Williams has confirmed that Felipe Massa will leave the team (again) at the end of the season. Massa retired last year but came back this season after Mercedes required Valtteri Bottas to replace the retiring Nico Rosberg. Massa joined Williams in 2014 and helped the team secure third place in the Constructors’ Championship in 2014 and 2015, and fifth place in 2016.
“I have now enjoyed four great years with the team, but my career in Formula 1 will finally come to an end this season,” Massa said.
The team says it will announce its 2018 driver line-up in due course. Massa’s retirement means that the choice for Williams has one fewer name, but the booting out of Danniil Kvyat from Scuderia Toro Rosso might perhaps add another name to the list. Others who should be considered “possibles” are Robert Kubica, Paul di Resta, Pascal Wehrlein and, perhaps, Marcus Ericsson. The key question is whether Williams needs money. Of the available choices Wehrlein would seem to be the best choice, but only if he can bring support from Mercedes, perhaps in the form of technical assistance.
joeblogsf1 
Tough choices.
Cannot agree that Wehrlein is the best choice – overrated and sruggles to beat Ericsson. Let Massa bow out after Brazil, run Kubica for the last two races, if he’s good keep him for 2018, if not sign Kvyat
There is only one race this season after Interlagos in Abu Dhabi.
Rumour has it that if Kubica actually goes F1 racing then he’ll have to repay a sizeable insurance payout that he got back in the day, which is only worth his while if he gets a full-time drive. So any one-off drives are most unlikely to happen.
If that is the case, would it not be in the interest of the insurers to waive repayment short of a full-time contract? There seems little doubt that Kubica doing well in a race or two would make a full-time offer all but inevitable, wheras strict application of this term, by disincentivising such a tryout drive, makes a full-time drive offer a much greater leap of faith and thus repayment of the insurance money less likely.
Joe,
Isn’t Pascal 23? Remind me, what age the driver need to be for Williams to their Martini responsibilities?
Williams might keep Massa for the Martini promotional activities.
Martini would prefer a driver aged over 25, but Paddy Lowe has said that it’s not a hard requirement and they’d relax it if the team felt it was necessary.
Hopefully Williams as the racers racers will be brave enough to take as risk with Kubica. The other 3 haven’t set the world alight while The Kubica of old was smoking hot! As he said himself “just give me a roof over my head and a car to race”!
The thing is, those performances that Kubica put in back in his day are getting on for a long time in the past now.
His last race in F1 was seven years ago now, and if he returned in 2018 it would be one of the longest ever intervals in the career of a driver in F1. I know there are those that want it to happen, but I feel that there are those who are well within their rights to question whether he really does still have it now that many years have passed since those glory days.
Not a record, though. Remember Jan Lammers leaving F1 in ’82, only to return in ’92? And Jan is still competative in LeMans at 61, so he’d fit the “Martini-demand” easily. So Jan Lammers will join Lance Stroll at Williams in 2018…
There are a lot of factors at play in this decision. Lance Stroll has made it considerably easier for them. The team now aren’t in the position they were last winter, when they needed a solid driver opposite a very moneyed, very young and very raw rookie. The way Stroll has settled down and is delivering points consistently means they are in a position to take a bit of a risk in the other car.
Which risk to take, though? In terms or risk vs. reward, Kubica is clearly weights heavily in both columns. The reward is modern F1’s lost World Champion. The risk is him not being physically capable of driving the car on its limits for the required amount of time.
Then you’ve got di Resta, who actually gave a good account of himself in his three years at Force India, but paid the price for a loss of form in the second half of 2013. There’s little risk, here. The team know Paul well, like him and have been pleased with his times. The question mark is, how much potential reward is there? Based on his previous seasons, you’d have to say Paul is a bit better than Adrian Sutil and not quite as good as Nico Hulkenberg. Is that ambitious enough for a team in Williams’ position? I’m not sure.
Then you have the young guns, whom Martini will accept if the team argues for them. Kvyat is another with high values in both risk and reward. At this point, it’s easy to forget how well he performed in his first two years in the sport. In his first year at Red Bull, he was pretty close to Ricciardo, a Tier Two driver who could deliver championships with competitive machinery. He’s looked mentally shattered since then, though. Williams might fancy themselves as the ones to rebuild him, but personally I think it’s too big a risk.
Especially when Pascal Wehrlein is in the frame.
Wehrlein’s stock fell when Force India passed him over in favour of Esteban Ocon, but at this point it’s clear that Ocon is pretty bloody good. Wehrlein has consistently delivered good pace and results during his time in F1 and though the criticisms of his attitude still hurt him, he seems to have been suitably chastened by that. I haven’t heard any complaints on that score from Manor or Sauber, certainly. Personally, if the question marks over Kubica’s fitness can’t be adequately resolved, it’s Pascal I’d be turning to.
Ricciardo is tier 1 not 2
Did he jump or was he pushed?
I am sure he would have gone on if he could have gone on, but I guess soemone told him, it wasn’t going to happen.
He’d have looked more graceful if he hadn’t bitched publicly about the inadequacies of his rivals for the drive. Pretty clear after that that he’s been pushed.
Agreed, that was starting to look pretty desperate to me. Do it with the team behind closed doors if you must but to do it in public wasn’t his greatest move if you ask me.
That’s part and parcel of F1, though. No one within the sport would have taken it personally. It was just Felipe’s way of telling the team that if they wanted to publicly court other drivers, he wasn’t going to be their fall back option. Clearly, he wasn’t bluffing.
It’s actually not unreasonable, from his perspective. He’s given the team four years of stability and leadership, and has driven pretty well (apart from the latter half of 2016, maybe). He also came out of retirement when they needed him to. In his position, I think most people would object to being kept on the back burner while the team’s eye wanders very publicly.
+1
The problem is that his criticism was a) transparently self-interested and b) to me at least didn’t even look very credible. Not a great combo.
Its difficult when we, as outsiders,only get to see what is reported. For me personally I would have felt better about the situation if he hadn’t taken to undermining the other candidates and simply focussed on how he could take the team forward. He may have brought stability but I don’t see too much evidence of leadership or outright speed.
Time to move on 🙂
I suspect he’s given the team an ultimatum of sorts: give me a new contract by Interlagos or you can forget about me being your fallback option for 2018. He doesn’t want to be like Rubens and miss out on a grand send off in Sao Paulo because he hung on for a contract that didn’t materialise, or a repeat of last year: a big goodbye that wasn’t actually goodbye.
Unfortunately, Kvyat and Wehrlein are both 23, so unlikely to get the seat unless Martini have a radical rethink about their title sponsorship deal with the team.
For different reasons, I’d like to see Kubica (unfinished business) or di Resta (to get him off the Sky F1 coverage) in a drive again, but they have to be long odds.
On the other hand, I’d not heard before of Ericsson’s name being in the frame, and at 27 he’d pass the Martini test. He’d likely turn up with a bucket-load of cash, too.
However, as his sponsorship comes from the same money as runs Sauber now, is he free to make a change?
Martini, I’m told, will understand if the team chooses a younger driver.
Joe – do you see this as a realisation that the Martini sponsorship may not be renewed?
No
Why do you support Wehrlein so much? For weeks you have been pushing his cause for the Williams seat.
Yes, he is a good driver, but he is not a future great or likely not even a future race winner. Ocon on the other hand is and now a season has passed, one can fully understand why Force India made the decision it did.
People deride Ericsson, but he hasn’t been as woeful as say Palmer or Gianni Lavaggi (from yesteryear!) and Pascal has not had the beating of him that he should have done.
At best Wehrlein could be a good solid points scoring mid field driver for years to come. A sort of Perez.
He’s clearly the best driver out there
Joe
Your replies say so little but while saying so much. Wehrlein it is then😀
No, it’s not certain.
Wehrlein is every bit as good as Ocon
Now we disagree…
This time last year, I thought that might be the case and thought that Merc should have taken a risk with Wehrlein, but that has all changed this year.
Ocon’s currency has risen sharply, while Wehrlein’s has fallen back. I expected him to show Ericsson a clean pair of heals. Perhaps that is why Erricson’s name is now in the frame for the Williams drive.
Williams could definitely use a Perez right now. It’s truly ridiculous Williams is considering Di Resta (didn’t light the world on fire AND hasn’t had a full season in years) and Kubica (disabled and hasn’t raced a full season in years). I’d say Wehrlein and Kvyat (if you believe he deserves a team that believes in him) should fight it out.
Di Resta was only a smidgeon off the pace of the highly rated Hulkenberg, and as for ‘not having a full season’; in years – he proved able to get within the pace of his teammate after a handful of laps in in a qualifying session after having not driven for years – you have to fancy with a full time drive he would be very much on it.
As for Kubica, this was a man who dragged a BMW sauber squad into title winning contention up until the penultimate race of the 2008 season against the might of Ferrari and Mclaren… and the positive publicity williams would have would lift the team and be an almost hollywood-esque marketing dream.
I can almost envisage a job share between these two if Kubica’s issues do become troublesome at somewhere like Monaco.
Kyvatt would be a poor choice, probably making trouble and colliding with Stroll. Wehrlein might be fast but an experienced partnership with Stroll doesn’t seem likely to ignite the team going forward.
Prof Mario Rossello – Kubica’s surgeon said that Robert has tested Monte Carlo Grand Prix without issues. Elbow rotation is most problematic but Robert learned how to compensate this limitation in cockpit.
Considering that (according to Ted Kravitz) di Resta’s test was described as “flawless” by the team, it’s no surprise that he’s in the mix.
No chance Williams will pull a “Brenden Hartley” (sp?) and find some old dude in another series or retirement? Aren’t there several former Red Bull alumni in FE or sports cars who could jump into the open seat?
Mark Webber it is then! That would be fun.
and he’ll bring porsche PUs! haha
Montoya was knocking around the Williams garage at the last race…
Wehrlein would be the best choice for a couple of reasons – I think he’s got the most potential of all those named, and he may well bring a reduction in engine fees, being supported by Mercedes. But would that be enough to offset the amount of any sponsorship one of the others may bring?
Williams always needs money in these budget straining times. Most likely outcome seems to be taking Wehrlein to reduce the engine bill with some flexibility being shown from Martini to accommodate his tender years. DiResta seems unlikely to sparkle in comparison.
I see the 2017 Williams documentary film popped up on Netflix today. Will give it a watch tonight if Wifey McWife-Face co-operates.
Well the Williams film is well worth a watch, in case anyone else can get it via Netflix. Very illuminating on Frank’s character. Not always entirely complimentary – there’s no sugar coating of the way in which F1 was detrimental to family life, but then I’m sure that’s a story repeated up and down the pit lane.
Ultimately a must-watch movie for any F1 fan I would suggest.
I found it fascinating and truly moving at times. Claire Williams comes across as genuine, sincere, and emotionally very lucid given her buttoned-up family: her mother sought to communicate her feelings to her father by writing a book. Which he has as yet, it seems, still never read.
Overall, remarkably Frank…
Watched it this weekend. Thanks for posting it here. Very interesting look into the Williams family.
You’re welcome. The lasting impression it made on me was that the sacrifice required to succeed in motorsport was one made by the whole family.
Yes, I wondered whether to believe that he hadn’t read it, or whether that was a convenient route to avoiding having to discuss what he thought about it.
I can’t imagine not reading a book my spouse wrote to tell me the things she felt unable to communicate directly.
Thanks for posting, really pleased I watched that documentary, though at the same time, like watching The Iron Lady, a little too close to the bone frankly.
Thinking about it, which driver would FW put in the car?
I would imagine Frank still has his say, so whatever choice they make will be one he’s content with. Which driver he’d put into the car if sponsorship wasn’t such a pressing matter is an interesting question though.
Your imagination shows that you don’t know much about Williams F1. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but those who are really F1 analysts know that FW has no say these days. I’d change the moniker if I were you…
😉 no offence taken.
I know more than the average fan but a lot less than the average Joe Saward. I’m content with that!
Grazie Felipe – closer to being a Champ than most drivers will ever get! Bravo e grazie – even if I’ll not miss you.
Something tells me Kubica is nailed on for this drive. I have to disagree about Wehrlein he has gone off the boil in recent races. Kubica is clearly the best choice.
Do you know the first thing about whether Robert can actually drive race distances with consistent lap times?
The BBC said all the indications or Kubica is getting that drive, so Williams obviously think he can do race distances. Perhaps what will happen is that Pascal might be signed up as test driver for Williams then should it not being working out for RK after the first 4/5 races maybe they can look again. Apparently Kubica’s sponsors retweeted FM’s announcement . This tells me a deal is being lined up for Kubica and Williams . If Toto rated PW that much PW would be in the Force India not Ocon
It’s not that simple.
Reading between the lines, I’ve had the impression that Paddy is pushing for Kubica. Am I close ?
Just look at his Hungaro lap times – was able to keep same pace at 20+ lap stints. And earlier was able to drive WRC beasts on gravel or ice competing with Ogier et consortes… mostly one hand on steering wheel ( BTW look at his one hand Singapore Renault drive with f-duct )
> was able to keep same pace at 20+ lap stints.
Are you sure? Heard rumours of inconsistency, don’t know what’s true.
Correct – it is only rumor. Look at the times. Do not belive in rumors only. 🙂
And the times come from where?
In the WRC, Robert was a bit of a worry if we’re being frank about it. He completed a remarkable comeback, and when he was ‘on it’ he was as good as a Meeke or Sordo but you pretty much knew that he was going to go off at every event – it was just a question of where and how fast. A WRC event only runs the same competitive mileage as a Grand Prix (spread over three days with lots more miles in normal traffic between stages). Although modern Formula 1 cars and track surfaces are relatively easy on drivers, particularly compared to thumping over rocks or skittering round an icy mountain, there could be a worry over his ability to sustain race pace safely.
From what I’ve been told by those in rallying field, Robert’s problem was often that he trying to hard to carry speed into apex’s and then hard brake, as he would in a Formula car.
For all his time in the ERC and WRC, I was never sure he shook off being a racing driver as opposed to being a rally driver.
Joe,
Can Kubica actually drive race distances with consistent lap times?
I asked this question before on a previous post, but you didn’t answer. Fair enough… but I’m sure I speak for every single reader of your blog when I say that I’d love to know both your views and the feeling within the paddock.
If he was capable of doing the job without any doubt about it, Renault would have signed him. They didn’t. Obviously he can do pretty good lap times but can he do them consistently? Does he have money? Perhaps for F1, but he could not find it for rallying. Finally, is it good for Lance Stroll?
Looks like Renault wanted easier money from engine deal – and perhaps Haas will took their 7th place instead of them 🙂 BTW Alonso “luck” could make next year Honda engines most powerfull and reliable engine on the grid….
Frankly speaking, Renault did it only for one reason which is fame because in my opinion Robert is still great driver and he doesn’t forget how to drive, so talking that Wehrlein is the best option is simply stupid
Have you seen Robert’s arm? And thanks for calling me stupid.
Did I call you stupid? I don’t think so… yes I saw Robert’s arm but as he said, it’s not problem. And what’s more Robert driving with one hand is better than Wehrlein with two hands,because despite money he can’t offer nothing more for Williams
It certainly read that way
I read it that way too.
Renault said they didn’t have the time or opportunity to fully test Kubica – and then through the Honda merry-go-round, they had the chance to sign a driver who had been top of their wish list, and who they knew could deliver straight away, and perhaps get them 6th in the Constructors. It seems to me that circumstances have gone against Kubica on this occasion, but I’m not sure it has really answered the question of whether Kubica would be capable of a return, given the time that Renault could not afford him – and which Williams potentially can.
Would he need money? How much did Massa bring? I don’t see many Brazilian sponsors. Kubica is hugely marketable and would be an amazing story for Martini to use… Williams already have one pay driver; they have never taken two. They will want the best available driver.
Would Kubica be good for Stroll? Why wouldn’t he? If he’s capable of a return then he would be an extremely good benchmark for Stroll, and he would surely learn a lot from him.
I’m not meaning to disagree… I’m just not sure the question of whether Kubica can do the job has really been answered. I guess we will all find out when Williams make their announcement…
I agree about Renault / Kubica. Remember that they’d made a serious attempt to sign Sainz at the end of last year, and were put off by the size of severance payment that RBR demanded. They already had him on their list, along with Hulk and Ocon.
But Renault had given Kubica lots of test time in an older but still powerful car. Now that wouldn’t produce representative lap times, but it would give an indication of whether or not he could turn good lap times for a race distance.
I don’t know what the data says, but Renault could have signed him for the rest of the season instead of waiting to see if they could do a deal involving Sainz. But they didn’t,
They could have signed him for 2018, but they didn’t.
So I think this is the question: Can he turn competitive times over a race distance?
Hi Joe, do you think the Strolls have any influence over who gets the other Williams drive?
Also, who is actually calling the shots there, is it Frank, Claire, Paddy Lowe, Lawrence?, the chain of command doesn’t seem all that clear.
(Quiet giggling noises stage left).
Money is money.
So, tail wags dog. That is very sad.
I agree that if Kubica had set the world on fit they would have signed him, but Renault also had a much greater pick of talent to choose from, including Sainz, potentially Alonso if McLaren had stuck with Honda, Ocon (or he was talked about, but not sure if Merc has right to overrule such a deal), etc. So, no need to take a huge chance when there’s young and proven talent to pick up. Williams on the other hand couldn’t pay and/or attract this class of driver.
Comment placement isn’t working out as I thought. Was trying to reply to Joe above RE: “if he was capable…” Sorry.
(repost: accidentally posted this reply to a different comment below)
I agree that if Kubica had set the world on fit they would have signed him, but Renault also had a much greater pick of talent to choose from, including Sainz, potentially Alonso if McLaren had stuck with Honda, Ocon (or he was talked about, but not sure if Merc has right to overrule such a deal), etc. So, no need to take a huge chance when there’s young and proven talent to pick up. Williams on the other hand couldn’t pay and/or attract this class of driver.
James Allen reviewed Kubica’s times in depth on his site. His first couple of long runs were quick and consistent, but then he did one after lunch that started out quicker still, but went to pieces. They went back out late on for some low-fuel runs that while quicker, weren’t really quick enough relative to the long runs.
I think that’s why the enormous buzz building up to Robert’s test died down so abruptly afterwards: the test was inconclusive. He was certainly capable of getting competitive times out of the car, but clear question marks had emerged regarding his fitness.
From Williams’ perspective, the key question is whether that’s something that can be overcome. Hungary is a very physical track and Kubica may simply have not anticipated just how physical it was going to be in the new cars. He also covered 140 laps in the session, which is a lot for a single day (but then he would be required to do three practice sessions, qualify and then cover a race distance at every GP weekend).
I’d love to see him back, but I’m doubtful. I think a lot of fans are letting hearts rule heads on this one, but hearts very, very rarely prevail in F1.
Willams could always bring Massa back from retirement if Kubica can’t hack it. My guess is that Stroll would be faster than Kubica – and fact any current dive with two good ams would probably be a better bet!
You have a definite answer to that?
Would Robert attempt a comeback if he knew he wasn’t capable of delivering? Doesn’t seem like the type. Can you shed some more light here, Joe? Assuming you’ve had a chance to meet post injury Kubica.
I don’t doubt the desire. I’ve not spoken to him, but I’ve seen him at one Grand Prix. His arm is clearly damaged but he has had a great deal of surgery to allow him to turn the wheel. Some argue he is driving with one hand. Felipe Massa says, quite rightly, that sometimes he needs more than two hands to push all the buttons and drive the car. Maybe Robert can do it, but what does it say about F1 if a man driving with one arm can be competitive
Ooo really.. But you know – it is world wide web and nothing disapears?
It says what everyone can see for a while – you don’t need physical power as such to turn the wheel in modern f1 car. Hence very young drivers can actually do that. I can agree though that we won’t know about RK unless someone will give him a try. Also I respect your views but last comment sounds a bit like winning about F1 state. If regulators made driving F1 car easy enough to do it single handed surely I am one to applaud RK for trying and apparently risking a lot of private cash to do so!
It’s true that FM said he needs 2 hands but maybe it just says a lot about him lately? Clearly off the top of his game for a while now?
Perhaps he has figured out a way to do it, because he has been forced to. Not sure how he would have been able to win a WRC2 title one handed. The onboard videos from testing with Renault showed him driving with two hands.
It will be interesting to see what happens. Robert’s comeback would sure be more interesting than watching paydrivers Palmer, Stroll, or Ericsson waste seats in F1. In my opinion, those say more about the state of F1, but that’s entirely a different matter.
John Love used to drive with only one hand on the wheel for most of the lap.
But he had less controls on the steering wheel.
A man with no legs managed to be a good fighter pilot, but we still think of all Spitfire pilots as some of the finest in the world.
Everybody knows he can’t… let me ask you sincere question – is your knowledge based on facts/evidence or it’s just your opinion, Sir?
No I’m just a moron who knows nothing about anything who wastes his life telling people about F1 with no qualifications for doing so…
I don’t think he meant the offence that was perceived, Joe
Wow that is very “substantial answer of a worthy journalist”
Sometimes I despair…
Yeah but you’re the only ms journalist I know who’s got the balls to stand up and duke it out with us opinionated no-nothings…
Sir,
I’m not here to offend the host of this blog, so if for any reason you feel being offended please accept my apology. As Kubica topic has grown here substantially from the time I posted my inquiry I believe you already answered my question.
You see, neither Renault nor Williams provided any shred of data from their Kubica’s tests – hence we see tons of opinions circulating here and there. It’s fine, but I personally prefer relying on pure facts/data, or at least opinions built on (some) facts/data – this is my personal choice. Once well respected f1 journalist brings a theory about Kubica’s lap times inconsistency, I’d like to know whether this theory is supported by facts/evidence, or this is just a pure journalist opinion… fair and square.
I value your opinions, but being an engineer I have a desire to clearly distinguish between facts and opinions. I hope I clarified.
/ I personally prefer relying on pure facts/data, or at least opinions built on (some) facts/data/
Let us assume that while we have no access to actual testing data, Joe might have had an opportunity to speak to someone who had such access, however it could have been unofficial conversation which cannot be purely confirmed.
It’s everyone’s choice whether one waits for pure data that might never be shown, or assesses opinions.
Joe,how well do you know Kubica ??
He wouldn’t jump in to that business again without being sure he can??
And did you see hes lap times of of one of hes long afternoon stints from Hungary??i strongly recommend to have a look guys,it’s mega consistent,and that’s 6 years on without any outings in 2017?cars,just give him more track time in that car to set up right and we will see some good results coming!
I don’t know him that well. He was around way back when before the accident but I didn’t have any great relationship with him. Great driver but one doesn’t get to sit around with these guys in the modern F1 age. Oddly, it’s better today than it used to be, at least with the younger ones. But it isn’t like the 1980s when F1 was smaller and closer-knit
Much as I would love to see him take the challenge on, and do well at it, I can’t go with seeing Kubica as a good choice.
It’s not even his sad physical problems. I would say the same about any driver who has been out of F1 as long as he has. So many times we’ve seen that even year is too long and Kubica has been out for, what, 7 years?
Sorry (again!) to see Massa go. I remember him as being a bit wild in his early days but he became a very competent driver and a “safe pair of hands” who could be relied on to behave sensibly and do his best. If that sounds like rather fain praise don’t forget he was so nearly a World Champion on one occasion, maybe more than one if he hadn’t been reminded that Michael was faster than him!
“Gracefully?”…. Massa retired (again) before he was dropped (again) and will likely stage another tear-drenched farewell in Brazil (again). This after shamelessly slagging his possible replacements. I see little grace in his exit.
Well, you see things differently to those in the paddock, I suppose
He was very graceful last year and his retirement brought a tear to my eye. This year, after his spectacularly ill-judged slagging of his rivals, I think the grace has been rather lacking. But let’s see how he handles the next couple of weeks…
I seem to remember he was re-hired rather than dropped – I would personally be careful about some of the dross that’s often ‘reported’.
Dont recall seing any tv of him offering those view’s. He probably had some words twisted by cheap journalists and the internet did the rest.
Wehrlein and Kvyat are under 25, so it depends how strict Martini want to be with that restriction. Personally, I would say that Di Resta’s time had gone and to have Kubica perform over an entire season could be too much of a gamble. Anyway, hopefully Massa will get better result at his last home GP than he got last year.
Well, talking words like ‘could be too much of a gamble’ reminds me to the gamble when a not even 18 year old driver was signed straight away from a not dominating F3 paddock by an inimportant team. He’s called Max I remember. And nearly 2 decades ago there was a similar ‘gambling’ underway. His name was Kimi I think. And ooooh, the ‘absolutely-non-gambling’ team Williams signed who for the 2000 season ? A ‘hugely’ experienced young driver, what’s his name : Jensen, Janzon, no: Jenson !
Without ‘gambling’ or should I better say ‘risking’, would F1 still exist ??
All the best to Felipe Massa! Good for him for taking charge of his own destiny rather than wait for the possibility that Williams will tell him that he is no longer needed at the end of the year. Now he is free to celebrate his retirement with his compatriots at the Brazilian Grand Prix.
We need the future at Williams. Lance Stroll is doing well and he is no more subsidised by his father than his contemporaries by the various entities that finance them. Paul had his chance but he is he a valid team leader. Much the same of Kubica who blew his future. Wehrlein is on his way out of F1 through no fault of his but could be part of an exciting young team. Sponsor problems would not be solved by older non smokers in one of the seats. There must be better ways of supporting the sponsors.
Is LS the future as a driver ?
My wife will be gutted she thinks Felipe is a “lovely boy”
I think your wife has good sense. His reaction to losing world championship with such dignity will always stay with me. Great guy.
I agree. If I sound scratchy about what look to me like fairly desperate attempts to cling on at Williams, that’s partly because I know he’s capable of better.
Yep..Felipe gained a lot of fans – like me – from the way he handled 2008. I was also very impressed by Hamilton’s behaviour in Hungary this year. Call me an old duffer but, I really like seeing gentlemanly sporting behaviour when the pressure is on.
Fair play to Williams, after dithering around trying to sign has beens, maybes & over 25 no hopers, they are hopefully going to give Susie Wolff her chance ! Saude Felipe, we will miss you !
Interesting sig. Mostly a fan of pre-Schumacher, pre-Brawn Ferrari? Or of the drivers? Or it has to be the combination of all of them?
There was a certain romance, mercurial quality and spectacular futility of Ferrari in the 80s and 90s pre-Schumacher. V12s and scarlet liveries did no harm either. Ferrari needed to change, but that is the era I became closest to being a tifoso.
Im a bit suprised that Filipe Nasr isnt in the frame for the Williams seat. He was driving for Sauber 12months ago, outperforming Ericsson more decisively than Wherlein has managed.
He brings Brazillian sponsorship dollars, recent F1 experience & has actual talent. He was also the Williams test driver in 2014.
/He brings Brazillian sponsorship dollars/
He would have stayed with Sauber if he had these dollars…
Although it’s always possible that Ericsson’s simply improved…
There are lots of possible explanations. Is Wehrlein getting equal treatment, for example.
I personally can’t see a clear choice between these candidates. Only Kubica has ever shown real potential but he could ultimately be unable to handle the physical tasks of a race weekend or season.
I think Williams should split diving duties for 2018 between Kubica and any of the other younger hot shoes. Which ever one shines the most, gets a 2019 contract.
Surely Kubica deserves a chance to see if he has still got it.
Let’s not forget the major rub for Kubica: he has to forefit insurance benefits if he returns to racing. So, anything less than a full contract (e.g., a two race chance) won’t work for him (unless he can’t resist).
No one cares what we say, but I feel like Kubica could probably drum up at least 5-10m worth of Polish sponsors (they seem to love him) and all the media attention his return would bring would be with millions. By not taking on a second pay driver, it’d also make Williams seem a bit less like Sauber and more like…well, Williams. Full disclosure: I loved Kubica when he was in F1. If his tests have been anywhere decent than I think he should be given a quarter/half season contract or even just a winter testing one. There are plenty of sensible drivers who could still bring money to replace him with if he proves well and truly beyond recovery. Again, Kubica’s insurance makes these hedged approaches very unlikely.
PS – Liked Felipe a lot, but boy is he frustrating to watch when he drives for the team you support. Weak passing skills, clumsy blocking and if he had any trouble during a race it was almost as if he would always give up and slip way back.
be worth millions*
Do you know his insurance contract details that well ?! I just wonder….
Would’ve Nico Rosberg taken the stack to get him back to a seat if there would be so many ‘no-no’s’ ?
Obviously I don’t know the fine print. However, I do think Nico would take the project on even with entanglements because he’s new to the management game he’s trying to establish himself in and if he’s part of Kubica succeeding he’ll look great. If Kubica doesn’t succeed no one will be surprised and no one will blame Rosberg for it and few will even remember he signed on to manage him.
As for the insurance money, I believe I remember the situation was that if he returned to active F1 racing he would need to return the payment he received. I believe I heard this reported by Will Buxton. Who knows, maybe I heard it from Joe. I know it wasn’t from some aggregator site though.
I think in Massa case, we just didn;t know who would turn up on the day. Was it the driver or the racer? He was not very consistent over a period of time. In F1 these days you need, no matter what the car is doing is put in a good showing.
If Stroll is the real deal, then looking back, he should have been equal or better than Massa, and he wasn;t also – again not very consistent. I think one more year on Dad’s money and he will go.
I would like to see Kubica in the car, but I don;t think he will be able to deliver over a full race weekend. Kvyat – here is a strange one, on his day he is quick, but blows hot & cold, and into days F1 you just can;t have off days at the office.
Wehrlein, this seat might just wake him up and he puts in the work and starts to deliver, week in, week out. If not then he will also be finished in F1, with or without Mercedes support.
The real problem for Williams as I see it, they just don;t have the complete package. The power unit is very good, but the Williams design – chassis isn’t up to it. If they happen to make a good to great chassis, and with Mer power then good drivers will start to look at Williams again. Right now, they can only really get good second string drivers, which is a shame. I think the top management of Williams needs to look at there back office staff, and clear out the dead wood and start again.
> the Williams design – chassis isn’t up to it.
This is the Paddy Lowe-shaped question, isn’t it. And to be fair, I don’t think he’s really had long enough to make his mark yet. But 2018 is going to be a big test.
Yes, you have read between the lines.
To me, and I’ll admit, being a Williams shareholder. I personally don;t think that Paddy Lowe is the person. He did extremely well with the Williams FW14B car back in 1992, then moved to McLaren, where he did nothing much, and on to Mercedes. If one looks at his car there, this years car, in which his fingerprints are on, it was a bit of a “Diva”. Is he the right person for Williams. NO.
I would have liked to see James Allison there. His car – this year Ferrari is quick, and according to people in the knowledge, easy to set up at each track, as compared to the Mercedes. I, therefore, think we will have a few more years of Mercedes leading the pack. I would also have liked to have seen James Key at Williams. So the question is why can;t they get these key people or find them and retain them. What wrong withing Williams?
It says a lot when young Max, is resigning to stay at Red Bull, and that is because, they, the drivers know within time Adrian Newey will build them a winning car. The current problem is the power unit, and we the public just don;lt know what is happening behind the scenes there, but the car is perfect.
Williams has a great power unit, just a crap design team. They have all the equipment & tools, but just don;t have that leadership, creative talent which they once had. When they get back to building great chassis then the top drivers will start to look at Williams again. Money – budgets is a problem but it’s not the whole problem.
Agree with your analysis. It seems that since Patrick Head has left the organisation, it has been largely rudderless.
I agree with you. Drivers these days have good managers & advisers. They know which teams have the back-office staff and budgets to give them a car – package which will allow them to showcase their talent and maybe win a race or two.
What I don’t really understand is the Williams position and why are they not going after these creative talented designers engineers, that hopefully will allow them to move up the grid, and in theory bring in or attract new sponsors.
If the car – package is good then the top line drivers will come.
I guess the other question and maybe Joe can tell us, why aren’t the top designers – engineers wanting to work at Williams? If Williams could bring in and hold on to the top engineers, then yes after a while sponsors would follow, as they and drivers all want to be associated with a winning combination.
So what really is the problem at Williams?
I’d guess lack of money.
I hope Williams gives Kubica a shot. They will never find someone with as much to prove, and the talent to do it if his body holds up. Williams has little to loose as any of the other drivers will still likely be available if Robert can’t hack it. Try the Pole, you will never have someone with as much drive to succeed..
Farewell Felipe. A fast racer who lost a World Championship when Renault cheated in Singapore. A gentleman who could both win and lose as a man.
Accident brings out a safety car, resulting in a headrest issue that costs Hamilton a win. Verdict: Hamilton robbed.
Renault cheat and bring out a safety car, costing Massa the win. Massa loses championship by a point. Verdict: Fine and dandy.
There was also the little matter of Ferrari’s pit stop IIRC. I know Massa holds Renault responsible for that too, but IMO that’s… a bit of a stretch. And a few other things that stopped Massa taking the championship, like finishing 7th at the next race while Renault took 1st and 4th…
/racer who lost a World Championship when Renault cheated in Singapore/
Was it Renault that released him on a collision course with Sutil and with fuel hose attached?
Difrrences between Wehrlein, Kvyat and Palmer? Same skill, only amount of $$.
I disagree. I think Wherlein has more talent
And Toto dropped such diamond (while being his manager BTW) instead of Bottas …. weird logic
Pascal has talent but he also has some growing up to do. He’s doing it…
Joe what is it that rubs people up the wrong way with Pascal? As viewers we rarely see him so it’s hard to build a picture of him as a person.
He’s shy and it comes across as arrogant, and he’s a little arrogant as well. He knows he’s good, but that is not always a good thing.
Leaving Wehrlein out of it completely, I don’t see how anyone can argue that Kvyat is no more talented than Palmer. I just fail to see how you can possibly stand that up.
Agree with you there TF. Kvyat got the call up after Vettel left for Ferrari, and seemed to be doing a pretty good job with, I believe, two podiums for RB. Unfortunately, RB found themselves in a quandary when Max was proving the talent he was always reckoned to be, as well as there being not much love lost between Max and Sainz at STR apparently. So for expedience, they promoted Max and demoted Kyvat. Unfortunately, it’s up or out at STR, and with Kvyat’s morale at zero, he was on hiding to nowhere. However, as Brendon Hartley may be about to demonstrate, maybe there is hope for RB rejects after all!
Kvyat is mentally not sorted out. That’s the reason why RB dropped him. It’s not all about ‘being quick only’ in racing.
I agree. And I think Palmer’s worked hard and done a good job in terms of keeping his focus and his head up through a pretty tough couple of years. But if I had to hire one or other now, I wouldn’t find it a hard decision.
‘Difrrences between Wehrlein, Kvyat and Palmer? Same skill, ….’
Oh dear…..
In terms of talent, I’d say the order is Kvyat, Wehrlein, Palmer.
In terms of application of that talent, it’s Wehrlein, Palmer, Kvyat.
As things stand.
Not sure I’d totally agree on the rankings (not sure I wouldn’t, either), but either way I really like the thought process here. Kvyat may not be the most naturally talented driver ever, but he’s got enough in that department to justify staying on the grid if only he could get his head together IMO.
Wehrlein is best choice? really? Sauber kicked him out and of course he will join Williams:) If we talk about best driver, for me it’s clear – Kubica. And that’s best choice
Why is it clear? He hasn’t raced for years. How can you possible say such a thing?
It’s not like he has been sitting on a couch and watching Italian TV series either. OK, we can’t be certain 100% how he” cope a full season but having known how down to earth Robert is he would have never considered a comeback having a even slight question mark over his fitness. C’mon, he’s has been preparing for F1 test for more over a year!
Also bearing in mind how good he was before the accident – 2010 was his stand out IMO (not only in driving but even more in terms of working with engineers and his detailed, technical feedback) for me he’s worth taking a risk. Williams could have some backup option if Robert can’t cope at some point of next season.
Sauber didn’t kick him out. They were offered a great deal to take a Ferrari young driver. LeClerc is a safe bet for them.
I guess that whoever gets the seat will only get a one year deal as I would expect Bottas to be back for 2019 when Mercedes land ricciardo or ocon. The more interesting aspect is whether Williams can make a decent car. Their 2014 car was OK but it has been a downlill ride ever sinnce! If they can’t built one it hardly matters who is driving and the appointment of Paddy Lowe will be added to the long list of Willams poor decisions! For what it is worth I would have kept Massa – he is still faster than Stroll who now at least looks competent but I expect Williams will take whoever brings in the most money by whatever means. How are the mighty fallen!
Why the downer on Paddy? He has learnt a huge amount over the past decade. The changes he has been quietly making in the team are taking effect and he is hugely respected at Grove, and not just at the top.
Kubica might be able to string a few laps together on an empty track, but does he have the dexterity in his damaged arm to able to go into wheel to wheel combat at the first corner? That bit would be my fear in him getting a drive, not whether he has outright pace.
you dont race against anyone else in rallying but against the clock so this is a valid question mark.
and can he get out of the car, with halo on it within the FIA stipulated time?
Let’s not forget that Robert has not driven the current generation of cars which are physically harder to drive because of the increased downforce. I’d love to see him back in F1 but it’s a big risk.
Yes he did. This year in Hungary.
Thank you for a great career, Felipe Massa. You always were a class act. Best of luck in your future endeavors.
Not sure why there’s a big fuss about Massa retiring. What he said about his rivals to the 2018 seat was ungracious at best. Always thought him superficially nice, but like Vettel I think there’s a petulant child underneath. Oh, and he’s terrible in the wet, as in the worst I can think of in recent memory.
So a decent seat is available, and at least one piece of deadwood will be removed. That’s Massa, Kvyat, Palmer gone. Only Kimi, Stroll, Grosjean, Magnussen, and Ericsson to go. Harsh I know, and there are lots of reasons to keep them, but the best drivers are not in F1 overall for the moment. Get the young talent in please Liberty, give them their chance, if they don’t shine quickly then onto the next. Will be better for racing long term.
Seeing Grosjean on your list of deadwood to go pained me. Course we all remember the Spa first lap accident, but he did calm down and get his act together after that. I was with him a bit after his second place at Circuit of the Americas a few years ago, and he still had the fire in his eyes an hour after the race. At the time he was an exciting driver and I had hopes he would go on to several wins. Alas….
Grosjean’s got a fat wodge of podiums under his belt, and didn’t look too shabby against Kimi in 2012-2013. But his claim would be more convincing if Kimi hadn’t looked like such a spent force the moment the two of them ceased to be teammates. At the time, it looked like the two of them were driving the wheels off a car that was good but not the best. With hindsight, one wonders a bit if the car might have achieved even more with other pilots. Hard to tell. And Grosjean hasn’t really had a teammate who was really strong and a known quantity since. He’s had the better of Magnussen most of the time, but K-Mag didn’t really cover himself in glory against Palmer for the last past of 2016. And Grosjean is clearly struggling with lack of feel in the Haas braking system, but again there’s a perception that the real greats will always find a way to adapt their driving to different cars.
I think Paul is being harsh on Grosjean, but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk, particularly as Grosjean hasn’t really achieved anything much since the shift to the current generation of hybrid power units.
Interesting thought, the James Allison Lotus designs of 2012-13 were definitely fine machines.
My theory, topical on this thread, is that Kubica would have been the 2012 world champion in that Lotus, had he not had his accident. It was still a remarkable comeback season from Kimi in 2012 to be in with a shot at the title up until Texas, and he was still putting in fine drives through most of 2013, until clearly he got fed up with the salary situation, and Grosjean found his form.
Grosjean has definitley had a horror show of a year this year, the move to Haas always seemed a backwards step for me, despite a couple of excellent points finishes in early 2016. His career is in a rut really, much like Perez. They can’t go anywhere beyond being midfield also rans.
> My theory, topical on this thread, is that Kubica would have been the 2012 world champion in that Lotus, had he not had his accident.
The more I see of Kimi since he returned to Ferrari, the more I too start to wonder about that. 😦
Grosjean is seriously quick, but his operating window is a bit narrower than you’d want it to be. I was a bit surprised that he stayed on for another year at Haas – I thought he’d be a great fit for Williams. I think he has his eye on filling the gap at Ferrari in between Kimi retiring and Leclerc (or maybe Giovinazzi) being ready to step up. Sergio Perez seems to have the same idea, but Ferrari get better access to Grosjean’s data through their link with Haas. Ferrari are highly risk-averse with that second seat.
I also think there might be more to come from Magnussen. I wasn’t convinced this time last year, but he’s gone pretty well alongside Grosjean and certainly hasn’t been afraid to ruffle feathers. He could go further up the grid, but I’m not sure how far.
Hobby has ridden over 10k km on road bike this year …
Can Kubica manage the 5second escape from the cockpit? Even with the halo? I hope so. Anyway, I guess Rob Smedley wil have an easier time evaluating the candidates now that his friend ‘Phillip’ is retiring.
Apparently yes.
/Can Kubica manage the 5second escape from the cockpit? /
He was officially tested before Hungarian testing, mate.
Massa retiring hijacked by people pushing ther own preferred replacement.
I remember an interview with massa at williams while his son was playing with a ferrari toy in the background.
In response to a question about it he said yeah but its Alonso.
A pleasant and honest bloke that got to drive and win in F1.
I doubt any of the names mentioned will have as much success as Massa
did in F1.
I’m torn. My preferred solution would be to see Kubica and Di Resta sharing the seat, three races for one, then three for the other, and either rinse and repeat, or give the rest of the season to whichever driver performed the best.
As time went on, and Werhlein’s position became tenuous at Sauber, I started hoping that he could have the seat, but that did not displace the first two.
More time going by, and Kvyat finally free of that terrible team that rewarded their first podium of 2016, with a demotion. It’s a complete mind **** to do that to someone when they are being successful, and partially caused by the toxicity that Max and Jos caused in the junior team, as well as Vettel complaining to his old bosses.
Yes, Max is parsecs better than the Russian, but I am keen to see Daniil in an F1 team that can encourage him.
So, I am torn between four drivers, but with Kubica and Di Resta edging it.
Presumably they are waiting to put drivers in the car at the end of season test to make a decision then?
how about including Giovinazzi as well? although highly unlikely, if he doesnt get a sauber drive then he will be available as well
Hello Joe,
do the teams simulators give them much information re drivers pace and fitness?
i hope i’m wrong but somehow i think Williams will make the least exiting choice(again) – DiResta
Williams replacement for Massa? Simple, the guy who can bring the most funding with him.
If they are considering Kubica, it’s because he has found money. Willy delimma shows if there are 3-4 drivers with equal funding.
Cynical? Yes, but it’s what Williams have become.
You aren’t being fair. There’s all the difference in the world between a team with -two- pay drivers, and a team with one pay driver, one fast driver, and more money to spend on the car because of the cash that the pay driver brings.
Williams are the second sort. And so were Brabham in the early ’80s, when Piquet was winning the WDC and Parmalat were happy to see an Italian in the other car.
I speak from the perspective of a too long disappointed fan, especially after their recent 3rd place showings.
We’ll have to wait and see who they sign and how much they bring.
They were third in good part because other teams underperformed when the new regs came in. It wasn’t likely that they’d sustain that. (And still, they’ve underperformed in that they don’t seem to be able to get on terms with FI…)
It seems this is the case. Farewell to Massa. Enjoyed seeing him during ROC in London.
Re the debate on the degree of Kubica’s disability.
Does anyone else remember Archie Scott Brown?
His disability, he did not have a right hand at all, did not appear to slow him down too much.
Joe
Do you think that one of the reasons RENAULT ,did not take the option , to sign Kubica , was that the deal to take Sainz , made more sense considering the incredibly complex negotions between RBR to get out of their remaining engine deal with RENAULT and STR ?
This is what I think might be the answer , and not anything to do with Robert Kubica ability to race
No I don’t.
Joe
Why would Williams go thru the effort of multi testing Kubica , if they felt RENAULT , didn ‘ t exercise their option to sign him , because they were not confident in abilities ?
Otto Mathé as well. But at those times there were only 2 things to handle with your hands. Steering wheel and gear lever.
and Scott Brown did a splendid job but there is a difference. Scott Brown’s argument for a racing licence was that he had an adequate purchase on the wheel with the palm he had and his right arm was just as strong as his left. In Kubica’s case the issue is about both grip and strength/stamina in the injured arm. I wish him well but the two are not the same.
David Good was a worthy British Hillclimb Champion with only half of his right arm and I recall his spirited driving in his McLaren M10 F5000 car so there is hope for Kubica.
I used to race powerboats and the steering technique for that is similar – rather than grip the wheel, you steer by pressing down hard with the heel of your palm. The primary benefit is not breaking fingers when you get kickback through the wheel, but also because you’re not restricted by the range of motion in your wrists you can whip the wheel from lock to lock very quickly. In boats, it’s often necessary to make huge and sudden steering corrections. I’d imagine the same technique would be useful when steering through a tight, fast hillclimb.
I think Massa is probably capable of doing another year at his current level of (adequate) performance. The issue is that Williams should really be aiming higher than that and no one really knows what Lance Stroll’s ultimate level of performance is going to be.
There is chatter about Kubica coming in for Abu Dhabi, but I’m not sure there’s a lot of truth behind it. It makes sense insofar as Felipe Massa could probably be convinced to bow out at Interlagos and little short of a Toro Rosso 1-2 is going to dislodge Williams from 5th in the WCC. It would give definitive answers about the reality of Kubica’s situation, but thinking cynically, the Kubica camp may rather those answers came to light after he had a one-year contract in his pocket.
Personally, I think the stars are starting to align for Pascal Wehrlein. Especially if Mercedes still have some interest in seeing him advance.
Hi Joe, Any chance of another driver (previously not mentioned) will end up with the drive? I would love to see Frijns get a shot – but I doubt he gets any consideration. From the names mentioned I agree Werhlein would be the better choice as he knows the recent cars, is liked by Merc and is seen as a talented.
I doubt it
no. unless Massa unretires again
Having just spent an hour reading these posts, it does show the huge effort that Joe makes in reading them and why some of his comments may seem a little terse.
A Kubica comeback would make a great story for F1 – a Bob Champion / Lance Armstrong fairy tail (hopefully not drug assisted). But if Lawrence is calling the shots, would he want to risk Lance being beaten by Robert?
But I can see that, perhaps, he could have test driver role so that he is available for private comparison.
If Kubica is capable of returning at something approaching his old best, it would be the perfect scenario for the Strolls.
If Daddy Stroll is sensible, he will want the best possible team-mate for his son. The risk of being beaten by a lesser driver is far greater than one who is/was so highly-rated – plus there is the opportunity of actually beating him. And Lance would be pushed more, he can learn more – and aim higher.
Consider the opposite scenario: Williams sign Ericsson and Lance ends the season about equal with him…
This has to be down to Kvyat vs Wehrlein and who can pull together the best sponsorship / engine discount package for the forthcoming year.
I would like to think Williams got a multi year discount on their engines for Bottas last year at the very least but money is money.
Personally I would like to see Kvyat gain some Russian Vodka sponsorship, Crespo Olives must be a shoe in after that!
The team already have their fast and inexperienced driver in Lance Stroll, has Wherlein got the development skills and experience to compliment Stroll and lead the team? I think Kvyat has a slight edge in that department.
Couple of things to consider.
How much quicker was Wehrlein than Ericsson on his return in Bahrain practice & qual?!
About a second…..
That is a sign of a bloody quick and determined driver.
Speaking of Bahrain, Di Resta had one of hos best races there. With a 4th place keeping Alonso at bay for a fair while in the later stages.
Couple of weeks ago Joe said Kubica’s come back will never happen…
I have always been a fan of Massa and regard him as a gentleman. Great racer at his peak, but perhaps it is time for him to move on, although Williams don’t seem to be spoilt with top options to replace him…unless Kubica can come back at anywhere near his best. That would be brilliant, but we just don’t know do we….
As someone else mentioned why not Grosjean? Kev has shown to be a good signing for Haas and it would free them up to take another Ferrari young driver. Grosjean is a decent peddler apart from the whingeing and a Williams is a better prospect than the Haas.
/why not Grosjean?/
A contract with Haas for 2018 might be an answer. Not confirmed officially yet, but hardly doubtful.
It is confirmed
Williams have posted a happy birthday message on Twitter for Jonathan Palmer. Is it possible that Jolyon has got the drive !?!
No
Questions for you Joe?
You’re known for your straight talking, and that’s what’s brought me here vs the more vanilla sites which repeat PR releases these days. But, when you have written something critical about a team, driver, or person how do they react afterwards? I expect there’ll be the full spectrum of reactions from OK through to never speak to you again? But you have to continue reporting each race…..
You’ve been reporting F1 for a helluva long time, and know some of the guys really well. How do you split the friendships with objective reporting?
I don’t care what they think. They can challenge me if they like. Generally they don’t.
bold statement! My hat off. so it seems that they either tell You everything or nothing in general. i wonder where/what is that Magic Ingredient that differs JOURNALISTS from journalists. , i mean how hell You mange people to possibly tell you more than they perhaps wanted to?
That’s why it’s best to never trust a reporter who seems to relish mixing with the celebrity class. They’re likely compromising their stories for access to the perks of celebrity hanger-ons.
Ironically, I’m sure most celebs and the powerful respect the journalist who doesn’t care who they are and in the long run trust them more (in a way) and when there’s actually something important to be said will turn to that type.
advice to Williams – get Rosenqvist asap as a driver and Eddie Irvine for Martini. win – win – win
and if seriously – see what Red Bull did? They copied what they have in RBR to STR – pairing young enough but experienced tittle capable honey badger with novice, thirsty and tittle capable young tiger. And yes marketing – in HAR they now have NZ as well, whereas Russia is covered by KAMAZ Paris-Dakar so they don’t need Kvyat actually in that sense. brutal? no. – logical and ingenious yes!!!