The merger between Volkswagen and Porsche, which will be completed in 2011, could result in the group taking a look at Formula 1 racing – at least that is the opinion of Matthias Müller, Porsche’s new chief executive.
Müller’s job is to significantly increase Porsche sales in the years ahead. At the moment both Porsche and Audi compete in sports car racing, but this makes no sense in the future.
“We have to discuss whether it makes better sense for one of the brands to go into LMP1, and the other brand into F1,” he said, adding that there will need to be discussion about this before any decision is made. There is an argument that the Audi brand has no real place in F1 and that if the group is going to enter Grand Prix racing, it must do so with a band such as Porsche, although it might also pick Bugatti, Lamborghini or the long unused AutoUnion if it wanted to do so. The aim, of course, is to sell more cars and so AutoUnion makes little sense as there are no cars built with that name – at least for the moment. The Bugatti brand is über-exclusive and thus is probably not a sensible brand for F1 at the moment. The Bugattis will sell themselves to collectors. The 1,000hp Veyron 16.4, which was launched back in 2005, is limited to a production run of 300, while the $2.4 million Super Sport version, which boasts 1,200 hp, will come in a limited edition of 30. In July one of these cars set a new land speed record for production cars at 268mph, driven by former F1 driver Pierre-Henri Raphanel, at the VW proving grounds at Ehra-Lessien. This will be the last of the Veyrons with plans for a four-door Bugatti Galibier in 2013, although this too is a collector’s car, similarly restricted to a run of 300. Bugatti boss Franz-Josef Paefgen hinted a few years ago that the company could take the new car racing, but the chances are that this would be a sports car programme. F1 will only be a sensible route for the brand if it moves the brand a little more into the McLaren-Ferrari segment of the market. Lamborghini is a possible brand for F1, but there is no history on which to build.
Porsche is thus the brand that makes sense in F1 (right now) as it has been involved in F1 on several occasions in the past, notably in the early 1960s when the team ran the 718 and Dan Gurney took a win at the French Grand Prix at Rouen in 1962. In the early 1980s Porsche-built TAG Turbo engines powered McLarens to a string of impressive victories, but Porsche’s own V12 project in 1991 was a disaster.
Porsche wants to use the sport to promote its technology and so it is logical for the company to enter the sport in 2013 when engine competition opens up again with a new formula, which will give newcomers the chance to compete on a level playing field with the current F1 manufacturers – if they decide to stay. The plan is for 1.6-litre turbocharged engines with energy-recovery systems, which would be perfect for Porsche.The logic is to return to the sport as an engine supplier with at least two teams, in much the same way as the current manufacturers are doing. As to which teams would be best… we will have to wait and see.
joeblogsf1 
I’d like to see Volkswagen buy Toro Rosso, and relaunch it as Lamborghini. Italian brand with an Italian F1 team it makes perfect sense.
Pinball,
But would it not still be the training ground for Ferrari engineers as Minardi has been for many years?
Lamborghini have a history in F1. It’s just short and useless 🙂
Joe, to further extend the point about Porsche entering when F1 becomes a new formula, could they be looking to Williams for that partnership?
I ask this because the 911 Hybrid that is racing in ALMS and in Europe at the moment is powered by a Flybrid developed by Williams. Is there any connection here do you think?
Williams-Porsche would be an excellent match. Williams already have some KERS deal with Porsche for road cars, right? Would be great to see the team back up the front……here’s hoping
Maybe as and engine supplier to Williams as there is already a tie up with Porsche and Williams Hybrid
This is certainly an interesting development and it would be great to have another engine manufacturer enter the sport. My hope as a Williams fan would be that the existing ties between Porsche and Williams hybrid power might lead to a collaboration producing not just an engine but a whole drivetrain that others could buy much like Force India bought the Merc engine and McLaren gearbox.
Williams’ F1 experience would benefit Porsche and partnering with a company with the resources of Porsche would certainly help Williams at the moment. Fingers crossed.
Williams is an obvious choice based on their cooperation on the KERS that is being used in the 911 GT cars.
The other one is more interesting, I’d say McLaren but its hard to imagine that McLaren would share an engine with Williams and AFAIK they will have then a contract with Mercedes.
It’s true Lamborghini don’t have an illustrious F1 heritage, but they do have some form, they supplied engines to Lotus and Larrousse in F1.
But Porsche are the obvious candidate to go racing.
I think Lambrghini built a very heavy and very slow F1 car in the late 80’s and later supplied F1 engines in the early 90’s to Minardi and Lotus?
When ( I don’t think it’s a matter of if) Porsche return to F1 in 2013 I could safely bet my left Jatz Cracker that one of the teams they supply will be Williams. Wouldn’t be surprised if a contracy has already been signed. Hulkenburg is in a great position for a good 2013 season if he stays. Any young F1 driver with any nouse should be beating a path to SFW’s door now.
Joe,
I wasn’t aware that Toro Rosso / Minardi was a Ferrari engineer training ground. That puts my Volkswagen / Lamborghini Toro Rosso buyout idea on the shelf. Can’t really have Volkswagen trained engineers being poached by Ferrari.
I would love to see Williams recover, but I was thinking the other day that I can’t remember another previously successful team that was so long in the wilderness and found a way back.
Tyrell doesn’t count as BAR only used the entry and was effectively a start-up. Although as Stoddart bought a lot of the equipment to use at Minardi, maybe Torro Rosso’s win in 2008 was Tyrell in spirt?
Red Bull (nee jaguar nee Stewart) doesn’t really count as they only had one fluke win before their particular 40 days and 40 nights.
If it’s just engines then, yes Porsche make sense, but if they want to form a team, then buying Toro Rosso and naming it Lamborghini is the only way to go. Going by their concept at the Paris show, their new cars are carbon amazements, so that’d fit in with F1 quite well. Granted though the 1.6 turbo format doesn’t quite sit with a 5.0 V12 engine.
Good point about the Minardi training school, Joe, but I think that was due to that team being so stuck for funds that a natural career ladder was formed. Ferrari took the staff because it was easy for them to tempt them across to Maranello. I’m not sure that would work quite so readily with a well funded Lambo. Especially as they would have the opportunity to do factory LMP1, Porsche Supercup, Touring cars or even rallying. That’s an opportunity you don’t really get in the Fiat empire at the moment, they mostly make cars for other teams to run.
Although obviously there’s nothing to stop a Ferrari engineer leaving and joining Audi but it’s always good for staff morale to offer some kind of career path. Also as VW keep telling the press they’d like to buy Alfa Romeo – if it were for sale – then that could be another consideration too. Though I’m not sure why Fiat would sell, only to let another team race against them.
If it’s just engines Porsche will supply, then I’d expect Williams and Redbull to get the nod. Mind you, they always used to say that Porsche is already in F1 because they have the Supercup support race, they have as much track presence they need and with cars recognisable to the customer. How times change….
@Misu
Wasn’t the talk that McLaren wanted their own engine, and the 5-year Merc exit deal was just to give them time to build up the capacity/develop one?
Zippy
Yes.
Williams and Porsche sounds like a match made in heaven.
However, just 230 km South of Stuttgart is a little town called Hinwill — perhaps that may be of interest to Porsche.
Plus, considering Red Bull’s association with VW brands across several championships, they may be a very interesting option as well.
And, why not all three: Williams, Sauber, and Red Bull?
Sir Frank is doing everything in his power to shape-up his team to be sold. He won’t miss the opportunity to sell to a German car company a second time.
I could never imagine Porsche agreeing to supply engines to McLaren, who will rapidly start to take Porsche sales away with their yet to be released road cars.
I’ll happily place a £10 bet that its Williams currently holding the cards
I cannot wait!
I just read an article that said of the 300 Veyrons built only 40 survive, a used one just went through Barrett/Jackson at 750,000 US.
Brent,
I think there must be some confusions about these cars are cars from the 1930s.
I think the idea is a good one. Porsche just showed the GT Hybrid at Petit LeMans at Road Atlanta. For Porsche to maintain it’s status as a high performance manfacturer it needs a powertrain that will meet the expectations of its’ customers and also the increasingly strigent emission standards, especially in Europe.
A small displacement powerplant with turbo and hybrid assist would be an ideal engine and could be embraced by the environmentalists.
The power output would be sufficient and the CO reduction would be a grear benefit.
I beg to differ Joe – but I think that Audi would perhaps be the more logical brand for F1 – although I suppose Ferrari would be competition they (Porsche) would like to attack (although Lamorghini – despite the derision – might be more appropriate if you were going down that path).
I am not sure that Porsche have much more to prove in racing given their illustrious history
Michael C,
You may do… but THEY don’t.
There are already a few links between Williams F1 and Porsche. For example Williams provide the Hybrid system for the Manthey Porsches that raced the 24h of the Nurburgring. Let’s wait and see! 🙂
porsche and williams = (racing)2
Actually, Audi does have a wonderful F1 pedigree — as AutoUnion, but I understand why they don’t want the modern Audi in F1: LMP1 is now that marque’s domain.
However, they do have a big bin to rummage around-in for high-octane brands to go racing with, or even dual brand, with Bentley, Bugatti, Lambo, Seat, Skoda…aside from Audi, VW and Porsche (the latter of which does make the most sense from a consumer POV).
Scania makes mostly trucks, so that would be a good fit for transporters.
Either way, with Renault, Toyota, BMW and Honda out, it would be helpful to F1’s continued health to have another manufacturer on the grid.
If Porsche enter F1 and do not immediately partner with Williams I’ll eat my hat.
Joe, from reading the interview from Porsche’s new exec, what they do not want is for their brands to be competing, which is fair enough. They would not really be competing if they were participating in different Le Mans categories (LMP1 and GT2, as they have done for many years). For Porsche to make engines for F1 would be too expensive a project and their marketing success would be limited by the quality of the team they can build for (and – lets face it – none of the top teams are in need of engines, bar for McLaren if may chose not to build a new engine, given that they have only done so once in their history and the end results are as yet unknown).
If VW does end up purchasing Alfa Romeo, as they currently seem to be intimating, that would be an obvious solution. However I’m not sure that those of us with a knowledge of motoring history would deem Alfa-Porsche a comfortable match.
Interesting to hear that there is a connection between Ferrari and Torro Rosso Joe (an official/unofficial arrangement left over from the Minardi days?). I’ve always hoped that Torro Rosso would become an Alfa Romeo ‘works’ team (stick an Alfa badge on everything, including a Ferrari engine). Alfa/FIAT seem to be making a push to make Alfa big at the moment and they’ve got an attractive selection of new cars in their showrooms, including the new Giulietta which they have high hopes for and is highly rated. Alfa too, like F1, are making a break for America in 2012!
I suppose the perfect storm to create this Alfa team would be if Ferrari wanted to take on Kubica/get rid of Massa before the end of 2012, when the latter’s contract runs out. That’s reliant on Ferrari still liking Felipe in a couple of years of course… The second seat could be taken by Fisichella to keep him race fit or someone from the Scuderia’s little publicised young driver program, which you wrote about earlier this year: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/01/29/ferraris-young-driver-plans/
It makes perfect sense to me, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time that Ferrari have had a hand in an Alfa Grand Prix team.
Now I’ve written the script, please Joe feel free to pass this post on to Luca di Montezemolo and all other relevant parties! 😀
Regards,
Stephen.
Surely they will just buy up Sauber. PS is only in it to keep everybody in employment until he can sell the team to somebody with the nouse and resources to ensure it’s survival going forward. It’s a German team based in Germany; just got themselves a good sponsor; new engine formula coming: seems a good and likely fit.
Toby,
I recommend that you have some salt and pepper on hand, to make it tastier…
@ stephen r – i suspect the connection between ferrari and STR is probably more from the current engine supply than the minardi days.
Of course, I totally forgot about that! Thanks.
A bit of history if anyone should be interested. I had spoken to Alex Caffi before the Italian GP on the subject of Porsche’s 1991 V12 project. He said: “We had a very bad engine. I think one of the worst in its career and that was the end of my (F1-Porsche) dream.” You can read the full interview here http://bit.ly/cqGQXu
Thank you
Joe,
Reading this reminds of a story from their last foray into F1, one that I’m sure you have heard before. I used to be married to Brian Hart’s niece & the story goes that when the Footwork engineers first received the the Porsche V12 they were horrified at the size & weight of it. It was apparently at least 5 years out of date & many kilos overweight. They promptly told the Porsche engineers who rejected the notion out of hand as impossible. To prove it to them they got hold of one of Brian’s Hart DFR’s & did a weight comparison. The V12 was expected to be heavier, obviously, but it was so much heavier that the Porsche engineers refused to believe the scales at first & asked for another set or for the existing ones to be recalibrated. With such a start to the relationship it was never going to be long & fruitful & I am totally convinced that this miscalculation/naiviety has had a lot to do with Porsches absence from F1 over the years.
M