Britain is the home of eight of the 11 Formula 1 teams: Force India, Haas, Manor, McLaren, Mercedes, Red Bull racing, Renault and Williams. In addition to this, Scuderia Toro Rosso has a significant staff in Britain, working on its aerodynamic and design programmes. Thus, the idea that the country will pull out of the European Union would likely create a lot of problems in F1, not least with such things as transportation, visas, work permits and so on.
It really depends to what extent the British would decide to withdraw, if the vote went in favour of a break with Europe. Having said that, there is no real reason why the Europeans would be helpful in such a situation and thus there are questions about whether there would be tariffs on exports and imports in addition to much more difficult working rules and regulations. What would the impact be on Formula 1? Who knows?
Mercedes engines are built in Britain, others are built elsewhere, but Honda does not seem to have too many problems importing and exporting its engines, it is just a matter of paperwork. This would be the primary difference if there was no single political unit: things would take longer to do. Perhaps there would be more visas required to travel around the world; perhaps there would be less. Europe, for all of its faults, is quite efficient when it comes to the movement of people and goods.
The vote will take place on June 23 when Britons will answer the question: “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?” The justification for the referendum is that the British people have not had a say on this question since 1975. Fair enough.
The EU costs the country about 1.4 percent of its total public annual spending, which is less than the budget of the Department of Energy & Climate Change, but some of the campaigners for Britain to leave believe that Britain is being held back by EU rules. They also want Britain to retake full control of its borders and reduce the number of people who come to England to work.
There are 3 million foreign citizens living in the UK and they make up 10.5 percent of the British workforce. A lot of the people working in England in F1 are from aboard. At the same time there are 1.26 million British citizens living in EU countries.
In F1 terms, there are quite a lot at Ferrari, Scuderia Toro Rosso and at Sauber, although the latter is not part of the EU.
There are already problems with Sauber’s location, such as Switzerland’s law regarding the weight of trucks, which requires Sauber to build vehicles that are lighter than their rivals and thus more expensive. However, work permits do not seem to be a problem, once the paperwork has been waded through.
Business in the UK clearly favours staying in the EU and the country’s automotive sector, which contributes $22 billion to the economy and employs 800,000 people, could suffer if Britain leaves the EU. Europe accounts for 57.5 percent of the cars exported from the UK, the next biggest market being the US with just 11 percent. Toyota, one of the biggest car manufacturers in Britain, has warned it will be forced to make significant cutbacks if the country votes to leave the EU, while BMW board member Ian Robertson has said that the Munich company (which builds cars in the UK) believes that Britain would be better off if it remained in the EU. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), which is the lobbying body of the motor industry in the UK, says that three-quarters of its members want to stay in Europe.
It is really rather difficult to predict the changes that will come if Britain does leave, but the one thing that one can say is that if the country does nothing, things will not change. In F1 terms that is probably good enough logic. Why create problems F1 doesn’t need?
However, it is perhaps worth noting that the referendum will be seen as a stroke of genius if the vote is to stay in Europe. It will deal with the problems posed by the right-wing UKIP in such a way as to render the party obsolete once the vote is taken. If Prime Minister David Cameron succeeds in doing this, he will end up as the only major European country that does not have worries about right-wing extremism, which is a quite an achievement in this day and age.
joeblogsf1 
Although I am not personally a Cameron supporter I too very much hope this enormous gamble he has taken pays off. UKIP and the Tory right ‘Bexiteers’ want to take this country back to the dark days after the war, where meeting a foreigner was a novelty. Their entire campaign is driven by xenophobia and racism; despite their constant denials they are stoking fear and resentment of immigrants from wherever they come. Farage has actually admitted he’d be happy to be worse off financially if that meant we could “control our own borders”, which of course we do already.
Yes, an EU exit could impact Formula One, where freedom of movement and tariff free goods are critical. It will also make the UK a far less attractive place for the foreign brains who are an important part of so many teams’ design and technical departments.
I hope we wake up on June 24th to find that the UK has emphatically voted to remain.
The biggest irony about UKIP for me is that their glorious leader, Nigel Farage, employs his wife (a German national, and therefore an immigrant to the UK) as his parliamentary secretary because ‘nobody else could do the job’. Check it out on Wikipedia. Where would Nige be without EU freedom of movement.
No idea where he’d be, but if you missed this story a few years ago you might get a chuckle out of it – to steer clear of Joe’s policy regarding links to other media outlets, stick “Nigel Farage PA job advert” into your search engine of choice and have a read.
Yep its funny with UKIP leader employing his German wife in a campaign to isolate Britain from the EU mainland. She must dislike her German roots or just hate anything European. Joking aside I for one will be voting PRO European as unsavoury as the EU Gravy Train is for EU Ministers & Farmers & dodgy right wing Eastern European factions .
It’s better to stay in than out of this complex Super State. Probably the only way to prevent another Hitler rising into the fold and trying to over run another state. Bit like Putin in the Ukraine.
“xenophobia and racism”…. So it is unreasonable to have any argument in favour of leaving without resorting to insults and stereotyping.
There are many reasons why my community would benefit from controlling the population expansion, part of which is fuelled by migration.
The benefits of living in a small country community, with already pressurised roads, schools and doctor’s surgery are eroded by constant housebuilding.
It may be selfish to want to preserve my family’s peaceful existence, but that does not make me xenophobic or racist.
Personally, I’d also like to string the fly-tippers up by their testicles… but don’t get me on to the Court of Human Rights….. so I suppose that makes me a fascist too!
And your views on F1?
My view on F1 is that it will continue largely unaffected by the politics and that those who control the money will continue to control the sport.
My response above was made in respect of an off-topic attack on anyone who dares to disagree with the contributor’s point of view.
“And your views on F1?”. With respect Joe, you’re being naive. What sort of replies and debate did you think you would be starting with this one Joe? Surely you know better!
The outcomes of two World Wars is, for me, more important than the ego-fuelled modus-operandi of F1, so I’m in the Out camp.
No I’m not being naive. I knew what would happen, but it is something that needs to be discussed
The outcome of two World Wars was my grandfather and father spending 5 and 6 years fighting in Europe. I have not, nor has my son. This is far more important than how well the Union is managed. I am committed to the European Union. If the UK leaves, after 4 generations (including me) serving in HM Forces, I will be applying for French citizenship.
I can see the centre of F1 moving out of the UK to the Cologne/Turin axis (apologies for the unfortunate connotation) if the UK leaves. So how does it work if the UK leaves? Everything we sell to Europe is plus import tax there. Everything we buy from Europe is plus import duty in the UK. That will work well…………….
Why are fly tippers automatically men?
Are you serious? Please say you’re not serious!
For me the question remains, do I want to eventually live in a Federal EU where I and my fellow citizens have no power to remove the body that creates the laws which govern my life?
For me the answer to that question is no, and so I’m voting leave.
Why do you think you would have no power? Voters in federal states have the power to remove the rulers.
EU laws are all proposed by the unelected EU Commission.
The English Cabinet is selected in a similar fashion. They come up with laws, which pass through parliament before becoming law.
The Commission President is elected the European Parliament. He chooses his commission. It is then consented to by the European Parliament. The laws are made by the Commission in consultation with the Parliament.
EU Laws are proposed by the Commission, but they are not the legislature. That is the council and the parliament. The idea is that the commission represents ‘Europe’, the council National Governments, and the Parliament the people.
Commissioners are not directly elected by the people, but they are appointed by representatives who have been elected. Much like a diplomat is appointed by a government. The council and parliament debate, amend and pass laws
There are many, many problems with the way the EU is run, and there could definitely be more democratic transparency, but it is a fallacy that it is run by unelected, and in particular, unanswerable bureaucrats.
It’s a can of worms right enough Joe but whats good for F1 does not come high up the rankings of many people when considering how to vote. Win or lose the vote I hardly think the voices on either side will just shut down and accept the result. After all its not stopped voices calling for another Scottish independence vote.
I am well aware of this. However it is worth examining
Motorsport aside… I am keen to hear a balanced argument for “In” or “Out”.
This isn’t it!
What is wrong with it?
I can see a lot of reasonable arguments why it is good to stay in, but many of these have a balancing alternative that you don’t mention.
Firstly, from what I’ve heard big businesses are “in” as you say, but small businesses are “out”.
Secondly, from my own gut feeling, we must buy in an awful lot of European cars, so it seems sensible that a trade agreement will keep the two-way flow going. We are a comparatively wealthy country and everybody will want to trade with us.
I am not an economist so I have no idea how the numbers will stack up either way, but so it would appear, neither do the experts.
Back on topic….as every country seems to want the benefit of Formula 1, I daresay the wheels of bureaucracy will be suitably oiled. Of course, every country will get to make a few extra quid on visas.
I haven’t considered the question at all beyond F1. Read the article before telling me I haven’t presented a balanced view.
I have, several times and I beg to differ.
However this is your blog and I respect your right to an opinion.
Assuming you have a British passport, I would also respect your right to vote irrespective of where you live.
The larger F1 teams can afford to cope with the EU-generated red tape, regulation, and bureaucracy that enshrouds UK businesses.
F1 teams also have to rely upon outsourcing to the much smaller businesses to get their cars to the grid; these smaller companies can ill-afford the costs of coping with the red tape. Ditto the motor manufacturers, ditto most other industry.
Parts come from all over Europe…
You insinuate that those that want to leave are part of “right-wing extremism”.
Once you get to that part of the article, its clear that any hint of a balanced view has gone out the window.
In you mind maybe not in mine
If the UK leaves, I hope, then it will handle transportation matters like it used to do before there was a EU. No harm done.
Maybe, but it will take longer
I remember well what traveling to Europe was like before the EU. It was much more expensive both financially and timewise. That’s just one reason our economy has flourished since. Whether you are travelling on business or driving to Barcelona to watch the Grand Prix a ‘BREXIT’ result will be painful both for business and individuals. The consequences of a Formula One transporter having to clear customs outbound, with visa requirements for some team members who don’t require one now, will add time and even more expense. Turning back the clock would be idiotic and against all the principles and freedoms we have fought so hard to win over the last century.
John Galpin, in the grand scheme of things, F1 is an expensive luxury, not a necessity.
Regarding your last sentence, that is idiotic and exactly why OUT is the way; whilst in the EU are sleepwalking into being ruled by the ideology of Political Correctness, which is NOT what two World Wars were about!
You think there is no political correctness in Britain? I think it’s on a par with Australia and Canada when it comes to such ridiculous things. Europe is far less politically correct.
“You think there is no political correctness in Britain?” I agree, I obviously didn’t make myself understood properly
The world wars are a thing of the past, and avoiding them in the future would be helped by a unified Europe.
Political Correctness, correctly known as Cultural Marxism, has nothing to do with the EU. It’s political tool which has many uses, but most visibly to control and instil fear in the populace and prevent them from voicing their opinions. It is widely used by supporters of the EU however, largely by declaring anyone EUsceptic as “racist”.
Assuming the rest of the European politicians will cooperate happily and make this process as smooth and simple as possible for the UK.
The trade arguments fail even the most basic logic test.
There are 65 million consumers in the UK. Individual wealth is higher than any other European country. Are the crumbling economies of continental Europe really going to say we don’t want to send any more goods one of the largest consumer groups in the world?
No.
And when they do the UK will send goods to them.
Germany going to stop wanting to sell BMW’s in the UK? Yeah right. France going to stop wanting to sell Renaults? Hmmmm
Governments would have you think differently but people actually trade with each other naturally and voluntarily. Things like the EU are the problem not the solution.
I’m not British or from continental Europe yet somehow I live and work in the UK, how could this be? I bet there is no way a French Engineer would be allowed to work at Mercedes in the UK without the EU? Yet somehow a Japanese one works for McLaren?
There are few logical arguments for in voters to push forward so its always a racist right wing blah blah thing. I can promise you there are plenty of left wing leaning people who are a long way from racist who’ll be ticking the exit box.
Is there a theme here or is it meant to be a stream of random thoughts?
Is your reply my question as to what I was reading?
I have no idea what you are saying
I think you got the wrong end of the stick. It’s about the cars we make here, Nissan, Toyota, BMW etc all have huge plants here and sell, with no dutys or taxes applied, most of them to the EU. If Britain leaves and the EU has any sense they will levy a large duty on non EU cars and the car makers will shut their UK doors and open up on the continent. We’ll lose jobs and have to buy EU built cars! And that is just one sector of business that will be negatively affected.
Exactly what they are saying.
The U.K. is a huge market for prestige German cars. My guess is that a special deal on cars would be agreed quickly, with Germany pushing very hard for it.
The far bigger risk is financial services. There never has been a deal cut on that, probably because of the need to get 27 other countries to agree and not be deflected by their own special interests.
WTO tariffs (about 3%) would be insufficient to prevent trade between the EU & UK – it seems every manufactured item you pick up has been made in China, or India, but a floating £ can accommodate any resistance. I think if the single market was an agreement between Sovereign states Brexit would not be an issue for anyone.
The economic argument alone is not the real issue. Agreements with Turkey who are clamping down on free press and poking a stick at Putin over the Ukrane are where I believe the EU is getting it wrong. When the EU was 11 – 15 countries it made a lot of sense – enlargement has only made it bigger and not better.
Define “huge” Rodger J. In my view China or maybe the US are “huge” markets for luxury cars. The UK is not.
And you would just have to buy the cars for somewhat higher prices (just as other prices for smaller cars would go up).
I do agree with you that losing (a large part of) the financial sector will leave the UK standing completely empty handed.
As for free press, I am not sure the UK model, with a large part of the press owned by Moguls with an agenda is the best example either. But whatever the case a going it alone UK would have to make deals at even less favorable terms (because Turkey really doesn’t need the UK much at all).
Bare in mind some of the Japanese companies build cars in the UK that then get shipped and sold back in Japan, so they could sell to other markets and negate the problem of tariff’s.
And off course to add to what Damian mentions, time IS critical for the complicated process of getting the parts to the car plant.
If trucks spend a day more clearing the borders, that means a huge increase of cost and inventory levels, which will likely make it hard for many of the suppliers (and some manufacturers) to keep doing this. The sensible thing then will be to cut production in the UK down to just for UK markets (too small to get advantage of scale) and pull the rest of it towards continental Europe.
There is surplus capacity in EU car plants, so it would not be too hard to have BMW produce almost all Mini cars on the continent. Toyota, Nissan (Renault would maybe be greatly relieved by filling up plants they are forced to keep open) and Honda would likely shift large parts of their production too.
Much the same goes for Airbus/Aerospace. And with this you have an outflow of engineering capacity, which will also affect the F1 teams.
I want to hear the logical (rather than emotionally charged) arguments for voting out, I really do.
I truly believe it’s going to be an emotional response rather than entirely logical. There are decent arguments on both sides, despite what some would have you believe.
trade won’t magically stop, but the cost of trade will increase thanks to increased tariffs and red tape. Increased costs will get passed on to the consumer, and they’ll choose the cheaper option.
As for migration, we can get nurses from the EU and commonwealth quite easily, but because we pay nurses a pittance, non eu/commonwealth nurses won’t earn enough to be able to work here. Qualified engineers tend to be highly paid, so they won’t have much of a problem.
Glad you know what will happen. I don’t claim to.
As the UK buys considerably more from Germany and France than they do from the UK I doubt tariffs will be an issue – unless of course the Germans and French want to shoot themselves in the foot.
Sure, but you don’t know.
maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle – i understand that the UK might feel it’s too costly burden because of all the refugees and immigrants considering probably too much democracy flagged by EU on this account. But also true is that most of workers coming from other countries are skilled and dedicated workers etc. Maybe it might be 3rd option included to stay in EU but have a say with regards to who and how many to allow in. I don’t know as i’m not there there in the UK, but my general feeling, seeing the things in other two EU countries(my Home country and One i live and work at), is that stay is better but with more control on local issues, as it would be for all other members of EU as well, as i think that at present central EU governance have too much say on all sorts of things which they might not know precisely well enough about particular situation in each member Country specifically.
I don’t know. I don’t care because I am not allowed to vote but I object to opinionated and rude twats being abusive because I even mention the concept.
Why aren’t you allowed to vote? Because you’re an ex-pat?
An expat for more than 15 years cannot vote
so if Britain says no to EU Your coming/going to European GP’s might be the same easy than going to China or Azerbaijan
In which case I could return to the UK and get my vote back. However house prices would mean I’d have to live a million miles from London, although if the finance industry moves to Frankfurt maybe the housing market in the UK will recover some sense of reality.
There was a recent headline that Brexit would cause a fall in house prices according to George Osborne, which for me and millions like me would be a good thing… The article presented it as a bad thing of course because rising house prices is the best for everyone…
The prices of houses in the south-east of England seems daft to me, but given that the market is skewed by offshore companies hiking prices in central London and the ripple effect of that. In the end, however, if there is demand, the prices will remain high. If the demand drops, the prices will drop. It is not something that the UK is used to, but population changes could make a difference. The Baby Boom generation (those born between 1945 and 1964) started reaching retirement age in 2010 and the number of pensioners will rise significantly in the next 20 years. People are also living longer and so this poses problems for economies, with less money around for investment and houses – unless they take in more people. If they don’t the economies will contract.
Interesting you’re not allowed to vote in the UK anymore then. Are you allowed to vote in France?
No
Not at all? EU citizens in Britain can vote in European and local elections but not parliamentary ones.
This is where Britain is behind. France has 11 constituencies for French residents overseas, each electing one representative to the National Assembly. This is not surprising when you consider that London is now believed to be on a par with Lyon, Toulouse and Nice competing to be France’s third biggest city, behind Paris and Marseilles.
Since this issue has come up, people may be interested in the research that I and some colleagues at the European Union Democracy Observatory (EUDO) on Citizenship have conducted on it – including a cross-national database of electoral rights and a report we wrote for the European Parliament comparing different states’ expatriate voting rights. (I know Joe doesn’t like links to outside sources, but if the link is allowed: see http://eudo-citizenship.eu/electoral-rights).
Basically, EU citizens resident in another member state are allowed to vote in each other’s local and European elections – but states still determine their own rules on national elections. Most allow their expatriates to vote, but a few – e.g., Denmark, Ireland and Malta – base voting rights on continued residence in the country. The UK lets those who have departed in the last 15 years vote, but excludes them thereafter. The theory is that – since British elections are technically about electing a local member of parliament, not a national government – a person’s link to their last place of residence diminishes over time if they don’t come back.
What makes this referendum somewhat unusual (like the Scottish independence one a couple of years ago) is that it has a potential knock-on effect on people’s citizenship as well as on political outcomes. UK citizens are also EU citizens by extension, giving them the right to live/work in other EU states. Those who have done so may thus find their citizenship status (and potentially their rights in their country of residence) changing by virtue of a decision in which they cannot participate – ironically, because they have exercised their EU citizenship rights in the first place.
I did not pay much attention to it until I started get comments on the subject but Irish people living in the UK can vote (because of the close links with Britain), but British citizen cannot. How fair is that?
Sarkozy (ex-president) wanted foreigners living in France to be able to vote in presidential elections. He was defeated on that, fair, idea. You can live and work all your all life in France and have no say on who governs you, unless you change nationality. Otherwise one can vote in local and European elections. The right to vote for ex-pats on Brexit will be heard in the appeal courts on Monday, but they shouldn’t hold their breath. Sorry Joe.
Expats have the right to vote as long as they have been away for less than 15 years. If some court changes that it is not going to be done time for the registration process so the referendum would thus be undemocratic.
The objectors are pursuing their case on the basis that it must be done by the June date. Seems democratic to me bearing in mind this has been bubbling up for some time, registration date or not. May 16, Monday, coincides with the appeal court hearing and the ‘under 15 years’ residents must be registered by then as you probably realise. The representing lawyers have obviously been led to believe they have a good case – good luck, you never know.
The registration deadline for all voters is 7 June 2016, including non-UK resident. If yesterday’s Court of Appeal hearing is successful (the judgment should be known in a couple of days), in theory all that is required for UK citizens who have lived outside the UK for more than 15 years to register is their passport. This is exactly the same registration credential required from those who have lived outside the UK for less than 15 years. So technically, this should not be too hard for the government to implement – it’s just a fairly minor software update that delates the 15-year limitation. The process and verification otherwise remains unchanged.
Not sure what happens if yesterday’s appeal is rejected. I think in theory the lawyers can take it to the Supreme Court and then, if required, the European Court of Human Rights (given that one of the grounds in the case is that the 15-year ‘rule’ is at odds with the free movement of people within the EU).
It’s complicated by the fact that the ‘Leave’ side are strongly opposed to allowing any change in the law, and that one of the leading ‘Leavers’ is Michael Gove, the Secretary of State at the Ministry of Justice.
Thanks for correcting me – wrong Monday. However, the Electoral Commision has advised 16 May to avoid admin delays. At the last election I failed to vote because the papers never arrived at my French address despite everything being double checked, so I wouldn’t underestimate the task in hand. I also don’t think the election will be delayed due to a few ex-pats not being able to vote I’m afraid.
If Britain votes to leave the EU there is an assumption that trade agreements will be simple to sort out on the basis of mutual interest, the Germans wanting to sell cars in Britain etc.
There will be another factor in these negotiations which seems to be ignored.
Post Brexit the EU will not be doing Britain any favours. The last thing they want is for Britain to be seen to have got a good deal.
There is already agitation in other European countries arguing for exit, which a good deal for Britain would strengthen.
If the EU negotiators decide to, they can take some pain if they feel it is best for them in the long run.
Bear in mind 44% of British exports go to the EU. Only Ireland and Cyprus export more than 10% of their production to Britain.
And it should be considerably less than 15 years, too.
Why should it be considerably less than 15 years?
With respect, as an expat who *will* get to vote, I rather appreciate that I can choose to vote with my own self interest – that I can retain my right to live and work where I live and work without having to change nationality, something which, aside from being a bureaucratic pain I can do without, may affect my ability to return to the motherland if/when I choose to do so.
I suspect many British F1 staffers at STR, Sauber and Ferrari feel the same way. Care to ask James Allison for us Joe?
You know what? Voting and democracy is not all what it is cracked up to be especially in the UK with it’s first past the post and no proportional representation. I myself don’t bother to vote anymore and haven’t for years as it seems that no matter who you vote for nothing ever changes; its always the politically correct minority dictating to the majority. What makes this referendum different is that a vote for an exit will force a change and a lot of Britain see it that way. I’m on the electoral register because I’m told it’s a criminal offence not to be but I can’t be forced to actually vote. If it makes you feel any better Joe you can have my vote just so you can say you had an influence; how would you like it cast? (or should I need to ask!)
Thank you very much. That is very kind of you. I think it is mad to leave.
well Joe, i hope that not MY comment made You annoyed, i just posted my overall view on the theme in general. And i’m happy that Someone with Inside knowledge of motorsports came along in the end and made comparison and Hopefully made your day as well.
The UK is being told to put it,s armed forces under EU control and our borders and foreign policy .
This would end the UK as an independent country.
We each November remember those who died to keep us an English speaking independent country ruled by common law..
We then say we will remember them and they did not die in vain.
This is far more important than some short term gain for those who live now and bad news for future generations
Check out the CV of France/Germany and vote on facts not fear of the future.
God save the Queen
Howard Scaife
British and proud ex army
Is this to do with F1 or just a ramble about nationhood
I presume you’re happy with being part of NATO or shall we leave that as well? NATO has more control over our military then the EU does.
Is this to do with F1?
This is exactly why the people you mentioned had to die, because there was no EU in 1945 and before … chances are it will happen again if the EU breaks up …
I’d agree with that but he’ll who cares or learns from history these days!
Of course the conspiracy theorists would have us believe that the EU is just a continuation of the Third Reich with the deathy parts removed and as soon as I find my tinfoil hat I’ll start looking for evidence of Frau Merkel authorising underhand payments to Mercedes F1.
Zzzzzz
Don’t know how old you are but you’ve certainly got a problem with your facts and I’m very glad you’re ex army.
November 11th is remembered pretty much throughout Europe and the last world war finished more than 70 years ago, remember it ?
One of the reasons were stronger and peacefully so is because of the way we work together.
Back to F1 and motor racing in particular, why make life more difficult ?
Hm – I thought politics and F1 did not mix? My main reason for the UK to leave the EU is to prevent it becoming a bigger part of an ever increasingly Federilised Europe, run by the Germans and French and increasingly influenced by basket-case economies in the rest of the EU. However as a sailor and a motorsport nut, I can see the problems Brexit will bring with regard to freedom of movement, when it suits us.
Stay out of politics, Joe. It’s nothing to do with you and some of us object to the threats posed by the motoring lobby. If BMW, Mercedes, VW Audio etc don’t want to sell cars over here, so be it. But I’d bet my socks they will still want the British to buy their products. And incase you haven’t noticed, being an emigrant, we use pounds sterling over here, so there is already a difference in our monetary trading. UKIP will keep quiet until the last minute before the vote. Then all of the downsides of Europe membership will become apparent. Dream on…
I wrote a very neutral story about what might happen. You come at me telling how to lead my life. Get lost.
Joe is a studied historian by trade – in simple words that’s all politics that ever happened on earth, except the very recent or current ones. What is your qualification to judge on him being fit or not for the topic of politics?
Joe
I am sure that you did not mean to be unkind to Matt but he clearly expresses the bemusement of so many of us. This is not an easy decision to make using the normal understanding of advantage/disadvantage. I cannot imagine that anyone likes the behaviour of the incredible Brussels politicians or the German/French axis and their private meetings as the ruling clique determined to impose their weird values.
My mother used to squabble with her sister after bedtime until my grandfather, a builder, would take a plank from his workshop and push it into their bed to separate them. OK, that was c 1912 but we have been pushing planks between the Europeans for many hundreds of years now.
My point being that they must learn that a vote of Yes to give them yet another chance to grow up and behave like a western civilisation can be set aside unilaterally if they cannot see the benefit of creating a union that people are proud and honoured to belong to. So what could they do then? Sue us?
Weird values? German-french axis? This sounds like something else may be the problem here, not the EU or any part of it or anything it stands for …
The people who created the problem, their supportive wives and adoring children have not all passed on yet. Some of them even seek to reproach us as they sell their virtues as good Europeans. However, this blog should have an F1 root and we should have nothing but praise for the engineers and drivers from many lands who make up the circus and those poor hard working slaves to the discipline who keep us informed.
And all of us should thank Michael for the pleasure he gave us and wish him well at this terrible time. Over and out
Ps I am not the only 85 year old enjoying F1
PM David Cameron has been accused of having relations with a dead pig as some kind of initiation prank.
Did you say something about ruling clique and their weird values.
Have you never done anything weird because you wanted to be accepted by your mates?
Mmmm….. suggests you have then, Joe…. pray tell!
Joe, I shall send you a copy of my autobiography.
It is titled “I’ve done plenty of stupid things but none of them involved sticking my penis into a dead animal”. I had originally wanted the title to include the words “an animal, dead or alive” but my publicist warned that humans are technically animals and I shouldn’t give the impression that the book was about celibacy.
It does remind me of a saying an old friend would mutter every now and again “Do a million good deeds and no-one remembers, but have sex with one goat and you never hear the end of it”
I’ve done weird things, we all have, which is why I’ve always thought that Max Mosley was dealt with poorly, though I do understand comments you have made regarding Max’s exploits being considered a breach of trust. I haven’t generally done them to
Maybe growing up in a low socio-economic environment gave me poor standards to live by when compared to the upbringing David Cameron’s family could afford, but simulation of sex with animals, or a dead anything would have always been considered out of the question, even in an initiation rite, not that I was enough of a follower to bother with initiation rites. That’s how these things work though, when you have enough money and freedom to exhaust all the usual stupidities you have to go to extremes to get your kicks, history is full of it, but no-one ever really wants to deal with it.
Thanks for your continued good humour.
Unfortunately if we do not leave we can expect a great deal more interference and intrusion by the unelected overpaid eurocrats.
If they even only once, proved that they were honest and had the EU accounts ratified then maybe they would be looked upon with less disdain. We are no longer have last say in our own laws but have literally thousands thrust upon us from Brussels. Many fear that the ultimate intention is to create one uniform euro state, which will in ultimate effect, be greater Germany. Did the monetary union teach nothing? It has crippled and almost bankrupted country after country within it’s zone. Do they not realise that we will never play nicely with other countries? We have been at war with most of europe at one time or other for longer than we have at peace.
I am a boomer and remember the end of rationing and how it was before we joined the EEC. Basically we were ok, we had the Commonwealth and EFTA. We never voted to join the EU, that was imposed by self interested politicians, on some of whom we are still waiting the result of the enquiry into their apparent gross misdeeds.
While now, those who hold the Crusades fresh in their cultural memories laugh up their sleeves as they infiltrate unchecked across the EU. Meanwhile ironically, major car manufacturers stampede back into Persia.
There are extreme claims of dire consequences of both staying in and leaving being exhorted by politicians of all persuasions, in both directions on a daily basis.
It may take more paperwork if we leave the EU, but it will be worth it if only to feel our country is not being run by a foreign power from abroad and that we have control again, something several generations have never known. Each to his/her own! I don’t expect anyone to agree or disagree.
Unelected? We elect the EU parliament. More is possible, it sadly wasn’t wanted.
Yes, “the ultimate intention is to create one […] euro state”. Not uniform, but one state. No need to fear, this is (in other words) the official goal of the EU, for … I’d have to look it up how many years it is now. Of course it is. In the past it was one uniform Britain people feared. One France. One US of A.
And why would that be “greater Germany”? It could be the opposite, the ultimate dissolution of Germany. Just depends on your perspective.
“Did the monetary union teach nothing?” Yes it taught us that it could only have worked if the government and budget responsibility had also been centralised, like in any other common currency area that works.
“We have been at war with most of europe at one time or other for longer than we have at peace.” – to me, that’s a crystal clear argument for the EU helping to keep the peace. Your argument being what? “We Brits will kill anyway, someday sooner or later”?
I’m german, and I don’t feel proud about my country or its finances or economy or its cars, or when I see the german flag, or the german football team winning whatever, etc… I feel proud about Europe getting its act together over the past decades and learning to behave, to solve conflicts without internal war and to at least try and home in on a common set of values and goals. I feel proud when I see the European Flag, not any national flag.
Europe is hugely diverse, and we can cherish that. But why shouldn’t we at the same time aim to combine our power and coordinate our interests in an ever more globalized world? Dominated by issues which cross national borders like they weren’t there at all?
I have never understood why people cannot retain their own cultural identity whilst also belonging to a greater geo political fraternity, whether that be based on a continent, or the globe itself. Most nations are home to a variety of regional cultures which continue to exist mostly harmoniously under the flag of a sovereign state. Indeed it is often the differences between people in one part of a country and another that make living in a country so great. There is no reason that these identities cannot continue or indeed flourish under a greater societal umbrella.
In general Nationalism is a concept that served a purpose for a period in human history. That period is a lot shorter than most people realise as what we can look back at as nations, were largely personal domains of ruling families,ie kingdoms up until recently. Nationalism is not the be all and end all of human development or society.
The concept of unity cannot exist without embracing diversity. If you eradicate diversity there is nothing to unite.
Nationalism in European buried hundreds of millions of people over several centuries.
Agreed. A blunt tool to fashion borders. I’m not a fan of it, and I find it disappointing that people get it confused with culture. I find it even more frustrating that people are prepared to kill each other over it.
“We elect the EU parliament.”
Yeah… about that. In ten days’ time, the Tobacco Products Directive comes into force, bringing the vaping industry, which has boomed over the last five years or so with light regulation and little interference, under similar regulatory requirements and advertising restrictions to tobacco.
The Parliament voted against it. The Commission went ahead anyway. Forget the detailed pros and cons of the Directive itself; if this sort of thing happened in any other government – the permanent executive deliberately ignoring a vote of elected representatives (the EP is hardly a “legislature”) – there would be absolute unholy outrage, and rightly so. But somehow, because it’s “Europe”, we just shrug our shoulders and think warm and fuzzy thoughts about “co-operation”.
The EU isn’t just undemocratic; it’s anti-democratic.
And F1?
You sound like an idealist, but even in Germany the façade of the EU is beginning to crack.
Still as I said I don’t expect anyone to agree or disagree, each to his or her own opinion. Good luck to you.
Hear. hear. Well said.
Well you started it!
Started what? I wrote a story saying what might or might not happen.
Sorry Joe, but I have to agree with Matt, who you are doing a disservice in calling his points ‘random’. I remember when we first joined the EU, in fact it was the first election I voted in, where we were asked to join a common trade agreement. No unelected lawyers telling us how our justice system should be managed and no open boundaries allowing every Tom, Dick or Harry adding to an already overstretched NHS, oversubscribed primary and high schools, lack of affordable housing, etc. Lets go back to governing our country by our rules and allowing only those with the required skill-set to come into the country.
I’m not allowed to vote. This is not about arguing one side or the other.
None of those problems you describe are the fault of the EU.
Also please remember, there are many millions of Brits born after we joined the EU, and quite a lot of us want to stay in it.
I am aware of this. I’m not a moron.
Er I don’t think that was directed at you Joe.
In F1 terms its certainly likely to create a bit of a headache with all the teams sitting in the EU except Sauber (And switzerland has some bi-lateral type agreements with the EU as a whole as far as I am aware, so there is some free movement allowed).
However prior to the kick off of the campaign proper the argument put forward the most was to follow the Norwiegen model of staying in the EEA. I think long term if the Brexit happens we would see things sorted out and a very low-tariff or no-tariff trade and movement deals with the majority of Europe or a re-entry into the EEA.
Short term I think it could well be chaos and the speed that the F1 world moves at is quite unique. They don’t really have the luxury of waiting for things to get sorted out. However I would guesstimate that no F1 teams would leave Britian – its where the motorsport talent pool is.
(PS Im voting Remain)
I don’t know to whom comments are directed. I just get the comments in one long stream.
Ahh I can’t remember how it shows up when logged in as admin on wordpress (been a while). It nests them when viewing them as a user (at least on a PC) so you can easily tell whats a reply to what. Neils comment there was definitely directed at the comment by Ann Oakley.
Norway is a unique case. Vast amounts of gas to sell… and not that many people.
Britain had vast amounts of oil and gas and spent all the money rather than using it for a wealth fund, as Norway did. now, Norway makes more from that fund than they do from the North Sea.
The Norway story in this regard is brilliant and serves as an example to many countries. Often gets referred to down here in Australia for similar reasons.
Our small business designs and builds specialised battery charging systems for rail, utility and other industrial users.
90% of our customer base is owned by foreign companies, so we really don’t want to see anything hurting our business such as the UK leaving the EU.
My belief is that we should make it (EU) work better for us, not walk away from it.
Cameron has attempted to make it work better for us with his deal. Unfortunately all his requests were either veto’d by Germany, or watered down and manipulated to be more beneficial to the other EU states rather than for us.
My opinion on brexit and the polls, I can’t help but think the polls they publish aren’t to measure people’s opinion, but to mould peoples opinion. Every time I turn on the radio, I hear the in/out vote is slightly in favour of staying, but this just doesn’t seem to reflect what I hear and see. I read the comments section in the papers and nearly all comments are people saying we should leave, on social media it appears 90% of people want to leave, I ask at work and it seems more are in favour of leaving than staying. Or maybe those in favour of democracy are more vocal than those in favour of autocracy.
The opinion polls are openly transparent, and they show you who they asked and how they did their working out. It’s the press who then twist those results to suit their agenda.
What agenda?
All the owners of the print news groups in the UK have stated publically thy want out and the coverage in the papers is so biased it laughable at times
That’s because when they want to speak to the UK prime minister he asks them what time and brings them biscuits. When they want to speak to the EU they are told to take a ticket and stand in line!
‘Business in the UK clearly favours staying in the EU’
Really! What makes you think that. Companies large and small have continued to invest in the UK despite a potential Brexit. Thousands of business owners have expressed a desire to leave the EU. Why? Because the UK has always been, and will always be, a mercantile nation that likes to trade with nations around the world without barrier or restriction. That is not the way the EU is designed to operate. Just compare German ‘Volkism’ with the way the UK developed in the 19th century and you will see what I mean.
The EU has struggled to reach escape velocity since the crisis simply because they are wedded to a false notion that the Euro will answer all their prayers. 50% youth unemployment in Spain and Greece. France, the most beautiful country, is stuck in the doldrums for years now and no light at the end of the tunnel. I could cry for those once great nations. I don’t want the same to happen to the UK. I don’t want to give up democracy to a bunch of overpaid nobodies in Brussels who I cannot vote out office. I’d rather stick with the overpaid nobodies in Whitehall who I can vote out thank you.
What you are saying Joe is that you are happy to forgo democracy in exchange for a few no existent benefits the EU offers. After Brexit we will still be able to trade freely with the EU, but we will also be able to trade more freely with the rest of the world. You will still be able to live and work in France. F1 outfits will still be able to freely exchange staff as they do now. Please don’t go down the scaremongering route Joe. Leave that to The Prime Minister. Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty will tell you all you need to know about leaving the EU.
I am a businessman. I export my own UK manufactured products to over 70 nations around the world. I want strong, growing economies around Europe so they will buy my product. The dead corpse that the EU has become will not allow those great nations to grow. I want out. Brexit will precipitate the end of the EU as we know it, and rid the malaise which haunts much of Europe. Speak to any F1 outfit and I am sure you will find the one thing they really want is a strong European economies. Getting sponsorship is much easier when in a growing economy. Frankly obtaining a few working visas becomes insignificant by comparison.
The EU will collapse sooner or later, whatever the UK decides. All non-democratic unions end sooner rather than later. Just look at the USSR.
Because the chambers of commerce and other such bodies say it. It is fact.
Nothing about the future is fact Joe but my opinion about the future is just as valid as yours. It seems that 50% of the U.K. population want out and the outers are more motivated to vote than the inners. I trust the queue will not be too long at the working visas department of the British consulate in Paris!!!
Think about it, which obviously you haven’t, if there is a requirement for working visas for an Englishman in France, I won’t be going to the British Embassy, will I? I’d be dealing with the local prefecture. I did that before and it was really ridiculous, so I would probably move somewhere else.
People have weird views about the future and how Britain will become the new Utopia if it leaves Europe. In my opinion, and it is as valid an opinion as your’s, it will become a small country that used to be important, jumping up and down trying to be noticed while the big players make the big decisions in the future. It is better to have more influence in a bigger entity.
Who said anything about utopia?
In my opinion you are doing your country a big disservice. You may not have noticed but it is the Southern EU nations who have no say whatsoever in the world anymore (including France). They now all jump to the German tune. Germany decides for you. Germany sets your interest rate for you. And by extension Germany controls your exchange rate. The EU economy is getting smaller by the day as a percentage of global trade. I want to trade freely with the rest of the world, which is growing, thank you very much, without the EU telling me how to do it. I don’t want German monetary policy setting UK interest rates, and hence exchange rates.
You are effectively saying I am a Little Englander. I say you are a ‘Little EUer’. We are the fifth biggest trading nation in the World. We need the the little old EU like a hole in the head.
What amuses me though Joe is as an expat, you have given up the right to vote in the Referendum. I will be voting out!
ps. I appreciate this forum is ‘your house’ and I appreciate that you publish my posts. I made a mistake on the the Embassy but there is no need to be so rude. I am a customer of yours after all, just not in my name.
I’m not being rude. I pointed out a glaringly ridiculous statement which you wrote, trying to be clever. If that upsets you, hit yourself on the head, don’t transfer your embarrassment to me
Yeah, vote out mate. Fine. After ten years at the latest you will come back knocking at the door of EU and certainly you will be welcomed back, however probably not to the same conditions which you had before. And btw the EU will have moved forward a lot in the meantime, but not so much in the direction you will like it to.
If you want to reign in German or South European or whatever influence within the EU then stay in now and opine. If you leave now, the drift will grow and you will loose out as will the EU but probably less so. It’s a loose/loose situation.
Thank you – “it will become a small country that used to be important, jumping up and down trying to be noticed while the big players make the big decisions in the future. It is better to have more influence in a bigger entity.” This sums it up so neatly for me and should for everyone else. If i was Germany, France or even Spain, i would be thinking if the UK leaves the EU this would be the perfect opportunity to plug some holes in my economy by increasing every tarriff, tax or levy i could. Those BMW’s you Brits love so much will cost 50% more now or buy a Great Wall SUV from China… your choice!
” it will become a small country that used to be important, jumping up and down trying to be noticed while the big players make the big decisions in the future. It is better to have more influence in a bigger entity.”
Exactly how does having a 1/28th (soon to be 1/32) vote in the EU enable us to be stronger.
If the UK disagrees with TTIP or any other trade deal , our vote counts for nothing , which was seen when Cameron had to go to beg Poland and all the other little players to side with him.
We contribute 1/8th of the budget an get 1/28th of the vote.Only six countries in the EU have ever been net contributors, the rest are just basketcases looking for handouts (look at how much Poland have had since 2007).
F1 F1 F1.. Nothing will change ,most of the big industry in the UK is EU owned anyway…. Water,Gas,Electric,Telecoms,Auto etc.. so they are not going to actively shaft their own interests.
Hm, D. Elfman, and also Richard Lawson etc, when you bring up international trade, and TTIP, In my view the UK should be enormously glad to be part of the EU and therefore have a somewhat balanced position when fighting over the details of the deal with the US.
A small country by itself wouldn’t have a change at all to get into that position, it would most likely just have to take what it gets offered (like Manor in F1 had to just take the offered FOM contract regardless of whether it was a good deal for them).
There are good reasons countries like Switzerland considered getting INTO the EU several times in the last decade, because nowadays they have to accept EU regulations if they want to sell their products there, but they have no say in establishing the rules.
Another thing you seem to ignore is that such international deals, while they are negotiated by the EU comission, only get ratified if the member states, that is your UK parliament/government and ALL the other EU states actually sign off the deal in the end. So you DO have influence over it, far more than you would have on your own in a large world.
50% youth unemployment in Spain is the mathematical methodology utilised as it counts all those under 25 regardless of whether they are at school, college or university hence unemployed…….
Does this relate to anything?
Trying to understand the present affairs and judge on the future course of Britain and Europe, in a global context, by (even explicitly!) referring to 19th century national / racial stereotypes. That is your contribution on the 9th of May, *2016*. Just for the record.
So Richard, the EU is such a non-democratic institution that you get to vote whether you want to stay in it or not?
No it is Britain.
Tell me where and when you can vote for the EU president Adam and I will be there! Who voted for Jean Claud Juncker? It certainly wasn’t me or you.
The EU was originally set up so it could be run an unelected executive elite. The peoples of Europe were always considered the ‘great unwashed’ and should never be able to vote for the executive as they thought democracy was a failed experiment.
The European Parliament was set up to give a veneer of democracy but it is toothless.
You had the opportunity to vote in the European elections in the UK. The people who were elected voted on whether Juncker should be in charge. In a democracy you have a vote and it is your choice whether you use it. If you don’t agree you accept the result. If you do not, you do not believe in democracy.
I think Richard knows that the British (and Hungarian?) vote against Juncker didn’t change anything. It’s a sort of democracy Joe, but only just, bearing in mind who was elected and how, so I don’t necessarily accept the sentiments expressed in your last sentence. I believe in a fair democracy not a corrupt one.
No, it’s not a sort of democracy. It is democracy. As someone on this blog said: “Who voted for the David Cameron as Prime Minister?”
I think ‘elected dictatorship’ is more appropriate in many democracies. Unfortunately, as you know, Bernie only believes in dictatorships. Unelected of course.
Tell me where I can vote for the UK Prime Minister?
Hi Richard, I am an Australian so can’t vote for anything EU related. My comment was simply pointing out that you can’t complain about non democracy when you can vote whether you stay or leave. I understand it is a vote in Britain, but at the end of the day the EU will respect your decision and let you leave if that’s what the Brits want. They won’t be sending tanks in like the USSR did in Hungary. To bring the USSR in as your example of a non democratic comparison is a little OTT perhaps.
Many democracies could be regarded as toothless, in many ways that term could be used to describe my govt, and your own, given the control political donors would appear to have over our Parliaments. I can look at ten years of Aust govt and see a country that has been stagnant as a result of undemocratic maneuvering. We’ve had five PM’s in nine years, only two of them were elected, the other three the result of in fighting and leadership challenges. We don’t actually vote for PM of course, it is just the leader of the party that secures enough seats to form Govt gets to claim the PMship, so as with England we don’t vote for a PM, we get given the chosen one by a successful party. Westminster is one, but only one form of democracy, it is important that we all remember that it is not necessarily the best, not the most effective or most inclusive form of democracy out there. Better than a lot of other that’s true, I’d rather have this than nothing of course, but it is not perfect enough to get superior about it…
I don’t really care if you stay in EU or leave it. I don’t care how you vote. I just think the situation isn’t as non democratic as you would like to make out, or at least in the example you gave. Obviously those of us in other parts of the world prefer a peacefully united Europe, but I’m not expecting a war to break out over Brexit, if that’s what you guys choose whatever. I will still think of Brits as Europeans, see Britain as part of Europe, and we will all still love Britain, and all your fellow countries that remain in the EU for the same reasons we love you now. Occasionally we might feel a little sad that you always want to isolate yourselves, but it is your choice.
As an aside, hopefully you will get a laugh that whilst I can’t vote for anything EU related, I can vote in Eurovision this year.
Why would you want to?
You make assumptions dear chap. I said I could, not that I would.
There are so many points wrong with your argument, but I’ll just pick two:
1. ‘After Brexit we will still be able to trade freely with the EU, but we will also be able to trade more freely with the rest of the world.’
There’s no reason we can’t trade with the rest of the world now. I work for businesses that trade all over the world.
2. ‘What you are saying Joe is that you are happy to forgo democracy in exchange for a few no existent benefits the EU offers.’
The democracy argument is a nonsense. No one complains about the unelected bureaucrats (the Civil Service) coming up with policies for the government to consider in the UK. It’s no different in the EU. And in any case, you don’t lose sovereignty by joining the EU, you gain some by being able to access the single market, keep people safe and exert pressure from within the EU to further your own agenda. I know this is a concept people seem to struggle with because the very idea of sovereignty has been hijacked…
In any case, the same rules would apply for us if we left the EU and still wanted to trade with them. We’ll still be passing laws to ensure our products meet the criteria for sale in the single market.
I have to be honest and say that the last thing I’m thinking is “how is this going to affect F1?”
Got to agree with Matt as well, being tempted to vote to leave the EU does not make me right wing! Cameron, Osborne and May are too far right for me. We need to look carefully at the anti-democratic practices of the EU, what they have done to Greece, and their part in signing us all up to the TTIP.
I’m not allowed to vote in this process and it has no effect on me. I thought it would be interesting to look at the possible effects. That’s all.
What the **IMF & World bank** have done to Greece..
The Greeks made their own bed.
And on Friday. TGIF1 to put Joe’s world to rights
I remember racing F3 and F2 in Europe in the late 1960’s. Even with our tiny team with a two wheel trailer being towed by a Ford Anglia Van, we had two box files full of paperwork, carnets, permits, etc, where every spare part had to be listed separately, with a value. It was a full week’s work before a trip just to get the paperwork sorted out.
What a difference doing historic racing and hill climbs in the 2000’s. Just load the cars up in the truck and set off. No paperwork, other than the entry, just remember your competition licences and go.
This is what I was talking about…
We take our old Ruston & hornsby diesel engine to shows each year, including our favourite show at Nuenen, near Eindhoven.
Absolutely no hassle with taking our large trailer, engine and ourselves over to Europe, just book the ferry and go. Wonderful!
Excellent point! We had a project out in Switzerland recently and getting things in and out is painful!
This is probably the biggest issue for Motorsport as a whole with Brexit – the F1/LeMans/Moto GP/WSBK teams will soak it up but the GP3 teams? The FV8 teams? There are an awful lot of British based teams and factories and this will only see a cost increase and thus put more burden on younger drivers to find sponsorship.
You could also see regional series stop making the trips over the water. No more DTM at Brands? No more BSB at Assen?
1.4 percent of the annual budget is damn cheap for all the advantages the EU offers to Britain.
The EU has undergone massive changes since its inception, without any members leaving I think. So I don’t get why there can’t be change for or in Britain without Britain leaving the EU? Or why the only possible action should be to leave the EU?
One quite possible outcome of it could be Scotland leaving Britain to re-join the EU, which would be quite a legacy for David Cameron, although maybe not the one he had in mind when succumbing to UKIP by promising a Brexit vote.
Greenland voted to leave the EU
… but is still working to EU trade laws and is affiliated via Denmark. A population of under 56k. I’ll take that, this sort of is my point.
No, it voted not to join. As far as the Danish government is concerned, Greenland was never in the EU, and EU law has never applied there. It only “left” in the sense that it took about a decade to get the Commission to accept this de facto non-membership.
You are right, but splitting hairs. Denmark joined the European Economic Community in 1973, when Greenland was deemed to be part of Denmark. Greenland was granted home rule in 1979. In 1982 there was a referendum to withdraw from the EEC (which became the EU in 1992).
I seem to recall Alex Salmond getting into a certain amount of hot water back in 2014, after claiming that an independent Scotland would automatically qualify for EU membership. (Fortunately) I missed the final three weeks of build-up to that referendum, to the extent that natives I met in USAnia were more clued-up about it than I was.
I see no reason why an independent Scotland should not apply and be accepted.
Quite likely to be true. However the process would likely take years, and of course they would be required to join the Euro like all new members.
The Euro is not a bad thing. Looking back every time I crossed the border in Europe in the past I lost money while needing to change to the local currency.
Who cares what happens. The UK and Europe are rotting from the inside out.
Move to Asia. Sure, there are problems, but life is still fun there.
Life is still fun in UK and Europe. It’s all in the mind.
Asia, hmmm, but where in Asia? Bangladesh? Pakistan? Wladiwostok?
Obviously not Azerbaijan…
Where?
Laos north of Luang Prabang on Route 13 for beauty and adventure, Ha Noi on the Long Bien Bridge for memories of 70’s TV wars, Singapore for seeing the future before it’s arrived, Taipei for seeing a future gone wrong, HK for excess, Lake Inle for an island of cats, Shanghai to see the Chinese at their best and worst, Nagasaki for stoic rebirth, Con Dao for… well… don’t listen to me. Go discover for yourself.
You can replace every name in this comment with something similar in Europe, except perhaps the cats, but as I’m not overly taken by felines I can live without that!
Perhaps. But what you can’t find in the UK and Europe is genuine hope, excitement and enthusiasm about the future, yet you’ll find it in abundance in all the places I noted.
Read the comments here, from both sides. They’re small-minded, deeply depressing and they accurately reflect where the UK and Europe are and where they’re likely to stay.
Cats are fun. You need to get out more 🙂
I need to get out more? You must be joking. I’m on the road endlessly.
Well that’s your problem right there. You’re too busy moving to notice anything. You need to slow down and play with the street cats. Like I said, it’s fun 🙂
They make me sneeze. They are not fun.
Yeah, those are suggested locations for travelling I presume. But would I want to live there?
Asia then, ok. Egypt (the Asian part), Jordan, Israel, Turkey (the Asian part), UAE, Oman, Indonesia, Philippines. All places I have visited, mostly many times, Indonesia 8 times for example. Driving across Java I had a driver whose biggest dream in life was to visit the Galapagos islands. It would be possible for him to visit them if he had the money. At the moment he doesn’t have it because the saleries in Indonesia are small while corruption is skyrocketing and the government members are rich. Then at a place called Sangiran (Unesco world heritage site) I met Nining, who was working there as a guide explaining the site to me, her biggest dream being to visit Madagascar once, but she isn’t earning enough to pay for the trip. In stark contrast people living in Europe can go travelling to see the world because they usually earn more money than people do in Asia.
I am neither British nor European, but I can sure see the emotion talking in the replies. Joe from reading of your article, you write about how this could possible affect F1, nothing more.
I think a lot of these replies are way too emotional and have little bearing on your article.
Wow this was like kicking a bee’s nest.
We have Donld Trump on our side of the pond.
And he said we should leave. So far this has been the most persuasive argument to stay
Oh lord, Joe. Look what you’ve started. The comments on here are a small percentage to the shouting we have to cope with back in the UK. Both sides are full of rude, arrogant loud mouths who think you’re an idiot if you don’t agree with them and you’re biased against them as you’re not giving them a fair hearing and you’re favouring the other side.
From my point of view, the article was a fair thought on the possibilities of both sides on the affect it could have within the F1 circles.
Should there be a referendum in France on the same issue, find yourself a bunker until it’s all over!
Salut!
The French do not have the same island mentality. They realise that keeping sweet with the Germans is smart after three rounds of killing one another. OK, the hopelessly inefficient farmers still whine and drop cow manure and rotten tomatoes outside their mairies, but they get paid fortunes by the EU which they seem to forget. I believe UK farmers receive roughly £2.5-3bn a year in EU subsidies, and these too will disappear. So how will UK farmers survive in a market where they struggle to survive with the EU subsidies? OK you stop foreign imports, but then what? Prices rise…
They will be a subsidy direct from the uk out of the £10billion savings we will make not paying the EU. Why give the money to the EU for them to decide how to spend it. We can dcide for ourselves thank you very much.
Yes, and you are deciding for me, so make the choice wisely. Thank you.
Oh stop making economic sense Joe! 🙂
The money we pay the EU will apparently pay for hospitals, our own subsidys, our own infra structure. I think they will put it in a magic bag where it will grow ex potentially!
I have scant faith in the way the EU is run, systemically. I support the common trade zone and the lack of tariffs, which are of benefit to F1 as to many others, but fundamentally doubt that the goals or best interests of the Brussels nomenklatura align with those of many member nation states. Not least is the evolution of a FIFA-style electorate of nations, such that a majority of poor minor nations can be induced to use their numbers to pursue an agenda of shared self-interest with an unaccountable leadership. I don’t believe such a paradigm can end well (Gorbachev spoke of his puzzlement at the apparent wish to emulate Soviet Union mistakes by the EU) – thus individual short term examples of the benefits of staying in are meaningless, aside from lacking the dignity of deep principle. The best possible outcome of Brexit could be the hastening of reform of the EU paradigm away from wanton expansion and a federalist agenda which aggrandises the EU leadership but which does not serve the interests of nations such as the UK.
Its all getting a bit emotional, at the end of the day we have to decide if we want to play nicely with our neighbours in a protectionist liberal melee or chase the capitalist dream on a never-ending hamster wheel of increased productivity and competitiveness.
I dont like being told what to do by Brussels, but I like my neighbours and their cheese.
They like the UK labour market, but the young French entrepreneurs will go to the US or wherever if Britain pulls the plug
Hang on Mike, we make superb cheese, including Brie! (And I love French cheese as well, by the way).
To be honest I don’t see the difference with being run by Brussels or Whitehall. All are politicians. I see huge advantages of being a federal union. It certainly served America well. Brexit is the equivalent of Texas leaving the USA. Not the smartest idea ever!
The last time States seceded from that union there was trouble…
Uh oh, do you think France might invade England if it votes for Brexit?
Yes it has one aircraft carrier and so is ready for massive military intervention…
Its one more than the UK currently has then….!
Forget a conventional war. They will find other means via the EU, if they want to stirr trouble. However that’s a very big ‘IF’.
Big fish eat small fish. Always has been and always will be.
Joe, thank you for your post on this topic.
Your comments in regard to Brexit are just as relevant to the state and future of Formula 1 as your other posts about many other issues that are relevant to the state and future of Formula 1. Whilst I understand that Brexit is an emotional issue for some Brits I am disappointed at some of the comments directed at you. All you have done is point out some potential business implications affecting F1 if a split is supported. Surely any business that does business between EU and Britain would be doing that right now in light of the impending vote. I would think it possible that you go into even more detail on this subject in your Business of Motorsport e-newsletter. If this is the case I would be surprised if you were told “Stay out of politics Joe” by BoM e-news subscribers.
I wonder if a Brexit would have any impact on any possible EU Commission rulings for F1. I may be over complicating things, but then any kind of break up is complicated, whether it be personal or geopolitical.
As an Australian I can’t/shouldn’t really comment on Brexit. I will however venture that even if the British do vote to stay in Europe, and UKIP takes a dive, there will still be problems with right wing extremism in Britain. The Brits are obviously not alone in this, my own country has some issues, as do many others. It is just an observation though, I’m not trying to argue against anything that you have posted.
Unfortunately, I think extremism, whether it fits anyone’s definition of being left or right, is here to stay for a little while longer. As for left or right, well the results are the same whatever we call it, and ultimately I think once people get to that point the ideology of hate far outstrips any pretence of political orientation. I do appreciate that I am fairly alone in believing left and right to no longer be relevant in modern political discourse.
btw please stay in politics Joe. It is your blog after all.
I shall. They people who say “Stay out of this or that…” Should really heed their own advice and stay out of the blog.
A vote to stay in the EU ends the question only if it is very decisive – a 52-48 vote to stay or something closer is a prescription for a never-ending battle and almost certainly another referendum in the not too distant future – the thing about referendums is the advocates never think it is over no matter how many times they lose – it is only over forever in their minds once they win the first time
A democracy is a democracy. This is how it functions and it will kill the issue for a generation at least. It is two generations since the last such vote.
It’s unfortunate that so many comments are shot down because some of them are good even if one might not agree with them.
Whether a Brexit happens or not, I doubt it would really affect the F1 world (or business in general, more on that later).
In general getting VISA/working permits for skilled workers isn’t a problem at all. I’m sure most F1 teams are already employing people outside of the EU as well so I don’t see this being a real issue.
Same goes for transportation. Once you are in EU mainland you can drive wherever you want so worst case scenario is that getting through customs is going to take some more time but chances are that even in case of a Brexit happening a lot of rules and regulations regarding this sort of thing wont change.
Apart from that the EU isn’t really a problem as long as it sticks to trade. I don’t think a lot of people are against the EU when it comes to making trade inside member countries easier and give EU members more power by acting as one when negotiating with countries outside the EU.
The problem is Brussels wanting to make a political union and force laws affecting everyday life and often clashing with how people in a certain country feel. I agree with this. The EU should stick with trade and otherwise leave member countries to rule countries as they see fit.
Unfortunately we are stuck with lunatics like Junckers who have no problems saying things like governments are paying too much attention to voters. In other words screw you plebs, we know whats good for you. All while lining their own pockets, of course.
Europe is the only continent that has experienced zero economic growth over the past decade, i.e. from 2006 to 2015 (GDP). Why would a great country like the UK want to lash itself to the economic basket case known as the EU?
Great Britain fought a civil war over the right to self determination and the right to only be taxed and subject to laws created by elected leaders, and Great Britain’s offspring did the same. Why would a country with that history of political freedom make itself subservient to a corrupt, unelected bureaucracy in Brussels?
Open borders with unlimited immigration is fundamentally incompatible with the welfare state. You can have open borders if there is no welfare state, as was the case with the USA in through the early 1900s.
And the individual countries?
Do you mean England Scotland and Wales? Scotland had a referendum and chose not to secede, and Wales has not expressed the desire to any degree. Certainly if they wish to secede they may do so. Not sure if Englan can secede from them, however!
I mean none of this. I mean F1 and Brexit, whatever that is.
A brave piece Joe, it was only going to ever create a storm. I personally believed in a common market which gives most of the freedoms you mention, but am going to vote to leave due to the federalist drift in the E.U. . My real disappointment is the way that either side is so closed to even considering another viewpoint completely closing down a proper debate on this. The whole vote is being driven by emotion and not reasoned argument with both sides claiming the sky will fall in but not giving reasoned arguments. It is not as black and white as either side is claiming. As an aside although I do not always agree with you, I enjoy your writing and the passion that comes across.
From the point of view of this old git:
When I left school in 1968 I and all my friends got a good job. O levels or the odd A level were all that were needed, not a Degree or as now I hear a Masters Degree. People were not coming out of university and getting a job at the check out in the Co-Op. Apprenticeships were common, they lasted four or five years and there was a significant amount of formal education and a proper qualification at the end of it. Someone I know has just started a one year apprenticeship with a day at college every two weeks and works until 8pm most nights of the week. Apprenticeships are hard to find.
When, in 1975 I voted to go into the EEC I worked in a high tech. industry that no longer exists. That was the sort of high tech. industry that we are now being promised if we stay in!
To me, in essence, none of the significant things that were promised have materialised and many of the significant things we had have disappeared.
To add to that it is now on record, from their own mouths, that many of the politicians who recommended us to joint this “trading union” misled us with that notion because they didn’t think we would vote for a “political union”, although that was the agenda all along.
In closing I will say that there seems to be a general theme in the discussions about choices that are monetarily biased. That’s we should do this or that because we will be richer. The riches of life are not only measured in money. Indeed I wonder if chasing money devalues it.
There is more to this choice about the EU than money, as Gary has so eloquently pointed out above self determination, self respect, self responsibility and, dare I say it, pride are more important. Yet when I look at and listen to many of our young people today those values are not present.
Those values placed in the pursuit of business, work and life in general are far more likely to produce money than chasing money itself.
So, EU, forty odd years ago, in my mid twenties, for the promise of better things, I gave you my vote. Forty odd years later, for people in their mid twenties (and a lot of others) things are a lot worse.
EU, you have had your chance and failed.
To paraphrase a well known TV show “I’m out!”.
Well I’m sure we all feel better now knowing what you want to do
Next time you think of criticising someone for being impolite I suggest you go and take a look in the mirror first.
You are a guest in my house. If you are rude it is my right to throw you out. I don’t do that very often. I want to be inclusive, but that does not mean that I will not respond to people who are rude or lack respect. You get what you deserve. And if that does not suit you, that is fine. No-one forces you to come here. It is this kind of stuff that makes me wonder whether it is best to switch to rigid registration for commenters, so that they are accountable for their behaviour.
Have I missed something here? Where, pray, was Robert impolite? He offered an interesting perspective. Your response was – shall we say – somewhat tetchy which is, I guess, your right.
As ‘guests in your house’ we have a duty to be polite. We don’t have a duty to agree with you or to fail to offer an opinion, stated respectfully. And you, as our host, have a duty to display tolerance when you knowingly write a post likely to provoke strong emotions from your readership.
Robert, our host clearly does not care what you think but I found it interesting and well argued. I disagree with your conclusion but I’m grateful for your contribution to this discussion.
Delighted you are so happy and feel the need to spout forth.
It’s my birthday today. Why aren’t you being nice to me? Everyone else is.
*sulks*
Happy birthday. Is that nice enough?
I appreciate your good wishes. Thank you 🙂
Thank you.
I am old, have worked all over, long time in the motor industry, raced, run teams and have lived in France for the last 10 years.
I thought your article was very fair and balanced and so you know my colours I think it would be absolutely crazy for the UK to leave the EU.
One small example just before entry I was working in France drove a British manufactured car but sometimes with UK plates and sometimes French. Without fail every time I came and went I spent an hour and a half in the customs at Le Havre or Southampton discussing if I should be paying some special duties and one time I had to take the car directly to a UK tax free compound.
The bombastic opportunistic Boris will say F1 and the rest of us have nothing to fear. Glib. All sorts of inconveniences will be put in the way of the freedoms we currently enjoy.
We are an island with all the benefits and inconveniences that that already gives. There is much nonsense, often very emotive, talked about the EU even within these comments that are normally pretty sage and fanned by a couple of the daily rags.
Bernie will not be able to pull his Kremlin strings every time a special part is needed urgently, life will become a whole lot less straightforward for nearly everyone and certainly F1 or any other category of racing where travel to Europe is involved will get far more trying.
The French are just as French as they ever were, also the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Italians and Spanish. I have lived and/or worked in all of them.
Inevitably we stray from the primary subject but F1 as with much motor racing is a very international activity and will undoubtedly suffer. And for what ?
I find that those who have travelled have a more rounded view of the world. Those who sit on an island, looking at the world through the TV may not have a sensible picture of what it is like out there.
Great piece Joe – really interesting
It’s a no-brainer –
Donald Trump’s advice is to leave,
Thus I’ll vote to stay.
As others have already mentioned, an emotional response will probably rule the day.
Looked as a purely F1 issue, it will have little effect i’d think. One has to realise that Bernie & Co have influence everywhere. So does Phillip Morris…..now how come a company banned from sponsoring a sport, yet still be a major, or even the major, sponsor of a big F1 team? Wheels within wheels! So i doubt F1 will be troubled at all, and remember nothing huge happens on June 24th, the day after the referendum, this is just the start of 2 years of exit negotiation, so F1 won’t be affected until June 2018 if this happens!
On travel in general, i travelled Europe in the 1970’s and 80’s, and the paperwork needed never troubled me, nor did border checks, which were a good thing in my view. There are still things needed for European travel, such as breathalyser kits for France for instance!
As to the UK in general, we are part of the Commonwealth, as massive amount of countries that we have long ignored for trade, so anything the EU did against us would not impact greatly, and i can’t see BMW ( who famously used to call us Treasure Island as we paid more for their cars than anyone else would! ) shutting down sales here. Nor Merc, VW etc etc, we are a more important market to the EU than they are to us.
Toyota might have squealed but Nissan ( Renault ) are staying and expanding regardless of the vote, so too Honda, and Boeing is moving facilities to us and doens’t care what the result is.
Small business is very supportive of Leaving, Big business like BA says it doesn’t matter, although some Big Business, notably Banks, are opposed. And don’t worry about our farmers here Joe, as the Government has confirmed that if we leave they will get the subsidies that currently we pay to the EU for farming. They would likely get more actually as out farmers currently get about 40% of the farming subsidy money we pay to the EU with French & Spanish farmers getting our cash.
Getting out of an organisation that is decaying as the EU is, is comparable with the mess F1 is in now. F1 has a limited number of people sucking it dry financially and the EU operates like CVC. This should be no surprise as it is a Political Project supported by Banking…..and so we all should know what the objective is….Banking Profit!
As to the Euro, nothing except Nazism and Communism has wrought more grief on Europeans than this failing monetary system, and as an Historian Joe, you should remember that there have been other attempts at imposing a Fixed and Overall Currency on a gathering of European countries in past history, albeit that the numbers imposed upon were fewer than the Euro covers, and each time they failed for the simple reason that a Single Currency cannot work with differing, divergent Economies. Most Economists have noted this since the Euro was proposed and then imposed. And the ones who said that have further noted that it is not a case of IF the Euro fails, but WHEN that failure occurs.
I’ll take your word for it
Napoleon was one of those who tried it, and it didn’t work out for him!
Tried what?
A Euro-type single currency.
Wow, you rocked the boat with this article, maybe unintended. Look at all the comments! And a lot not about F1, but that you might have expected?
On F1, what do you reckon an exit would do in the long run? Mercedes shifting their F1 team to Germany, RBR to Austria? And taking a lot of English staff along?
I don’t know, but I doubt they would leave the UK cluster. It makes no sense.
“This would be the primary difference if there was no single economic unit: ”
I’m puzzled by this comment of yours, there is no single economic unit (if you are including the UK in the discussion, which I think you are). There is no change if UK stays or leaves EU. Pound Sterling and Euro.
“They also want Britain to retake full control of its borders”
Except that their argument is wrong, Britain currently has full control of it’s borders. That’s why there is passport control when you enter the UK.
As for the disappearance of apprenticeships, as one of you readers writes, that is down to Margaret Thatcher. A serious mistake in policy.
This is absolutely correct. Britain has control of its borders now. This is why there are 6,000 immigrants living rough or in camps around Calais and why there are miles and miles of new security fences (and a permanent police presence) around the Eurotunnel terminal. The Little Englanders don’t see that. Nor do they consider the fact that British immigration formalities are carried out in Calais. If Britain pulls out of Europe, the immigration checks will move back to Britain. The French will not worry about stopping those who want to go to England but will have no compunction to accept those who Britain rejects. Why should they? France has accepted far more immigrants in the last two years than Britain has done. A government minister over here has already said that if Britain leaves the EU, the likelihood is that the camps will move to British soil because there is no longer any reason why the French should pay to protect a non-member state.
It seems to me that people in Britain and not looking at the realities that exist today and also not at what this vote could bring.
However, all I wanted to do was to get people thinking about the motorsport industry and Brexit, I did not want to get endless opinions about who wants what on subjects unrelated to the sport.
The argument on border control is never put properly. Although we have a measure of control, many people enter the country after having disposed of their passports and id on their journey, and cannot be expelled….the same applies to those who enter via lorries….a few weeks back, i saw 10-12 people jump out of the back of a truck at a motorway services on the M27 not far from where i live. They weren’t using the service facilities as they just ran across the fuel station and up into a wooded area above and then disappeared…….this happens a lot….and for the benefit of others, several million have moved here in the last 10 years or so….how many even our Government cannot say with any clarity, this is why we want proper controls, it is absolutely nothing to do with racism or any other ism, it is all about the numbers, nothing else.
Surely this is an argument that Britain has failed do the controlling. Why would leaving the EU solve this problem? The EU is quite clear. Controlling immigrants in the UK is a UK affair. If they are getting in with ease then that is a UK failing not an EU one. If you want immigrants stopped at the European borders then you need to be part of Europe and pay your part of the cost of border policing. Do you think that Greece or Spain should be paying to stop illegal immigrants reaching the UK when the UK may have left the EU. The faster they can shove them across the Channel the less they have to deal with.
No the problem is that European countries with economies that are stagnant ( France ) or bankrupt ( Greece and several others ) are just being passed through by Economic Migrants who want to come to the UK because our wages and benefit systems are attractive. We on the other hand cannot remove people for any reason as they have EU legal backing to stay. This makes it an open door here. If we leave the EU we can apply our own law to the problem. We already pay more than most if not all EU countries in Aid to places like Syria to attempt to keep people there rather than crossing Europe to the UK. There are so many socio-economic and cultural issues to this matter that it is not so simple as you thought that we should guard Europe’s borders for the EU!
Much of the investment that was required in Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc has now been done. That was a drain on resources. There is still much to be done, but standards of living are beginning to find a balance. Who is to say that this will not lead to growth across the board?
I think the time has come to wrap up Brexit, unless posts relate specifically to motorsport. This was the point of the post.
I have a friend, ex military, who has a very simple solution that he claims we would have done 150 years ago, shoot everybody.
We do not, thank God live in that era and with modern times come modern responsibilities. We no longer shoot those we do not like. I believe it is a Geneva Convention that once someone has reached the shores of a country in principle there they may stay.
Generally Britain has welcomed and absorbed, to its betterment those that wished to come here and presumably that includes the ancestors of Mr Cullinane.
The day that people do not wish to come to Britain will be when we truly know that our place and our values no longer matter.
Back to F1, we import and export our expertise and personnel to our betterment and long may it remain so.
Hi Joe,
As the variety of your commenter observations show, you’ve opened a discussion far more involved then F1 regarding the “Brexit” (whatever that stands for) vote issue. Yes I realize it is a vote to go/stay as an EU member.
As an American I CAN relate to any border security discussion, especially in light of the border “Final Solution” (implication intended) as espoused by our soon to be republican presidential candidate Donald Trump.
No easy answers here in the USA, as we are not an island state, but our potential policy changes may turn us into an isolationist island once again. We all know how well that worked out in the 1930’s.
Some would argue that you are already a very big island!
Well said Joe.
Timely and sensible comments regarding the ill informed perception that Britain has lost control of it’s borders thanks to EU.
Hi Joe
Importantly, your post prompted my to register as an overseas voter (I moved to Australia 11 years ago).
I also wrote this post on LinkedIn about it:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/brexit-art-formula-1-alex-bell?published=t
Keep up the great work on this and GP+
Joe,
In relation to your article and how it affects F1 it seems that you are wondering about how an exit from Europe may affect the industry. Many of us are. I started out working in the sport some years ago in composites before moving to one of the ‘cottage industry’ suppliers, manufacturing composite components. Over a number of years we dealt with all bar two of the teams on the current grid, and all of the teams that have fell by the wayside since the turn of the century. I’ve also dealt with two former ChampCar manufacturers and a host of companies in other disciplines internationally.
Although I’ve moved on in the last couple of years I’ve seen first hand how this section of the industry has developed. The days of paying whatever it costs to manufacture a component yesterday and pay whatever it costs to deliver it now are gone. As you know there is a growing supply chain in both Germany and Italy (the WEC/DTM hardly use British companies these days). Go to many of the European manufacturers/suppliers and you will find well paid British employees there. The risk to the smaller companies in the UK is real if the UK exits Europe. Aside from this is there an inevitability in the globalisation of the industrial side of the sport? Not in the immediate future there isn’t, but the long game would see an erosion at one level or another. That is not to say that McLaren or Williams are going to disappear, but the way they do things may change drastically.
The thing I find interesting about the article is where I live, Sunderland, there is huge reliance of the Nissan Washington plant for employment. (Yes, the plant is in Washington, not Sunderland…… it is a very sticky issue here when national media refer to the plant being in Sunderland!!) I can see the plant from my bedroom window, I’ve worked there, I know many who currently work there, the majority of my neighbours are Leaf driving middle management, but do you know what? A lot of them would love to be out of Europe. In a city that is almost 95% white and where you vote Labour unquestionably from birth you may be surprised by the open casual racism and strongly anti EU attitudes openly displayed on high streets and estates in the area. It really isn’t that far from exaggeration unfortunately. It shows that some people are happy to bite the hand that feeds for nothing more than national pride. Puzzling.
Back on track though, the supply chain survived the early to mid 2000s when the likes of Arrows, Prost, Reynard and Lola disappeared, a time where smaller F1 teams took more work in house. I fear that an an EU exit would have a hugely detrimental effect upon the whole industry in the long term. When you add in things such as the shift coming in LMP2 manufacturing you begin to see the foundations of the industry shift to foreign shores. Britain retaining its crown as the centre of motorsport technology isn’t as secure as it was 15-20 years ago to begin with, this won’t help.
I’m no politician and try to keep my views to myself, there are many other places for the Daily Mail or Huff Post readers to vent their steam, I avoid them safe in the knowledge that I’ll stick to my guns when voting time comes and on most days that sites like yours are a haven from all of that! What happens happens and we move forward. C’est la vie ( I hope I used that phrase correctly, my French is terrible, I spent 3 schoolboy years laughing at the French for swimming pool!)
One of the main differences I have noticed between the UK and the rest of Europe is the lack of publicity for the funding projects get from the EU. This means that most people in the UK have little understanding of how much they benefit from membership.
My greatest fear, should the UK vote to exit, is that the other member countries will decide that they need to make an example of the U.K. to make leaving less attractive to other members. That would severely impact on every aspect of the U.K. economy as the bureaucracy of any interaction with the rest of Europe would increase and with it the cost.
The EU is far from perfect, but at least as a member we have some influence
nice piece of market research on your part joe , regretfully it shows that the average age of the potential customers for your on line magazine is pretty high …the reality is that the vast majority of the brexiters are either politicians who want greater power or the over 60’s who believe that the uk would return to the old days when it was a major power
however the under 30’s overwhelmingly want to remain [ 80% according to the last survey that I saw ] …unfortunately , as in the rest of the world , it is the older generation who turn out to vote whereas the young don’t even register ..notice that voting at 16 as in the scottish referendum was refused ; seeing that it is the young who will be most affected by the result that seems wrong to me …if you are old enough to marry you should be old enough to vote is my view
incidentally , someone commented that we export cars to japan , true but misleading ; rather than have empty ships sailing back to japan why not get a few extra sales by shipping a few euro models back at no cost ? the numbers in the other direction are many times larger ; if the uk is going to be so strong on it’s own how come every car manufacturer is foreign owned ? they wanted to invest in the EU …need I say more ?
I’m curious about one thing though ….what happens if there is a narrow vote to leave ? with the young not voting that would probably mean perhaps 30% of the electorate voting to leave [ is there anyone who doesn’t think it will be close ? ] ; if I understand correctly it would take an act of parliament to withdraw …would this get passed ?
btw joe , it’s worse that watching TV …..a large proportion of the brexiters I have talked too read the Daily Wail …not recommended as far as objective reporting is concerned
but as far as the effect on F1 goes I think bernie will minimise any adverse effects , how long before he has cancelled the rest of the european races ?
Yes, it does. The average F1 fan is someone who is not very up to speed with modern technology. The youngsters who are, do not get excited about F1. It is a problem for everyone.
Yes, a remain vote will render UKIP obsolete, just like the scottish independence referendum destroyed the SNP and made them an irrelevance in Scottish politics. Oh, wait a minute…..
Personally I don’t think F1 will be affected either way, the teams have enough money to work within whatever regulatory framework emerges after the 23rd.
Some years ago Peter Sauber mentioned to me the hassle of having to get new carnets – roughly, the paperwork to allow the tax-free movement of goods across borders – every time he had to move the cars out of Switzerland to a race.
I mentioned this to a friend who ran the Zurich Chamber of Commerce, and he said Sauber should got to see him and they would issue annual carnets, which is what happened and simplified administration at Hinwil considerably.
As an owner of a small UK manufacturing company employing 20+ people with 1/3rd of our business within the EU my decision is easy. I be voting to stay in the EU as it better to vote for what you know. I have no reason to want different as my business has done well being in the EU.
I cannot help think that the F1 community will in general be thinking along the same lines. Leaving will change things. Whether that is good, bad and happens in a quick or slow time, I do not know. But there will be changes in the EU/UK relationship.
Personally I wish there was not a referendum as I fear people will vote with emotion rather than facts. Real facts (both for in or for out) seem to be hard to find at the moment. There are some things that it best left to the Government to decide and in my opinion this was one of them.
Thank you for your balanced blog Joe, I thought it was brave to write one on this subject…
I personally don’t think In or Out will affect F1 at all.
As a first generation UK citizen (both parents born in Republic of Ireland), I am inclined to vote In, but one fear I have is that the EU is getting so big, certain country groups could end up dominating, much like the Eurovision song contest – and the economic inequalities between all these diverse countries makes the Euro currency a continuing disaster waiting to happen
Ah, someone who is discussing the blog post…
Quite a laughable thread so far! F1 won’t even register on the radar of anyone interested in politics and ‘Brexit’. Teams will stay as they are. Can you imagine relocating a team to another country, it would kill the team financially and competitively.
The replies so far have shown how the referendum is dividing the country and in many cases bringing out the worst in people. Great Britain….hardly!
The blog post does not say that Brexit will change anything. The rest I cannot be blamed for…
You didn’t mention the running of F1 itself Joe, I notice. It was the EU’s competition lawyers who forced everyone’s hand is now, by default, responsible for the administrative mess F1 finds itself in. I wonder what affect Brexit would have in the running of the sport?
They would still have a say because F1 races in venues across Europe.
What about the far-left political entities? Can cause way more damage but are not being mentioned.
Having come from an underprivileged back ground or rather third world country and having spent time in UK/EU on work and leisure, I marvel about what EU has achieved post WW2 in terms of high standard of living and human development index. I would call this the pinnacle of human civilization. EU is a shining light for democracy, human rights and social care. I would be so sorry to see it unravel in the shape of brexit. I hope F1 people just like others do not loose their livelihood due to a political decision.
Surprised to see such a badly researched piece form you joe, ukips policies are generally social democrat and meritocratic and their immigration policy is isolationist rather than right wing inasmuch as the hard left and right have very similar views with more robust methods of implementation. I am undecided on my vote but there are larger issues to consider than F1. I think the relatively small pond of F1 technocracy will not have much trouble me from Brexit or from continued submission to Europe – the risks are fairly similar given the pandering to unsavoury dictators that BE indulges in.
Read the piece again. It’s not rocket science. It doesn’t say anything much.
Having just got back from two days away, I am catching up.
This has given me a great hour of reading.
Thank you Joe and all the rest of you.
What a great Blog entry and great responses, overall.
Much better than catch up TV.
Anyway, I am fully across every argument and view.
And I am still undecided how I will vote.
The current tilting point for me is that of visas.
I travel across Europe around eight times each year.
If we leave, it will be more time and hassle.
The same will impact on F1 teams and personnel.
A hassle but do-able.
But…… why throw this away?
And I have to think of my grand children as they discover the wonders of European culture with their parents, having done so with us.
An airport, security and passport control is bad enough. Why add possible American, and others, visa controls?
I think I am almost there with my decision.
I respectfully disagree that a remain vote would be bad for UKIP. I think a small remain vote could be wonderful for UKIP, if the Scottish referendum is anything to go by. IMO, the vote was set up to deal with internal conservative party politics, but the conservatives are currently tearing themselves apart. It is hard to see how they will heal the divisions post vote, whichever way it goes.
I *think* Switzerland has a deal with the EU, where they pay a load of cash, and loosen work/border restrictions, in return for free trade, much like Norway. I’m not sure the Brexiters want to follow this model. Some of them want to withdraw completely. Very worrying. As usual with these things, they say “see, we’ve given you a vote, just like you wanted. No! Not that answer! We need your to agree with us now!” I think the whole vote has been handled very badly by Cameron, who is clearly worse than useless at negotiating. IMO!
We can agree to disagree. There will always be people who will support UKIP, but I think once the European question is voted upon, there will likely a generation or more before the question comes up again.
Quick thank you to everyone for the discussion. It has been a fascinating education and taught me much that I didn’t know. Good luck with however it goes.
This stream of comments was triggered by Joe’s original post “F1 and Brexit”, and he has tried to call it to order and bring it back on ‘track’.
The discussion that has resulted has in the main reflected well on those with an interest in F1. It is far more balanced and contains views, for and against from those with experience of having to work in the system.
A pleasant change from the comments sections on websites of the more mainstream press, which are just a no go area, populated by rabid fanatics of both persuasions.