bags, to the same greedy people that were the source of many a crisis and then called for government support when things get iffy. Good old Bernie stabbed the F1 bosses in the back through this move. I always wondered they accepted those things instead of going their own way. I guess what they were missing was a decent leader who would be able to go head to head with Bernie.

      3. I watch this sport to be entertained and the Webber/Vettel duel was way more entertaining than Nico staying behind Hamilton cos uncle Ross said so.

  103. If Vettel has started to believe his own hype and becomes Billy Big Head then he will get his comeuppance.. As for Webber it must be tough driving the best car in F1 for a great salary I would consider resigning for less than a nano second then go back to work. Better to be a number 2 driver for Red Bull than number 1 for Force India!!

  104. Since yesterday i see a tsunami of collective memory and dubble standard articles from most of the commentators. I expected this place to be different. (this is my first post ever here but i reed most of you’r articles and have found them mostly fair, that’s why i like to know what was you’r take on the GB gp of 2011 when Webber tried the same thing)

    I like to know what you had written about it when with 2 laps remaining Webber Proudly ignored the teamorders to maintain his place!!
    I remember very clearly that MOST people and media were against it back then and took side with Webber and gave him right to fight and Webber defended his acts in media and said i ignored the team orders and pushed untill the end.

    The ONLY difference yesterday was that Vettel could actually overtake him successfully. I don’t believe that Webber’s engine was turned down. They never found time for that. Vettel (while being on faster tires) was right behind him when he came out of the pits.
    How could he keep him behind for a few laps if his engine was turned down while we know he was on the harder tires?

    If it wasn’t for Vettel we would have had the most boring race since a few years. Now what happened to those who were against T.O, what happened to those who liked to see teammates fight with eachother.
    Webber has done this a few times, the last time was in the title deciding race of 2012, while he was out of contention.
    So why Should Vettel (a 3 times champion) so early in the season respect the guy who almost ruined his 3th championship in just 3 races ago??

    I,m very disappointed in Vettel for saying sorry. He should have immediately said this is for that and proudly had defend his actions. Webber as a hypocriet cried to the media back then when they asked him to maintain his place and again today is crying that his teammate did what he has done more than once. After all this is the precedent himself Proudly has set.

    And finally now just IMAGINE if it was Button instead of Vettel, Would the british media have said the same things?? I doubt it!
    I remember very well when the team asked Hamilton to take it easy, he asked wouldn’t Button attack me? they said no, he won’t. Though Button did it and the only difference was that Hamilton could successfully take his place back.
    I don’t doubt a second that all the things said about unsportive Schumacher would have been in opposite if only he was a british.

      1. Thanks for your reply, though you didn’t say what was your position on Webber ignoring the T.O with 2 laps remaining back in Silverstone 2011?!!? I hope you haven’t contradicted yourself with this article.
        This is a link of Webber proudly admiting he ignored the teamorders that day:
        “I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”
        http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/07/10/webber-red-bulls-order-pass-vettel/
        ——————————
        I hope i haven’t done anything wrong by publishing a link from another website here if so i,m sorry and please feel free to take it off!

        1. I would have to look back at that in detail, but I don’t remember it being such a big deal. If it was it would have stuck in my memory.

          1. Actually there was a little fuss about it in the media (you can check the results of the pole under that same link i posted and you see that back then some 75% of people were against those orders and wanted to see a fight till the end while no one cared a bit about the team’s interests at all unlike this time that they are mostly in favor of the T.O (so early in the championship) and they are also so worried for the interests of the Redbull.
            I,m surprised you don’t find it a big deal, i guess the fact that Webber wasn’t able to pull the move that day makes people to not find it important but i,m sure Webber’s failure to pass Vettel wasn’t due to him not trying his best. Back then Webber proudly admited on ignoring the orders and this time he find it crazy that Vettel did the same thing.

      1. I don’t know to whom this remark is aimed, but I have some career advice for you if it is aimed at me…

          1. Correct, was aimed at ‘a fan’. In the light of day, however, I was harsh and apologise for that. But not for the accuracy of my comment.

            Joe, I respect and read your stuff all the time. One of the few F1 scribes who tell it like it is.

    1. You obviously have strong feelings about this subject, but have you considered that you could be wrong about this incident? you say you don’t believe that Mark’s engine was turned down. That’s a strong accusation, what are you basing it on? Don’t forget that the team know from the telemetry exactly what engine map both drivers are running, and I have heard no denial from the team that Mark had refused to turn his down. I would have thought it would help their cause if that were true, but it seems clear to me that it isn’t.
      You make a lot of comparisons between Vettel’s actions on sunday and other drivers in the past, I don’t really see that what other drivers have done justifies Seb’s actions. Two (or three) wrongs don’t make a right, and just because other drivers have done (or tried to do) the same thing in no way excuses what Sebastian did.
      You ask if the British media would react in the same way if Button had done the same thing, I think they would. I think that we would see a lot of reporting of the facts of the incident and a lot of negative coverage for Jenson.
      Ultimately media coverage, and past behaviour by other drivers is of no relevance to this case, what it comes down to is “did Sebastian Vettel do the wrong thing on Sunday?”
      You obviously believe he didn’t, but here is a short list of the names of some of the people who think that he did;

      Christian Horner
      Helmut Marko
      Sebatian Vettel.

      I think alll the above named are better placed than you to decide.

  105. So Vettel shows his Schumacher-esque side, what else was everyone expecting? As per his apologies, pleeaasse… zig zaging before the finish line, and that finger… He was sorry NOT.

    In any case, here’s a question Joe: why do you think Webber in turn didn’t switch the engine mode back on in order to give little schumi a run for his money? Was that not possible? Were his tyres already kaput? Why did he leave the door open in that final corner before the pass, instead of running him out into the grass?

      1. It sounds as if he did turn the engine back up but given vettel ‘s previous with crashing when he’s in red mist mode you have to wonder if mark thought it was just too dangerous. The way he dropped back after that suggests either his tyres or spirit was wearing out.

  106. Very erudite of you to quote Shakespeare regarding this brouhaha. I prefer Hyman Roth:”…this is the business we’ve chosen.”
    The Godfather: Part II

  107. Give someone the hand and they’ll take the arm. The Golden Child will not be stopped. More importantly, I am sure Mateschitz and Marko are completely satisfied with the outcome. The Golden Child has been coddled and shielded and dare I say, encouraged, for such behavior. There is no respect by Vettel for Webber. Webber needs to dig deep, I am sure, to continue on in this team that has clearly abandoned him, at least at the very upper echelon.

    Oh and by the way, Vettel 25 points; Alonso 0. I am sure Alonso was called to pit in for a wing change but ignored team orders as well, and there is nary anything about it after the race.

  108. I want to add this as well, Horner couldn’t do anything about what happened. Not when he knows that the Golden Child is Mateschitz favorite son….leading the blue and purple bull on wings to first over and over, as dollars rain from above into Swiss and Austrian accounts. Horner was already in a weak position because the Golden Child knows who butters the bread and is the “chosen one.” Mark can only take solace in the fact that Red Bull just gives him wings, and not wins.

  109. Thank you Joe enjoyed your article as ever.
    Unfortunately all the protestations of unfair, ungentlemanlike or unsporting will mean nothing. Vettel has demonstrated with three championships to his name that he is the quicker of the two RBR drivers;, only I might add because of the genius of Adrian Newey. He is Red Bull’s favoured driver and all the RBR PR team’s damage limitation will be now being worked falt out to put a good slant on this. Pressure will not be on Vettel but on Webber to toe the PR line.and not make a fuss. Christian Horner comes out very badly in this episode and appears a rather weak ineffectual leader, contrast Ross Brawn with his dealing of Nico. A disappointing race.

  110. Roger Penske always instructs his drivers to pass if they can, just don’t crash into each other. No team orders. If it is good enough for The Captain, an extraordinarily successful man, it should be good enough for every other racing team

        1. Penske decided the money was not in F1… not for a team owner anyway… the man knows how to run successful, profitable organizations… he got his feet wet in F1, decided it wasn’t worth it, and refocused his efforts elsewhere… not sure how much he cared about the prestige, but it’s safe to say he cared more about the money…

      1. Let’s not be dismissive of Roger Penske: his car won in F1. Look it up. Oh, and his teams have won pretty much everywhere else and in multiple other series. Christian Horner is a nice guy but he isn’t worthy enough to lick Roger Penske’s shoes.

        Separately, I thought it was a nice touch to send Adrian Newey to the podium to collect the Constructor’s trophy; maybe Horner thought his presence there would make the RB drivers ponder how lucky they are to be driving a Newey car, and temper their anger. Alas, no such luck.

        Which leads me to wonder: why not send Vettel packing and make the necessary moves to have Jules Bianchi in the car in China. I mean, he’s won at the lower levels and he’s positively dusting Chilton. I suspect Bianchi would probably be just as fast as Vettel. And maybe even faster after a few races.

          1. Yes, the STR drivers are auditioning for a RBR seat and Ricciardo is probably worthy of one right now. But the seat they’re vying for is that of Webber, when the Aussie decides to stand down.

            The virtue of putting Bianchi in the other car is that it would be understandable if he wasn’t quite up-to-speed right away, so RBR wouldn’t take heat for appearing hasty.

            The goal of replacing SV with JB is to remind everyone involved that, 1) the team’s goals are paramount; and 2) 95% of the car-driver performance is down to the car.

            Christian Horner should resign immediately, from a career point of view. He’s taken the ex-Jaguar team to multiple world titles in about seven years. He can trade that in anywhere along the F1 pit-lane for another job after a year “fishing.” If he stays, however, he signals his willingness to be cuckolded by a driver, which will not make him an attractive F1 team principal candidate.

            1. Let’s try this another way :

              1) What would the incentive be for Ferrari to let go of Bianchi?

              2) What would the incentive be for Red Bull if we assume that Ferrari keeps Bianchi?

              3) What would the incentive be for Bianchi to burn his bridges with Ferrari (where he may well replace Massa in a couple of years) and gamble on Red Bull not throwing him out of the meat grinder like everyone else?

              4) Why not just take Buemi who’s the test driver and thus should know the car much better (assuming we’re just talking about a Chinese GP stand-in)?

              Other than the fact that he’s shown some good pace, I personally see no logic to Bianchi driving SV’s car in China, for him or the teams involved.

    1. IndyCar: points down to 33rd position, 1st-2nd points difference is 20%, 2nd-3rd is 12.5%.
      F1: points to 10th position, 1st-2nd difference is 28%, 2nd-3rd is 17.7%.

      What I’m trying to point out is that it is far more important to finish up a position in F1 than it is in Indy (or NASCAR, for that matter). Where the incentives are greater, greater risks will be taken. Add in to that equation the fact that an accident on a high-speed, concrete-lined oval is much more likely to end in injury (and almost certainly a DNF, at the least) and you can see why Penske might feel that his drivers could be trusted not to take each other out.

      1. Well, there might be various ways to explain it away, but Penske has always been known for his belief that success comes from attracting the best people and giving them both responsibility and authority. If they measure up, that’s great. If they don’t measure up, they’re gone.

        His philosophy applies to drivers, just as it does to his other people. This means that his drivers are allowed to race while being forbidden from crashing into each other. When he’s satisfied that Paul Tracy, er, uh, I mean a driver cannot be trusted to race responsibly, that driver finds himself without a Penske seat.

  111. lets get this straight…Joe, awesome and reliable take as usual. Vettel lovers; lets be honest he’s good, but not a great, just happened to have a billion dollars worth of fizzy drinks behind him, call it being in the right place at the right time….and good on him for that. But just like the last wunderkind, he’s a brat and a bad sport. Go Webber. Stick it to him.

  112. OK, I admit I am a Michael Schumacher fan, and yes, his ruthlessness did at times border on the extreme BUT one of his most credible characteristics was that he was a team man – always put the team first, and would never have disobeyed a team order. Vettel’s behaviour was absolutely distateful and leaves a bitter taste. Yes, “nice guys seem to come second” which is a pity …

  113. When Kimi was asked last week if he missed Schumacher and he answered “No”. I guess now we know what he meant!

    On a serious note, did he just rule himself out of a Ferrari seat by showing he’s above the team?

    1. On a serious note, did he just rule himself out of a Ferrari seat by showing he’s above the team?
      >> Ferrari employed Alonso, who was deemed as bad goods by an English team and English-speaking media, didn’t they? On top it, media worked overtime to demonstrate it was just few individuals at McLaren, including Alonso and PDLR that had access to the Ferrari data and were testing it with gusto, while keep the top bosses in McLaren in the dark, and yet both are now in Ferrari (the team that is yet sore about Coughlan and Stepney’s return to F1) .

    2. Good point.
      I am pretty sure that neither Stefano Domenicali, nor the ‘management trust’ at Scuderia Ferrari would be that impressed to see Sebastian Vettel thumb his nose at the authority of the RBR Team. If SF are thinking of getting Vettel’s services in 2014 or so, wouldn’t this give them a ‘big pause’ to think “Hang on…., the kid just told his current Boss in a demonstrable way that he calls his own shots.”

      What is Italian for “Danger, Danger Will Robinson”? JF

        1. Perhaps.

          Or perhaps they were looking for a #1 and were happy that he was ruthless about putting himself first… just like they didn’t seem to mind it when he passed teammate Massa on pit entry… just like they were happy to hire Schumacher…

          Not saying I know, just saying I gotta wonder about it…

  114. I think Vettel’s show-off victory weave before he even crossed the line revealed far more of his personality. He beat his team-mate who had turned his engine down as per team direction. Wow, what a grand victory. Passing a guy who had his engine turned down. Might as well applaud Vettel’s racecraft everytime he laps a back marker. It’s not like Seb was fighting it out all race against Alonso or Hamilton in a hard fought victory.

    The people who are commending Vettel for being a real racer forget that he wasn’t racing a fair race against Mark. Red Bull gave the order to turn down the engines to secure the positions. Mark did but Seb didn’t. If Mark hadn’t turned down his engine and hadn’t been in coast mode but rather kept pushing 100% to the end, then Seb wouldn’t have passed him.

  115. I thought the ‘Mark is too slow, get him out of the way’ comment Vettel made in lap 26 or so (before Webber, who was conserving his tyres, sped up), was every bit as telling. The annoyed tone with Webber and the matter-of-fact manner in which he told instead of asked Horner/RBR to remove Webber, to me clearly shows the position Vettel has – or thinks he has – at Red Bull.

      1. I know! Thank you! It seems so many people overlooking the fact that on the same lap vettel made his petulant call sounding like a stroppy five year old mark pulled out 7/10ths on seb.

        Vettel was asked when to put for slicks and he made the wrong call. He made the right tyre call in quali, but he couldn’t live with his position.

  116. Everybody is saying how Vettel did the wrong thing, but if he wins the championship by <7 points, I think a few people may be saying something different at the end of the year.

      1. It sure will Joe.
        If Vettel does win the 2013 WDC by 7 points or less, then he will be labelled as the guy who won a 4th WDC by bad sportsmanship in Round 2 (if that is the only Round he does it). This case would further cement/magnify a ‘publicised blot’ on his personal legacy in the F1 sport.

        Does the name Didier Pironi ever get mentioned without the stigma of his underhanded jumping past Gilles Villeneuve, despite team-assurances of formation finishing, on the final lap at San Marino 1982? JF

  117. Too confusing for me. Villeneuve-Pironi, MSchumacher-Barrichello, RSchumacher-DHill, various less notorious, and now this, each with different factors and nuances. I certainly can’t conclude anything worthy of basing a new rule on. As to the management’s anger, hearing him reminisce it seemed BRM’s Tony Rudd was similarly ticked-off at Jackie Stewart at Monza ’65.

  118. So this is the same Christian Horner who thought he could take over from Bernie? Love or loathe ecclestone but can’t imagine him being ignored by a driver. If Christian can’t even bring two drivers in line how was he expecting to impose his will on a cat fight of teams and sponsors?

  119. SV said straight after the race he wasn’t aware of the order or didn’t properly understand it, but I understand has now conceded he did hear it and was aware. Is that true, because that would be an interesting insight into his character?

  120. I am surprised at the outrage here, especially in regards to an international supersport like F1, with its long history of ruthless intrigue. The history seems littered with known and unknown good guys that got wounded and crushed along the way. ?This episode is … special?

    I too felt empathy for Webber and Rosberg – as I do for every ‘any man’ that has been passed over for a more capable, more talented, or – more ‘connected’ rival. I too wished for some poetic justice at the end of the race, like Vettel suffering some slip or some equipment failure that cost him his ‘stolen’ victory within sight of the finish line.

    But champions are not always ‘wired’ like other people – See Smellyden’s post above: Competitive animals know no limits. Over here in America, there were [Michael] Jordan Rules and [Dale] Earnhardt Rules. We winced or averted our eyes at the unfairness from which they often benefited, but they are now near-universal legends. And while Charles Barkley is a hugely popular and much more human and sympathetic figure than Jordan – he’s not a ‘Winner’.

    I like and admire Webber and wish him lots of success and happiness. But, he ain’t no Vettel. He is a wing man, and always will be. Mozart had his Salieri (historical license acknowledged).

    I hoped that Vettel would have been so gracious and confident a champion that he would have let Webber had his time, knowing that he could miss a “W” and a few points – and still triumph at season’s end and in the history books. But I am not surprised nor revolted that he did not.

    Stand aside and let the big dog eat, fellas. Mind your fingers. Red Bull is not jerking this leash. And, Webber, enjoy your surfing, bud. You’d be carrying Alonso’s bags over at Ferrari, just as well. It is what it is. Tsk.

  121. Sir, thank you once again for reflecting and writing about it on this virtual tool.

    Hope is what got the 44th U.S. President elected in office several years ago now.
    you are brave to correctly point out that the character of S.V. is being revealed as he accumulates these types of actions.
    his mentor M.S. does have a flawed moral compass which has been passed on to the next generation of so called world driving champions in formula one because it is good press to have two bulls fighting to the end and reinforcing the brand that is profiting from the young men who are learning from the actions of their peers.
    it only confirms my reasons for not tuning in any more.
    Be well and continued courage monsieur Saward.

  122. It would be nice to know if Vettel jumped Mark unfairly or if he was ready for the fight. DRS on a long straight makes the leading driver a sitting duck in even cars – if Mark was conserving while Vettel was going for it one can see how Mark got surprised and was behind the curve.

    The resulting fight was amazing to watch but Vettel barely pulled it off after Mark gave him the room to stay on the track. It may have worked only because he got the jump on Mark.

    If that pass was unfair, the team should have made Vettel give the position back – anything else is tacit team approval. If both drivers were racing fair and square I have no problem with it – the more racing the better. Most likely Horner didn’t give the order because if ignored the entire world would know who was in charge – Vettel. Perhaps patching Dietrich Mateschitz onto the radio would have done the trick.

    Based on the ‘conversation’ between the two before the awards ceremony my impression is that Webber had his engine turned down (“Multi-21”) so it wasn’t a fair pass. Winning with honor matters – I hope Mark gets the chance to go for the championship.

    There is a lot we don’t know so I’m keeping an open mind – it can take years for situations like these to be fully understood.

    As a fan I want to see a fair battle and find out who is best at every race. When Vettel barely edges Mark I often wonder if it was on merit – if Webber wins I know he beat the odds yet again.

    Apparently Hamilton asked to let Rosberg past and was pointedly refused by Brawn. That was a clear team decision – unfortunately. But at least they can remain friends.

    At this point Vettel is teetering on the edge of my Schumacher bin. I root for any driver doing their best and playing fair who seems to have something special. Once they fail the moral terpitude test I turn my back – they are the enemy.

    Here’s to another great F1 season – may the best team and driver win!

        1. I read somewhere that it means there were multiple times when the order 21 was given, meaning the finishing order shall be car #2 first and car #1 second. Don’t know whether that is true, though.

          1. I didn’t read it anywhere, but I did wonder if the digits had significance that would have Vettel liking the sound of “multi 12” a lot more…

  123. Thanks a lot for not publishing my comment which hopefully wasn’t disrespecting you or others and it was merely showing the dubble standards and collective memories of some people.

  124. The problem is not Vettel. The problem has never been Vettel. Vettel is paid to win races. Vettel did exactly what they hired him to do.

    The problem is Chris Horner. Horner refuses to publicly state what everyone save Webber already acknowledges: Webber is a #2 driver.

    Horner suffers Webber’s delusions because Webber contributes substantially to RBR’s Constructors Championship score, but he coddles him at Vettel’s expense. It is high time this topic came to a head and everyone laid their cards on the table. Tell Webber to yield position to Vettel as a matter of routine and he won’t have to endure further humiliation.

    If this same incident had happened last season, and if Vettel had ceded a win to Webber, he’d have lost the WDC by five points. If Vettel wins the 2013 WDC by a slim margin, I guarantee perceptions of his actions in this race will change dramatically.

    Now there is a rumour that Webber is considering leaving the sport on account of this incident (which is materially identical to what he did to Vettel at Silverstone in 2011). He has been an excellent #2 driver so I’m sure Horner and Newey and Vettel will miss him sorely…

    …until they can get his replacement’s seat fitted.

      1. Joe,

        Excellent article, thoughtful insightful.
        I guess the problem for Vettel and Red Bull is how to motivate Webber to help win the title. Last year Webber took about 19 points off Alonso over the season, Vettel won by the title by significantly less……

      2. Might part of the problem be Vettel’s choice of backgammon partner? Every good boy deserves favour, but it’s easy to see how even the nicest youth from Heppenheim might develop a sense of entitlement and think the sun shines out of his fundament, if the most powerful man in the sport singles him out for special treatment.

  125. The quote from Shakespeare is of course relevant also when it comes to those that are quick to judge others.

  126. Still can’t get over why Christian Horner didn’t absolutely order Vettel to give back the place. And, I’m surprised Vettel didn’t use the excuse of being on different tyres at the end and his whole race strategy was built around that. I think a fitting punishment would be to relegate him back to Toro Rosso for one race.

    This isn’t Senna/Prost, Villeneuve/Pironi or even Jones/Reut for me, but still pretty good drama for this generation.

          1. They would have made it very clear that it would be a good idea to return to where he should have been.

            1. Reminds me of Mclaren doing just that (albeit in different circumstances) by ordering Coulthard to give up his lead to Hakkinen in Melbourne 98. DC didn’t like it but accepted it.

              If Horner’s a Muppet, then what purpose does his role actually serve, and who really calls the shots at RBR? Unlike Brawn, Domenicali, etc in other teams, it’s a bit unclear at RBR at least from the outside – is it Horner, Marko, DM, Newey? All of the above? Might explain why Horner didn’t have the b__ls to reverse the order when he clearly thought ‘this is silly’ on the radio. Or maybe he knew a direct order like that would be ignored and faced with even more credibility issues over his management.

              Good on you for telling it like you see it.

        1. Wow. Strong words. But justified. If it were Ron Dennis, then he would have brought Vettel into the pits to make a point. If it were a repeat offence, he’d bring the car in and retire it to reinforce the point.
          Okay that last sentence might be an exaggeration…

  127. Does ANYONE remember that two years running, Mark Webber publicly said he would nothing to help Vettel’s WC bid, even though he was out of the running? Does anyone remember during Vettel’s impressive race to the front in Brazil last season, that Webber not only did not move over, when Vettel caught him, he also fought him wheel to wheel putting both championships in danger for Red Bull? Where was Horner’s anger about that, or Vettel’s, well there wasn’t any, even though Webber a non-factor in the title was selfishly making himself a factor.

    Mark is a great victim, just like Rubens, just like pre ’92 Mansell, always moaning when someone else is delivering the titles.

    These tires are ridiculous this year, what’s the sense of having the best drivers cruising around afraid to push their tires? I’m all for having close unpredictable races, but when drivers are afraid to race, it turns into a team parade where 6 or the top 10 spots we’re one teammate behind the other.

    1. Obviously not, they all have forgotten those times when Webber proudly ignored the teamorders.
      Back then it was Webber’s rights to go against those teamorders (with only 2 laps remaining) but last weekend it was the most sensible decision to deploy the teamorders in just the second race of the year with more than 1/4 of the race remaining.

      The hatred of the teamorders depend on which driver/team/nationallity is the beneficiary of those teamorders.

      If Mansel was the beneficiary then it was ok, if Patrese then not.
      If it was Alonso against fisichella 2006 (or as long as he was fighting Schumacher) then ok.
      If it was Alonso against Hamilton (Monaco 2007) then absolutly not.
      If it was Damon Hill against R.Schumacher (1999) then yes.
      If Vettel is the beneficiary and it’s the last race of the year like in 2012 then not but if it’s Webber in the second race of the year then yes!!!
      If it was m.Schumacher then Never.
      If it was Roseberg then not but now that it’s Hamilton then no problem.
      If it’s Ferrari then not if Mclaren then Wait a minute, Mclaren never use teamorders in the first place, do they?
      I wish people could make up their minds ieder to hate or like or ignore the T.O always.

      1. The question of team orders depends on very specific circumstances. You cannot generalise because the situations and ramifications are different. It depends not just on the team but on where the rival cars are.

        1. I agree totally on this one, It depends on which situation, i think it was more justified when they asked Webber in Silverstone 2011 to maintain the gap with only 2 laps remaining, though not only Webber but also the media were all against it but this time with 14 laps to go in just the second race of the year the same media find it very natural to follow those orders. That’s what i mean by calling this a collective memory and dubble standard.

      2. You are then in a terrible spot my man then. Since TO was good when Vettel wanted Webber out of the way and bad only few laps later when it meant he has to settle for a second spot.

        If that doesn’t convince you that circumstances do matter then I do not know what will.

      3. McLaren definitely do, they’re just very good at it so they don’t seem to poke the audience in the eye with it.

  128. Hi Joe,
    Can’t disagree that Seb was out of order & crossed the line yesterday but wondered your thoughts on the following:
    A) Mark admitted to ignoring team orders “4 or 5 times” during the “Maintain the Gap” incident at Silverstone 2011. Why do you think no one in the press and fan community spoke ill of that? Do you think, like I do, Webber would have hit more praise than criticism had he of been able to have taken the lead?
    B) Do you think that Webber was following team orders/instruction or acting in the teams interests when he raced Seb to the first corner in Brazil with a WDC at stake? Perhaps more pertinently, do you think Seb thought it was anti-his efforts for the WDC?

    1. I wonder what kind of arrangement Webber had with his manager Flavio for Brazil’12? Remember the guy who put Nelson Piquet Jr under duress to crash in Singapore’08?

  129. is this F1 or pre-school ? C’mon, i do not believe for one moment that any Team Head would bring their driver into the pits to make a point if they are not only leading the race but have the best chance of a Championship repeat. I’m sick of the drivers having to hold hands. Vettel will do it again, Webber needs to grow some and the rest of us need to watch some real racing ….. and yes, I’m a girl !!!!

    1. If you had jumped on the bandwagon then you had proven that you understand a lot about f1, be careful don’t think by yourself let others to think for you.
      You don’t understand much about f1 if you don’t agree with everything that you read in f1 media.

        1. You have been putting your opinion on this matter as the only view and the center of the reality and at the same time you are belittling the opposite opinions.
          I don’t think you will find it fair if others talk the same way about your opinion. You have written your opinion and now should try to defend it by bringing more balanced views and facts instead of only belittling our opinions in this manner.

          1. I don’t think you fully understand the concept of this blog. I give my opinion. I don’t HAVE to justify it to you or to anyone else. I base my opinion on the experience of 30 years activity in motorsport and more than 400 consecutive Grands Prix, at which I have unusually good access to the people who make F1 happen. This does not make me a genius, but I have a pretty decent idea about how and why things happen. I always try to look at things in as dispassionate a way as possible and my goal is always to entertain and inform. I do give fans the opportunity to express their feelings, unless they are rude or disrespectful and I think I am pretty patient. If you want more than that then you may have to look elsewhere.

      1. “You don’t understand much about f1 if you don’t agree with everything that you read in f1 media.”

        What? Does that mean in order to understand F1, I would have to agree with everything in F1 media? That makes no sense.

        1. I was trying to be sarcastic, Sorry if i failed.
          I am all for independent thinking based on what we see/hear/and read from the race and the media. You can have different opinions without needing to put your own view as the only and the center point of the reality. The true is Webber and Vettel both have ignored T.O a few times but the reaction of the media is been different, i guess most german media support Vettel as the most media in Spain supports Alonso and so on. But we should try not to get blind by all the national feelings and interests which unfortunately most of the media lives from that.

    2. I really get annoyed by all the comments (apologies Jan for using you as an example) saying either Vettel is a racer so he decided to race, this isn’t nursery, how can overtaking be bad etc. and those who say “you have to be bad to be a true champion.”

      To the first argument – the same Vettel cried to have “too slow” Webber removed from his path earlier because… he couldn’t overtake him. Not very racer-like.

      To the second crowd – to be a True Champion “how” matters just as much as all the records scored. Maybe that is why there wasn’t one such champion in the F1 in a very long time.

      Bottom line – Vettel acts childishly by saying “he didn’t hear” the TO (my kids say “it wasn’t me” all the time) and cynically by interpreting TOs only how they benefit him.

      Side note – I undertand Joe your position on the TO ban – but aren’t you afraid that by not having it banned (even if it is not enforced) we are opening an alley to all “No.1 drivers” to ask for their partners being removed from their path? We had two examples like that this weekend and I am afraid that this was only a beginning.

  130. Three observations come out of yesterday for me:

    1. Vettel seems to think stats and records alone will be the measure of his greatness, but that did not make Schumacher the greatest. For many its Senna. P.S. Gilles only won 6 races but will always be considered a great.

    2. Ignoring the rights and wrongs of the team orders there is an underlying resentment towards Vettel, the majority of fans are not enjoying his success as they feel this era is being shaped by a driver who probably isn’t the best on the grid (Alonso). Martin Brundle also pointed out that Seb has an increasing image problem with fans.

    3. This will likely be a turning point for Webber like it was with Barrichello at Ferrari in 2005, when the quickest car is no longer enough.

  131. If F1 is a team sport but each team has two drivers, then shouldn’t each driver have one dedicated team member who is the ONLY one who talks to the driver while they are racing ? It could be their engineer … the point is to establish that the team is the independent main order but the racers are racing each other. For example if one driver tells the engineer: X is too slow tell him to get out of the way all the engineer could do would be to snort or laugh out loud. Two independent sides of the garage! However, If a team order comes thru and the driver does not obey it, then not only the driver, but also the “enginner” or whomever he is and the driver’s crew would get a heavy financial penalty from the team the money going to charity.

  132. I’m surprised that some folks can’t see the difference between this event and other events when team orders have been ignored.

    The “boys will be boys, and racers will race” attitude typically comes up when the guy in P2 is told to not challenge the man ahead of him. The target of such orders is the 2nd guy. The act of ignoring that kind of order introduces competition (and its risks) when the team doesn’t want it.

    What’s different here is that team orders were aimed at both men equally, not primarily at the chaser. Not only Vettel but also Webber were instructed to slow down (as the team’s primary enemy was thought to be the tires). Because Webber complied with orders to reduce his car’s competitiveness, Vettel’s actions did *not* introduce competition. Rather, he used his teammate’s compliance with team orders as an opportunity to stab him in the back.

    In other words, the typical case is about 2 guys racing. This case was not about 2 guys racing; it was about 1 guy taking advantage of another who was following orders to turn down his engine’s performance profile.

    Bottom line: While you can make a case that the more typical examples involve a fair fight, there was nothing fair about what happened in KL. Instead, it was a case of one man punching a teammate who had one hand tied behind his back.

  133. One thing that seems clear is that Pirelli’s strategy presented the situation which Vettel abused. Ample evidence was provided in the radio transmissions that told Webber what lap times to hit. Traditionally, that kind of order is more apt for Le Mans than for F1. It will be interesting to see if this mess causes Pirelli to back off a bit from a strategy that, according to Webber, has drivers driving at 8/10’s.

    I am not saying Pirelli should “cave to demands”. I am saying it might be time to ask if Pirelli has taken their useful and constructive strategy a bit too far. (I don’t know the answer, but I do think it’s a proper question.)

    Re: targeted lap times, the ability to hit them is harder for me to fathom than is the arguably less complex task of a guy just going as fast as he can. In the case at hand, Webber was told to adjust his speed by 1 or 2 tenths of a second… on a 3.5 mile lap. Stop and think about that.

    I understand that some drivers are better suited for endurance racing than for F1. What I cannot understand is how a driver can be precise when it comes to modulating such very tiny slices of time over 3.5 miles… especially while dealing with traffic, changing car weight and tire grip, etc., etc. Over that length of track, I would think it a Herculean (or Spock-ean) task to be able to modulate in full 1-second increments. Being able to do so at the precision of tenths of a second strikes me as downright impossible… except for the fact that good drivers can indeed do it.

  134. Two things about this incident: 1.what an amazing amount of response on all the f1 sites with most opinion against Vettel and pro Webber and 2. My respect for this blog has grown immensely if not logarithmically.
    Well done Joe and Go mark.

  135. Seems to me that this childish act could put an end to Red Bull’s ability to issue team orders and make them stick this year and, if the points race is close, then team orders will be much more important later than they are now. Surely this will be the last year of Webber’s run at Red Bull, so what’s the downside for him? Somehow I am reminded of Mario Andretti’s comment about Kevin Cogam over an completely different incident at Indianapolis. As I recall he said, “This is what happens when you have children doing a man’s job up front.”

  136. A point that seems to have been missed by many is that when Vettel closed on Mark – and Mark still believed that he would not be overtaken, Mark lost the ability to manage the gap.
    So it all comes down to the Team’s authority. Because, if Mark returns to F1, and Vettel is not convincingly punished, then Mark would be under no obligation to obey team orders either…
    So what is an appropriate punishment?
    John Watson suggests a one race ban. A more imaginative solution is to require Vettel to wave Mark past until Mark has accrued an additional 14 points. This would be very public, but would not harm Red Bull in the Constructors Championship.
    Another interesting option would be to demote him to the junior team for 3 races and promote young Ricciardo in his place. We would then have the Australian National Team operating for the first time in F1.
    It would be nice to get rid of those stupid bulls and have a couple of boxing kangaroos in their place, wouldn’t it?

  137. F1 is like other businesses…Vettel is able to bring titles to RB, he is young, and doesn’t cost so much to RB in comparison to the 3 others top drivers (LH, FA, KR).
    Do you really thing that the team want to put itself in a position to loose him?

    The risk/return will not be good for RB. A lot to loose, and what to win ??

    When you see the performance trend of McLaren and Mercedes after the move of LH… If SV had a team mate able to win the Championship, it would perhaps be different, but I dont think that RB will take any risk. They are more in a situation were they expect him to sign a new contract for 3 years..

        1. In Malaysia 1999 Schumacher was ordered to let Irvine pass for the Championship. In Indianapolis Schumacher let Barrichello pass by his own free will, as a kind of payback for the Austria 2002 win. The Ferrari team were not informed beforehand and were kind of surprised to see the drivers swap positions. In Japan 1991 Senna kind of felt he owed Berger something, because Berger had often not attacked Senna, for example in Belgium, where Berger sat behind Senna when he could overtake easily after Senna’s car suffered some gremlins that slowed him down considerably. There were other races too when Berger had the faster car/driver combination but didn’t attack Senna because Senna was McLaren’s bet for the Championship. So in the closing stages Senna asked Dennis over radio if he should switch position with Berger and Ron said “yes”. Senna obeyed and duly let Berger by.

      1. True. Ayrton said later he would have loved to seal the third title with a win but he had to give it to Berger in exchange for the support in the title fight he received during the season from Gerhard. And Ron told them to exchange places, of course. Btw Schumacher did something similar when he gave back the Austria 2002 win to Barrichello in Indy 2002, that happened even without his team instructing him.

  138. A most sensible and considered blog piece Joe.

    Those defending Vettel and saying his actions were the right thing for his championship are as equally out of touch with the real world. The man is employed by the team to perform for the team and deliver results for the team.

    If your employer told you not to sign a sales deal because there wasn’t any profit in it, but you did it anyway to secure your bonus you’d be fired for gross misconduct. I don’t see any difference in that scenario to this Sunday. It was totally out of order.

    Horner comes out looking almost as poorly. A difficult situation for him but he doesn’t now appear to be a strong leader.

    1. Perhaps more to the point, if you disobeyed a direct order from your employer and in doing so put yourself and a colleague in physical danger as well as gambling on company profits, you’d be sacked and out the door so fast you’d be wearing a neckbrace for months.

  139. Although I don’t agree whats written in Jan’s post I do agree it all sounds a bit Nursery. All the drivers apologising etc. I think Vettel should have grown a pair and just said ‘I want to win, i want to win the Championship so I did what i did’ yes it wouldn’t make things better between him and Webber but he would have a better image from him being honest.
    I never even thought of Horner being in a bad position till Jo mentioned it – I can’t see how he can resolve this as i see no way of him being able to control Vettel.
    Lets hope it continues as we all love a bit of love and hate in the pitlane…

    I do think the tyres are creating and destroying good racing in one go. If they can make any tyre they want lets have tyres that can be thrashed the whole race but have less pace and a tyre with amazing pace that disintigrates. Lets also have the teams choose the compounds they want and when they use them. Obviously restricted to only two compounds and limited in number….anyway off topic

  140. Horner didn’t tell Seb to give the position back because he didn’t really want him to and it gives Seb a way out. It can be spun that Seb didn’t understand that the Team had instructed him not to pass Webber and that he thought Horner was referring to him pushing the car too hard and possibly breaking it.

    If Horner had instructed him to give the position back and he didn’t then Horners position would be untenable.

  141. Joe said “Unless Sebastian can do something to right the wrong he has done in more than nominal fashion he is now forever going to be seen as unscrupulous.” – I wonder what that could be (and whether he would ever do it on his own initiative or because the team tells him he must). Should, for example, Red Bull say that IF they get into another one / two lead with Vettel leading, he MUST let Mark take the win? Also, I’d suggest that they made this public. However, from what I’ve seen of Webber he may actually be too decent a guy to accept this, but I am racking my brain to see how they could come up with anything else meaningful! Any suggestions anyone?

    1. A few regulars and I on another US F1 blog, have already discussed this question of ‘Restitution Options”. Most bloggers like mine the best:
      ——————————–
      “What action should be taken”
      Simple. Webber gets a free kick at Vettel’s junk when he isn’t looking…

      Quite a fitting recourse. It’s much like mugging someone on the track when their assured “Multi-21″is in play, and their engine map is turned down. JF
      ——————————-

  142. Christian Horner has taken a lot of flack from Joe Saward in his article and it’s comments. Joe even reports another team manager disingenuously stating “that if Vettel had been his driver, he would have called him into the pits just to make the point that it is the team, rather than the driver, who calls the shots”.

    Be honest and try to put yourself in Christian’s shoes. He runs a team that consists of a triple world champion likely on his way to yet more championships, a car designer / aerodynamicist who could be regarded as the best ever to ply his trade in the sport, and the personal envoy/representative of the almighty owner of the team for which said team is but just another tool in his marketing empire. You (Christian) are the expendable body in this equation. Would anyone in this position really cut off Dietrich’s nose to spite his face? Do you really want to be unemployed next week?

    Horner’s actions and behavior appear to show him following a balance between running a team in pursuit of double world championships and supporting Vettel in his quest to win the driver’s world championship. Its a fine line and he doesn’t hold all the power in the relationship. Nevertheless it is a relationship with a particular balance that can and has produced the sought after world championships.

    One of the biggest values I think Horner contributes to the team is that of absorbing and deflecting all the big ego’s and individual power present in the team so that they can retain focus on winning races and world championships rather than self combusting. Just try and imagine how long Red Bull Racing would have lasted had Christian Horner been the identical twin of Helmut Marko or an iron fisted general hell-bent on obedience above all else.

    Joe, it’s about time you cut Horner some slack. Has RBR not won double world championships for the last three years?

    1. Not at all. Horner did not do what a strong manager would do and make his authority felt. Thus he has no authority. End of story.

      1. Or he is not allowed to have any (agree completely with your muppet remark). He as well is employed with a marching order. It might even be in his contract. End of story!

  143. It was reported in some parts of the Aus media that Horner warned Webber to consider his future at RB & F1 in general after being passed. As this incident seems to have brought to the surface the bad blood that has existed between Vettel & Webber since the Turkey crash, it will be interesting to see if Webber may decide it’s better to die on his feet then live on his knees at RB? My view is that the short term points gained by passing Webber may come back to hurt Vettel latter in the year.

      1. Having watched a replay of the race, the broadcaster made comment on returning from an add break that whilst away Webber had been warned to consider his future. I took this to mean that he was warned against not following the team orders to turn down his engine mapping, etc.
        Sorry, I didn’t mean it to come across that Webber wouldn’t race in China.

        1. No worries Mate. Thought it was in the broader media you heard it.. I was trying to make the point that the Aussie media (excluding the specialist stuff) doesn’t really do much of a job on F1.. At least you are here though where you will see some sense.

  144. Although I don’t agree with Vettel taking matters into his own hands, I don’t think Webber has much of a leg to stand on either given his antics at Silverstone 2011. Even more so after his comments regarding karma when speaking of Lance Armstrong…

    When crossing the line for the chequered flag, Webber moves across to the far side as far away from the pit-wall as possible, not acknowledging or wanting to celebrate with them – obviously angry at his team. A few seconds later he then swerves at high speed dangerously close to a slow moving Vettel almost chopping his nose off (not shown on world feed). Clearly showing he’s angry at Vettel.

    I’d be interested to know that at the time, did he think that Red Bull gave him a false order to turn down the engine/save tyres and hold position, or that Vettel broke team orders? His actions immediately after race finish would suggest both but that’s not logical unless he thinks Vettel broke team orders but wouldn’t be punished for it (as mentioned on the podium). Either way, he seemed to feel hard done by and not trusting of his team and/or team-mate.

    And as Joe said, if he feels that Red Bull favour Vettel then he’s in the wrong place. But he remains at Red Bull since it’s his best chance at a title so that is the price to pay for having that potential.

  145. There may well be a lot of media interest from non-specialist outlets, but not all of it is especially complementary… it’s a bit depressing that F1 has given itself another black eye in the mainstream press.

  146. First of all, I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I absolutely enjoy your writing. I appreciate what you do here Joe – this is all coming out of your free time just for us fans. This is my first comment so I’ll get on with it:

    My mind is a bit fuzzy (like a lot of other readers it seems) about the Silverstone incident. I tried looking it up but there are conflicting opinions (and facts) out there – is it possible for you to do a post that compares this incident with the rest and why this is different? Maybe even a comparison between other team mates in the past who were in similar situations?
    I apologise if all this is too much to ask. Thanks again!

    1. I see no problem at Silverstone in 2010, 2011 or 2012. In the first event Vettel outqualified Webber thanks to having a wing that was not available to Mark. But at the start Webber had a better getaway. Vettel tried to push Mark into backing off in the first corner but had to back off himself and as a result he snagged wheels with Lewis Hamilton and got a puncture. There were no team orders involved.

      In 2011 Webber finished behind Vettel so I am not sure why anyone would think that Webber broke any team orders. I believe he did as he was told and stayed in position without a fight.

      In 2012 Webber qualified second to Vettel’s fourth. Sebastian made a poor start and damaged his front wing endplate and lost places. He made them back but finished behind Webber. I do not believe any team orders were involved.

      1. thanks for clearing it out for me especially with yer blog buzzing with so much activity at the moment.. Much appreciated.

        good luck with the the visa btw

  147. Joe – unfortunately I don’t have access to your “Business of motorsport” trade paper. However, I would be interested to hear what you think RBR’s sponsors would think of the increasingly negative perception of the team’s actions and win at all costs mentality?

    After all, we saw Renault exit their team after Crashgate. Whilst it may not be at that level yet, the aim of the team is to sell more fizzy drinks and indirectly Infiniti Clios.

  148. I don’t necessarily agree with Vettel’s actions, but considering Mark’s actions on track in Brazil nearly cost him the WDC last year, this could be easily argued as payback. Yes, I know the team is structured in his favour, yes it must be galling to be in Mark’s position, but Brazil last year should have been made much easier for Vettel (by Mark) – and I was hoping for Alonso to win.

    What’s very interesting is that RB had instilled team orders in favour of Mark, and they were really displeased that Seb disobeyed.

    1. Not so much “team orders in favour of Mark” as “team orders to cement the 1-2 they wanted”. If they’d gotten on the radio to both drivers with 15 laps to go and said “right boys, engines to full, race each other to the end” then both cars would have torn their tyres to shreds and Hamilton and Rosberg would have collected a 1-2 for Mercedes.

      Which is precisely what will happen next time if Vettel doesn’t learn his lesson.

      1. Yes, you’re right. Just that in this instance the order was for Mark’s benefit, which I found interesting. Also interesting is that obviously Seb found it so interesting that he couldn’t believe his ears .. hence the confusion ;-p

  149. Reading all of the above comments, there are only two mentions I can see of Villeneuve-Pironi. I know it was 31 years ago, but the utter tragedy of a wronged driver in almost identical circumstances meeting his maker at the very next race is chilling. Mark is tougher than that and won’t let it get to him that way, but we have been here before and it ended so sadly.

  150. Great article. Two amateur thoughts on the race, one for RB and one for MAP.

    It’ll be interesting to see how RB puts this right. If they do. SV was offering a slightly weak apology with a bit of a fib about not really understanding the orders, but I thought it was clear from his body language and facial expression that he knew that he’d created problems within the team, with his fans and public persona. A great cost for seven tainted points.

    Horner revealed little ire in terms of body language or words regarding how he felt about the situation. His critique of SV’s disobedience was fairly meek, but I’ve only seen him in the BBC interview and not watched all televised content. my interpretation was that it was the result he wanted, but not the way he wanted it. And it undermined his authority a great deal, which seems to be a bigger problem for him and his public persona than anything else.

    It’s fair to assume (understatement) RB will not want to maximise their chances of getting another double championship, so banning SV from a race as punishment, as suggested in some articles, would seem highly unlikely to say the least, in my opinion.

    The obvious thing RB can do without hurting the team is to put SV on the naughty step for a couple of races, being a little offish with him in public, showing the world how much he regrets his actions in Malaysia in interviews and swap positions in the next couple of races when they’re leading one-two with a guaranteed 1-2 victory and SV is ahead. Problem solved, kind of. But at least points neutralised and if SV wins a fourth Championship it would be tainted by stolen points.

    While I wouldn’t bet against it happening in the next couple of races, there’s no guarantee. SV might win some races, MW might win some races, but they could be several positions apart. What happens if the first opportunity to swap a SV1-MW2 is with only a few races to go? I think it would be better PR for both RB and SV to jeopardise SV’s championship if he were ahead on points in the driver’s championship at that particular moment.

    Too long a post, so briefly: lots of people have said they’ve never seen such a downbeat top 4. I didn’t think Rosberg was downbeat at all. He was frustrated on the radio, but I thought he was pretty pleased. He has a big task in matching and beating Hamilton. And he knows how much that would mean for his stock as a driver compared to anyone else he’s beaten before. And while he hasn’t beaten him once yet in qualifying or a race, he seems like a man who believes he can and has measured up to Hamilton’s pace very well so far overall I think. Exciting.

  151. Found Marko’s comments about Mercedes interesting, saying that they are a team with a clear No.1 whist Red Bull aren’t. Think it was a futile effort to deflect some attention from Vettel, perhaps shows he was a little rattled?

  152. Red Bull have said they’ll deal with this behind closed doors… Since both drivers have performance related pay, I assume the team will split the pay between the drivers, or give Webber the win bonus, which if Vettel graciously agrees to, would go some way towards doing the right thing.

    I don’t see what else Vettel could do to make this up to Webber. I certainly hope you don’t mean by gifting him a result on the track? When Schumacher gifted the Indianapolis GP win to Barrichello in 2002 – to make up for team orders at the Austrian GP – it seemed entirely pointless to me, it just reeks of result fixing. Is a driver ever truly happy with a race win like that? It’s a record-books-only win; a token fact. It’s a blot on the sport that those two race wins still stick out in my mind (because they’re both wrong) whilst many more recent results have faded.

    In this case, I can empathise with them both. A lot went on in the heat of the moment. Vettel it seems was unable to control his disappointment at missing out on taking the lead after his last pitstop – it was so close! And so exciting to watch. Exactly what I tune in to see. I really enjoyed their battle too, although it’s sullied by knowing they were both instructed to back off.

    The sad thing for Webber is how rare this opportunity to win was – his first chance since the British GP last year. He must have been ecstatic to be leading after the last pitstop, especially because it could not have been closer, believing that the race was won and winding down to a nice boring formation finish.

    But if he has to chalk it up as another defeat, at least he has the perfect excuse, and has let the world know it, at every opportunity. He showed his middle finger to Vettel after the pass, he swerved in front of him on the pit straight on the slowing down lap, he disappeared and initially refused to take to the podium, he sat and glowered at Vettel in the cooling down room, he moaned to Martin Brundle in the interviews, and he made a point of spraying his champagne over the crowd, away from Vettel. (And you say that Vettel has the “the odd petulant outburst”!)

    F1 is all about trade-offs now, trading speed for mechanical durability, false economies, limited budgets forcing choices between spending on one area or another. Vettel has traded in some reputation points for some drivers championship points, and Webber’s done everything possible to rub it in. He’s certainly got our attention. He’s got the world watching the team. At all press conferences over the next few races now every variation of the “does Red Bull favour Sebastian?” question will come up again and again and again. Webber lost a win, but he’s gained a lot of attention and sympathy, and some control over his teams narrative.

    1. If Seb had taken the lead with undercut in the final pit stop we would now be having a similar but different discussion about RBR driver conflicts.

      I would wager MW would have been just as aggrieved.

  153. Unfortunately this spat has give the media a way to write stories without having to force them to look hard at today’s F1 flaws. Perhaps it will sell newspapers and increase blog comments and maybe even sell some tickets short term but today’s F1 is a far cry from being a true sporting event. If this rivalry had not occurred the main theme of reporting would have been about shoddy tires and the inability to defend against DRS. Hopefully the spotlight will return to the real issue of exposing the fakery of today’s F1. At least Webber used his soapbox to focus on the failings of the tires.

  154. Curiously, How any of Seb;s wins or perhaps championships are because Mark followed orders to hold station in a race during the last phase?

    the answer to that then starts to draw a picture on a drivers true talent vs the strategy put forward on raceday.

  155. 5 F1 drivers at a “Great Sportsmanship” dinner party – Webber, Barrichello, Kubica, Button and Massa + 5 F1 drivers at a “Last Piece is Mine”dinner party – Vettel, Schumacher, Alonso, Senna and Prost.

    Both would be interesting.

      1. I think he is implying the second table could be named the ‘multiple World Championships’ table. The former could be called the ‘one, but not most, can win a Championship if it is handed to them on a platter’.

        1. But at which table would you find Fangio, Clark, Hill the Elder, and Ken Tyrrell’s edition of Stewart?

  156. I have a feeling that that Horner’s words “This is silly, Seb. Come on!” – really meant “Seb, don’t try risky overtaking moves in the corners – do it on the straights”.

    As for Marko, he is probably annoyed with Horner for not being clear – and for having team orders.

    Horner has been made to look a fool here. And he has ambitions of becoming the next Bernie ? Don’t make me laugh !

  157. Things a good driver manager will teach a young talent just entering Formula One.

    – Every F1 driver has one main rival. All the other drivers are your secondary rivals. Emphasis on rivals.
    The name the teams, media and sport use for yor main rival is ‘teammate’ and is the name you will always use as well, while you will never forget his true identity is as your main rival. The seondary rivals are called competitors.

    – You must defeat your main rival at all costs, in every situation, under every circumstance. There are no exceptions to this singular truth. Your career and your success in Formula One depend directly upon your success in defeating your main rival.

    – When you can consistently defeat your main rival, regardless of what team you are in, however lowly or lofty, your career trajectory trends upwards. If you fail in this singular objective, your career trajectory trends downwards.

    – You are in an individual sport. Your team’s management are in a team sport. When you consistently defeat your main rival you gain the advantage of the team management’s “team sport” attitude. Conversely you will suffer the disadvantage of this attitude.

    – Your only true team mates are your side of the garage. They win and loose, rise and fall with you. They are in a team sport and their team is you.

    – In order to defeat your main rival, you must be able to be quicker than him. However, ultimately you must be able to gain the upper hand on him and his team psychologically. You must be able to convince your team’s management that you are the dominant driver. The better bet.

    – Apart from pace and racecraft, you do this by distinguishing yourself as the driver more likely to achieve individual success. You must show management that between the team’s two drivers, you are the more difficult driver to command, the one more likey to disobey a team order. Given two closely matched drivers, the team’s number one driver will be the driver that is more difficult to manage. In other words, nice guys make excellent number two’s.

    – Never compromise on your pursuit of individual comptetition. Never. Even if this means disobeying team orders. Remember that penalizing you in order to ‘break’ your independence and willpower cannot be done without penalizing themselves and the whole team. This is to your ultimate advantage. While a team would like a winning driver that is a ‘team player’, what they really desire is a bankable winner.

    – Half the field of drivers consist of number two drivers. If you are quick enough you can join the other half of the field and become a number one driver. Whether you do depends on how you behave. If you can outpace your main rival AND dominate him psycologically, you have by definition attained number one driver status. You career trajectory is pointing upwards.

    This treatise is also why a team prinicipal can never make a good driver manager. There is an inherent and insurmountable conflict of interest.

    In Malaysia we got to see direct competion between main rivals and the discrepancy between this and team mangements’ pursuit of team sport. We saw one driver follow this canon to perfection and we got to see one team’s management impose team sport management. Mark and Nico really and truly are nice guys.

    1. The other rule you have forgotten is that every race driver has a boss. Unless he runs his own team. And you obey the boss. Thinking you are more important than the team is not a good idea. Ask World Champions Nigel Mansell and Damon Hill what happens when you start thinking that way.

      1. It’s delicious to imagine what FW’s response would have been if Vettel was his driver. Mansell and Hill just got a little stroppy at contract time, not in the middle of a race…

  158. Joe, I don’t agree with you here, but I like the way you’ve stated it. I do think you’re right about Sebastian emulating Schumacher, but in the final analysis Seb has three WDCs and Webber has none and the reason for that isn’t just that the team favors him. Webber just isn’t a champion at this level.

    1. Be that as it may, winning in this way will stain a great career. As another poster rightly said: does one mention Didier Pironi without thinking that he cheated Gilles Villeneuve out of victory at Imola in 1982? That says it all.

      1. Very true. Imola ’82 defined Pironi’s career in the most negative way, irrespective of his previous performances.

      2. The reason Pironi is forever associated with the Imola farce is not truly down to the incident itself, though, is it? Had Villeneuve lived post Belgium, and the further tragedy that befell Pironi himself in Germany not occured, it would not be such a big deal.

          1. I can’t agree Joe. An accompanying tragedy always puts a different spin on things. Shakespeare knew that.

        1. ‘Had Villeneuve lived post Belgium, and the further tragedy that befell Pironi himself in Germany not occured, it would not be such a big deal.’

          ……….but he didn’t live; so, yes, it was and is still felt to be a big deal. May they both RIP.

        2. No way.
          Regardless of tragedy of the following Belgian GP race at Zolder, the unsporting actions of Didier Pironi in the preceding San Marino GP at Imola would be very much remembered.

          Had Gilles Villeneuve not died the very next race, the civil war inside Ferrari during 1982 would undoubtedly rivalled the Jones vs Reutermann row in 1981 at Williams (Reutermann ignoring team orders on Jones). Everyone would likewise remember how the war started. ie. The underhanded, unsporting behaviour of one team mate upon another.

          Didier Pironi’s legacy would still be tainted ‘just the same’ – perhaps even more so if alternative history for a 1982 SF row was given the chance to be a year long fight, no team orders obeyed, and the team-mates gloves off. JF

  159. Is it normal, this early in the season, to have two top teams order their drivers not to race, when the Constructor points haul would have been the same either way?

    How much of this schizophrenia is a product of the tire engineering? How much of it is a product of the lax response to the “Fernando is faster than you” incident? I understand team orders, #1 and #2 drivers, etc. But is it naive to expect teams to let a little racing take place, at least this early in the season?

    1. It is normal and has been for many a year that after final stops are done, drivers are to stop racing. This has been standard fare in F1 for many years.

      Sunday was a little different though. Why? because Vettel was given the first final pit stop so that the team could cover off Hamilton from an undercut on Vettel.

      As soon as Vettel had first pit stop, Webber had lost his earnt advantage and the team advised their drivers to call it a day.

      This is nothing to do with the championship, this is standard team etiquette. One which Webber has yielded to MANY times in the past.

      I am baffled at how little people seem to know about F1. You lot, reading Joe’s Blog, should surely know a lot more than you seem to demonstrate!

      1. Exactly Andrew.

        All the Vettel fanbois are quite happy to overlook the issue that the team used Webber’s rightful last pit-stop priority (team etiquette: leading man gets first pit-stop priority), to help Vettel stay ahead of both Mercedes, who were threatening him from near behind. Once Vettel was gifted by ‘team strategy’ the 4th pit-stop priority undercut to help him secure 2nd place and the team score maximum WCC points, then the team order for “Multi 21” (hold station) was a ‘code of sportsmanship’ conduct to ensure Webber got the payback for helping Vettel out **.

        Vettel then proceeded to use this undercut to gain a full 4 seconds on Webber (and the chasing Mercs), leap onto MW’s gearbox, and then pass MW (mug him) when Webber was already following the “Multi 21” team order under the understanding Vettel would respect the end to racing for the day.

        That is a pretty low, and very non-sporting behaviour from Vettel.

        There is little worse one can do in a Team Sport environment that this, short of dangerously sabotaging a team mates car, or purposefully spearing them off-track. A real underhanded Didier Pironi act.

        [** and before any fanboi protest: Vettel got the 1st pit-stop priority as the leading car in race, and he chose to go to slicks too early when the pit asked his opinion. Webber later then made his 1st pit-stop at the point he and the team thought strategically best. Nothing underhanded about that scenario. You use tyre/track condition information, as you get it, within a team to your Team’s advantage overall.]

        Jack Flash

    2. Further, the teams are still trying to learn the tyres and their degradation. If RBR had allowed Mark and Seb to race wheel to wheel for 5 laps chances are both cars might have finished 5-6 and after cliffing on their tyres. This is a further demonstration why Ross advised the Mercedes boys to finish in the order they did. He would have LOVED to watch a team battle at the front.

  160. While the fans like to think the driver’s championship is the reason millions of dollars are spent in F1, those who spend the money are interested primarily in the manufacturer’s championship. This is a manufacturer’s championship and the drivers are only part of the equipment. Has Red Bull won championships because of Adrian Newey or Vettel. Put Vettel in a Torro Rosso today and see how it works out.

  161. All drivers race to win and if the guy in front is slower you pass him if you can. Seb has 3 world championships and rightly deserves no 1 status in the team. Red Bull’s marketing ethic and business strategy has been to sponsor risk taking on the edge sports and events and to imagine that F1 drivers can be/should be controlled from the pits like some remote robot is ridiculous. If I was Vettels advisor and Red Bull do not support him I would have his initials on the Ferrari option for 2014. Alonso would have none of it and walk and Ferrari would operate their usual no 1 and and no 2 driver rankings and have non of this nonsense.

        1. Schumacher at the first Malaysian GP is a good counterpoint to your suggestion here, Voyager. Schumi didn’t have many instances where he was even required to support team orders (usually they were in his favour and he awaited the position to be gifted to him).

          But, on the few opportunities he did have, he played the team game. As ruthless/crude/unsportsmanlike as he may have been towards pretty much everyone in F1, he was selfish and intelligent enough to know that pissing your own team off, embarrassing the guys who build your car, make your food, pay your wages, etc., is an idiotic thing to do.

          For the record, I’m a huge Vettel fan, and there are few bigger fans of MS than me… but to me, the issue here is Vettel’s insubordination. RBR needs him enough to let it slide, but other teams will consider their options carefully.

          One more note: Seb should learn that racing drivers, even ones as talented as he is, are very much replaceable whereas other elements in the team (e.g. Newey) are not. You’ll find that a team with Newey on board (or Brawn, for that matter) will generally have its pick of drivers, while a Newey or Brawn won’t deal with drivers that piss them off and disrespect them. Michael knew this.

          1. You think Ferrari, Mercedes or McLaren would not sign Vettel after Malaysia if they had a seat available? What Vettel did in Malaysia was the perfect display of a driver’s hunger for winning. Team bosses love that kind of spirit. I would almost bet that Vettel will replace Alonso at Ferrari some day. The Malaysia actions will not stop Ferrari to employ Vettel. I bet.

  162. I do wonder when the team was aware that Vettel was up to something.. Considering at the end of the race Vettel was told to coast, one has to assume that he had his engine turned up higher in order to make up the 4 seconds (I think that was about the gap between them in the last pitstop) to Mark.

  163. I honestly believe Seb felt bad after the race; however, I do not believe that he “misunderstood” team orders. This quick and senseless decision will play out through the 2013 season, possibly negatively for Red Bull. But Seb is a ruthless and very quick driver, so it may not affect him winning another Championship, but it will affect him via the media and his fanbase. Defintiely an interesting start to the season!

    Did anyone see Hamilton though? You could tell he wasn’t the happiest either about the team orders. IMHO, it seemed that he would have let Nico through had the team given him a chance. Anyone else agree?

    1. Well Said el wehbi, I do wonder if this might have been the biggest story out of the race without the Redbull shenanigans.

  164. Interesting comments about CH. I’m guessing he’s fuming because as has been obvious all along he is pretty much powerless within the team with the charming Marko and Vettel running the show.

    1. It’s a good point. As much as Horner is a muppet, we have to ask ourselves why? Helmut Marko is the true manager of that team and Vettel is his baby. It would not surprise me if Helmut was advising Christian that any radio nonsense to give the position back would not be on. Who knows. But it certainly would not surprise me.

      The big one for me is Adrian Newey. He comes across as a very kind and ethical gentlemen. I think he saw a side of Seb on Sunday that he does not like, at all.

    2. Ah, I think this is much ado about nothing much – SV just miscalculated the reaction he got from both team and media. I don’t think he cares one jot for MW, but he does care about his image and team standing. Lets see if he lets Webber overtake him in one of the upcoming races…I bet he will.

      1. Unless it is for the lead of a race it will not mean anything. And it would be preferable if done before Vettel has secured the championship by race 12…

  165. Wow, as i write this, you have almost 300 comments. Never before did a piece of yours receive so much replies, did it?
    And here’s my 2 cents, Joe, I think you’re right, bar one thing. Webber is right to stay at Red Bull, because a. I think he doesn’t shy away from a challenge, he’s no quitter, and b. staying at Red Bull is probably the only change he will have a ever getting a title (and I think Mark was right by not switching to Ferrari, where he would face probably a worse car and an even stronger and even more favoured team mate).
    I do hope Mark will take his revenge, by winning this years title.

  166. It was slightly amusing watching Alan Jones on the Australian coverage holding back and not saying anything about his relationship with Carlos Reutemann after the Brazil 81 incident.

    1. i am not surprised about that…Alan always regarded Carlos as the replacement #2 driver for Clay Regazzoni, and said so publicly more than once that season, Whether or not that was the real contractual situation (the lead driver always likes to pretend that he is #1, the second driver likes to pretend that he has “equal equipment”), he was very unhappy when Carlos did not obey team orders at that race. I believe that Williams later fined Reutemann for his failure to obey team orders. Alan thereafter refused on principle to help Carlos in any way, despite his decision to retire at the end of the season.

      1. Yes, but many years Williams said lhat it was wrong from his team not to support Reutemann after Rio.

  167. Hi Joe
    Great and well argued comments. The Team employ the Driver to win the Constructors Champ which pays for the Driver to also try for the Drivers Champ. Vettel is following a well trodden route that does not guarantee fans, but will get him to the top (wrongly). Maybe it should be Horner who falls on his sword for not having the control ? This is after all the Top of Motorsport, and only the strongest survive …… If Horner had at least tried to ask Vettel to let MW back then he could point to the driver, i fear all the pointing will be at his inability ……

  168. Joe, thanks for the article. We can always rely on you to call it as it is with no conflict or agenda.

    Could we put the Silvertstone ’11 red herring to bed. We have film and pit comms confirming that the following happened in the instance:

    Race was on, mark closed on Seb.
    Mark looked to pass Seb under race conditions
    Seb radioed pit and said “this is silly” I.e. stop Mark.
    Pit radioed Mark and told him to “maintain gap”
    Mark responded “alright”
    Mark backed off.

    For those who want to cite Silverstone ’11 as evidence that Mark did the same as Seb, you have scored and own goal.

    Not only did Mark acknowledge and obey team orders to maintain position, the request to do so actually originated from Seb himself.

    1. “Of course I ignored the team and I was battling to the end. I was trying to do my best with the amount of conversation on the radio. ”

      F1 is the most heavily regulated contrived ‘sport’ (I still maintain it’s a business based on a flawed business model) ever. Every technical loophole is closed, every part of the car is enforced .
      Teams give team orders as to who does what and when again as they always have, so how anyone can waste energy on this non event is beyond me…

      Mark Webber has been Seb’s bitch for years,”not bad for a number 2 driiver eh?” he’s only now getting chippy because the whole world was told for sure what it already knew

      Next up: Father Christmas not real !

        1. Exactly, Joe. Mark has historically done exactly what Rosberg did – tried to show that he’s faster, probed the limits of authority a bit, but ultimately did the sporting thing and listened to his boss. Respected the unwritten rules, even.

  169. Good stuff as usual, Joe .

    A lively discussion as expected, and I’d have a lot to say about the incident like everyone else .
    However, I’m wondering why hardly anyone seems to look at the circumstances that create situations like this .
    In the past few seasons, it seemed to happen at most races that all the front running drivers get locked into their positions in the final quarter or third of the race .

    Saving fuel, tyres, engines and gearbox has always been part of racing, but with the current regulations, and the Pirelli tyre policies, I don’t see how anyone can be successful in F1 by driving hard and exciting for most of the race, much less till the end .

    In KL, RBR and Merc, to name just two teams, went into cruising mode at least a dozen laps before the flag .
    Lewis got rewarded for driving a hard race by running low on fuel, Mark got jumped by Seb at a stage when proper racing wasn’t really a viable option any more .

    While this might be anecdotal, I think it illustrates that at least tyre and fuelling regulations need to change significantly , to give back the drivers the tools to fight it out not just in the first few laps, but all through the race .

    What choice do teams have nowadays but to remote control , if they want to collect those points, or drivers who face going backwards on marginal tyres or low fuel if they choose to push just a tad too hard ?

  170. Yes SV is talented, ruthless and spoilt. We all new this already, and Malaysia did not bring more than a resounding confirmation. However, I believe CH should carry all the blame for letting it happen. He behaved like a coward, fearing to upset SV and HM in one shot. For sure Red Bull did not give him wings… or b**ls.

  171. I can see the link between Pironi, but wasn’t his name tarnished because of the tragic events a couple of weeks later? If Villeneuve had lived and won the title (which given the car seemed quite possible) then I’m sure Pironi’s actions would’ve been forgotten…

  172. Vettel’s main challenger for the title this year is Alonso, with him out of the race I think Vettel could see an extra 7 points on the board. If he beats Alonso to the WDC by 7pts or less it will probably be seen as a stroke of genius. If Mark wanted it badly enough he shouldn’t have given up, it’s likely his last season in F1 and to me this shows the difference between someone who thinks like a champion and someone who’s maybe just looking for a win. It’s the 2nd race of the season and Vettels already thinking of the last race. Spoilt brat or not you’ve gotta hand it to the kid, I love Mark to bits but if he wants to win the championship this year he’s got to impose himself on his team mate and get the team ‘on side’. Moaning about it isn’t going to help. F1 has always been ruthless and this is just another example of how the pirahna club works.

    1. Back up the truck there.

      This isn’t about Mark moaning. Everyone saw the RBR team reaction and heard the radio comments before Mark had even passed the chequered flag, let alone taken his helmet off.

      This is really about Seb versus the team – something joe makes absolutely clear abvoce. Politically Mark would be best places to play it that way.

  173. Changing tack slightly, if FIA rules permit team orders, should there be a rule which states they must be obeyed? I’m only half joking!

  174. Vettel has been out of control for a long time. His off-track antics are equally annoying: He sprays Champagne at the poor podium girls and Coulthard last season. He uses profanity on public television shows – David Letterman here in the US. He babbles on and on in post race interviews- as if we hadn’t watched the race. He is anything but cool – probably the dorkiest of the entire grid.

    I have enjoyed watching Red Bull beat Ferrari and McLaren to the WC because I like Horner and Newey! It’s an incredible upset to see an energy drinks company beat the long heritage of these other brands.

    I think both the RB drivers are douchebags- Webber should put his driving where his mouth is. Vettel should humbly and graciously take his wins – Simple as that.

    What comes up must come down. This is the season!

  175. I think we all can expect to see some retribution from Mark against Seb at the first available chance. Probably China. If Mark takes Seb off track that will still leave most of the season for the team to make up the lost points.

    Given the opportunity he’d be a damn fool not to make his point where it counts most; in the points column.

  176. Well, to paraphrase Shakespeare, Webber doth protest too much. Find a transcript of Silverstone 2011 press conference – that was the race when Webber was told to hold station behind Vettel, ignored the instructions and continued to attack. In the press conference he is unrepentant, states that he got multiple calls from the team and states that he ignored the instructions and that he is not OK with team orders. He’s built of the same timber as Vettel. Well, nearly… Vettel did rather less sulking in front of the press.

    We may not like what Vettel did, but it’s clear that Webber is no more of a team player than Vettel is. He doth protest too much, and so do we.

    1. Here is the pertinent bit of the 2011 press conference.

      (Adam Hay-Nicholls – Metro) Mark, Christian Horner has said that you
      should be fine with the team orders at the end and if you and Seb had
      raced until the end you would both have ended up in the fence. Do you
      agree with that? Was it the right call? Does this mean realistically
      that you are out of this championship?

      MW: I am not fine with it. No. That’s the answer to that. If Fernando
      retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine
      until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get
      another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best. I don’t
      want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with
      the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I
      wasn’t talking too much back. There was a lot of traffic coming to me,
      but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front.

      (Adam Hay-Nicholls – Metro) Do you remember roughly how many messages
      you had?

      MW: Probably four or five.

  177. Joe – this post is brilliant, I applaud your stance and that of DT in GP+ this week also.

    I hope that such articles capture the feeling within the paddock and of all real F1 fans; fans who remember days of real chivalry between rivals, those who risked their lives every weekend in order to win but not at ALL costs.

    Death? Acceptable.

    Cheating? Unacceptable.

    Since when did brazenly screwing over your team and team mate in front of a global audience become remotely acceptable? A team, I might add, that propelled you to 3 straight world championships that – without doubt – you wouldn’t have achieved driving for anyone else.

    It pains me to read / listen to the BS from certain pundits and media commentators that entertains anything but total condemnation of Vettel’s actions in their entirety.

    Anyone saying that Vettel showed the necessary tenacity of a true champion on Sunday is out of their mind. I believe Lance Armstrong was also willing to win at all costs… a very admirable quality.

  178. To those who wish to excuse Vettel’s behavior on the basis of Webber’s previous behavior, consider…

    1. In the end, Webber obeyed the team. Whatever his post-race comments, during the race he was just making a point, he wasn’t stealing points.

    2. Judge by the team’s reaction. Everyone at RB seemed put out by Vettel’s selfishness. I don’t know if Newey ever yells, but if looks could kill, his first post-race glance at Vettel would have been fatal. Even Seb’s main protector said the team could not tolerate this sort of thing.

    Bottom line: While Vettel thought he was entitled to do as he pleased, the rest of the team reacted otherwise. Webber’s behavior has never caused even a hint of this. Can you think of any other instance on any team when the driver’s behavior was reacted to so negatively by his own team? Perhaps Alonzo’s backstabbing stunt in the McLaren pits? Any other examples?

  179. The team boss mentioned you spoke with couldn´t have been Frank Williams? (“just to make the point that it is the team, rather than the driver, who calls the shots”) 😉 I remember Bernie Ecclestone giving Marc Surer the brush-off when Surer was coming into the pit unexpected (“You are pitting when I tell you to do – not when YOU want it to do!”). Also Carlos Reutemann could tell Vettel something about how it could be if you don´t accept “multi 12″….

  180. My view of all that went wrong on Sunday, in order of relevance/importance:

    1. Vettel disobeyed a team order.

    2. Christian Horner did not ask Vettel to return the position.

    3. Red Bull actually gave a team order this early on in the season.

    4. Webber actually complied with the order after Vettel showed he would not.

    I find it hard to enjoy the previous success of this promising young talent after Sunday. I don’t know what, if anything… will allow him to redeem himself.

    I find it curious and troubling that Horner (or anyone) did not ask the position to be handed back. It is almost as if they *knew* Seb would pass anyway and were quietly OK with it. The fact that Seb said he “misunderstood” almost makes me feel that the plan was always to manipulate the order at the end. “Multi 21” was the call… but that does not mean each driver has the same “interpretation” or “instruction” for Multi-21. I for one believe that if the call was given in the most stern manner possible… Seb WOULD have given the position back.

    I find it hard to accept the team order that Red Bull gave. I accept that they can, and in many situations should give team orders… but I feel in this particular case it was an utterly stupid order. Both drivers could, and should have been racing each other. Fans would have loved to see MW actually beat Seb for once. I belive he would have if he was given a fair chance. The only way this fair chance would have been possible is if he was not ordered to go to a different fuel map to begin with.

    I find it baffling and bizarre that Mark did not immediately switch engine maps the second he realized Seb was going for a pass. He is a MUCH better person than I would have been. If I was in Webbers position I would have thrown Multi 21 out the window and fought. I have nothing but utter respect for Webber now and supreme disappointment in Vettel.

    I wish I could shut my thoughts up right about now. Because there are just too many for this. I wish I could go back to Saturday when I still had a favorite driver.

    I am lost. Lost in a sea of disbelief and disappointment.

  181. I always find it reassuring when these things happen – when so many highly intelligent people can still mess things up as badly as a normal person like me can at work!

    Hehe! They achieve a one-two, in a car that is on the very cutting edge of physics and engineering – and somehow Red Bull have managed to hit the self-destruct button on their team! With three weeks for their rivals to stir things up even more!

    I don’t agree with what Vettel did at all – and my sympathy is entirely with Webber – but they should have just let them race.

    Outside of the Formula One paddock – I’m sorry to say this but… nobody cares about the Constructors championship. It’s just there to divide up the money at the end of the year, and to pick the best garages.

    And anyway. It is a self-correcting problem. If Mark and Seb crash into each other a couple of times, then it’s not going to take long before they realise they are jeopardising their chances in the Drivers’ Championship by being stupid.

    On a final note on the subject of us normal people versus the highly intelligent – was there anybody watching the Malaysian GP that didn’t think “that front wing on Alonso’s car is going to go under the front wheels any minute…”

    John.

    1. Ask Williams. With team orders the team lost the 1981 World Championship because Alan Jones would not help Carlos Reutemann after latter broke team orders. The team gives up on team orders and loses the title in 1986 because Mansell and Piquet took points from one another and Prost snuck through. Hence the team insists that drivers do as they are told… It is only logical.

  182. The ultimate for Mark is to win this year’s DC and stick it to Helmut Marko, if not
    he should leave this team and go to Lotus, Boullier is a fan of Mark and next year will be a clean slate for everyone with new engines and regulations.

    Maybe Kimi can take Mark’s spot at Red Bull.

  183. Who amongst us is willing to speculate that RB cut a deal with Sauber to transfer Mark for Nico and some cash….???

    – Sauber is a well funded competitive second tier team. MW could make a difference and enjoy his remaining F1 life – an important motivation to MW.
    – Nico is still young enough in his career to believe he can fight for a WC but at the same time appreciate the opportunity and do what he is told!
    – Nico will not upset SV too much as SV’s ego is big enough to believe that Nico cannot challenge. Also, both German – makes things easier!
    – RB keep the golden boy (ie SV) happy and the team can get back to winning.
    – Controversy solved without any bad blood spilled!!! RB maintain the high moral ground as they are seen to be looking after not discarding the RB team loyal MW.

    Not as silly as it first seems!!

      1. Horner’s stuck in a hard place, he has very little room to move with, he will take no further action cementing the fact that Vettel has more authority than him.
        Helmut’s hegemony still maintains status quo.

  184. The thing that I really fear about all this is that this is the kind of incident that tips off underlying tensions into an all out conflict. There have been numerous moments of needle and defiance in the RBR team for 5 years now, with a significant disparity in their direction of travel.

    All out conflict a 200mph is a scary thought and we’ve seen it before. It can’t be allowed to happen again.

  185. I can’t understand why Seb is being chastised for winning. This is a sport, and over here in the USA, sport is about winning. If Webber was so strong, then he should have stayed in front of Seb and not let him by. I doubt Webber was capable of staying out front. I work for a team in NASCAR, and there would never be any “team orders” in this sport. It is all about winning, even if it means passing your teammate. Teams here operate individually, meaning Jeff Gordon’s crew is trying to beat Jimmie Johnson’s crew, even they are both part of Hendrick Motorsports. This is one of the reasons F1 does not resonate with the USA, we are about winning, not gifting the win to another driver. I say Good for Seb for trying to win the race, that is why we watch.

    1. Your not getting the point, people are criticizing Vettel for totally ignoring specific team orders and screwing his team mate over.

      It is NOT about him winning the Malaysian GP.

    2. I suspect you would have a different opinion on the issue had Seb and Mark took each other out of the race. Winning is great but disobedience is not.

      ‘This is one of the reasons F1 does not resonate with the USA, we are about winning, not gifting the win to another driver.’
      Why do you think NASCAR doesn’t resonate with the entire world?

    3. Yeah, right. In NASCAR they only try to manufacture the entire finish. One car way out in front? No bother, being out the yellow flag.

      Besides you don’t know what you are talking about. Mark’s engine settings had been dialled down under team instruction. Seb’s were dialled up, withe even KERS in overtake mode as was clear from pit comms.

  186. Joe thanks for another insightful and excellently written piece. (I like you’re no nonsense approach re the points – counter points). It is evident that in his communication with Vettel and subsequent comments Christian Horner comes across as being weak and pathetic. Is he really the team boss? At the risk of being seen as pedantic, let me note that Shakespeare did, indeed, placed those beautiful words as well as the rest of that outstanding eulogy in the mouth of Mark Anthony. The problem is that Mark Anthony did not give that speech. The orator who gave that speech was Dion Cassius

  187. I’m a little late to the (enormously popular) comment party but Gerhard Berger gave a great interview to BBC 5live on Monday morning.

    He effectively said that nice guys win races in F1 and sometimes nice guys win championships but that nice guys are rarely selfish enough to win multiple world championships.

    He was skirting around the issue a little bit but really he ended up saying that what Vettel did was good for the sport and that had he not done it, he would regret it in his later life.

    Having said that, Gerhard was always a lecturer.

  188. Despite what he says publicly to soothe Mark Webber’s ego, I can’t believe that Christian Horner is unhappy with the result. It is clearly the best result for the team. If they wanted to hold him back out of anxiety over the tyres, then Vettell (whatever you say about him, and I personally don’t like him) simply proved them wrong. The driver is often in the best position to know about these things, and so it proved on this occasion.

    Even though he was coming from four seconds back two laps previously, it was clear that Vettell was pushing to overtake. If they really wanted him not to, they could have warned him off earlier. As it was, his last complete lap and his in-lap were very fast and his out-lap was the fastest out-lap of the race by a huge 1.6 seconds. That’s massive and he carried on at fast pace and yet still didn’t ruin the tyres. That must show that the other drivers were over-protecting their tyres and Vettell’s judgement was proved correct.

    I don’t believe that Red Bull will penalise Vettell in any way. That would just help the opposition and they’re not going to do that. He is acting penitent, and that’s as far as it will go. I think Webber will have to accept being number two, just like Massa.

    1. Your assertion that Vettel proved them wrong is unfounded. The only way it might be true is if Webber had raced Vettel until one of them either won the race or had his tires fail (or fuel tanks emptied).

      Vettel proved nothing about who was right about the tires. The only things that were proved are that Webber showed restraint while Vettel cared only about himself.

  189. Sorry, I was meaning to imply that the exchange may be at the request of MW himself….who is currently “considering his future”? To me that is possibly code to other teams to…”make me an offer I can’t refuse”! As I see it, anything is negotiable in F1 for the right price, especially one’s contract…..

  190. Thanks for a really intersting article and some great points. I disagree slightly with the idea of removing team orders being naive. Teams will continue to use them should they deem it necessary (albeit covered by flaky excuses) but it will at least minimise how often it is done. It would have been interesting to see if Mercedes could have caught up the red bulls had all four (or three taking out Hamilton form the equation) cars been pushing harder. Who knowns what woud have happened with the tyres and fuel? That would have made a more interesting last 10 laps rather than or formation finish.

    It will be interesting to see if Vettels choice will bite him back in the end as I’m pretty sure Webber won’t be there to help him should he need a wingman in the later stages of the season!

    Subsequently Webber is now my number two preferred racer for the championship (Button being my fave).

  191. It isn’t only Mark who must feel he’s been let down. All the key members of staff on Mark’s side of the garage must feel the same way, from his race engineer to all the key personnel whose remit is to deal solely with Mark’s car. Vettel has effectively told Mark’s team personnel, “my team members take precedence over yours”. I wonder how they feel at being effectively relegated to team number two. I’m sure they don’t set up Mark’s car, expecting to see their work and commitment subordinated to the team members who deal with Vettel’s car.

    And Vettel is presumably contractually obligated to respect the authority of Horner during the race. If that is the case, presumably Vettel is in breach of contract.

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