Sorry, I don’t get it. All these fans saying that McLaren should make a decision over drivers – because they (the fans) want to know. Methinks that grumbling fans are probably not that important in the overall scheme of things.
I am sure that there are perfectly valid reasons why the board has not made a decision. The assumption that delays are bad for Jenson Button are just daft. Maybe a delay is better for JB. Who is to say? My feeling is that the decision is probably now tied to the question of who owns the team in six weeks time. Ron Dennis is busy raising money to buy shares belonging to his partners. There is a deadline. If he is successful he will become the majority shareholder and will do as he pleases, if he is not successful there will be changes at the top of the group. The drivers will just have to wait to see what happens. The fans too…
joeblogsf1 
No of course the fans don’t matter that’s F1. But surely a former World Champion is entitled to a little respect?
He is highly respected within McLaren. That is not the point. But I am sorry, as much as I believe in engaging with fans, we do need to have some reality in here somewhere.
x WC or not, regardless of anything else, JB is an employee, the same as all the others at Macs. I like the guy (him over Lewis any day) but why should a WC be entitled to any more respect than any other employee? …whose dedication he relies upon
And I thought it was just because they’d already drawn names for secret Santa.
“Methinks that grumbling fans are probably not that important in the overall scheme of things.” and in a nutshell you summarise all that is currently wrong with F1, and sound like Bernie to boot. No I can’t afford a Rolex, so obviously my opinions and feeling are of no interest to a sport that relies on people to care. I am not sure I do anymore.
Do you think fans should decide who drives where?
No, fans shouldn’t decide where a driver drives. However if you were in the position Button and Magnussen are in, I’m sure you would be more than annoyed at McLaren’s reticence to make a decision. Normally these decisions are made much earlier giving the driver who is out more time to sort out his future.
Yes, I damn well do, Joe. Kickstarter.. have you heard of it? Some guy built an ingenious cat treadmill that is built from recycled plastic, connectable parts for a low retail cost and wanted only $10,000 USD for the production… the idea (brilliant one at that) got $350,000 in “donations”.. or “funding” from ordinary (excuse the puns, it can’t be helped) Joe’s… like you and I. I am ordering one for my cat.
So yes, ALL F1 drivers are my cats and I cannot stand seeing other people treat them badly and they WILL incur my wrath if they mess with them…. but hey, cats have claws and teeth of their own and if you are a pedigree breed you COMMAND respect and the appropriate treatment… and no doubt these cats we know and love are capable of doing their own damage…
But why you sit on the fence with this when there is a clearly political and financial agendas is actually maddening.
You of all people should be filled with the same anger we “fans” are dealing with over the treatment of a world champion who has given his all for a team that gave him very very little in return.
Instead you just write “US” off as mere “fans”.
Do I have to tell you the story about how John Button and I were drinking from wine bottles in the karaoke room at the Log Cabin in Suzuka in ’07?
Seriously… this is the worst time for you to be PC.
No, I’m not filled with anger, no am I suffering from PC-ness. Nor am I filled with wine. I just think that fans should realistic about business and not think that their desires are more important than a team’s strategic thinking. There may not be any agendas at all. The team might have concluded wisely to see who the boss is before the driver is chosen. I’d call that good sense, not an agenda. I am all for fans having a voice but if they want that, they need to use it sensibly and not beat up a team for not making a decision that it does not need to make.
I think the level-headed fans are just surprised it has dragged on this long and been handled in such an amateur fashion. Of late Ron seems unable to deliver on anything he promises, including taking ownership in a timely fashion that would not see the team’s drivers caught up in the mess.
I think Jenson should stay for 2 years, Mag placed with a team eyeing Honda in 2016, and it is Ron that needs to walk the plank.
But dammit, fans can see so much else that is glaringly wrong with F1, and there seems no overall management, most of the time.. so it may be simply that fans are inadvertently encouraged to think they may know better.
Just a musing theory, beyond the usual desires of who is passionate about everything that goes on.
I’d be a terribly judge of drivers, most certainly, from the outside. Not only recently, but the new cars are so complicated, and have turned up so many surprises that relate to driving style, I reckon the job got a lot harder.
Also, we hang on to our favorites, even when we know there may be question marks over their ability. I think Joe’s is the only blog to have laid out adequately the context of the unusual amount of upcoming talent. I personally quite like the delay / overhang. It puts added pressure on the current grid, and gives me more time to get to know who i’ll be enjoying in the near future.
We all know that companies can hit rock bottom, before transforming their fortunes, and that the efforts to do so may not be apparent for a long while. I reckon the new formula is one of those structural changes that has given us effectively a new sport to watch, but that hasn’t become accepted yet. I hope there’s enough further change of the right kind, to come. Maybe Bernie hangs on, for reasons to do with the fact the transformation can ruins a reputation, and … well turnaround / rescue / company doctor specialists are so rare, and too often celebrated for their precursor’s work… his continuance may not be the worst thing ever. Boy, is it worrying, right now, though.
Does F1 have a more intelligent fanbase, than other sports? I like to think so! Compared with football one sure hopes ha ha, but I always thought the collective intelligence of the planet must be negative… so it does on deflection seem that there’s some arrogance in calling for driver decisions the way some do.
It’s bad for which ever driver they chose, they are hardly going to feel valued if the team too this long to decide if they were good enough.
Plus i think the fans wanting to know is important, the team wants to be popular, would sponsors (and the road car division) really want people disliking the team so much? I’m sure there are good reasons but it just LOOKS messy and unprofessional, not the image Ron likes…
“just LOOKS messy and unprofessional, not the image Ron likes…” as if there are any TM’s that DO like a messy and unprofessional image…
Better results have come out of far worse looking places than Ron’s pretentious palace over the years
It’s interesting, to my mind, how only one “corperative”, button down corporation style team, seems to have survived in F1. Maybe Mercedes competes for big business organization now, but they have some very unusual managers for a big company. Not to denigrate any other teams, for you need great organization to merely turn up to a race. But I’m surprised I have never come across a management study style of book, about F1. I think such a book ought it be commissioned, because I reckon it would speak to potential sponsors in board rooms very powerfully, and maybe entice a few more. It’s oft said that people write about themselves the more according to how self regarding they may be. Maybe that’s something that needs sorting out. I believe there’s enough material to make a serious monthly F1 magazine, viably, and one that could be circulated to raise the profile of what’s being done. In many ways, F1 could be a immensely valuable laboratory for study. It’s a case study of poor PR and non existent marketing, right now. Possibly TPTB dislike the idea of credible criticism, but at some point in life, one needs to man up. For too long, I think the teams have largely been a experiment in management, whereas if instead they managed themselves better, I reckon we’d see far better sport. The two are not separable, but independent twins, who need some counseling. I read that Mercedes is reckoned to have garnered the equivalent of a couple of billion bucks of advertising this year. This is stuff every company should read about with interest.
Joe
That seems to spell out the situation with a clarity not always seen.
I am really enjoying ‘The World Atlas of Motor Racing’ which I acquired last week.
Are there any titles that you have penned or have contributed to that you can direct me too.
I ‘liked’ (very much) Crippen and Saboteurs and with others are looking forward to the next.
SD
Just for fun: If Ron gets a majority stake, does he go with Jenson or Kevin?
Regardless, I think Ron would always decide in the same way he always does. I can’t see him changing his spots, or abandoning his hallmark style, for a driver, no matter what is said and may be true of his care for Mika. Now, now, for his reconciliation with Fernando, I think he remains a straight shooter. The vital contract information can of course tell many stories, but we’re not privy. I mostly don’t care much for contracts, provided who I like, or anyone for that matter, is not being unfairly treated. Say Jenson had been jettisoned, well, who thinks he cold not find a drive, albeit for a more modest fee?
Apols for my slovenly typing, it was “Nor, now, for his reconciliation with Fernando…” and “could not find a drive” not cold not find..
Obviously it’s not in Ron’s interest in any way, majority shareholding or howsoever, to do what’s wrong. Maybe there might be a benefit of the doubt given but there was always that argument and it was a good argument. You fix that in contract details, I presume. Which is where the debate os. But for me this all gets into splitting hairs on a bald man’s head, rather..
I found the statements coming from McLaren to be almost impenetrable. So many words, such convoluted but carefully weighed thought. Natural maybe for a Ron Dennis, but hard to imagine as fluent Jens or ‘Nando..
No grumbling fans are never at the forefront of any sport.
I agree that we’ll have to wait, but in the meanwhile….
If Alonso really was waiting to see whether Hamilton’s seat at Mercedes would become available and delayed the announcement of his departure from Ferrari for as long as possible, might it also be true that McLaren are prepared to wait even longer for the outcome of the Hamilton/Mercedes negotiations?
Joe, Can you explain the thinking behind if Ron Dennis cant raise the money that then the leadership then has to change, one assumes with Ron D. >>if he is not successful there will be changes at the top of the group<<
Not sure I get how one logically follows the other. We are told the deadline has passed and been extended once already. Why not extend again? Cant imagine someone else with more money readily accessible is waiting in the wings who then becomes boss and sends Ron D on an extended Leave of Absence, like Martin Whitmarsh, before some settlement is made.
So why not extend the deadline again? This could drag on forever until the cash is raised or the price is lowered or they decide not to sell. If the buyer cant raise the money and you want to sell then the market forces suggest you have to lower the asking price. So I assume you know something else that drives that comment???? Care to share?
I don’t understand this business, either, at least not looking at the logic the way you put it, which seems pretty sound logic to me..
Maybe there is some impasse, a disgruntlement that causes one to say “Oh, if you want it all your way so badly, you buy me out!”
I can think of so many reasons stories are told, around any deal, to disguise the real intentions. If someone doesn’t want to show a weak hand, and need to sell, might they be so ruthless as to create a rumor to deflect attention from the motive to sell their shares?
It’s like the joke about how one time share prices might move around rumors about changes n the Kremlin, or alternatively in the OPEC, but the joke being that most of the rumors were being created by traders in the Kremlin having a chuckle at the expense of the stoopid capitalists.
I’d much like to hear Joe’s views, also. It’s not above his proverbial pay grade, though there are always sensitivities and the need to be trusted with good information is the inevitable necessity of doing the job well.
So much of life is deception at one level or another. I came to think that maybe Joe isn’t quite so obsessive about the screenscraper work thieves and regurgitate them commercially on a unsuspecting public. Because they were stupid enough to regurgitate articles critical of their practice, one might keep at that as a natural deterrent, like publishers “salt” a subscriber database to catch the abusers. Just normal practice.
These whole RD share-saga was odd from day one. RD, Mansour Ojjeh and the Bahrainis have clearly not the same opinion and pulling in different directions.
How can someone be the boss, make decisions but hasn’t paid for the shares and is acting against the other 2 which are actually still the owners and remain the owners if he can’t pay?
Do they undo everything he has done once it is clear he can’t pay? Everything is in a state of suspense and they can’t move on.
In my eyes this situation is a real mess and means stagnation in every area as we can see with the drivers.
There is no clear concept rather for the car nor for the public image.
I can’t remember when and if I saw McLaren ever in such a devastating form.
Lego is as well not interested in sponsoring them.
If the car and the engine are a disaster next year and they remain uncompetitive in the next 2-3 years, Honda will pull out, McLaren will not get a new works deal and if Honda was there title sponsor as well (as suggested by some) they maybe go the Williams way….
I guess this this next 2 months are the most important in McLaren’s history and they will define which way they go for the next decade….
> How can someone be the boss, make decisions but hasn’t paid for the shares and is acting against the other 2 which are actually still the owners and remain the owners if he can’t pay?
Am I the only one getting a déjà vu from the final few weeks of the Caterham saga here?
Ah, and here I thought that fans were important… Guess not. I wonder if Honda thinks fans are important, and if they are enjoying this PR fiasco?
fans are important, but please don’t think that they should be involved in making decisions over who is best for a team.
I have to agree. I would like to see JB in the sport next year, but as fans and/or observers we are not privy to all the information. The team will base its decision on many factors. Unfortunately commercial and fiscal concerns will enter into that decision making process. A team that ran this year with no title sponsor, despite claiming good finances, cannot do so indefinitely. So perhaps the backing of one of magnussens compatriots or the wishes of the new engine supplier will sway the decision. I, with everyone else, will just have to wait and see
Can’t argue with your reasoning Joe (although as a McLaren fan and a Button fan, I would like to know). What I’d most like to see is McLaren back at the front, which will hopefully be the end result of whatever decision they ultimately make.
Someone please give uncle Ron the money!
>>Someone please give uncle Ron the money! << Could Crowd source it, Bernie would love that!
I wish just one of these crowd source plans actually delivered the goods. Or if we could have a wild card by popular write in, maybe every few years would be enough.
As if multi-millionaire drivers need our sympathy?
Heck, I know the world has change and the circumstances were different then but Senna signed very late to drive for the McLaren in ’93.
Is it also reasonable to assume Jenson will cost a lot more and the team may be waiting to see if they can afford him?
the difference will be peanuts in F1 terms , especially when a few more points can bring in an extra $10 million
that’s exactly my thought …
Joe do you think RD risks being thrown out of McLaren if he cannot gather the money to buy a majority stake ? And why? Lack of F1 results or is it the manufacturing side of the company which is not up to shareholders’ expectations?
Totally agree with you Joe.
It seems to not be noted in most outlets that if the drivers are without a current contract they are also free to seek other employment opportunities elsewhere be they in F1, F2, F3, WEC, WRC, CART or even McDonald’s for that matter. Their bargaining position does not improve by begging to be employed by their current employer. The need for money is likely to not be a factor in most of their lives anymore.
However, as much as they all seem to want or say they want the drive, I doubt that either will end up signing the first proposal that is possibly forthcoming by the team…And the negotiation tactic used will be the threat of walking away. Funny how it all goes round and round…
Could the outcome of this affect both drivers’ seats: Alonso as well, in your opinion?
No
Agreed ! The fans so called ‘ needs ‘ should not be the priority when it comes to McLaren choosing which drivers will be in the seat for 2015 [ or should it ? … see * below ]
But err…. don’t you think its just a little more than disrespectful … not to mention damned unprofessional towards the drivers themselves for McLaren to be leaving the drivers in question’s proverbial arses hanging out in the wind .. so to speak ?
In my rapidly escalating cynical opinion [ when it comes to the current F1 ] … this is but one more case of the endemic attitude that has become epidemic thru out the ranks of F1 that is rapidly causing the sport to deteriorate … crushing itself under its own hard weight of delusions of grandeur and importance when it comes to the world at large .
Which is to say McLaren ! Get a freaking grip . You’re just a bunch of over paid children in adults bodies playing with very expensive and irrelevant toys barely pretending to be a ‘ sport ‘ when in fact you’ve digressed into full blown and scripted … spectacle
* In conclusion though Joe … who is it thats footing the bill ? Why … that’d be us .. the fans … seeing as how we’re the commodity that the FIA , teams and ‘ sport ‘ as a whole are selling lock stock and barrel TO the sponsors … not the ‘sport ‘ itself [ Business & Marketing 101 in the 21st Century ] ….. Which is to say …. perhaps it WOULD behove McLaren to bow to the wishes of its fans just a bit . Else we start looking elsewhere for our biweekly entertainment fix as well as somewhere else to be ‘ sold ‘ ** … wink wink
** Aint life grand these days as an indentured servant thinking you’re a paying fan ?
At the end of it, the question of the ultimate customer, I only think of why MacDonald’s doesn’t offer cheeseburgers without the pickle. But they started to advertise for write in suggestions. I think paying lip service to mass customization, or limited public input, is a good thing, when it’s impractical to do much of it. Modern cars, bought new, seem to have millions of variations possible in configuration, but they’re big ticket items with different economics.
I also agree it’s too easy to get very cynical lately about F1, but maybe we are better informed maybe a lot of us now having three of more eras to recollect, and the engine formula is a whopping change not settled in, much yet to come from it, including higher revs and better sounds.
;,
“Methinks that grumbling fans are probably not that important in the overall scheme of things”
Indeed. It’s not as if McLaren or Honda need to sell cars, attract title sponsorship or attract fans to their respective brands is it? Fans may not matter in the midst of a business decision, but the demeanor that is projected to the outside world does matter.
The fan that wants to know if JB or Kevin is driving is the kind of fan that buys a £150 coat, a £25,000 Type-R or a £150,000+ McLaren road car. That’s why it matters. They want to be part of something.
One has to be careful indirectly insulting those who you also want to sell a product to. Even if on one level you are providing entertainment for free.
When was the last time you bought a McLaren road car?
Did you see Jensons ‘selfie’ taken recently at Puligny-Montrachet Joe? In the background was a yellow (!) McLaren parked up – if that was a ‘company car’ they’re definitely trying to tell him something!
2012. And I completely agree with Mr Crawford, Joe.
If they were a company that made decisions on the basis you want, there wouldnt be a company around to make that lovely 2012 car.
Button is out of contract – there may be a seat available to him in a 2015 Mclaren – it is up to him if he wants to hold out to see if the offer is made to him, which likely will depend on who ends up with the controlling interest of the company for the upcoming season – that seems pretty understandable to me
I’ve always, not alone for the idea was realized before I did, been tempted to think that people didn’t cry out, e.g. for a way to play loud rock music in their ears privately until Akio Morita wanted a way to quieten his teenager’s listening pleasure. But I’d like to know if such a insight might apply to developing and choosing drivers, not meaning slick PR glossing of image alone.
Never. But isn’t this the same argument as Bernie’s, about only listening to people who own a Rolex (I’ve got two of those, can I vote twice?)? Is that -really- where you want to go with this?
I wouldn’t have an issue with McLaren’s driver-decision time-scale if they’d simply said . . .
‘We’ll make an announcement when we’re ready’
Unwisely, their PR department issued a number of vacuous excuses and assumed the fans would be stupid enough to swallow them.
Totally agree.
And Ron being ever so diligent to balance differential equations inside of every sentence wasn’t necessary. Whilst I used to enjoy Ronspeak, and poke a bit of fun at him, not least because I have a bit of that in me, he sounded worn and out of place to me, and it didn’t fit the image I would want for a company, even if he defined what that company is in so many ways. He presents a image of total control by technocracy that is not how companies have realized is what people want to hear, even if they sell masterpieces of engineering that who can afford will not be dissuaded to buy by any kind of PR not the worst kind,
We’ll have to wait 6 weeks to find out?!
I fully agree that it is all their decision…..do you agree that when Dennis manages to raise the money he will choose for Kevin? As he has been up and down the Danish countryside for sponsors?
I can imagine that Alonso (I am assuming he will be a McLaren driver in 2015) would prefer Button over Kevin, to avoid as similar situation (ok not exactly the same) to the season with Lewis…. What do u think?
Dear Joe, all
So, Ron is trying to procure the clamshells to purchase a flat 25% from Al Khalifa, and, a flat 12.5% from TAG. Giving him 65%. Is the pursuit of 65% just a ‘shoot for the moon, miss and you’ll hit the stars’ attempt to get a tad over 50%? Or, is there some reason to go for 65%.
It seems curious that Ron has not been more covert.
I have read that Mansour Ojjeh was less than impressed with Ron’s little palace coup re McLaren F1- something about Ron striking whilst the iron was hot- Mr Ojjeh being in the process of recovering from a heart lung transplant!
Any rumours as to what Al Khalifi &/or Ojjeh are up to, as far as defending their turf goes??
Seems like a high risk strategy for Ron- if either falls over, he is stuck with either 37.5% or 50%.
Looks like Ron will be paying through the nose to get his baby back…….
Cheers
MarkR
I’m not sure I agree Joe. I think that McLaren leaving Jenson dangling like this is pretty rude, after all the effort he has put in the last few years. Heading into Abu Dhabi not knowing if it was his last race robbed Jenson and his fans for the chance of a proper goodbye.
I’m pretty sure he got nicely paid as a thank you for his efforts. Jenson is also better than most, so he probably won’t complain either.
First world problem.
I think it goes two ways. In one way I agree with you. I’d like Button to have a proper goodbye, and not having to leave like Barrichello did.
On the other hand, the lack of any news also means he’s still in the running for that seat. So it’s not a clear case of McLaren knowing exactly where to go with their driver line up.
And then there’s also Button himself who could make a decision. He could just call it a day and make the decision for McLaren easier.
Of course fans are not important in board room decisions, Joe, races are held at circuits where there are huge empty spaces in the grandstands but the sport means a lot to us in the UK and we have our favourites. Surely we can have opinions and wishes. If the grid next year only has one British driver left it will be a huge disappointment. Also, Jenson has always been very popular and it for these reasons that these comments you refer to are made. Please get it.
I’ve got no particular axe to grind although I would prefer Jenson stayed and I think Fernando is quite right on the experience front (although with Fernando you never know what the real reason is anyway).
I appreciate that McLaren has to run as a business first and foremost (and it is their train set) but it doesn’t give a very good impression to both fans – and if they’re not careful through reputational damage as a result of fan/web campaigns – also could damage prospects in respect of potential sponsors.
Honda I think acted brilliantly in the Brawn situation and got very little credit for it and I’m sure they don’t want any negative feedback on their first season back.
So Ron get on with it and keep Jenson! Maybe Fernando will chip in to his retainer…
PS I understand McLaren acted pretty honourably as well in respect of the Brawn situation. Ron doesn’t do himself any favours sometimes
I am not sure that it is wise to knock a man who started out as a mechanic and became a multi millionaire.
If you have done the same then fair enough.
I’m not knocking him – I understand he’s done some very significant charitable things very quietly in the past and he didn’t kick Ross Brawn and co when he was down when Honda left them in the lurch – which I referred to above – and I also think he was very hard done by in the Ferrarigate affair.
What I am saying is that with his demeanour (what I see of it) he doesn’t do himself any favours with – dare I say the word – the fans and on that point you are wrong in my opinion because without us watching the sport will become irrelevant and certainly and certainly uneconomical in its present form
He became a millionaire, and respect and consideration is due, especially for the way in which he did it, he’s a example. But leading a company is to adduce the responsibility for all within that company, and their families, who rely on it. If Ron had a poor reputation, I doubt anyone would nitpick. But he does, and if he cannot present the company in the way it needs to be seen, according to how the world moves on, I think reasonable comment can and even should be made. He’s one of the rare people who earned their respect thoroughly, and to my knowledge never presumed on anything. But I still think he sounded out of place, his language even now more than dated, but being so analytical not actually quite how I would want my most public boss to sound. His own attention to detail can surely be applied to him, if it is something that matters. Off to make my million in case my tuppence is shy the entry of my comment 🙂
Autotypo silliness: assume not adduce in end of second line. Feels like my bedtime is overdue..
The shareholder issues (while the elephants play the mice hide in the grass and hope they don’t get squashed) is one aspect the delay is also great way to make sure your sponsors and the McLaren name all get lots of exposure …
Perhaps it also has to do with who will be McLarens primary sponsor next year.
Sent from my Sony Xperia Z2 Tablet
That story has been around for a long time
Surely its not for the fans – it’s for the drivers themselves. A bit of respect for them wouldnt go amiss.
I really dont understand why they wouldn’t go for Button, the pairing is mouth watering – Magnussen was comprehensively beaten, would that have happened to Hamilton in his rookie year? I think not…
Fans are grumbling because
a) Jenson is a very popular British driver
b) MacLaren are still a popular British team
c) this popular British team are being perceived to be treating Jenson badly.
I’m sure that , as you suggest, the power struggle for control of MacLaren has a huge bearing on the announcement of their 2015 driver line up. I’m equally sure that fans are not hugely important to the various boardrooms (some more than others), but they absolutely should be.
As you frequently comment here Joe, F1 badly needs to engage with it’s fans and make some effort to engage with new ones. I can’t believe that the sport’s sponsors don’t make more noise about lack of promotion to the Teams, BE and CVC. Perhaps those conversations go on behind closed doors.
When the fans stop grumbling it’s likely because they’be stopped caring and then F1 is really in trouble. Frankly with the shambolic management of the sport and the ‘couldn’t give a stuff’ attitude shown by BE, CVC et al it’s a wonder fans still care enough to grumble.
Lose the fans and you’ll quickly lose the sponsors, or at least severely reduce the rate card.
It’s a sad state of affairs when the sport has fans in spite of the promoters rather than because of them.
Yes F1 needs to engage with fans but, come on, fans don’t have a right to sit in the boardroom and driver choices are not made with petitions. There are serious business questions involved here and I am sure Jenson and Kevin are grown-up enough to get through the holiday period without having nervous breakdowns over it. It is not lacking respect, it’s just business. As I understand it, there was a decision some time ago but the board (which has the power) wanted to think more about it.
‘It’s nothing personal. iI’s just business’…now where did I hear that before?
Sometimes one can take such statements at face value. The great thing about Ron, is that you can believe him. If you can understand him, maybe..
Presumably the decision was for Jenson, but the board/Ron want to think about it to get Maynussen?
No I don’t think that is right. I’d say the opposite and would not put Ron and the board together.
Joe, Would I be correct in reading that as Ron wants Kevin, but the board disagree and think Jenson would be a better choice?
I really like Jenson. Always have. He is a great arcing driver. A class act. The question is whether it is best for the team to go with a man who has been around F1 for 15 years, or to go with a hungry youngster. Remember there is another youngster behind him!
Cart before horse. If there’s another young driver behind Magnussen and keeping Button on for another year means Magnussen loses out then tough. KM hasn’t shown enough to demonstrate anything more than he is a highly competent driver. Question has to be who will score more points next year – and that is certainly Button. Provided he will go for a 1 year deal, and perhaps a minor pay cut.
Such assuredness…
What if Kmag is much more close to Button next year in terms of points? And what if the experience he gains puts him even further ahead the year after that, even to the point he would outscore button. McLaren has to decide if that is a sound investment.
It is just guesswork. But generally, younger = hungrier
Anyone remember Jenson first seasons in f1? Michael, ruebens…All were forced out. I thought Mclaren should have sacked him in 2012 and hung on to lewis. Nobody will be talking about this one year from now. The attention span of the typical human will guarantee that
True
Hey Joe, so KMag is going to be hungrier than Ferdy? Pull the other one mate!
Why am I involved in this conversation if you are replying to someone else?
Re younger = hungrier, I think as we age, we rely on our experience the more, partly because things like families increase the workload of the mind. I am certain I can describe, for some situations at least, just how my thinking has slowed, in some detail, it’s fascinating, and a very useful self-check IMO.
But, in sport, or anything highly competitive, anything where long exertion and long time repeated failure is a feature, I think the risk is considerably heightened. Before his WDC, many fretted Jensen was over the hill, and cited his failed promise as the most significant do concern. Then he had a lot to deal with, along with a new formula, and some say the same thing again.
From a business angle that is correct but nevertheless from a strategic HR planning point-of-view the board does not win any awards. to me it sounds like a song with false notes but then again, who does not make mistakes?
From my perspective, the issue is the lack of news. This means, at least an article or tweet from the team. Mclaren said Dec 1, and it hasn’t happened. Certainly, this is not a simple decision, and I know there are solid reasons, but fans just want to know. Mclaren could have said: next week, chaps, we ain’t ready.
In the meantime, fans (the large crowd that makes F1 the most popular motorsport) are reading crappy stories from lousy sites and get angry. Mostly at the team for not sending a two sentence message. I have specifically checked both my media login at Mclaren media site and their Twitter – no news.
Of course, fans are free to read whatever they wish, it’s just I think the Mclaren fans are very, very loyal, and hence the pressure – they would appreciate a word from the main stream.
Finally, my guess – Alonso & Button to stay at Mclaren.
I think the lack of news thing is a good explanation.
JB is probably the most down to earth guy, but come on the guy has been paid millions to drive a toy for a living with the bonus of model wives and all the other perks of F1. Meanwhile, Jan is barely out of childhood driving a toy for big money as the son of a famous driver. I’m not concerned for them. Williams should have left Felipe hanging until the end of the season instead of being nice and signed FA to a one-year deal (might not have happened but it would be a possibility). By the second race of next season everyone will have forgotten about a few months when Jenson didn’t get to do a proper farewell tour…
Interesting thinking, Nick. I’d have liked FA even on a yearly deal to Williams. Maybe he’s have liked it, also. It’s too much serial monogamy, almost, why should a little dalliance prove both interesting and beneficial to all? And for Williams, it might have destabilized their competitor(s) usefully. It may all be down to knowing that Mercedes engine, and once you have it sussed… which might have been a good thing for FA. A good What If, that i’ll remember in the coming season..
As it’s been stated many times on this blog. McLaren and certainly Ron Dennis do not view fans as their priority. Ron’s only focus at present is to take control of McLaren at all cost.. He would sign Maldonado ahead of Alonso if it helped him achieve that goal.The short term impact on results or on the fans would not bother him.
I don’t think it’s a problem because it’s not very nice for either Button or Magnussen, they are after all contractors and so this is normal for anyone who works on a contract rather than full time basis.
However, what this is bringing out into the open, is that no-one appears to be in overall control at McLaren and the likely financial issues they are trying to solve. Given that they are about to embark on a fairly risky journey with Honda this year, then you’d be hoping for a bit of stability and clear direction from the top to get through what is inevitably going to be difficult (already proven by the issues in testing.)
From my outside view based purely on my experience of companies going through board room battles and facing financial issues, then it’s very destabilising for the people working there and will impact the normal day to day operations no matter how hard they try not to let it.
There is trouble afoot at McLaren and unfortunately I get the sense that next year is going to be a painful one no matter who is sitting in the cars.
Thanks, Joe.
A sane interpretation, based on real information regarding the situation at McLaren, not sensationalism.
“Methinks that grumbling fans are probably not that important in the overall scheme of things.” OK, I’ll bite. That is a disgraceful comment to make. No fans, no sponsors and no F1. JB and KM have been treated like something the cat dragged in, and you think that’s fine?
As I have written elsewhere: take a look at McLaren some time and you will see a quite extraordinary empire that is doing very well with or without fans. This is not a grubby little racing team from 30 years ago.
Not a grubby little racing teams from 30 years ago?. The cars might be slicker.The motor homes more palatial, but me thinks!, a certain RD is as grubby as ever.
Which just goes to show that you don’t know Ron.
Grubby! was your choice of word Joe.But never presume who knows who, Six stages of separation comes to mind.
So, you don’t know Ron then!
Actually I did meet him once Joe. it was many years ago in Silverstone, and very courteous he was too!.
Good for you
I can tell Joe is positioned in the depths of the paddock, as nobody on the outside would dare make that comment! Did Marlboro, West and Vodafone not want people looking at the car? For me the argument is that if you want to sell overpriced merchandise, Type-Rs or fancy Supercars, you need a fanbase that aspires to be a part of your brand. Regardless of what is going on for real, they at least need to give the preception of respect towards their drivers…and fans.
And now to copy/paraphrase two comments to make a respectful point that I accept runs the risk of incurring Joe’s wrath:
“Methinks that grumbling fans are probably not that important in the overall scheme of things.”
(paraphrasing) “I’m kind of annoyed more people don’t subscribe to GP+ – it’s a great product”.
Even though out of context, those comments are not unrelated, and I say that as someone who has previously subscribed, and will probably subscribe again to GP+.
Well, why should I not be annoyed? too many people want everything for free. If you want quality you have to pay. This blog is just a taster.
Yes of course the blog is a taster for your paid stuff Joe. But it’s a bit more than ‘just a taster’ perhaps.
I’m thinking of the time and effort you put in to writing the blog material in the first place. A lot of what you post is well written, well thought through and brings perspectives quite different to anybody else’s work. This reflects an old hand’s professional pride in your standing as an insider to this curious little micro-world of F1
Then there’s the time and effort you must set aside from your days to monitor and in many cases respond to your blog readers, many of them devoted readers and supporters. Having that sort of following is pretty unusual for a journalist of any stripe I would have thought.
I imagine that it must be satisfying to be seen as an oracle. Good on you sport, you’ve done the hard yards and you’re still doing them.
Yes, the blog must be instrumental in getting people to sign up for GP+ or to attend your ‘Audience with Joe’ sessions. Maybe it sells some of your books too.
But methinks the blog is a bit more than ‘just a taster’.
I don’t think one should try to “rise above” taking work and business and all things personally. But it might not need to be displayed. I see pot shots and swipes taken at you, in places I might not care for, but it can’t be all good advertising. I mean, consider the new fan, and what they might believe is credible. I don’t know, but it’s your image, not mine. Nonetheless if affects things negatively, why display? I both like “knowing” your character, and whilst cavalier to the point of deciding for the moment in actively creating a personality driven business, myself, I can see the caveats.
But that is exactly how this on and on and ongoing situation is making the team look – mismanaged, with no clear direction from the top and in fact no idea who is at the top and actually calling the shots.
Yes, I’m sure it will be resolved eventually, but how much harm will have been done in the meantime?
The fact that McLaren is now a very successful group of companies is good news for them and their employees, when as is looking ever more likely, F1 disappears up it’s exhaust pipe and there is no series for the McLaren Racing Team to be part of.
Don’t the grumbling fans foot the wage bill for Ron Dennis et al?
Not really, no.
Not so sure about that. No fans, no ‘sport’, no interest, no advertisers. Really, don’t you think that, in the end, the fans are what it’s all about? Yes, in the short term the ‘business model’ of FOM works, but after the short term what happens? I know Bernie can get X million dollars from Russia, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, et al, but at some point it has to end. Then what? There has to be a reason people watch races; take that away and the value is zero. I’m pretty close to being an X-fan. And I could buy a Rolex (if I wanted to, which I don’t).
Driver decisions are not for the public to decide. It is not a game show!
Doesn’t BE have quite a presence in the driver market? Keep the right drivers in the right places so the fans stay interested/territories keep their appeal?
Not so much these days
Now that’s a game show I’d watch!
Now that would be something: The Apprentice: F1! “Your performance has not been within the limits that define what should be considered to be satisfactory, your employment prospects with us are moving considerably from medium to short term.” Which would be an approximation of Ronspeak (I always your quip about El Ron de Cuba from a few years ago, Joe) for “you’re fired.”
I meant to say “I always remember your quip about El Ron de Cuba”…
Joe, I’m not sure anyone here is saying that the fans should have a choice…we get that…just a decision would be nice. As somebody mentioned above, a key reason is that JB is British and we like him (as do you from what I gather)…if the decision were between two non British drivers, I dare say there would be far less ‘grumbling’.
I just read a few things (Twitter etc) that seemed to suggest that McLaren was losing face because it was not making decisions. I thought these were daft.
They *are* losing face because of it, but not due to the direct connection you’re making.
Statements made by Ron since he became active in the F1 team again:
1. “We will win a race this year”.
2. “We will announce a title sponsor by x”.
3. “We will announce our drivers by Dec 1”.
4. “We will announce our drivers after a board meeting on Thursday 4th”.
How many of those statements came true Joe?
Making those statements and not fulfilling them is a far bigger issue than whether Jenson gets to stay or not and I’m surprised you can’t see that.
To everyone else, McLaren looks like a headless chicken and far more directionless than they did when Whitmarsh was in charge. Again, not about a single statement, but a season of not delivering on promises not limited to the driver market.
Frankly, as bad as Whitmarsh’s McLaren was performing, it was already on it’s way to righting itself as the moves made to secure the services of better engineers was already in progress and I believe the Honda link was already being talked about also.
Where has all of Ron’s bravado gotten him and McLaren exactly? Nowhere.
Frankly after a season of proving he’s full of hot air, I’m surprised any sponsors will even entertain his pitches at this point. Of course I’m exaggerating as F1 certainly has a certain lure to it, but still, anyone would take his future predictions of performance with a grain of salt based on this seasons promises…well, if they had any sense at least.
I know you don’t like to proven wrong on your own blog, but in this case, you’re just plain wrong. Deal with it.
> To everyone else, McLaren looks like a headless chicken and far more directionless than they did when Whitmarsh was in charge.
That. I am not a great admirer of Ron Dennis as a person, perhaps unfairly, but I’ve always -hugely- respected his competence and effectiveness. Now I am beginning to wonder just a little if his time has passed. I can remember thinking at various times that each of Patrick Head, Gordon Murray and John Barnard would be at the top of F1 for another twenty years. And each of them eventually found themselves men of the past.
And, I know, my opinion is worthless. So, so long as no-one who has real influence is thinking anything similar, no worries, then.
I’m not commenting on driver choices but rather suggesting that, in the end, fans do foot the bills. It might be through a circuitous route, but in the end it is we, the fans, who pay the bills for F1.
Did you buy anything from McLaren this year? Did you choose any products because of the association? If the answer is yes, then you did, in a very small way, contribute to McLaren. If the answer is no, then the answer is no.
If I watch F1 on pay TV I certainly am contributing to McLaren. The route may be long, but I’m simply one of the end users of the circus. Without us there would be no one at the races; if no one attended races the promoters wouldn’t be able to pay Bernie. If Bernie doesn’t get paid the teams don’t get their annual share from CVC, etc. etc………..
I think the answer is yes, otherwise F1 would not exist.
You are. Every penny helps.
Don’t agree. Without fans there’s no F1 and no McLaren. I’m sure McLaren have good reasons but I disagree that fans are not important when choosing a driver, as you’ve said Ferrari makes most of its money in merchandise these days, they don’t want to mess that up by not thinking about their market!
Take a look at the McLaren company some time and then ask the question again. Would McLaren exist without fans? Of course it would. It’s an extraordinarily successful business outside racing and it is growing all the time.
I think people forget that McLaren have in the past made decisions about drivers quite late on, Brundle in ’94 is one example I think. Perhaps McLaren could have handled the situation better, but given the power struggle going on it’s not much of a surprise that they’ve delayed announcing Alonso and also picking his team mate. I’m sure McLaren could survive outside of F1, people forget it’s not just an F1 team.
Fans will always feel entitled and you have to be careful about managing expectations least you fall into a PR disaster which can if not handled correctly damage the brand. But I don’t think McLaren is anywhere near that yet.
But would the McLaren Group exist without customers? That’s the real question. It’s not a direct line, but one does lead to the other, especially for a business where F1 is key to marketing.
Are you a McLaren customer? What have you ever bought from them?
It doesn’t matter whether Mike is a McLaren customer, it is important whether what he says can be applied to McLaren customers. One McLaren car owner posted on this blog to suggest it does.
Well in that case I guess we can expect McLaren to go out of business…
Without an up turn in performance on the track, the loss of sponsors, the lack of a new title sponsor, management upheaval that proposition you outline sounds not completely implausible.
Utter tosh.
You’re entitled to your opinion but like I said, while its a highly UNLIKELY scenario (but not impossible), bigger commercial entities have gone bust despite having a far more robust business model.
It is nice to know I’m allowed to have an opinion on my own blog, so good of you to grant me that privilege.
I can only apologise if my voicing an alternative perspective has irked you somewhat – that was never the intention. I have simply stated facts on the above thread. Nothing more, nothing less.
How many people buy Ferraris and yet care -nothing- for the opinions about Ferraris held by people who don’t own them and can’t afford them?
How many Ferraris would be sold if their current customers continued to enjoy them just as much – but knew that everyone else they ever met would think driving one marked them out as a total loser?
What do you think makes Mclaren extraordinarily successful outside racing?
I totally agree Joe.
As you have mentioned previously, K-Mag is the obvious choice at McLaren, so any delays can only help JB’s chances.
I saw the pair of them at an event today in Edinburgh, and that both are still playing the game suggests to me that decisions are still being made behind the curtains.
That a team such as McLaren is still debating its driver line-up in December says all one needs to know about the state of Formula 1.
Cheers,
Steven
Not just ‘grumbling fans’ but any sort of ‘fan’. Accept it; we’re just not important in the wider scheme of things in F1. I get that and have done for some while. It’d be bonkers to suggest otherwise. Whatever next? I suppose the next thing we fans will be complaining about is that we don’t feel any ‘connection’ with the sport!! F1 is a business tool first and foremost – for a couple of hours every other Sunday it also doubles as a form of ‘entertainment’. If you want to feel ‘wanted’, ‘valued’ – feel some ‘connection’ etc then….sorry….but you’re following the wrong sport!
I wouldn’t take it too personally. There’s no correlation between the business of any sport and its fan base… football being the prime example.
Always strikes me as curious that, at the opposite end of the spectrum, the dedicated audience for athletics year-in year-out is in the thousands – and yet governments spend billions on the Olympics.
A good measure of F1’s true fan base is the old FIA/FOTA fan survey. It was announced and promoted worldwide, the public was told at every opportunity that the results would steer how the sport was run – and how many responses did it get? Fewer than 90,000 at its peak. So out of the alleged half billion ‘fans’ of the sport, fewer than one in six thousand cared enough to make their voice heard on how the sport was run.
In short: as long as the other 5,999 ‘fans’ tune in to F1 like some sort of dayglo wallpaper, buy sufficient tickets and hospitality at enough races and demonstrate a measurable influence on their brand awareness and spending patterns, then the true fan is never going to be heard.
In an October interview with Martin Brundle Ron Dennis said he would bring “firmness and decisiveness” back to McLaren.
Little sign of that so far…no title sponsor after RD promising one would appear mid-season and now Boullier, Dennis and the whole board can’t decide what to do…why don’t they just ask Fernando?
I see Jenson’s reaction was a single ‘speechless’ emoticon…class
I think there is a big picture that you may be missing. The ownership of the company is in play on the next few weeks and perhaps some feel it is not the moment to choose because they don’t know who will own the team.
By that are you implying …
1. The two camps at Mclaren favoring Kevin and Jenson are equally strong and they cant make much headway without deciding who the majority stakeholder and all objectivity doesn’t count for much in the end.
2. If Ron comes to power in six weeks time, it will be the Dane driving in 2015. I am assuming Ron is in favor of Kevin, given his recent all out attempts to woo Danish sponsors
3. The fact driver decision at Mclaren is no longer about racing craft. talent, car development potential et all but about sponsorship potential, which confirms that they are no longer in the same league as Ferrari, Merc and RedBullm atleast on this count.
4, Alonso has still not signed all required paperwork and is waiting for some assurances and guarantees, which could be a reason for the indecision.
I don’t believe I implied any of that.
Perhaps not, but the poster is absolutely correct.
If McLaren select a driver based on how much money he’s able to bring to the team, then McLaren will have hired a pay driver. Teams that hire pay drivers are not the “A” teams of Formula One. They are the B, C, and D teams.
If this was the plan presented to the board, there’s little wonder that McLaren’s board rejected it. It’s in violation of everything the team has ever stood for. McLaren does not hire drivers based on the amount of money they can bring, but on their skill.
If a driver scoring just 43% of his teammate’s points is preferentially chosen for the seat while “just happening” to bring truckloads of his countryman’s cash, the conclusion will be obvious.
No amount of spin by McLaren’s media team would be able to hide the ugly truth that they’d hired a pay driver.
Indeed. A team v b teams. With so many “pundits” saying that the level of talent in f1 was greater than Schumachers era, I would be fascinated to actually know pay drivers ratio v those hired on talent alone in 80s, 90s, 00s,10s.
Perhaps it’s nostalgia, but for me the 80s & 90s had more talent on the grid. Schumacher era included.
Joe perhaps an article on such in your GP+ magazine (I will never unsubscribe! Keep up the good work)
Thank you for your enthusiasm, it has really helped to keep me energised. Intelligent passion and enthusiasm is good to hear.
Three out of four isn’t bad.
So is there a risk that Ron may be ousted from the company he (to all intents and purposes) founded?
Is Alonso’s signing certain, or is it dependent on whether or not Ron is in charge?
Yes. But then again he sold the shares and took the dose so don;t feel sorry for him.
If he could speak for himself, I’d like to think the person who the team is named after would disagree about who founded Mclaren
Long time reader, first time commenter here. I just wanted to point out that the price of JB’s merchandise on the McLaren store website is cheaper than Magnussen’s right now. Could this possibly be a sign that McLaren is trying to get rid of all things Jenson, maybe the driver himself?
I think that most fans, including myself feel that it would be a shame if his career ends like this. He deserves much more than an off season send off.
Interesting.
That is one interesting data point..Lam Peters ! Good stuff !
No, it appears to be a bit of both, some is cheaper, some is more expensive, some ifs the same. Interesting theory, but not the case
Or that they expect a new line of JB merchandise next year..
Another possibility could be that with Jenson being a former world champ they had much more stock of his stuff to start with. It is interesting, like Joe says, but rather like the decision making process itself it’s impossible to read anything into without knowing more information!
It may just indicate that they’ve got a lot more JB stuff left over to flog…
Or……….clearing stock for new livery? Doesn’t matter too much about Kevins stuff because he won’t be getting new design?
Just being optimistically silly, of course.
Good find.
The more McLaren takes to make a decision the more incompetent they look. This is a team that has only won 1 constructor title in the past 10 years. And it’s no wonder, they can’t even take a decision, let alone a championship.
Regardless what McLaren’s motivation and rationale are, I can’t image that Honda Corp. is pleased at having their brand attached to this “indecisiveness”. Whatever is happening behind the scenes, how is it playing on main street?
The Intoxicating draw of the sport to the driver must be very large for JB to stay around through Ron’s drawn out financial ambitions with the potential for rejection fairly high or maybe JB would also enjoy Ron going out on his shield instead.
I agree that the views of the fans don’t count in a decision like this. If, as reported, RD is trying to raise investment funds from Danish backers in order to buy the shares, it would be natural for him to hold out the prospect of retaining Magnussen as a potential consequence of their support. To hire Magnussen at this stage would be to give up this lever when his negotiations were incomplete, which would be stupid. If the Danes were to pull out, maybe Jenson might still get the nod, but the body language seems to me to suggest that Jenson knows he is most likely out.
Well it looks like the one agenda item they took care of was to build a Spanish Mclaren Honda site, I wonder why, which of JB or KM is Spanish ? There is also a chinese one though so maybe thats why Ron was saying there is a fourth possibility….
The thing that I don’t understand is it seems like the majority shareholders don’t agree with Ron’s decision yet they don’t remove him even though they could, but instead let him have the chance to become the main shareholder and dictate his choices on them. Why would they want to remain minority shareholders then? Or are they actually betting that he can’t pull it off and give him the nudge….
McLaren needs to s**t or get off the pot. I’m a Button fan, used to be a McLaren fan. Seems to me that all things equal they should keep Magnussen, but my main concern is that they actually let one of them know they need to make other plans for the future; people actually do need to plan for their futures and this dangling situation is crap. Anyway, maybe the one who is let go will be the lucky one- I don’t foresee McLaren being good for a while. I think the real loser, besides financially, is Alonso.
Why? To satisfy your desire to know? Stop and think about it for a while… The team has other things that are more important and as both drivers want to stay You wouldn’t walk into an art gallery and tell the owner he needs more Rothko and less Jackson Pollock. Or maybe you would… Risking being told where to stick your paint brush…
If I don’t like what the gallery is doing I stop going. If enough people stop going the gallery shuts up shop. The gallery owner can continue thinking he was right, but nobody is paying them any attention.
McLaren are *my* team. I am disappointed in them.
If McLaren is your team, you should be able to understand what they are doing and why.
No, you seem to be conflating the desire of some to know with the disdain those like me have for Mclaren’s apparent (I stress “apparent”) lack of concern and respect for its current drivers. That said, I’m not sure why you seem rather dismissive of the importance of pleasing fans. I know there are complicating factors re. the decision but given the opaque manner this has been handled, it’s no surprise that fans are frustrated. I certainly wouldn’t walk into a gallery and demand Rothko over Pollock (personally, I prefer Pollock anyway), but if the owner of a gallery down my street had a collection of paintings by both and due to reasons unknown to fans of genius delayed the decision to display either, I’d grow fairly frustrated. F1 and art galleries both have some baseline need to have people look; fans do matter. And so does the respectful treatment of a company’s employees. From my perspective, that treatment is the greater issue with most fans. It is for me.
Joe, is at least Alonso’s place secure at the team? Or can we really not know for sure…?
I am sure that FA and McLaren is a done deal.
Which baffles further…why wouldn’t they publicly announce the one driver they’ve done the deal with? Do you think there is some crisis behind the closed doors at Woking?
Define the word “crisis”?
Things going wrong and not as expected, with a solution not in immediate sight…
That is called life.
“Define the word “crisis”?”
A very strong-willed, passionate voter with only 25% of the vote?
Parallels between Ron and BE? Both appear to lack power when they need it. Generally, F1 seems to be suffering from a power vacuum at the moment?
I never liked Jenson Button and don’t understand why anyone would. Average as hell, acts like some over-friendly male air hostess. He is the kind of guy who would schmooze with your grandparents, he never came across as a real racing driver.
Perhaps you should meet the guy before writing such tosh.
Goodness! I cannot think of anther sportsman who would make a better role model.
Mostly. But I can’t quite forgive Button entirely for the way he dropped Gateshead Thunder rugby league team in the brown and smelly stuff when he owned it.
“(Jenson) never came across as a real racing driver”
In their time together at McLaren, Jenson scored more points than the current world champion. Ok that’s not the whole story and Hamilton blitzed him in qualifying but look at all the stats and he did put in a good show against Hamilton. I remember thinking Jenson was doing well then too.
I’m not a Jenson fan but, come on, he’s demonstrably not “average” unless you think Hamilton’s a donkey too…
He seems to be a nice guy and a gentlemanly racer and I like it when people like that show you don’t need to be all testosterone and dirty tricks to win.
I’ll grant that his team choice has left a little to be desired over the years!
Don’t feed the troll.
Hi Joe, I agree and don’t really understand this pity party people are creating for the drivers. Pretty sure their lives are quite nice compared to many. Do you know if JB had any meaningful discussions with other teams, or was waiting for McLaren his only realistic option?
I am sure his management chatted here and there
I think you’re absolutely right about fans. I also think there are a lot of fans that will be offended by the idea and not want to see the reality. Over the years, I’ve seen lip service paid to fan opinion, but it’s usually very selective and serving some ulterior motive.
Is Button really popular?yes he is known by the British public but there is no intensity of support Button.he is mainly been a media product in recent times and tool to needle Lewis,and thats now being reflected by the big outrage being the the few British f1 journos.
In this age of social media where is the so called fans outrage,apart from a few vedeos by Kravitz ,blundell ,Culthard and a some writers acting like its the greatest injustice of the century.
whats being lost here is that Mclaren is bringing Alonso because Button has proven he is just good enough.he failed to lead motivate and inspire the team.
Under Button leadership the team has lost sponsors not gain,so much for his so called popularity.
Theres a cringey pathetic air of desperation by Button,playing the victim.Dude if you so valuable and in demand,just go to another team or do something else,you not Bruce Mclaren son who the team owes.you are well paid for your service.
The desperation is in being paired to be paired with Alonso to piggy back on Alonso rep.
No chance of Honda buying in then Joe.. Or is that going to be Ron’s end game. Get the team successful and sell control of it to Honda then.. A bigger question than the drivers for next year has to be where there money is gonna come from.. This is year 2 or 3? Without a major sponsor?
No I don’t think Honda want equity. They made that mistake twice already.
Button didn’t lead a team – what about dragging a Brawn to a world championship
A schmoozer and victim , Button and Webber have more class than the whole of the remaining petulant scholboys put together
I’m looking forward to WEC next year at least as a fan I feel slightly wanted
The Brawn was the fastest car over the season. I hardly think he dragged it to anything.
Nonetheless, he was World Champion, which is the point of the exercise. The skill is to be in the right car at the right time. He did that. Don’t knock it.
the brawn was the best car only until the big teams had DD’s as well …then they fell behind due to lack of funds
button did 2 things …he racked up the wins while he had the top car , then he racked up what points he could to be champion rather than listen to the cries that he should try for more wins to win in style ; a class act
I can think of another recent driver who could have won the WDC if he hadn’t taken the attitude ..I have to win another race
Ha, sorry I had to laugh at that, he hardly dragged that brawn to the title, the car started off 2 seconds a lap faster then anything else. Yes it was caught by the end but with points margin Button had built in the first 6 races he then did just enough to maintain it through to the finish once the red bulls had caught up.
Button is a nice guy and a very good driver but he is not a great one, if the car is there then he’ll win but he would never be able to do the things Alonso has done in that dog of a Ferrari as Jenson unable to seemingly outperform a bad car.
Which was the first time? BAR and the Harvey Postelwaite project or something before that?
1960s
Come on Phil – John Surtees? Who STILL hasn’t been knighted. HAS HE MR CAMERON?!
I believe it was the Honda in the 1960s that was made of Magnesium, which Surtees (? Correct me if I’m wrong) refused to drive at one point, which was just as well for him as it resulted in the nasty firey death of his team mate…
One of the cars was made of magnesium. The man in question was Jo Schlesser. Rouen 1968
Perhaps not but in these days of brand synergy and the like, I do wonder if the McLaren-Honda relationship is viewed by Honda as being much like the old WIlliams-BMW one – which might mean the cars being decked out in Honda colours even if Honda does not own any of the team.
Pesky fans, with the temerity to grumble! On forums! Oh, the impertinence! How dare they? And think of poor Ron, all this grumbling on forums by motor racing must be getting him terribly upset. I don’t know what the world is coming to.
Storms and teacups come to mind.
More like a ripple
Fans can think and say what they like. Whether Mclaren has to take notice is a different matter. Mclaren can do very well without fans, but a marketing team looking to stick ther brand on a car will have a very close look at who their target audience likes. So if Hugo Boss think they can sell more suits with Jenson than Kevin they’ll say so. If Lego don’t think they can sell lego with a lego man in the car, they’ll vote with their feet too. Mclaren doesn’t have to take notice of sponsors, current or future, either, but they might.
Personally I hope they choose Button, at which point Button tells them where to stick it and goes to WEC for a new challenge! But that’s just my view as a fan.
Hugo Boss has left McLaren
The thing that riles people is that the choice is not rocket science, and people want to know why it is taking so long. They think it is unfair on both drivers, as both of them may well have other non F1 options, but cannot sign these unless they are sure to lose their current seats.
The issue over which driver to pick is easy, KMag has shown up fairly well, but needs more time to develop and a year out might well help. JB would be good for Honda, not only for PR but because he has more experience, which might well help them get more points and even wins in the right circumstances. From JB’s point of view, I’ve heard that he’d really like to compare himself with Alonso, and that attitude is great, he’s not shying away from some serious hard work, and for Alonso, JB would be ideal, as he is a long term known quantity, and Alonso could trust JB’s input and experience. However as Joe says, it is probably more to do with the company structure than any other issue. Having said that, like the rest of F1, McLaren is a mess at present, and that goes for the whole shebang!
Wow, after 34 years. Is this why Ron has been wearing a blue and white check shirt this year?
There’s some harsh comments on here about Jenson, considering: a) He won the 2009 title by leading a team, blowing his team mate into the weeds. b) In 3 years as team mate to the current WDC, he outscored him in total points and twice finished higher in the Championship. c) In rubbish cars over the last 2 years he’s beaten his team mate, and by some distance this year. The fact he’s a good egg as well a team player seems to be the icing on the cake. As for sponsors, what’s that got to do with a driver’s ability?I’d rather have Button on my team than the devisive, moody Alonso.
Not from me.
Sorry, I meant the comments; not the article.
“Hugo Boss has left McLaren”
Which implies they don’t like the way the team market themselves…perhaps that’s due to bad PR….oh hold on..
No it doesn’t imply anything of the sort. It implies that Boss wants to
Be associated with Mercedes Benz
…and not McLaren.
There’s no crisis at Mclaren, but there’s one heck of as talemate! Will be better either way once that is resolved and whoever owns the team can move forward as they see fit. Who knows, maybe we’ll even get Button and Magnusson and a large pot of cash to payoff Alonso!
And you are? A McLaren board member?
Agreed all tied up to ownership. Fans also aren’t looked after by F1, but this isn’t Mclaren’s fault, in fact they lead the way. Look at all the demo runs they use to do around town and cities world over. Yes this was because of vodafone, but they at least did something.
McLaren are a company making a decision about employees, why should fans (or customers in effect) have a say on this decision?
The interesting thing is if Mr Dennis sticks to his statement which is he just wants to win, and the best way to do this is to have the best 2 drivers he can in his car. Out of the options he seems to have this would be Button/Alonso rather than KMAG. Harsh but true
Will RD’s position at McLaren be in danger if he cannot gather enough money to buy a controlling stake of the company? and are McLaren Automotive (the sports car manufacturer) and the F1 team under the same company structure?
They are separate companies with different shareholdings.
Dear Joe,
I always find interesting to read your comments. However today I am a bit surprised. Whilst I agree with you that it’s the duty of McLaren board to decide the drivers, I wouldn’t be so dismissive of fans that are disappointed.
Additionally, you often – 100% correctly – underline how the overall F1 management often makes mistakes (promotion of races in the US… empty stands elsewhere…) and neglects the fans’ requests.
Now, McLaren are doing the same, given that an overwhelming majority is supporting JB (who, by the way, is a great person!) and that, anyway, everybody is looking for some clarity. Why don’t you simply say that they are in a difficult situation? Instead of saying “grumbling fans are probably not that important in the overall scheme of things”… Which might be true, but it is still a bit unpleasant to say…
I presume that you know more than you can write.
I am not saying that fans are not important. I am saying that fans do not decide who drives for a team. It is self-evident that they are ill-equipped to make such decisions.
You’re confusing fans with an interest in current developments and being an active decision-maker. Most followers of the sport are not stupid enough to think they ought to have input into the decision-making process itself. What they are appalled with is the atrocious manner in which this company communicates its business making process. If this company intends to float itself on the stock market it needs to do a better job on making good on its statements of intent. Not a company many investors would be encouraged to invest in given this latest evidence of ‘dithering’ (irrespective of the root cause of these roadblocks).
In terms of driver performance data, they have as much as they can get
Therefore the only reason to delay a decision is a commercial one pertaining to ownership and/or sponsorship
Congratulations to Joe on writing a sufficiently provocative couple of paragraphs to generate traffic to your blog for a day or so.
Of course British fans want to know what will happen with Jenson next year, and believe they are entitled to this information. F1 is a show, it has been for years.
F1 is also a business, there are 100’s of parameters to consider when making a decision such as driver line up. One that isn’t getting mentioned is that Jenson might not want to drive for the team in 2015. Mclaren may be trying to persuade him. He’s driven a dog of a Honda before and based on EVERYTHING we the fans have actually seen of the Honda engine, so far there is little reason to believe they will be in a position to win races next year. Why would Jenson want to spend the next couple of seasons developing an engine for some other driver to come along and see the benefits?
Another factor could be SKY and BBC coverage, yes there are many other broadcasters involved with the sport, but I can’t see 2 cash cows for FOM being too happy at the prospect of having only one British driver on the grid next year.
Whilst the Mclaren group makes money, I don’t believe the F1 team is an attractive commercial prospect at the moment, as has been evidenced over the past 2 years. Another year of transition / development is not likely to change that. At some point this will start to pinch the way the team goes racing. Alonso will bring partners to the team, which will disguise some of these issues, but there is something not right with the team.
I did wonder, when there was an announcement of no announcement a month or so ago, from reading JS articles and posts here, if the delay announcing drivers is more to do with whether Ron Dennis will be running the F1 division of McLaren?
The run around to get funding, and the public comments by RD and Lego regarding their sponsorship decision (declining to sponsor KMag or McLaren) today, seemed to support that thought.
The delay naming drivers is only a sensational issue from some F1 websites not in the overall context of the team or F1. Where it does start to matter is when it seems to go from Strategy to Cock-up. That’s when the sponsors start to get concerned and right now, McLaren aren’t weighing down their race cars with too many sponsor stickers.
As a fan and interested observer, I’m left thinking “trouble at mill” – I would think a Sponsorship Director of a major multinational may very well end up thinking the same.
I think it’s notable that while not announcing their drivers, as promised, yesterday they did issue a press release about their “initiatives” in the road car market.
PS It’s a shame there isn’t any formatting options in the comments some of the above I would have liked to put in italics.
Is it a fair comment to say that driver appointments and contract deliberations such as these often happen and have happened for a good long while? The difference being now that in 2014, every small detail gets over-analysed and scrutineered by social media and the internet.
I am sure there were all sorts of driver decisions that could have been perceived as “unfair” during the 80s – we simply did not hear about them until they appeared in the printed media.
Why do we like JB? Well if you go to the formerf1doc blog you will see a few weeks back, a link to a very excellent monologue by Derek Warwick in which he says that he knew he would never be one of the greats because he did not have the necessary killer instinct, that streak that means he will if necessary, do something nasty or borderline illegal to win.
JB does not have that instinct either, it makes him a nicer chap, he is the epitome of British good middle class upbringing, we like him. How far would you trust some others at 200mph? But then I am of the baby boomer generation, maybe what used to be decency has now all been replaced by Euro laws (I blame Tony Blair) and everything should be
slash and burn, dog eat dog, survival of the cleverest law benders.
So maybe JB’s time in F1 is over, he doesn’t fit any more, the shiny face of the sport has been tarnishing in the acid reflux of bought off courts, apparently unfair contracts, the exposure of secret rules, the underlying theme that maybe what some of us think, will be verified by the EU Commission and we will end up with a different arrangement. But don’t hold your breath, what we have at the moment is the result of a previous EU commission on F1.
Maybe we need someone nastier than JB……….!
Actually, it is called being sporting. Sportsman can win cleanly and neatly. Jenson showed that this year. Nico played the Dick Dastardly role and was not good enough.
Actually I’m thinking of next year and times past.
What I find a little bit funny/stupid about this whole McLaren/Honda gig is that Honda is investing all this money to beat the team that was Honda 6 years ago.
Joe,
would it be fair to say that Ron’s position is on the line if he were to loose the struggle to take control of the board?
If so it would be quite ironic considering that less than a year ago the board reinstated him as CEO at the expense of Martin Whitmarsh.
Not really, that was why it happened.
If fans did not care or were not passionate you would not be travelling the world to report on the circus.
Really? Did you buy any magazine or publication that I wrote for this year? I’d like to know because that tells me whether I should give away all the stuff on this blog for free, or whether I should sell it to people with customers. The reason that conventional journalism is dying is that people will not part with cash and want everything for free. All I can say is that you get what you pay for in most cases. Here, you get more tun that, in the hope that you will sign up for even better content.
Joe, much touched on but no real depth to what is going on with the equity struggle at McLaren. Clearly this, or the sponsorship search, is the reason for the lack of announcements, but I cant find much, reliable or not, on what is going on.
Could you see Honda loaning Ron the cash for a short or medium term, in order to get back on the straight and narrow, or is just too much involved?
Also, would it damage your reputation and relationships to speculate what is likely to happen to F1 in the next few years? clearly the CVC and Bernie thing cant last forevee. Are tehre just too many inponderables or do you not want to stick your head above the parapit?
do you know how the process of buying out a business partner works? does partner A just show up with partner B’s share in $$$ and that’s it? can partner B say that he doesn’t want to sell no matter how much $$$ is on the table? or does a partner have to sell if the other partner shows up with enough $$$? interesting struggles at mclaren.
It depends on a million things. In this case, I believe that RD said he would arrive with a certain amount of money, at a certain point and the others agreed to sell him shares if he did so.
Many… actually, most F1 fans don’t seem to realize that there is life after Formula 1. Jenson Button is a professional racing driver and he stated repeatedly that he is not going to retire. The later in the off-season he is dropped by the team (if that happens) the less chance he has of getting a drive elsewhere, because contracts for most good drives in any given season are signed at the end of the previous season.
truly yours,
Captain Obvious.
Joe I always read your well informed opinions and I am sure this is one designed to raise comment and indignation plus stimulate loyalty to Jenson. However if fans pay so little part in the business of Mclaren why do they (Mclaren)bother at all with F1, after all without fans, sponsorship is pointless. Why would SAP and Mobil pay millions if no one looked at the race and the logos on the cars. If F1 is such a small part of their business why do they bother?
If they are such smart business people how come they seem incapable of making a decision, they kept on saying that they were collecting more data, how much more data can you need. One can only hope that the people who are currently driving the train are not the ones who decide tactics during the race.
It was not designed for any reason other than to bring some much-needed reality into the discussion
“One can only hope that the people who are currently driving the train are not the ones who decide tactics during the race”.
China 2007 – Hamilton needs new tyres, is losing too much lap time, you can see the tyre carcass where there is no rubber, what happens – nothing – until it’s too late!
It appears that they’ve moved from the pit wall to the boardroom!
I think it’s a shame that if Button’s last race was Abu Dhabi he didn’t get to officially sign off in style, as a popular ex-world champion that’s the least he should be able to do.
This long, drawn out decision making process makes me wonder if McLaren might be thinking they’ll be running 3 cars next year?
I think some fans want to know for purely selfish reasons, but I think a lot of it is a perceived injustice towards Jenson. He has been there a while. You can argue whether or not he “deserves” to know sooner than later; however, sooner is surely preferable. If he has another contract somewhere else (WEC), is there a time limit for decision? Surely that is plan B, so he would like to know the fate of Plan A soon. Right?
The longer it takes to reach a conclusion, the more I think they are hoping he leaves and takes Plan B on his own, to save them from being the guys who pushed him out without a proper “farewell” to the fans. Jenson fans will surely turn their backs on McLaren for that. Not that McLaren care, as you have already stated.
In any case, I do get what you are saying. Fans have no business deciding the affairs of McLaren, and I agree that they should not. But I think you get it. I think you do understand why fans would be upset.
I am not a Jenson or McLaren fan, and I get it perfectly well…
I think Jenson is terrific, as a racer and a communicator. He does not always qualify well.
jenson has has 5 years at McLaren , won some great races , 3 of those years with the fastest team mate in F1 …how many get that much as well as a WDC
I shall be sad to see him go becomes I believe he still has more in him and he still adds to my enjoyment of F1
but I won’t feel sorry for him if he goes
incidentally , Honda are clearly involved in the Alonso signing ….do you think they will be asked for an opinion on the second driver ? if their engine turns out to be any good McLaren will clearly benefit by being the ‘works’ team even if they supply other teams so there seems logic in keeping them a sweet as possible
incidentally , are santander a major sponsor , am not clear whether they are coming with Alonso , not likely they will stay if not and jenson goes
Joe,
Off topic …but where is Martin whitmarsh ? Just no news on the man at all. How come he hasn’t joined an organization development role at another manufacturer like Stefano Domenicalli at Audi, or is it the gardening leave?
He’s out there somewhere. Resting. Who knows he might get a call if Ron fails to find the money.
Maybe this is simplistic but: Ron is not a fan of Alonso to say the least. In fact I suspect he would do anything to avoid having him drive a Mclaren again. So RD goes to Denmark to raise money to buy control back of the company (to sort of paraphrase Joe), then he has Danish money to keep KM and can also keep JB if he gets enough cash.
The one thing everyone has missed is that the delay in announcing drivers leaves the odd man out with few choices of racing in 2015. Most seats in the other series are filled. That isn’t how you treat employees
He had the choice of signing now for something else, or waiting.
Rightly or wrongly, it does add to the perception that McLaren is a sterile, corporate team, where all decisions are made by a committee.
Is it possible that Ron can’t come up with the funding he needs, gets bought out and leaves the company? That’s got to be Alonso’s dream.
I think the only issue here is a singular inability to do what they say they are going to do. Coming from a deadline sensitive industry (IT) – we always try and set dates that we can achieve. McLaren keep giving dates (real as in “before Abu Dhabi” or intimated “Dec 1st” or “discussed at board meeting”) and then allow them to slide.
It’s all about perception – give a date and stick to it – everyone happy, give a date (real or implied) and miss it everyone hates you.
The driver discussion taking place at a board meeting is intriguing to me. Is that a common thing – to have the driver lineup decision made in the board room, rather than by the team principal? Or is the fact that this decision is left to the board in itself a sign of a power struggle within McLaren?
I am sure it is not a driver discussion at board level. It is a who has the power or ownership or sponsors lined uo that dictates driver choice. There are pros and cons with each of the options. There is not agreement between all the fractions for sure otherwise a decision would have no doubt been made and communicated.
I have the perfect solution, Joe. You buy the team, and then you’d have an excellent platform for making changes to F1. I bet you have enough spare francs stuck in your sofa cushions to get you to 51%.
What makes you think that journalists make any money?
I think it’s interesting that no one is 100% sure that Fernando’s signed as of yet? Perhaps that’s part of the equation?
Frankly it’s all this sort of stuff that is making me seriously consider taking no interest in F1 next year, after following it since I was a kid. Bernie, CVC, the Big teams, the lack of Small teams , the stupid rules the weird countries it now goes to, the rubbish cars and rubbish circuits, the lack of respect for the sport’s history and it’s fans….I’ve followed F1 since I was 7, half a century back, and it is in the absolute worst state that I have ever known it to be, even including the early 1980’s power struggles….if it isn’t a sport, which clearly it ain’t anymore, then what, I wonder, am I doing bothering to look at it anymore?
Answers on a postcard please……..
Understand and empathise with the comments however, was there ever any ‘respect’ for fans? If so, what form did it (or should it) take? I’m not saying there wasn’t (or isn’t now) but I’d struggle to find any evidence that there was since, say, the early 1980s onwards?………As a fan, I’ve always felt that, to the people directly involved in the sport, the fan base was a mere inconvenience (or those of us who spent their hard-earned cash attending the races) and the whole circus existed very much for itself (and it’s sponsors – ooops, sorry, business partners), rather than for the fans?
I guess what I’m saying here is; has there ever been any ‘respect’ from F1 for its fans? Umm……I’m not trying to turn this blog into a football blog (there’s an awful lot that I dislike about the modern game) however, the relationship with its fan base (compared to F1) is an interesting one. My local Premiership club has a close affinity with the community; events that the fans can attend (attended by players); very heavily discounted tickets (£10 and lower) handed out to local schools); club membership for kids; discounted season tickets for individuals and families; links with organisations in the community that works closely with some of society’s less-fortunate individuals etc etc. Does this amount to ‘respect’? I don’t know; perhaps; perhaps not. There’s no denying however, that it seems to build a lot of loyalty and fosters a strong ‘bond’ between the fans (of all ages and not just the Rolex-wearing ones) in the community and the club. My point is that this is a vastly different model from F1 and the older – Rolex -wearing fan base that it appears to want to cater for. I really believe that this blog does more for fans of F1 than the sport does for them itself – which is a tribute to Joe’s hard work but a rather poor reflection on the sport itself.
Well you are correct Nick, in that since Bernie took over, the fanbase has increasingly been marginalised. This took some years, but from the early 1980’s it became clear that once Bernie could rely on the media and sponsors, believing that more people watched his show than were actually living on the planet, at that point, the need for fans became pretty obsolete. This I would suggest happened around 1988-1991. During the 60’s and 70’s there was a real need for fans, as there was little F1 on the tv, and the motorsport media worked hard to keep fans and attract new ones.
These days, and for a long long time, for Bernard F1 is all about his Paddock Club and TV and Dodgy People with Deep Pockets. This is in no way a sustainable business plan, any more than a Ponzi Scheme is. The way things are going, shows that the top of the pyramid has been reached, and people are starting to realize that the Bolt has been picking their pockets very easily.
+1 damian, and it used to be fun to work in too; sadly the protocols, procedures, and so-called clever technology we have to use and adhere to nowadays make what used to be a proud, exclusive, adrenalin-rush “way of life”, as boring and tedious as hell for many employees (and that includes the WC years). Why not quit then? because it pays more than a job in the real world, that’s all
Yes benM, I find that some aspects of motorsport have become rather depressing for me, and sadly the most depressing parts involve F1 these days. Historic racing is becoming more attractive to me, and WRC & MotoGP have been for many years. Although with BT snaffling bike racing, I saw little of it last year. The upside for the media being that I bought motor cycling mags again last year instead of a BT sub!
My best memories of motorsport are from the days of Brands Hatch/Silverstone GPs, of F2 all over the UK, F5000 ( great fun! ) Gp6 2lt Sportscars, Chevrons, Lolas etc, real FF1600, F3, FAtlantic, SuperSaloons, Big Bertha, V8 Capris, F5000 VWs and Skodas…… I’m glad I had all those times, as there is nothing like it now for my kids to watch. I’ve not counted BTCC as motorsport for years, it’s all contrived and mostly about bumpercar activity while trying not to look too obvious….Cleland being the Master of it, and the guy who started the game.
I used to go to BRC rounds until it became 1600 Citroen Championship, boring….now no more it was so boring….but Historic Rallying is really taking off in the UK, and if you ask fans, it’s because they all LOOK DIFFERENT SOUND DIFFERENT and ARE DIFFERENT!!
This is how all racing USED to be! Different F2 cars, Different F1 cars etc etc, the move to everything being all the same is a big part of why motorsport does not attract fans as it used to, imho. And the only way to change it, would seem to be to take most of the money out of it, so that all the wide boys and spives go elsewhere to rip people off…and then maybe motor racing could get it’s mojo back again.
I know it is not only me that has found this F1 season to be less than exciting, and this is just the latest in a line of such seasons that just have not ticked the excitement box for me and others. That is why the grandstands are not full as they were when I started out as a child and were still full as I grew up.
Imho, it’s pointless to say that motorsport has to be relevant to a small section of society who would like us all to live in caves with non animal furs as clothes, they are not interested in the sport, they just want to screw it up enough that those who are, give up and walk away and the sport dies. The upsetting bit is that so many in the sport think that we should pander to the minority as they believe that those elements will then leave our sport alone. That is not the case. Minorities in every aspect of life, are so vocal that they control the way the majority is forced to live these days. The trouble being that the silent majority is just that, silent…and cowed by being bracketed with some specious title if it dares express an opinion that is outside of the Gulag Perspective. I’ve always had opinions, right or wrong, my parents brought me up to have independent thought, however people these days don’t seem to have opinions on much, as it is something frowned upon, and of course there are all the New Born Trolls, who act like a pack of wolves, on any person who expresses some freedom of thought on any subject out there….as I said, depressing really….
I don’t agree. If the trolls come at you, you have to punch a few jaws (figuratively, of course)…
Joe; there speaks the ‘master’ of the trolls. I bet you’ve seen loads during the years of doing this blog? I know we see some that you allow through however, I’m in no doubt that the part of the troll ‘iceberg’ we see is the bit above the waterline.
It is just the tip but I try to be patient. Ask my friends and they will tell you that I have an unnatural calm and an absurd amount of patience, but it is impossible to soak it all up and not get annoyed sometimes.
Damian, I’m assuming by trolls you mean those who run our lives through their regulations and laws (for us in the UK that means the unaccountable and dictatorial EU), in which case I agree with you.
As for the tech side of F1, and motorsport in general, in my years with suppliers, and F1 teams over several years, I see a major element that has played its part in destoying the enjoyment, is IT and CAD/CAM engineering… that’s why everything (with respect to the regs pandering to the green dictacts) is moving towards a comment point of development. As long as so-called designers continue useing IT to design, develop and build, we will have not racing cars, but racing computers; the various software packages used in motorsport will never replace the creativity that comes from the Human mind. Does Adrian Newey use CAD?
There will never be a return to what us “old school” enjoyed, and were priveleged to witness because we are no longer in the Industrial age. Those emotions we were so lucky to experience can never be replaced, so we must either adapt or find something else to repalce them. I gew up with Meccano and cannot now find the spine-tingling feelings, that raw emotion I experienced in the days before IT ran the motor racing show (from karting through to F1). Asides from the technicals, I believe it was you who observed that F1 (etc.) is more about politics now than motor racing… you’re right, working in F1 is now more a case of enduring it, than enjoying it; simply a way to pay the bills.
Yes benM, what you say is how I feel these days, so Historic outings have become a real pleasure and Goodwood is Mecca for me, whereas Silverstone doesn’t do it for me now….and the reference to trolls that you picked up was mostly correct interpretation of my thoughts, other than that there is now a class of troll that demands abject and instant apology, from any person, Public figure or not, who expresses a counter view to any aspect of life that hits the media. These trolls specifically get off on finding grievances with some comment made as a personal view, which allows the trolls to be offended on behalf of some one or something that makes no complaint of it’s own. Hence almost every day someone is apologising for some comment which frankly, in the vast majority of cases, is perfectly sane and sensible. It is the way of the world these days, that the few in number, make the most noise and are readily rewarded for doing so….pathetic in my view, but still that’s how things are now.
It is utterly shameful. It doesn’t matter who they go for, McLaren has just ruined the chances of one of the drivers that they drop securing another seat and they don’ give a flying f…………. I was really looking forward to seeing ALonso and JB pair up but now I am not that interested in the fortunes of the team at all.
Must be awful for these massively talented, multi-millionaires who have actively chosen to hang on for a possible McLaren drive instead of making themselves available for employment elsewhere.
Agree with you, Joe, it’s not the fans that choose the McLaren drivers. Unfortunately it appears, it’s not McLaren that chooses McLaren’s drivers.
Also agree with those who stated previously it looks bad to repeatedly announce deadlines and then fail to meet to them.
Does it appear that McLaren are losing face? If appearances can be selected as one of the factors, I would suggest, yes they have. And worse, the once Ruthless Ron, is seen more as Dithering Dennis. At least, that’s the appearance.
If, as suggested previously, that it is no big deal to select drivers late in the calendar year, would not a better strategy have been, to state months ago, the 2015 McLaren driver choices will be announced in early 2015?
While it may be board room wrangling/power grabs, that is none of our concern as fans. All we see is that McLaren are firmly in last place in the driver lineup competition. Welcome back to F1, Honda!
It seems to me that individual teams are not accountable to fans how could they be? But what is clear is that the team and its sponsors need to have fans on board if the sponsors are looking for maximum return; and why wouldn’t they?
The real issue to me in F1 is: who IS accountable to fans? to me it must me FOM Group, and here their actions over the last 12 months have been truly shocking in their disdain for people that love the sport as much as we do, pay for tickets, buy sponsors product, travel vast distances to see races and buy a hole raft of associated services. I dont like or want a Rolex but I can tell BE that I have spent many times the cost of one just to watch something I love and I don’t appreciate his increasing detachment from reality.
To them it seems its just a rich mans game or power, politics and monetary gain. so the sooner CVC step up and sort it out the better. And it seems moves are afoot.
Joe,
If RD does not find the cash for his majority acquisition, will he be put into a position of selling out his end?
This has the slight whiff of a behind the scenes power struggle, with the resolution of Ron having the chance to buy out, or selling out if he can’t come up with the cash….
Any hint of that anywhere in your tea leaves?
I have no idea what he plans to do. I’d think he would keep his shares and play a waiting game but he might not be involved in the management. We will see.
I really like Jenson, but I don’t think he is “the epitome of British good middle class upbringing”. He’s a charming and intelligent young man, but he definitely has it in him to do something nasty to win (like teaching Lewis a lesson in Canada). His legacy I fear will be forever defined by his years fighting Lewis at McLaren, and not because “he scored more points than Lewis over three years”, but because it showed that he suffers from an inferiority complex. He didn’t compete to win races or championships, he competed solely to beat Lewis. His fans may feel differently, but I don’t think Jenson sees himself as one of the greats, or even deserving of his 09 title, which makes him something of a tragic figure.
Did you really just write that he didn’t compete to win races or championships? Sigh… Jenson, if you are reading this, will you please write in and set this fellow straight.
the old adage is …first you have to beat your team mate ; you ain’t going to win anything if you don’t , are you
It may not wholly be down to KM-JB pro/con’s…. if the team was FA-JB and FA did not come out way ahead of JB (as RD’s actions certainly indicate that opinion), I don’t think RD would care for what that’d say about his judgement re FA vs JB, esp. after apparently doing anything to get FA back, even after the $ ouch that FA gave him.
20 years ago Alain Prost tested the McLaren Peugeot and made up his mind not to re-join the team. With only a few weeks before the season start the team signed Martin Brundle, who waited when he had the chance.
I think today we’re spoilt by the fact that teams seem to announce their driver line ups months in advance. The fact is that sometimes decisions take time and McLaren have a lot of variables to consider – new engine, new designer, potential management changes, at least one ‘new’ driver in the team…
There have been references to having to look through data and I’ve seen Twitter go crazy with people pointing out how Button outscored and outraces Kevin throughout the year. I personally assume the data referred to is set-up data, driver feedback, how this then translated into car performance. Let’s not forget the team are entering a partnership with a new engine supplier, producing an engine to the new specifications for its first season when everyone else has a head start. Development and set-up will be key.
I also have to question, if a British driver wasn’t involved in this decision, would the British public be as irate?
There will be less fans as a result.
McLaren ‘fans’ maybe anyone who stops watching the sport because if this, or simply because Button is no longer in F1 are not really fans of the sport
Fans don’t generally quit, they just hope for change and militate for it, if they can. Fans are fans.
They may not quit altogether but they do switch over to watch other sports.
I wonder if Mr Denis is aware of that catchy 1963 hit by The Crystals? The one with the refrain ‘Da Doo Ron Ron, Da Doo Ron Ron’.
Ron would be a more popular man if he would Doo something and announce McLaren’s 2015 drivers. Not that popularity is Ron’s forte (or interest for that matter).
When I was a lad in Blighty, there was a delightful actor called Brian Rix, Baron Rix, these days. He’s nearly 91 now, bless him. He became known for what was popularly dubbed the Whitehall Farces, performed at the Whitehall Theatre throughout the 50’s and 60’s.
The McLaren saga brings to mind dear old Brian Rix’s plays. In later years, he wrote a history of theatre in Britain and he called it Life in the Farce Lane.
Any aspiring writers on the last couple of years at McLaren might take some inspiration about that book title. 😉
So, let me get this straight. You are saying that it is a farce to run your own company (in which you have many millions invested) in what you believe to be a sensible fashion because race fans should not have to wait to discover who the driver is because race fans deserve respect because a few of them buy a bottle of Johnnie Walker two times a year and some have Honda lawn mowers? Feydeau might have seen some absurdity in this argument…
All this supposes that McLaren sponsors ( presently only few in number ) and potential new ones, are happy to linger about waiting to know who their advertising campaigns will be around? Some companies might look at the situation and say, do we actually want to sign up with a business that can’t make it’s mind up about the most important part of it’s team, the blokes behind the wheel? Afterall, it is the drivers that make the advertising impression on the public, not the car, unless it’s a Ferrari, which is a different case….
Oh Joe, I love ya work and I’m more than happy to subscribe to GrandPrix+ every year but you know… some things can be taken too seriously.
If the farcical elements of this situation elude you – because the rest of the world, not just the abominable fans, does see the quality of farce in these protracted shenanigans – then I’m afraid I cannot be of assistance.
May I say this? It appears to me that many of your subscribers and followers of your excellent blog have experience in and well understand the multifarious and sometimes vexatious predicaments that confront the entrepreneur. So of course an element of sympathy exists regarding the upbraiding that McLaren has received in recent weeks. Of course there is complexity. Of course significant sums of money are involved. Of course it is difficult for those in the centre of negotiations to convey to the world exactly what is going on at a sensitive time. That’s very clear to anyone who operates in the corporate (or political, come to that) sector.
But still, to deny the element of farce that is so widely recognised would suggest a degree of preoccupation with the goings-on in the F1 Paddock that some, at least, might see as remarkable.
As someone with experience in the task of shaping major international brands, I can say with confidence that there will be those in Woking and Tokyo who are not entirely delighted with the nature of the publicity this delay is receiving from consumers and the media.
Here endeth the lesson?
I think the lad Penn made his point rather well, Joe. A supercilious one-liner doesn’t take away from that I’m afraid.
Thanks for that, it really helps motivate me. The problem is that you are not seeing the big picture here. Just do some basic sums. I write the blog each day. Perhaps it takes an hour to research, think and write. Then I have to deal with perhaps 300 comments a day. If it takes an average of 20 secs on each, that is 6000 seconds = 100 minutes = 1h40m. And that is without even thinking about replies or writing them. Add it all up and you get about four hours. If you have four hours a day available to work for nothing, then you are a lucky man. I don’t. I do the best I can. I walk down the street reading comments, I take baths reading comments, I stay awake at night reading comments. My wife wants to hit me over the hit because I read too many comments. You get what you get and you get it for nothing. I generally answer questions once in each thread. I don’t think that is unreasonable. What choice do I have? I can waste all my working time and go out of business, or I can stop all comments and give up on the idea of engaging with F1 fans, which I believe is really important. What I do not need is people calling me names because they are not thinking what it takes to do all this.
Responding with ‘good point’ would’ve saved more time (if you’re so inclined to respond at all).
Bravo Joe!
These points, I’m sure, aren’t lost on the majority of your readers. I, for one, was thinking of this this morning when I tuned in for my latest free dose of the blog, how you find the energy/motivation/time tells me one thing and it keeps me coming back time and time again…passion!
However, methinks it well overdue to subscribe and at least make contribution to all your efforts.
Please keep it coming Joe!!
I replied to this but I either made a mistake posting or I failed the moderation for being a sycophant 😉
Or…I’m just impatient duh!
As you’ve said, the ‘big picture’. The thing that surprised me in this comment is that it’s ‘only’ 4 hours out of your day! I’ve had it in my mind for a long while now that this blog must take a huge amount of your time (unpaid) – the numerous & substantial posts are enough but the moderating as well…..I’d imagined an even greater amount of time than 4 hours. I suspect however, that I’m not the only one who saw the bigger picture a long, long time ago and not the only one that’s grateful to get this stuff for free. In terms of F1, it’s better than an annual subscription to most of the specialist mags out there, let alone some of the c**p out there on the net. Thanks again for what you do.
I expect that you’re right that there are those who will be unhappy with the nature of the publicity. But I think Joe’s original post is saying that that publicity is unwarranted and irrational.
Some of the media, I suppose, have nothing else/better to write about (especially in the UK) and most fans are just venting – with no true understanding of what is going on at McLaren nor whether the most important thing is to have drivers announced before Christmas – which then adds more for the media to latch on to.
Farce? It’s more like panto with the audience participation. Oh no it isn’t…
It has to be said though the responses both media and public have been driven to some extent by McLaren’s announcements of announcements that never actually announce anything only serving to fuel the fires!!
I thin there delay can only be good news for Button.
It seemed to most Alonso’s arrival would certainly spell the end of his time there, the fact it seems it’s proving hard to make a decision suggests he has a ressonable chance of keeping his spot.
That is of course unless a decision simply can’t be made until the ownership issues are up, although you’d think that all parties could agree on this seperately if opinions were similar, so perhaps the drivers fate will rest solely on the results of the ownership issue
What this really comes down to is PR- competent PR. Easier said than done, but McLaren could have handled this situation much better while maintaining its corporate privacy. Besides that, I fear that Alonso has once again sabotaged his own career by making the wrong move at the wrong time. Great driver, star-crossed career. Seems that Lewis jumped at the perfect time while Alonso has jumped in at the perfectly wrong time yet again. Anyway, all the better for my team of choice- Williams.
As much as I’m amazed, or at least an elevated version of surprised, that a McLaren board meeting could not even make the decision (it would be different if we had not been told beforehand that the meeting would make the decision), several of the 2014 drivers did not get announced until or after the car unveilings, so this delay is unremarkable in comparison.
However, compared to Mark Webber being able to enjoy a send-off race, it does seem disappointing that Button could not have that.
I would agree with Joe on this one.
no send off race ? jenson’s choice !
he could have said , new contract by the last race or I take my services elsewhere
he chose to wait ; his prerogitive !
if you are a director of a limited company in th united kingdom you must , by law , try to make the company a success by using your skills, experience , and judgement
seems to me that this is exactly what the directors of McLaren are doing
it seems to me that the whole situation is just bad timing.The drivers are just the pawns in Ron’s present bid to take control of the company.
Apologies if this is a repeat, but aren’t Jenson Button options being whittled down (e.g. Hulkenberg now signed up for Le Mans) as time passes.
The guy clearly wants the McLaren gig and has clearly shown the willingness to wait.
How is it then making a “daft” assumption to consider the continuing wait to be bad for him?
Imagine that the team decided it wanted Kevin. Then the board said “Hang on!”…
Yep… I’ve imagined that… but whatever the decision, the “losing” driver would have had more opportunities to find alternate drives (albeit in other formula) were that decision made in good time.
With close to 300 hundred replies to Joe’s opening article, I apologise if this, or something like has been said. Any plagiarism is inadvertent.
Seems to me the issue of Jenson or Kevin is not the pressing question. I imagine those with the power to make this decision at Woking already know their choice.
The world expects Alonso to go to McLaren. But it’s notable that McLaren has not announced Alonso and Alonso has not confirmed that he is driving for McLaren. If he had signed in indelible ink, so to speak, you’d think all parties would be trumpeting the good news to the world. This is, after all, the driver with a reputation of being the most complete in Formula One. One, it is reported, who Honda very much want in the team.
So surely the possibility exists, however small, that if the Alonso announcement has not been made, he may not end up at McLaren. I’m blessed if I can think of another reason not to announce the wedding, bells and all and right now!
This possibility would itself explain why neither Jenson nor Kevin have yet been shown the door. They might, just, be McLaren team mates in 2015.
As to why Alonso has not been announced, there are many theories and I cannot add to them. But it is curious, n’est-ce pas?
Shareholding in the McLaren Group. Joe (in a previous piece) describes the speculation surrounding Dennis’s apparent efforts to raise ‘at least $300 million’ to facilitate his becoming a majority shareholder. Raising large sums of money is not the work of a moment and one can only imagine the degree of, what… anxiety, frustration…. waiting for confirmation of the committing of funds.
Ordinarily, one would not imagine that driver selection would be something that is linked to company ownership but, looking at the whole situation, it is at least tempting to think there might be a link in this instance. Again, there is no shortage of theories roaring around the Information Superhighway!
Clearly, there’s a lot of complexity here and I imagine a number of people are staring at their phone willing it to ring. I’m only confident of one thing: Joe will bring us the story in time. I can also imagine Joe is willing the McLaren situation to resolve itself in time for his 2014 season review! 😉
It is not that complicated.
Joe, thank you. Would you care to elaborate? I say this having re-read Dennis goes to Denmark.
I have said all I know.
any idea what the maximum number of posts is that you have had on a thread joe ?
must be getting close , surely
No way. The record is more than1,000
Yes; spot-on. We’re a long way from the record. I have fond memories of a couple of years back (I think) when there was a situation where Joe did a seemingly harmless looking post around the time of Le Mans and got into the merits of F1 versus endurance racing etc etc. I seem to remember that the endurance racing guys took exception to some of what was posted and recall that the particular post generated a huge number of responses. I doubt however, that Joe’s memories will be as happy as mine and must have resulted in many hours of vetting posts; happy days!
Listening to the news on way home, sounds as though all JB fans will be put out of the misery of ‘waiting’ tomorrow?