Yesterday I drove home from Silverstone, stopping off to have lunch with my father in London, which was a nice thing to do. If there was a twinge of guilt about not writing anything on the blog I must have missed it, I felt like a day off and having worked much of Sunday night and Monday morning I felt I deserved it as well. The British GP is an enjoyable event because one sees some many old friends, but the problem with that is that one spends too long chatting and not enough time working… I felt Ferrari thoroughly deserved the win at Silverstone – and good for them. I think that most important point about what happened at Red Bull went sailing way over the heads of the pressmen who were so busy trying to discover whether there were team orders and who had what to say about that.
Team orders are allowed if they do not bring the sport into disrepute. But that is not the point. The key point is that the relationship between Mark Webber and the team is such that they are talking openly about it all. Mark is saying: “I wanted to win the race and ignored what they told me”. He is out of contract at the end of the year and when a driver is going to stay with a team he has something to lose by speaking out. Mark obviously does not care, just as the team obviously does not care that telling him to back off will be upsetting. This all translates to mean that the Mark Webber-Red Bull relationship looks like it is coming to an end an the fact that Red Bull has shoved Daniel Ricciardo into HRT to get urgent racing experience in F1 can only mean one thing: Webber will not be staying at Red Bull Racing. His open confession that he had team orders and was ignoring them will not go down well, particularly with the uncompromising Dr Helmut Marko, who has long appeared to be pro-Vettel, notably last year in Turkey where he supported Vettel after an incident that was clearly the fault of the German. Later at Silverstone Vettel was given Webber’s front wing in qualifying after he damaged his own. Vettel duly took pole position but messed up in the race and so the Australian swept to victory, famously remarking that his achievement was “not bad for a number two driver”.
This year Vettel has been the dominant of the two drivers but the question of a team favouring one driver over another has led some to wonder if the two are getting the same machinery, or whether Webber is once again playing with the deck stacked against him.
joeblogsf1 
I think that was the first impression of many people who were listening, Joe. He’s a bluff fellow, a straight-talker who knows how things will be taken. As he comes to the twilight of his career his trajectory is ever-more divergent from his team. It makes sense for Red Bull to be looking at a younger man who could provide Vettel with simultaneously a good teammate, but also a challenge, and for Webber, he may be looking at retirement. He’s given it a good go, but it’s never quite worked for him as he’s either been in inferior machinery or had a better teammate. Were he to stay in F1, I can’t see what team he’d go for.
McLaren and Ferrari wouldn’t take him; Mercedes are too Teutonic; Sauber’s line-up looks all right, as does Force India’s; Williams have already had him; and the other teams aren’t good enough for him.
So is it thank you and good night from Mark?
As a Webber fan I sort of end up feeling bad for Vettel! He’s clearly a great racing driver and a nice kid but the team puts him in an awkward position with his team mate. Dr Marko is a joke, he stands in Vettel’s pit the whole race, chats with him on the grid and completely ignores Webber. When Vettel wins he stands on the podium, when Webber wins Horner stands on the podium.
Which is all fine but don’t pretend to be a motorsport consultant, just admit you’re Vettel’s coach!
Nick Spriggs,
You have completely lost me on the logic in this post… assuming there is some.
I think Mark did back off towards the end but he has his pride – maybe the “I ignored the instructions” bit was to preserve a bit of that. RB are miles ahead in the constructors, I know that Alonso did question whether the new rookie Hamilton would be able to contribute enough constructors points, but maybe the question is real and relevant with Ricciardo.
Still Webber is de facto number 2 driver. That was made clear by the RB statement last year that the car will be developed around Vettel – I’m not an expert but I read that even small accommodations for one driver can cost the other driver tenths of seconds per lap. It would explain why Vettel is out-performing Webber so much this year. I hope there will be challenges from either Ferrari or McLaren, it would be interesting to gauge the talent of Vettel – all we really know is that he is about as good as Webber, maybe a little bit better. I thought it was very interesting how powerless he was at trying to get past Hamilton despite the car, KERS ande DRS
Webber is there to ensure they pick up the constructors. However, RBR have a big problem if Farrari can compete as Vettel can’t race. Very smooth out front, but if he has to fight with Alonso, Massa & Webber there will be a few DNFs. There is no doubt that RBR have held Webber back in the early races as not to recreate 2010.
So Joe, your post is very interesting (as always), but you haven’t given us your thoughts on where Webber will be next year. On his sofa or at team X
I don’t think it makes any sense for RBR to deliberately give Mark an overall inferior car – they would, after all, like to see him get plenty of second places for the constructors title. But it would be relatively easy to ensure that he never quite gets 100% on race weekends.
I always wonder if Vettel really feels like he needs all this fawning protection. I’m sure any driver would generally prefer no.1 status in a team, but the lengths RBR just went to to save him a few points detracts from his image as much as theirs. If Vettel wants to cement his reputation as one of the greats, he should be as offended by the kid gloves Helmut and co treat him with at Mark’s apparent expense.
Or perhaps I’m just naive and Vettel doesn’t give a damn about his perception as long as he gets the most points. Then I guess he really would be the new Schumacher.
Joe,
You say this even after it was announced during the weekend that Mark had signed for another year?
–Chris
Chris
Announced by whom?
I think one only has to think back to Webber’s reliability issues this year with KERS to show that he is seen as the test driver this year.
I know Webber is a Renault driver but oh how I’d like to see him in the McLaren next year… He’s not ready to retire and if anything the fire is burning brighter than ever! He’s got nothing to lose; he knows it and he’s driving like it and that’s why everyone wants him to succeed.
Except for RBR, of course. I also like how they’ve clamped-down on their official sites on any mention of the Silverstone order and blamed it all on rowdy Aussies…
hi Joe,
Just posting to tell you that i loved the new color coded headers in GP+ makes finding a section much easier now for back tracking. Keep up the great work!
Well what you say goes against Horners comment that he wants to re-sign Webber………
Perhaps what he meant was he wants Weeber to resign!
Oh well, a bit of tyre kicking at Brooklands tonight, someone might have some tit-bits.
RobbieMeister,
Do we believe everything that every team boss tell us?
Webber might have *said* he ignored the order not to overtake Vettel, but I think he obeyed. It’s some pride-saving bluster from Webber (a bunch of cobblers, mate). If Webber was genuinely trying to overtake Vettel, their last few corners would have looked like Massa and Hamilton’s!
Enjoyable race on a PROPER track.
What potential fun for the rest of the season (if he is allowed to race on a more or less equal footing) were Mark to announce very shortly that he had signed with Ferrari for next year
I´ll take the following quote out of context to sum up what I see hapenning: “…Webber is once again playing with the deck stacked against him.”
The question is (are), will anyone take Webber? -What openings are there? #2 at Ferrari is all I see (as you wrote recently), nothing else apparently.
But where can Webber go? Possibly 2nd banana to Hammie at McLaren, possibly 2nd banana to Fred at The Reds, or #1 at a mid-grid team. Would racing for 9th as #1 driver at Sauber or Team Willie be a better situation than driving the best car on the grid whilst being ordered around like a busboy by Marko and Horner?
JBUSA,
Where he goes is not the issue, is it? The only way in his case is up… otherwise I think he will stop. And if you go up from Red Bull Racing, there is only one choice.
Australian TV ran an interview with Webber before the race discussing his plans for next year. Whilst he made all the right noises talking about how he got on well with the team and that if he decided not to retire it should be a straightforward conversation when they came to do a deal, he tripped over his words a little bit and retracted slightly saying they were already in the process of talking and it should be settled in a couple weeks… or maybe a month… or two at the most.
I can’t see him driving for Red Bull next year. I think he’s weighing up retirement vs a move to Ferrari and it could be a case of how much are Red Bull willing to do / pay for him -not- to go to Ferrari with all that knowledge of the Red Bull car he has which I’m sure Ferrari would like to have.
As an Aussie it’d be great to see Riccardo at Red Bull and Webber at Ferrari next year. Has there been any word on Felipe Massa’s status for next year? there was a big song and dance about Alonso signing on for 5 years but I don’t recall seeing anything about Massa yet.
Good one Joe glad you had a little break. The forum is busy with RBR trying to cover up they dont favour perticular driver we all know the management favour Vettel but the majority of F1 fans dont like Vettel due to this favoritism than again we also hate his arrogant finger. We will never know if Webber is getting same equipment but mostlikely not. I admired Webber if he is being squash by management after all he was there before Vettel but there is no loyalty in RBR. RBR is very silly to help Vettel cause know we never know if he was really special like Hamilton. We will never know what really happen inside RBR except themself.
Great thoughts.Also, I would like to add some questions: where is the high moral standard that Red Bull preached for half of last year? Was it something like, “we rather loose than give team orders”? They will never behave like Ferrari, the horror!!!
And, where is the media on this? When is Ferrari, everybody goes ballistic and bashes the team for weeks on but now, is like nothing happened.
This tell me 2 things, Ferrari sells more than Red Bull and the (new)media is full of pseudo-journalists that don’t care about the sport.
Its good to have you Joe. A beacon of knowledge in a sea of #@$%
It’s understandable that RB didn’t want Webber and Vettel to crash, but it would have made more sense to tell Vettel to let Webber through to try and catch Alonso. A missed opportunity to shut up their critics.
Nicely said, Joe. One man’s theory? the breaking point was: “Not bad for a number two driver.”
Speed TV had some interesting audio from last year’s race which I had not heard before, in which Webber made the above remark and his engineer radioed back (this was the part I hadn’t heard): “You just won the British Grand Prix. Well done, mate. Now maybe you can put a smile on your face?” And the sarcasm was dripping. I like Vettel enough, but it would have been fun to see Webber come out of that season on top.
For me the highlight of the race was Massa and Hamilton scraping paint like NASCAR drivers, parts flying off the car, coming through those last turns. Who says F1 is for sissies?
Couldn’t agree more Joe.
Joe, I’m not sure if you see any of the BBC coverage at the race weekend but if you don’t i think it is watching the interview with Horner that was conducted immediately post race.
I got the distinct impression that Horner had NOT made that call to Webber off his own back, he kept going to pains to emphasize that it was a TEAM decision, made by the TEAM and even went as far as saying the TEAM made this decision, NOT ME. The BBC also reported having spoken to Horner during the race and at that point (Webber was already all over Vettel) Horner told the BBC that there were no orders going out to the drivers. 30 odd seconds later the order was given for Mark to hold station. To my eyes, it leads to one man making that call…. Marko
Hi Joe,
I happen to agree with you but in fairness to Mark and the team, he was just as candid last season and still rolled up in Melbourne driving a Red Bull, so perhaps his open criticism doesn’t constitute a P45 by itself.
I think the really compelling argument for Mark leaving is Ricciardo to HRT. As you’ve detailed in one of your previous blog entries, there is very little reason to do that unless RBR see him in one of their flagship motors in 2011.
Hi Joe, Speedtv.com have a report saying Raikkonen is off to Red Bull next yr? Do you think there is actually any chance of that? I’d imagine Raikkonen’s people are putting that story about to keep his salary up in the big league if he makes the full time move to NASCAR? I hope Webber stays in F1, though. He comes across as a top bloke and adds something to the grid.
Mike Lea,
Who writes for SpeedTV.com? Do they ever go to any races? Do they have any idea?
But then what treatment would Ricciardo have to deal with, he’s only 2 years younger than Vettel, and he’s also Australian. Their careers are going to virtually last within the same era (if Dan is made of the real stuff).
What exactly then is the difference to Webber, who probably is the last Red Bull team member who actually reflects the brand they are supposedly promoting…
Ward Ling
Riccardo is young and impressionable.
No one seems to understand the huge importance of Ricciardo now driving for Hispania. I think you nailed it right on the money, Joe!
Great comment Joe. As a Webber fan I am keenly watching this. I have thought for some weeks that Mark is being very cavalier with the way he is talking about the contract renewal. He is not acting his usual self, almost arrogant, and it appears that his ‘bundle’ has well and truly left. I have a feeling that he has something up his sleeve that he will reveal shortly. It all reminds me of his final years at Williams in the lead up to the announcement about joining RBR. I think there is a lot more to come in this story.
Hi Joe , any substance to the news that Kimi Raikonen is going to be at Red Bull next year ?
Hi Joe,
I’m curious to know if you personally think the team order brought the sport into disrepute?
Everyone I have spoken to, and all the comments left on blogs like yours and others are saying it was a cheap thing to do.
I understand the team coming before any driver but I think this issue lies with the bottom line of the sport – and all sports for that matter. The fans and the public who watch it.
We all want to see the best racing drivers in the world fight it out together. Sponsors pay teams vast sums of money because the viewing figures are fantastic on a global scale.
Apart from benefiting Vettel, what were the possible benefits to the order that Webber received? I personally think we were robbed of a fantastic battle and even though Webber so called ignored the orders, hearing that message 5 or 6 times is going to play with your mindset.
Cheers
Johnny
Johnny Mol,
I don’t like team orders, but these did not bring the sport into disrepute. Telling a driver not to try to overtake is not the same as telling him to give up a place.
Hi Joe, what are the rules exactly with regards to a team having to run equal cars for both their drivers. Could Mark Webber report any suspicions to the FIA shuld he feel he was given a lesser car…..what reprecussions would there be legally?
PS. After several years I finally subscribed to you GP magazine….great read, should have done it earlier!!!
Owen J
Joe, at the risk of being boring, you have hit the nail on the head again. I have no problem with team orders in a team sport – it was ever thus. But for RBR to publicly maintain that they “allow our drivers to race” is just crass, commercially driven hypocrasly.
I have long thought that there are two Team Principals at RBR and it appears to me that, at the end of the day, Dr Marko has the final say.
Having said that, I think Daniel Ricciardo is one of the most exciting propects I have seen in years and think he will bloom in RBR, certainly more so than the Torro Rosso drivers.
As for Mark Webber, from what I can judge as an outsider, a great guy, great driver, the personification of “Aussie Grit”, I hope he finds a berth in a competitive team but I can’t see where. At Ferrari he really would be No.2 driver, Maybe Renault, if they are still around, will be a happy home. Failing that maybe its back to the back and take over from Jarno at Lotus/Caterham. But all the time we have to remember that his manager is FB so who knows….?
Well said Joe! As a foot stomping fan of MW I sure hope that he can get with a competitive team next year that will treat him fairly. It’s obvious to all with that the vettel has been getting treated with favoritism for the last two years. MW should have been champ last year ex. for Japan and in 2009 when he had all those reliability issues.
Good luck to Webber in finding a better situation than he currently has. His choices are being #2 in a McLaren or Ferrari (the only other competitive cars) or maybe #1 or co-#1 status in a non-competitive team. Nice guy, his own man, admirable sporting character, doesn’t know when to keep his mouth shut. Sayonara.
Completely agree Joe. Do you stil think he goes to Ferrari? What about Massa, to Renault?
How do you explain Webber’s miserable starts this season? Clean or dirty side, Pole or not, front side or not, short distance to the first corner or not, it’s always a problem for him. Does the settings suits Vettel better, or is it only Webber’s cracking under pressure?
Apropos of nothing in your post, here’s a conspiracy theory for you:
Bernie got his mate Max to dig the dirt to finally blow the lid off NOTW and Murdoch and co, so as to chop off the takeover attempt on FOM et al.
Hey, it’s Bernie, anything is possible 🙂
Toastiejoe,
Except they are working together…
Exactly my thoughts Joe. I saw an interview with Mark before the Valencia round and he was asked about his future. The facial expression, body language and curt reply said to me two things:
1. His future is a done deal, and
2. I’d like to play poker with him 🙂
I think that if Webber stays at red bull he will cause a lot of people (including fans) to question what he is gaining from it. A lot of people see him as a down to earth, honest and caring man. So it beggars belief that he may stay as it appears he is not getting full support so why would you stay?
Webber should move to Renault if they are serious about winning again. Red Bull is just managed for Vettel. Adrian Newey should move too. I suspect Red Bull has done the dirty on Webber this year. Team orders always bring the sport “into disrepute” because it stops actual racing. Punters go to watch racing. It’s boring to watch cars follow each other. The fight between Massa and Hamilton was fantastic. The fights between Prost and Senna were the golden years of the sport. The eras of Schumacher and now Vettel is not good for the sport.
Cobbs,
Right now, renault is the last place anyone wants to be
Joe wrote: “has led some to wonder if the two are getting the same machinery, or whether Webber is once again playing with the deck stacked against him”
I have wondered the same thing. I’d be fascinated to see an analysis of the software controlling engine/clutch/etc. of the two RBR cars at the start of races. I find the ease with which Sebastian has been able to pass Webber at starts (especially when Webber has been on pole) to be surprising. It would be very easy to ‘program’ Webber’s car in such a way as to limit power off the line for just a second or two — just long enough to (say) allow a favoured competitor to get past.
But I’m sure such a thing would never happen in F1…….
Joe
As usual you hit the nail on the head!
There is no way that Vettel was suddenly 2 or 3 tenths quicker than Mark over the winter so you have to look at the machinery that he has been given. Just compare startline performance … MW has lost at least a row at every GP this year. His race times have also been competitive so you can’t say that he is struggling on the new rubber either. He still comes up smiling though.
With Ferrari on the ascendancy lets hope that Mark finishes his career soundly beating Vettel in one of the red cars. One suspects he would get on well with Alonso.
Jeremy
Joe,
GIven that these days starts seem to be pre-programmed with clutch settings etc, I’m suspicious of the run of poor starts Mark has had. Am I right in thinking there’s a lot less driver input affecting a start these days?
I agree, it looks like Webber is on his way at the seasons end. Since he doesn’t want to be a #2, his only sensible option is Renault. What do you think he might go?
So will Mark take a test-driver job, and if so, who’ll be willing to pay more for the RedBull secrets he will bring (I never considered this aspect of driver movement until you, Joe, mentioned it a few days ago): McLaren or Ferrari?
Horner’s weaseling is quite disgusting, to be honest, one interpretation was Äthey were allowed to race, until they got close to each other”, and “I don’t think my drivers are capable of racing without crashing into each other.”. Man, I wish Mark actually overtook Vettel though…
Poor management on a personal level seems to be the norm in Formula 1. Ron Dennis was often unable to manage relations with both his drives, di Montezemelo has completely divested himself of Massa, and now it’s increasingly clear that Marko and Horner have not being handling Webber properly. It’s stupid; the teams pay these drivers huge sums of money, managing their schedules and sometimes their diets, without paying attention to their mental state. It’s important in any line of work. It’s even more important in sports, where the participants have been so isolated from “real life” that they may not be 100% socially well adjusted.
It would be a good investment to try a little harder.
I wouldn’t rule out Webber staying at Red Bull. There were similar rumblings last year at this time and the contract was still renewed. If anything it was a lot more spiteful last year after the Turkey incident and then the front wing swap.
As for the team orders, I’m still trying to work out why people are so upset over this. Firstly, it’s not against the regulations any more (which many appear to have not known or forgotten) and secondly, it’s the old hold position order which teams were allowed to get away with even with the ban on team orders.
Alright, I suspect I do know why people were upset – it was Red Bull. The whole Turkey blame game, equal treatment of drivers (though many suspect Helmut Marko has been reading Animal Farm), etc.
I don’t think it helped that the radio transmission was broadcast at least a lap after it was given (and wasn’t the first on the subject) which made it appear that Red Bull were trying to stop Webber overtaking after he was all over Vettel trying to get past.
On top of all this, it is suspicious that Webber’s KERS system seems to be failing consistently compared to Vettel. Even though Webber and Vettel responded to the start in Silverstone at the same time, Vettel managed to accelerate past Webber like he was tied to a post (again). Unless Webber’s a total screw-up, which I don’t believe for an instant, I think the team is messing with Webber’s launch software. I know this sounds like a conspiracy mind-set but from the evidence of known favoritism of the team towards Vettel, I don’t doubt it for a microsecond.
From the outside looking in, the whole situation at Red Bull just isn’t quite right. I feel for Mark Webber. Even if he isn’t at Red Bull next year, I do hope he lands a quality ride. It would be a shame not to have him on the grid next year.
Joe – your post raises some questions for me.
1. so where will Webber go?
2. why is this no different to last year?
3. if RB use Ricciardo, then what is the future for TR? They can just buy seats across the paddock when needed.
hello Joe, well it is a hot topic isn’t it – I guess we could talk about it for days and get nothing out of it but still…
“Team orders are allowed if they do not bring the sport into disrepute” – given that Mateschitz publicly claimed last year the split wit the Ferrari way of “doing things” I reckon this could be a case of bringing the sport into disrepute (remember his words??)
but what exactly is disrepute in the sport? and, for that matter, what exactly is “the good of the team”? I for one would have thought that – given the current standings – “the greater good” for the team would have been let Mark&Seb battle it out, as such reinforcing the boss claims, make (nearly) everybody happy etc. I assume he meant it of course
and what if this “team good” thing frontally clashes with, say, “fans good”?
you have some days to talk about it?
🙂
Hi Joe, I hate all this conspiracy stuff with Mark the alleged victim, but I think your analysis about team orders and Mark not obeying has a ring of truth about it. Why did Vettel’s car rocket past him at the start? No Kers again on Mark’s car? And was Vettel’s Kers working? Ports
I said to a friend after the race that Webber was talking like a guy who had a deal to race in 2012, but it wasn’t necessarily with the one he’s driving for now! It’s just not smart to ignore team orders so brazenly and publicly if you want to renew your deal with your team.
He was interviewed for Australian TV before the race and said he was keen to drive in 2012, so your analysis of Ricciardo’s promotion and the fact he doesn’t care about team orders speaks volumes. Which begs the next question – if he’s keen to race on next year, and it won’t be with Red Bull, where will it be? I love the Ferrari idea (it means I can support them again for the first time since Alesi was there!), but what happens to Massa then?
I just love this intrigue!
Absolutely the’Key’ point Joe; and the correct conclusion.
Relationship ‘Over’, this will be the key Driver, that will start the Chess Board repositioning…!
He’s a ‘top six’ guy,not fearful of any of the other ‘bad asses’ in the normal Aussie way, and with Kubica off the table, he’ll end up in Red…!
Perhpas that’s why Christian Horner is confidently saying the incident won’t affect the 2012 contracts – Webber wasn’t going to be part of them anyway!
Ricciardo finished close to 90 seconds behind his teammate; not exactly the stuff of legends.
Hi Joe. I think you are very much on the money regarding MW. Imagine saying to the late Aryton Senna to “mantain the gap”. Yeah right! From all the responses from current and former team principals that no driver is bigger than the team, and that there are other staff involved with the team(which is true)and money involved with the Constructors Championship is a bullshit cover statement ,that you infact do as you are told because Management have a set agenda!(Vettel all the way). If you want team sports join volleyball or football. At the end day they are racing drivers, its called racing to the chequered flag, with or without incident.That is what makes the sport exciting and dangerous.I for one hope the future racing drivers are not breed soft and fed with a spoon and cuddled like little girls. Joe thanks for the great journalism.
Joe, have you been drinking a drop or 3 of Aussie red? Don’t get me wrong, all of Australia is wondering about the stacked deck as well. My question is what are Mark’s options? Wouldn’t a move to Ferrari (should it arise) be as a No2 driver as well? There is no room at the inn at McLaren. Aren’t the remaining cars a major step down with no prospect of fighting for wins or titles.
Can’t help but suspect MW will be wearing red next year. The post race interviews displayed interesting body language b/n Mark and Fernando, I thought…
AUTOSPORT says that Webber’s contract extension for one more year is almost finalised; it is, however, not signed yet.
I personally think that Webber will stay with Red Bull in 2012. I would love to see Ricciardo or Buemi alongside Vettel but I don’t believe that it is going to happen. Ricciardo was struggling a lot in the British GP and the gap to Liuzzi was large, I mean, the youngster still has to prove himself. And Alguersuari and Buemi have not been consistent enough. I believe that Webber is the best number 2 RBR can get at the moment.
I hate team orders and I think that RBR are hypocritical as they criticised Ferrari for issuing team orders and now are doing the same thing themselves. However, I don’t believe in any conspiracies against Webber. I don’t think that he gets worse machinery than Vettel – Webber wouldn’t accept that, just remember his reaction after British GP 2010. The thing is that Vettel is the better driver. RBR know that and I even tend to believe that Webber understands that, too. Webber doesn’t have any chance to fight for the title this season. He had one last year but only because Vettel was hit by a lot of car problems. That is why RBR saw no reason to take any risk of losing Vettel’s points in the final laps of British GP.
In my opinion, Webber’s comments are simply a part of his PR.
A race is a long time in F1.
Both Webber & Horner were looking
like best friends on Saturday & Sunday
morning, but 2 hours later? We’ll see.
Yes, finally the public are seeing that Red Bull are as cynical and corporate as any other F1 team – they are not the groovy, funky let-em-race mould-breakers that they initially appeared. Worse, they have probably directly lied to the race public about equal equipment.
They need to get a young second-stringer in the other car. Someone to toe the line and not ruffle poor little Sebs peacock feathers.
Webber on the other hand needs to retire. Nice chap but only a good journeyman in my opinion. Too big for the modern cars and past whever his best was. He’s on Rubens’ trajectory – heading for minor teams to help ‘improve’ their cars and do a lot of promotional activity.
Immediately post race, Webber and Domenicali looked like best mates…..
Chris,
If you look at the situation from a statistical perspective, there is a clear story in the numbers: Alonso/Massa 252/144 (57 percent), followed by 112/52 (46 percent). If Ferrari is looking at Red Bull the Maranello folk see Vettel/Webber 84/69.5 (82 percent), followed by 256/242 (94 percent), followed by 204/124 (60 percent). It was clear last year that Red Bull was favouring Vettel and so at Ferrari they would be forgiven for concluding that the reason for the poor figure this year is because Webber is being held back, rather than getting slower with age. And perhaps they see an advantage to be gained from replacing 46 percent with at least 60 percent and probably more.
In any case, if Webber’s given the flick by RBR it’ll be for speaking the truth and acting in the best interests of the sport & it’s fans. Red Bull can’t argue against that.
Drivers dream of driving for Ferrari in the same way that footballers dream of playing for Real Madrid or Barcelona. Remember how Fisi jumped ship from Force India just as they were breaking through, to drive a dog of a Ferrari for a
few races, even though he knew it would effectively end his career? OK I know he’s Italian so its a bit different, but the lure of the prancing horse is there for all drivers. Who else could capture a double or triple, reigning world champion (Schumi in 96, Prost in 90) and entice them to come to a team that hadn’t won anything for over a decade?
If MW is given the chance of driving one of those beautiful red machines, even if its only for one season by way of a swansong at the end of his career, and even if it is de facto (or even contractually) as a No.2 driver, he will take it. In addition to the aforementioned kudos of driving for Ferrari, there are a number of reasons why being No.2 there is better than being No.2 at Red Bull:
1. Alonso and Webber are best buddies;
2. Alonso is arguably an “all-time great”, whereas Vettel is not yet in that league;
3. Alonso is closer in age to Webber, whereas Vettel is 10 years younger;
4. Webber is likely to get a signifcant pay rise – Massa is rumoured to be on £11M a year, more than any other driver except Alonso & Hamilton (and probably now Vettel)
It make sense for Ferrari too: Massa is clearly not the driver he was in 2008; Webber brings with him Red Bull development know-how; and buys Ferrari a year which they can assess whether any of the crop of new young drivers (Kobayashi, Petrov, Di Resta?) – or perhaps a returning Kubica – is worthy of a drive.
I don’t think Webber is going anywhere. OK, he is not the favoured one in the team, but he is still getting opportunities to win races and going for the championship if he has the pace to do so. What are his options? There are no vacant seats at McLaren, in Ferrari he would be even more of a number 2 than he is now. Renault and Mercedes may have seats, but probably not a winning car. So I don’t see why he would move.
Ricciardo went to HRT purely because they can’t choose between their current drivers at this moment. I highly doubt that Daniel will go straight from the worst team to the best next year. He will be a Toro Rosso driver in 2012.
Interesting summary Joe…and i definitely agree with you on a lot of those points but what about McLaren? Lewis did pretty impressively this race and both drivers have a special meaning for Silverstone…i mean just look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q_8N_L1mmI
Just makes you want to be there too…
😛
I really cant see Webber staying at RBR – not after his blatant up yours comments. Ferrari will never win the Constructors without a good number 2. Massa has been on the slide for a few years whereas Webber remains a top class driver. And most importantly, Webber knows the secrets of the Red Bull which should be enough reason for Ferrari to employ him for a couple of years.
Actually, no matter what Marko of Horner say about Hamilton, I would have thought that the Red Bull owner would see the unbelivable marketing power of having Hamilton in the team which is the only reason that Red Bull race – to sell more fizzy drink.
The one problem with all of the above (as pointed out by Ferrari) is that Massa has a contract for 2012. I know they paid Kimi for a year not to drive, but that was to ensure that they captured Alonso – I’m not sure they would consider Webber a big enough prize to justify doing that again. A more likely scenario would be for them to loan Massa to another team for the final year of his contract, with said team paying a portion of his salary. I would hazard a guess that Sauber would be the most likely destination (Ferrari engines, tend to vote with Ferrari on FIA/FOTA matters, Massa’s old team)
Jerry,
I don’t know. I am simply presenting logical thoughts. A contract in F1 is the basis of an negotiation.
ITS interesting to note that Alonso has been very chummie to Mark after the races… Also noted that Ron Walker was in the Farrari pit…
I would like to see Mark at the red team… to Partner Alonso this would be an extremely strong team …. if only for one year…. but it would mostly be as the number 2
Why is Ricciardo at HRT not a ploy to put pressure on the guys at Toro? If the plan is for Ricciardo to go toToro next year it makes sense to have him at HRT.
1. It gives him some experience under no pressure
2. It gives the Toro drivers half a season to prove themselves, for the other seat.
3. If he is utter rubbish don’t bother signing him for a whole year at the expense of a better driver.
4. He learns all the HRT speed secrets (joke)
Toro is a stepping stone to RB, it makes no sense to skip them.
What makes more sense is Webber and Vettel at RB next year while Ricciardo and Alger/Buemi are at Toro. The Following year Webber is booted and the best driver from Toro is promoted to RB.
However, this is F1 and sense does not always prevail.
I can’t see Webber being well treated at Ferrari. It is well known for being a 1 and 2 Team – even when it is against the rules. Alonso also doesn’t like competitve team mates, and is prepared to go to long lengths to get the upper hand (blackmail the team boss?).
It is the same as RB, why upset their long term driver for some guy who will only be around 1 or 2 more years, and is probably not any faster.
Horner has basically said that Webber will be there next year, and haven’t Ferrari already confirmed Massa?
Scuderia,
If you are putting Ricciardo in a Toro Rosso next year, you would not both wasting time, energy and money on training him elsewhere. If you are going to drop either Buemi or Alguersuari, you would do it immediately…
As to the rest of it: has no-one in F1 ever said something that did not come true?
Joe, MW was at Mugello the Sunday before last at the Italian Moto GP. Anyone see a connection?
Tony G,
Who knows?
Joe – one more point on this topic which I would be interested to know your view on:
Mark Webber comes across as being a man of integrity – how do you square that with him having Flavio Briatore as his manager?
Jerry,
With some young drivers there is no chance at all of getting an F1 drive unless they sign away a good chunk of their earnings to a well-placed shark. Fernando Alonso did this, indeed anyone who drove a Renault in recent years HAD to do it, for reasons that have never been fully explained. All Webber did was have an ambition and enough practical sense to know that he would not get to F1 any other way.
Joe,if you are considering ferrari’s point of view(the comparison among team-mates),then don’t you think that button is likewise spectacular as webber?
He was almost as close to lewis as webber was to seb last year and this year actually seems far more in control of his driving than hamilton.Of course his position in mclaren is getting stronger race by race unlike webber ,but he too has no contract signed for next year.So,do you think he should be in ferrari’s rader in same position as webber??
I too think Webber is going elsewhere, and personally I feel he could offer a lot to Ferrari. His performance isn’t coming down, it’s just that Vettel seems to do fine with the cold blowing diffuser and manage it better than Webber. Therefore at Britain we saw him outperform his team-mate in qualifying and really hassling him in the race. Webber still is a great driver, though perhaps not world champion material, and would be a great asset to Ferrari particularly in helping the team rack up some contructors’ points. Also Webber could push Alonso more without challenging his team position, which Massa just isn’t doing.
BUt Joe, were u impressed by Ricciardo’s performance? I know it is his first race, but considering his impressive F1 testing record we were expecting a dream debut…
PT,
I did not think that Ricciardo did anything special at all, but I suspect he had a problem. I am not sure that HRT put out any explanation and it was not a priority at the time.
Joe
Absolutely correct statement about percentages, unfortunately Massa hasn’t been able to cut it when it gets tough. Webber has been able still to bring home the points from any position this year.
I feel MW has been harshly treated about he isn’t challenging his team mate but still seems to rack up enough points to give RBR a good lead in the WCC
I think Ferrari may publically be about passion but like most teams they are cold and calculating on many aspects. Massa once performed above expectations and came close to being a WDC. Now he doesn’t. Whether it was the accident, Alonso’s crushing personality or just some other reason – he’s lost his confidence.
Recruiting Webber is making more and more sense for Ferrari. It’s difficult to suggest that Webber’s wins in 2010 were simply RBR dominance, other than injury and the confidence collapse of Korea, Webber was a lot closer to a WDC than Massa has been since his return. Plus, as everyone says, Webber will have a lot of technical knowledge from Red Bull – his knowledge is probably worth paying for, even if his results don’t turn out that way.
Also I think it’s clear Alonso and Webber get on better personally, same manager, closer age…plus most drivers want to end their career at Ferrari don’t they?
An interesting read, thank you.
Webber went up a great deal in my estimation after his open defiance of RBR at Silverstone. He is clearly receiving unequal treatment at RBR and I will be interested to learn whether they will subject him to any sort of gagging clause in the likely event of his departure.
To me the favouritsm Vettel receives makes his wins seem utterly hollow and I hope that history will judge his WDCs as primarily due to having a dominant car (as with Hill/JV in the Williams Renaults).
I find the media (BBC in particular) highly sycophantic towards Vettel. We hear about his ‘genuine’ and ‘fun loving’ personality ad nauseum, but has this ever really been put to the test? Should we expect anything else from driver who has (probably literally) a car in a class of its own and a team which exists to flatter him?
I suspect his persona is somewhat affected and I personally find his juvenile demeanour quite nauseating.
How I miss Raikkonen and Kubica..
Webber going to Ferrari is the move that makes sense for everyone. Webber would clearly be number 2 to Alonso, but at least Ferrari would (in private) be up front about it with him. There are worse jobs in the world than earning major money for driving Ferrari F1 cars, living in Marranello etc. Mark has earned it, I think he is comfortable with his place in the pecking order in F1, (somewhere towards the middle of the top 10) and now thinks that he will still have a chance of winning the odd race, and gets to complete his career at the team that they all want to drive for.
Ferrari of course get a driver who might have a few RB secrets, but will fit in well, not throw tantrums, and be closer to Alonso than Massa ever managed.
Second bite of the cherry – so Ferrari might be on the cards then Joe?
If someone was to come up with detrimental information in respect of the MW launch control – mentioned a few times in these responses – that could give all of us loads to fulminate about for another few months – and what a PR disaster it would be for RBR – just a thought
Joe,
Point taken re: Webber/Briatore at the start of his career. I was thinking more about Webber’s refusal to ditch Flav even when he (FB) was “banned”.
I think if you look back at Vettel’s performances at RBR he’s generally outperformed Mark.
Look at the 2009 season, Vettels first in the full Red Bull team. Mark Webber was expected to lead the team that season as their mature driver, yet Vettel out qualified him 14-3 and if it wasn’t for double diffusers he may well have taken the title that year. Whilst I appreciate Mark broke his leg, giving Vettel an advantage initially I would have expected the better driver to dominate in the later half of the season.
History basically shows Vettel is a faster driver, and there were no such allegations of bias in 2009, afterall why would you favour a young driver who’d never had any real experience in a top car?. So perhaps RBR did want SV to overtake in Turkey, yes, because he was their best bet of a Championship given the relative performance of the two drivers in the same car in the preceeding 18 months. Does that mean they’re giving Vettel a quicker car? Of course not, to see how that works out look at Hamilton vs Kovalinen at McLaren, the difference is significant.
There’s no conspiracy, Mark had the choice on strategy (and undercuts) at Silverstone, he started in pole position, and it was largely due to another RBR Kers failure (Is that the 3rd time for Vettel vs Webbers 4?) that Webber was able to catch Vettel and try to pass him.
Allowing two drivers with history to race with 3 laps to go when they’re in a comfy 2nd & 3rd is beyond stupid, and perhaps Webber has already realised that.
Whilst I’m not sure where Webber will go, I have a suspicion that JB will go to Ferrari, and perhaps open the door at McLaren for Webber to partner up Hamilton.
I like Webber a lot, but his comments seem a bit bizarre, unnecessary and unwise. The fact is that he didn’t pass Vettel – and thus obeyed team order either if it was voluntary or not. He looked to have the speed to pass Vettel, but it’s possible Vettel upped his speed when Webber was closing in. Complaining about this will only stir up the difficulties further and weaken his position in the team.
I guess this means, as Joe has indicated, that Webber is heading to Ferrari and Ricciardo to RedBull.
Joe, it really could be some problem with Ricciardo’s Hispania, beacause his result seemed even worse than what Narain Karthikeyan could achieve.
PT,
I would say that this is so obvious that it went without saying.
*Paul*
With Webber broken leg cant you see that Webber cant even stand up properly after some of the races, I am sure it does affect Webber or any one with those injuries. 2010 is where they start the same playing field until the TURKEY incident we all know what happen. Most of us are aware what happens and see for our self. It is a pity that the management have to favour and cuddle Vettel as he seem the faster one lap driver and dont need RBR help or does he now !! we will never know. Vettel seem to be the young bull and Webber the mature bull RBR should have just let them go at each others and punish Vettel for the turkey incident than the whole world will see it as a good management. It is in our human nature to be competitive and wanted to win but at what cost, but when the whole world see the ugly side that is sad.
Webber will go to Ferrari where Massa is about to be removed for 2012. Massa’s contract was engineered by his manager who is Todt’s son! Possibly Button will go to Ferrari in which case Webber may retire or go to Force India or even back to Williams. Sutil will be sacked. Massa may go there. Hamilton will see out his current contract at McLaren and may then go to Ferrari for a few years. Clear as mud!
I still don’t see how it makes sense.
1. why would Horner be saying for the last couple of weeks that it was very very likely that Webber would resign if it wasn’t true. Now today DM is saying that Webber will definitely resign. If he wasn’t going to they would try to deflect the question – it’s too early to start discussions yet, we have more important issues to deal with at the moment etc.
2. Surely RB can see that Massa is a weak link at the moment and MW is more consistent. If they let him go to Ferrari that would give Ferrari an advantage, and there is no way Ricciardo would be as consistent as MW over his first full season or score as many points.
3. The problem at Toro is that they don’t know who to drop. After Ricciardo’s test last year I am sure the plan was to ditch a Toro driver mid season and put him in (like they have done in the past). At the start of the season all signs pointed to JA, however, since the talk of Ricciardo replacing someone started a couple of months ago he has been scoring points consistently. Points are worth a lot of money, and JA also brings money.
4. If MW left and they did not replace him with a Toro driver then what is the point of Toro and it’s drivers. They might as well get rid of both if they aren’t going to use them, and put in Vergne and someone else. They are known for being a little ruthless if they don’t shine, and neither has in the last two years.
5. Why is HRT not the cheapest solution? if the plan was to drop JA (because Buemi is chummy with Marko) they will lose sponsor money. If JA has been scoring good points and he leaves that will also cost money. HRT are short of cash so getting him a spot may have been quite cheap. Let him make a few mistakes and crash their cars.
My prediction is MW and SV at RB, and JA and DR at Toro.
Also on Ricciardo’s pace, he seemed to be fine on inters then fell off the pace on the softs. Do you think it may have been due to the lack of setup/practise time on the dry tyres?
Ah well it looks like Mark is probably going to stay at RBR !
I’d love to see JB go to Ferrari personally…
This is interesting if factual
http://www.channelnews.com.au/Sales_And_Marketing/Marketing/P7V8D7Q4