Stories that suggest a Formula 1 with eight teams each running three cars sound half-sensible, don’t they? But could it really happen? And how would it work? Under the terms of the bilateral agreements with the teams there is believed to be provision for a third car for each team, but only if they are required. Does this mean that the teams will be paid extra for running those cars, or that these drivers would be eligible to score points?
My understanding of the deals – and it may not be right – is that third cars could not score points, and that teams would not be paid the prize money. Changing the structures in place would require unanimous support from the signatories (in other words, it is not going to happen).
So, in the circumstance third cars would only be a burden for a team, rather than a benefit. It might allow teams to sell a seat to a young driver, which might add interest to races (but would create “clutter” if liveries were different. Overall it would not be popular because it would push mediocre teams further back on the grid and thus reduce their ability to find money. If my sources are correct then the third car situation is less of a strategy than an emergency measure – and it is not going to happen – unless it has to…
joeblogsf1 
You could have a situation where the top two cars scored points.
God I hope not. Feel really sorry for the teams at the back. They work their arses off (on a tenth or so of the budget) and then get treated like rubbish from the Poison Dwarf. People may not think it but F1 would be worse off without these people!
I really do not agree with the idea of a third car being ineligible for points; for a start it will make a mockery of the race results, secondly as you rightly say it does not provide incentives for teams to run them then, thirdly what if a third driver was involved in a collision with someone going for the championship, and finally what if a bright young driver came and blew the socks off the incumbents? Would be be ineligible to fight them for the title? It will end up with lots of teams orders mess, and a very unappealing F1.
This has been mentioned in the past and has never happened, so I’m hoping it stays that way. Though I would be happy with 3-car teams to keep a healthy looking grid (and lots of cars for spectators to watch), they should all be competing on equal terms. Even if it does run the risk of lots of Mercedes-only podiums……
It does not matter whether we agree or disagree if it is written in a contract.
Joe, if the third car can’t score points or get prizes, why would a team bother to run them??
It matters if fans go away, one might think.
Common sense has finally left the building. I wish Formula One would just get back to its roots, with passionate team owners, designers, and drivers.What was so wrong with the old way of racing? When did it become a product that needed fixing? People who love Formula One ,will always love it. The only people who doubt that, are the people who have no love for the sport in the first place, and only see it as a cash cow.Personally I think its getting close to the time when all the teams should consider a breakaway series. If it was done right, the fans would follow.
So this would be a way for the rights holder to gain 8 free extra cars AND save on prize money paid to the 2 1/2 teams leaving the sport?
Sound awesome! (and I’m sure Monisha Kaltenborn is already excited about the sum of money the rights holder will hand out for the convenience of no longer competing in F1)
I understand that they couldn’t score points for the constructors title, but surely they would for the drivers’? If there were a third Mercedes this year for example, it would be ridiculous if the driver finishing 3rd in the title were excluded from the standings.
I don’t think they can score in either
All of this seems pretty silly. Everyone is calling for cost reductions and this only inflates the issue. Apparently selling cars is out the window, so now it’s third cars. At the same time, shortsightedness, ignorance, and greed seem to be taking place at the kings throne. Who needs social media? Let’s make people pay for watching F1 on TV. Audiences are falling like a stone and the Emperor’s new clothes are becoming quite …. Clear. Makes one almost start routing for the procicution in Munich…. For the good of the sport.
Joe, firstly excellent blog, always very informative. My question is, would there be a value in allowing teams outside the top 4 or 5 to run a third car. I assume the benefits could be, the potential for more points (if only statistically speaking), greater data gathered and if using a paid driver potentially greater income and thereby possibly greater sponsor media exposure (3 sponsor logos not 2). Or would the costs of running a third car outweigh these benefits for most of these smaller teams?
I don’t think that could ever happen
I can’t see it happening unless several teams pull out, which is not impossible considering the financial plight of some. A way of filling up the grid but would anyone race without the ability to score points? Points mean prize money!
Is this just another Bernie wind up?
One of Bernie’s strategies to setup one against another and open the door for customer Teams?
Three drivers from the same team filling the podium at the end of the race doesn’t sound too enticing.
Pit stops and garages would get a bit complicated or awkward with three-car teams.
It does seem like Bernie often has an ulterior motive for everything he says, I wonder what it is this time…
It could just be that he does not people watching Munich
On Bernie being happy to have people not notice Munich, did you see the Bloomberg report about the Judge polemizing with the Bambino lawyer/representative about his testimony Joe?
The reporting from Munich is largely skewed.
I don’t think it’s Munich he’s hiding it’s the preposterous safety car restart idea which needs the deflection. Why no have chimps throwing banana skins? It’s just as sensible.
When teams had T cars not that long ago they had 3 car garages so where’s the problem with that now?
You also need to take into consideration the extra cost required for the extra staff needed to run that car and the extra manufacturing costs.
F1 needs a proper feeder series. A series where teams have to design, develop and build their own cars but with some shared components and much tighter financial restrictions than F1 so that if an F1 team does go bust there are teams much closer to being ready and waiting to fill the void. The step from GP2 / WSR to F1 is currently far to big for any aspiring F1 team.
This of course ignores the fact that F1 is not run with the team’s best interests in mind and if it was there would be no risk of any of them going bust anyway…
An all 1 team podium is the worst thing that could happen for the sport.
I totally agree!
Yeah after all it’s not like the first ever GP had just one car one the podium is it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950_British_Grand_Prix Just saying.
The first ever Grand Prix was not at Silverstone in 1950. It was at Le Mans in France in 1906. Although the people of Pau might argue they held an event with that name in 1900.
This causes me to wonder about the last time when third or customer cars were used. (I’m ignoring the Toro Rosso Red Bull clone that Vettel won his first race in.) I seem to recall RAM running a customer Williams FW07 in 1980 or 1981, and it was Williams who gave Jonathan Palmer his first race in a third works car in, I think, 1983 (immediately before the Williams-Honda debuted in South Africa) which would have made it a flat-bottomed Wiliams-Cosworth FW08C.
Something in the back of my mind is trying to tell me about a third Renault run as a test for the in-car camera in maybe 1984, and the name Phillipe Streiff is mixed up in there somewhere too. Mind you. I could be imagining it.
I could look it up, but it’s so much more fun to wait for some kind person to provide me with chapter and verse.
Think they ran one for Francois Hesnault in Germany 1985, which is I think the last time there was a three car team. So, nearly 30 years ago.
A team running a 3rd car is not going to work.
Bernie’s third car idea is a joke! We all love the underdog. The battles at the rear of the grid are just as important than those at the front. A better idea would be a division of wealth to the team who finishes 11th ( or further down when (?) new teams arrive) and removing the top slice that Ferrari get. If the middle and lower teams were better supported then the whole grid would be stronger.
You have to wonder whether bernie has totally lost the plot, don’t you? This would mess up engine supply too, wouldn’t it? Those team that supply 4 sets of engines would have to increase their supply 50%, presumably with a commensurate increase in cost. If the teams running 3rd cars would see no revenue increase, it’s going to cost them something above $15m a year to run that engine. I don’t see sponsorship increasing to cover that. So how do they pay for it? That’s a lot of money for a 3rd driver to find, even if they could get themselves in a Merc or Ferrari.
Is this not Bernie just applying pressure on the smaller teams to stop them complaining about unequal revenues, again? While lining the pockets of those who care only for green paper with $ signs on, and nothing for racing.
Time to throw away Bernie and his cronies and give the sport to someone who cares about the racing. Then I hope the revenues would follow. But slowly killing f1 is not the way to do it.
So what is Bernie’s motive to keep continually bleating on about this if the small teams are never going to agree? He usually has some ulterior motive for what he leaks to his pet press lap dogs.
Wilson
the teams could look at it as a cheap(ish) way to do testing, drivers and cars.
with regards the smaller teams, even if the 3rd cars cant score points, would they even be classified in the race? if not it wouldnt make any difference to them.
i dont think its a bad idea, but considering its mr e who is saying this and suggesting that if the smaller teams cant afford it they should quit, it seems like a ‘negotiating’ tactic for prize money, fees etc.
Perhaps they could go over to the best two finishers of the three scoring points, rather than only a specified two being eligible. Having a nominated pair eligible for points would create a perverse incentive for the third car to retire, or at least always defer, in favour of the nominated pair, regardless of the performance/talent/luck of the third driver.
Right on.
And if one of those super-teams collapses, that’s 3 cars less on the grid ! And who would be willing to create a new team to run 3 cars to replace them ?
However, I think that adding a 3rd car from time to time might be entertaining. This used to happen until the mid-80s: a 3rd Renault for Streiff in 1984 and Hesnault in 1985, a 3rd Lotus for Mansell in 1980, etc.
Well I wouldn’t mind how many cars a team had a hand in. Back in the 70’s, BRM had 5 cars on the grid at some races, Helmut Marko drove one. And I remember Single car teams too, why not allow them? If Caterham & Marussia had 1 car entries, they might well be able to score sensible points. The main trouble with F1, apart from Bernie & CVC, is that it has just too many rules to run it, and the rules strangle the series. A looser version like we had in the 1970’s / 80’s would be better and profitable for the teams.
I suppose that explains why Uncle Bernard wants to give all the small teams their quietus — they’re stroppy and vocal, and raise awkward questions about the CRH machinations, and they don’t do what they’re told…
But anyway, speaking of not doing what he’s told, if Kolles is advising the new Caterham shareholders, where does that leave Forza Rossa?
Joe, would the governing bodies not consider overturning the rules on 2 cars and allowing less financed teams like Caterham or Marussia, the chance to run a single car? Teams of yesteryear like Wolff & Hesketh of the ’70s did and were quite competitive. Perhaps its an alternative to a (sensible) cost cap on everyone on the grid (which the big teams do not want) and allows so teams to keep their own costs down. It must be cheaper to run 1 car then 2 and allows smaller teams a chance to continue racing. Not everyone needs to go that route of course.
Fans want big grids, but not a reduction in teams with 3 cars or junior teams, but as many independent teams as possible.
Great, a Mercedes 1-2-3 every other week … how exciting
Joe your assessment at the end seems spot on. This is a silly season deployment by Bernie of his chaff generation machine. A story that fills column inches, but its only purpose is misdirection. Unfortunately some of the stupid ideas in F1, standing starts, seems to get traction. Lets hope there is always one stand out who votes no. So could it be run through the strategy group like standing starts to make it a reality?
I’m not sure how I feel about third cars. But, the way you describe it, it would be ridiculous. I don’t see why any team would want to run a third car. No prize money and no points, what’s the motivation? Getting a pay driver in the seat? I’m not sure who would want that gig. Pay for a seat and not have any chance at getting championship points.
So, what exactly would the FIA do in a scenario where a third driver wins a race? It’s not all that far-fetched, if you think about it. Say a third Mercedes was on the track and neither Ham and Ros finish, but the third Mercedes cruises to a win, er, a non-win.
Or, does it mean the top two of the three cars get points if all three are top 10 finishes? I can’t imagine, again using Merc as an example, either Ham or Ros being at all happy about that. Say one of them has an issue, but limps home in 7th, 8th, whatever, with the other two Mercs in front. The other two get points, but not the one who limped it home. Yeah, that would go over well, when every point counts.
This seems more like a hair-brained “help the show” thing, rather than something that has really been thought out.
Yes jo, but if the points deal is that they score points per race for the best two out of three, then that is a significant advantage for the teams. It would result in some interesting strategies too…
Good.
Or perhaps the money could be distributed more equitably… oh wait, was that pig flying by?
If you want a third car in the team, make them eligible to score points, it is unfair to say that the third car can’t contribute to the championships, it will make the teams loose money and it might make the third drivers like Alexander Rossi and Susie Wolf unhappy really. Don’t understand that at all.
And… somewhere else in the world, real racing continues in the Indy Car series.. Yeiyeii!
Yeah, that is why the audience is so big
Ah, the series where a lap down can just prance around in front of the leader until his team mate has caught up.
Lovely, that.
I certainly hope it doesn’t happen. Reading at latest rumbling from mr.E , sounds that he would like nothing else than three teams with eight cars each. Guess which teams?
It was one of the obvious solutions to the lack of sponsorship. As was customer cars/2nd brand teams.
It is no surprise that Bernie has suggested this now, as he skilfully kills off the tv audience viewing figures. (but increases FOM income).
The reality of the circuit deals can be seen at the very end of the Derek Warrick monologue, an unforgettable piece very well worth watching.
Not a dry eye at one point!
Bugger’s got an amazing memory, I can’t remember all my old customers even. (Though some are definitely best forgotten, you know who you are!) Posted by the exF1doc on his blog.
Joe, perhaps I am being naive but if third cars could not score points and if teams would not be paid any prize money why would they do it?
All of the thrashing that is going on in F1 is a key reason that fans are leaving the sport. Ridiculous ides are becoming set in stone such as standing restarts. Are they mad? So, we could have a standing restart after the start has produced a crash. Mmm good idea.No?well lets have titanium skid pans instead of the plank…lots of pretty lights! What next flashing fairy lights and booming sub-woofers to “improve the show” as well?
Meanwhile BE has perhaps lost his way and is clueless about how to promote the show in the new age….he doesn’t or wont do anything that doesn’t make a quick buck, but he isn’t thinking about sponsors that would love to have their message broadcast even if there is no revenue trail now. Bernie simply does not understand the digital world with its complex business-business-consumer networking.
The so called (and self-serving) Strategy Group come up with the great idea of how to save money by doing away with first practice…how much does that save? Did anyone ask the loyal fans that turn up early on Friday What about the broadcasters? Last and not least what about the sponsors? They must be delighted they will get less coverage. Seriously, how much money does banning tire warmers save and what about the safety aspect?
I have (briefly) been involved in and have keenly supported F1 since the 60’s – I went to my firt race at Silverstone (race of Champions where Jack Brabham ran out of fuel while leading on the last lap) since I think in 1968.
All the european races demand that I stay awake until 2 in the morning, but I am losing faith at the moment.
They would not
How about letting mediocre teams run one car… I say in jest. I don’t like the idea of 3 car teams.
….. which … in light of future prospects … it very well may have to . Not that like most other measures of late it’ll make a lick of sense or amount to a hill of beans . Oh … beans … as in Bean Counters . Yeah . I can just hear it now . A team principal trying to explain to the Bean Counters why they should run a 3rd car . Going something like this perhaps ?
“Yes it will cost us a fortune . Won’t make us a dime in appearance fees or a solitary point towards the championship . But that Bernie fellow thinks it makes sense ….. and he knows everything … so it must ”
That’ll go over real well . Especially with the likes of the Daimler AMG Mercedes board . I’ll hazard a guess the response would be .. ” Two Cars or No Cars . Take your pick ! And smile once you do ! “
Well the idea of 3 car teams is the natural corollary of having rules that cause huge surges in development and running costs. I don’t see how anyone could not see that a revamp of F1 in the way that this has occurred, would not result in even greater financial stress for the 11 teams, than has been the case since the global collapse of 2008. Any sane promoter would either have scrapped the changes and carried on with what was already in place, or would have moved the rules so that they substantially reduced development and running costs for the teams. All these people are supposed to be the ultimate brains in finance & design, with brains the size of planets, and all they can do is open the money tap faster and further, and then complain that they are running out of cash! Words fail me….Titanium skid plates…Yeah! brilliant….and how much will they cost to throw away next year and the year after and the….you get the point!
I can’t see how it could make any difference. There will be a new ‘third world’ created at the back of the grid, just involving 3 car teams instead of 2.
Looking at the grid this proposal would only float if you lost three teams, obviously with Caterham being sold they should manage at least another two years before they might hit the wall. Lotus I think will possibly stagger on if they can cut some engine costs. Marussia I have no idea they seem to hold it together against all odds. You then have Haas coming in in 2016 so I expect that this proposal isn’t likely to happen.
Saddens me to write this but F1 is in a real mess – OK the power, spectacle and drive-ability is great BUT – The Package is wrong although massive viewing figures Worldwide – are these real ??? / Is it Manufacturer or Driver Formula / People complain about the sound / Advertising is wrong / Lack of Internet is wrong (Hell !! The Citizen Advice Bureau Website is better) / Viewing Costs is ridiculously wrong / Plastic Tyres with Marbles is wrong (WEC Rubber tyres last up to 4hrs and only a few marbles after 24hrs) (OK we know changing tyres is for the spectacle but its no longer racing it’s playing pit stops) Third Car – Monza threatened !! Tired Broadcasting !! So where’s the PASSION these days – It’s all got too contrived and run by an old Billionaire who’s still using threats – He’s no lover of F1 – so where is he giving back to the Sport (You don’t see HIM at Goodwood ??? ) – Younger kids won’t be joining (pay $1000- are you insane) and older viewers will be leaving as ITS ALL GOT MASSIVELY PREDICTABLE . Just things seems to have sucked the Spirit – It’s all got boring especially when you Watch WEC with Le Mans / MOTOGP/ INDYCAR /NASCAR/ Saloon and Sports Car Car Racing /Superbikes and The Tour De France starting in a few days ………… Sheesh after going looking (and that’s not easy where I live) I can now say I see just how much the other Series have worked and they do an excellent professional job.
I’d be happy if ALL the Teams just packed their bags and started a Series irrespective of Bernie with CVC and FIA. Oh Well “Pigs might fly.”
Where the hell are they going to find eight teams who can afford to put three cars on the grid? Most are struggling to find the finance for two. Even Uncle Ron is finding it hard to get a sponsor to pay the Mclaren rate. Plus the works Ferrari and Merc teams would increase costs and reduce income. As ever can’t help thinking this is a Bernie diversion, either from Munich or as some sort of precursor to customer cars. Still it’s better than his annual Silverstone is crap rant.
I would love just to see a few more competitive starters on the grid, a long circuit can be pretty empty with just 22 cars circulating, so I like the idea of 3 cars,
I would think some of the top teams would happily pay for the opportunity to test the new driver, or test some new parts even if they couldn’t score points. But yes, it doesn’t make sense if they cant score points, you might as well show them a blue flag for every points scoring driver because they are inelligible. It would bewilder fans.
I think cost cutting for activities that aren’t seen by the spectator on track is fine, but any increase in cost to get more cars or track, or more running time on track at a race weekend should be completely justified. (So I’m miffed they’ve shortened Friday practice,)
I don’t understand how they could have different liveries, I thought they were already prevented from having different liveries on 2 cars (eg: BAR), so why would 3 be different?
Can the FIA just not framework a set of regulations that encourages technical innovation, and give some room for that ‘eureka’ moment? There seems little to encourage new teams to join the sport, and with the rules so tight, huge amounts seem to be spent chasing tiny aero gains that are enough to give that slim advantage that makes the difference between the front and back of the grid. I do believe that F1 teams should design and construct their own cars, despite there being a long history of teams buying off the shelf. Giving the designers room to search for innovation may enable the smaller teams to make a huge leap and compete. Yes, other teams would catch up, or find a different avenue of development to pursue, but perhaps the status quo……wouldnt be.
But see what happens when a well-funded team has said Euruka moment.
No, what makes for a close and gripping fight is for an (under-funded) underdog to come up with something and dominate the early season, and for the well-funded competition to catch up by the start of the European summer season.
Which, as you might imagine, is very hard to engineer, unless of course a number of people and corporations do just the right things at the same time, and the regulator decides not to step in and harm the show for some reason.
Or you could have artificially wet shortcuts awarding bonus points on courses around the globe.
Just think what some one like Flavs could do with the 3rd car on his team… if he had a team.
3rd car = rear gunner?
If the top eight teams all had a third car, would that bring back pre qualifying, (26 car grid limit?) and then consign the bottom two teams to never even getting a race, let alone the chance of some points…
Why would a clever guy like Haas or the supposed new Romanian team pursue a new entry when faced with a possible 3 car ruling in the near future??
Flies in the face of logic? Or at the least business common sense, there being little logic in F1 lately.
Joe
Third cars would be a disaster for F1 in particular the smaller teams (it would kill them off which is probably what Bernie want’s). Further more if the third car cannot score points or be paid prize money the big teams will use their third car as a battering ram for taking out title rivals.
How sad F1 would become if you end up having podium’s with the three drivers on them all from the same team.
Thought for a while that it could be interesting if three cars of the team were to attend qualifying sessions but only best two were allowed to be qualified.
Then realized that qualifying might be interesting (enhancing the rivalry within the team), but the idea would be rubbish for teams. And for third drivers, probably.
insanity has now totally set in. sounds like the Roman 3rd century crisis.
As Joe has often said as regards Bernie, don’t look at the hands!! I assume his recent missives are all positioning for the next move…
Very good article but it’s already to late to fix F-1. Too much damage has been already done.
Such a defeatist attitude. F1 is still a great show. It could be better. There are some things that need fixing. They will be fixed. It is just a matter of time. If not they are all fools. And that they are not. The only real question is whether one of them is trying to take it with him…