In a few minutes from now there will be a press conference at The Grand Hotel in Delhi at which Vijay Mallya and Subrata Roy Sahara will make some kind of announcement. Mallya has denied reports that he has any plans to sell the Force India team, a statement which was treated with great circumspection in F1 circles.
If it turns out that Mallya is now announcing the sale of a minority of the shares or some such arrangement no-one is going to believe anything that he says as he will already have told a whopping great lie, insisting that the team is not for sale.
So why should we believe him if he says he is only selling a bit of it?
Good sources in India continue to suggest that a sale is going ahead and that the deal will roll over a two year period at the end of which Mallya will be out.
Are you interested in buying FI Mr. Joe? Why do you get so emotional? Chill man….!
Goks,
Why should I chill? If you have no moral code and think it is OK to tell stonking great lies in public, then that is that your choice.
I prefer to deal with people who are honest and know right from wrong. I never deal with people who I catch telling me lies. If they do it once, they will do it 1000 times and one cannot rely on anything a liar tells you so they are utterly worthless to any journalist who is trying to get to the true story.
Vijay isn’t the first and won’t be the last guy to be caught telling a big fib in F1. Just look at Red Bull claiming they haven’t overspent the RRA limit
Michael Roberts,
Prove it. If Vijay announces he is selling shares, he is proving himself to be a liar. Slam dunk!
Even if Sahara buys a part of FI, I dont think VM will be letting out his team in the near future.
The prob here is , all see VM’s ownership as an individual and Sahara as an organisation.
so, what’s the news?
Hasn’t VJ said he is not selling HIS stake in Force India. This doesn’t mean other’s aren’t selling their stake in the company.
With the inaugural GP coming up, I would imagine Mallya is using that to boost the value of his team to prospective Indian investors.
You really don’t like him do you Joe? Good for you, don’t hold back!!!
Your reaction to this speaks to why I read your columns, tweets and subscribe to GP+. Yet another case of you posting a well-founded “rumor” Bravo sir! Thanks for your hard, and honest, work.
Quotes from Sunday: “”I was shocked to read a media report that I am selling the Force India Formula 1 team”, “This is completely untrue and without any basis whatsoever”, etc.
We’re all used to cleverly worded press statements that claim to be a denial but actually say nothing at all, this one did not fall into that category.
Less than 100% honesty from a politician? Who’d have expected that!
I’ll wager the list of all the lies you’ve heard as a journo in F1 would be several pages long.
Not justifying it, but it seems to be a regular and expected part of F1.
Loophole I’m guessing….
He is probably selling some of his shares…. a minority stake lets call it. That way he still owns the majority and has control and hence it isn’t sold and he has got rid of some of teh risk.
In an article about Toro Rosso you said that Mateschitz wasn’t plannig to sell but would be happy to have a partner with a minority stake if that other the correct choice.
It’s clear that atleast for Dietrich Mateschitz there is a difference between a full sale and a sale where the control is kept. I think this might be a case of that…
He has made the Indian GP so he will get the extra boost but clearly this isn’t working for him so it’s the oportune moment to bail
I neglected to mention “Liegate” & “Crashgate”.
So you have not spoken to anyone from Renault or McLaren (again)?
Double Rejection!!
Elfredore,
It depends on who you think was lying. Utter rejection of your point.
I don’t have much respect for that man and clearly neither do many of the people that have worked for him and jumped ship in the last few years. He has no respect for contracts or paying suppliers and has never seemed particularity open about his strategies for even being in F1.
One can then assume it’s little more than a pet project for him.
Wow! Joe! Step Back! It’s Formula 1. Hasn’t been a true word spoken in F1 for decades.
Tyrrell didn’t put ball bearings in their cooling bottles. Schumacher didn’t run into anyone on purpose. McLaren didn’t “borrow” plans.
We love this track/ country/city. Our Ferrari cars are completely legal.
We don’t spy on any other team. The fuel cell is completely legal.
We don’t have launch control/traction control. We don’t favor any driver.-
both our drivers have equal # 1 status. Both cars are the same, except for the parts that aren’t. We’ll be back at Turkey next year, for certain.
I didn’t block the track. My car just parked across it by itself. The fuel samples should match, unless they don’t. I didn’t see Massa/Button in my mirrors.
It goes on and on.
Being lied to in F1 is the norm. You just need to let it go over your head, and filter out the truth.
I luv chicken,
If you accept lying then that is up to you. I do not. I root it out and I kick it. When I can prove it, I say it. But sometimes because we cannot always write everything fans get things all mixed up and think that they know what lies are, when in fact they are believing lies. So many fans seem to think that they know all the answers, so I really don’t understand why they both reading blogs that are trying to tell the truth. Maybe they should sometimes stop and ask themselves whether they really do know it all, or whether they might not have got it all right.
Don’t all F1 people (and businessman) deny something is for sale to change the price one way or another (Torro Rosso / F1 itself)
tyre kicker,
No, some say no comment or I cannot say. That is honest.
The news channels in India are reporting it as the Mol family selling 34% of their 50% stake in FI, and Mallya selling 8% of his 50% stake, which makes the new shareholding as Sahara and VM as equal 42% partners and Mol’s as the 16% minority partner.Sahara has spent probably spent close to a Billion dollars sponsoring Indian cricket, so this is not a big deal as such.Awaiting further news after the press conference.
d,
And do we trust this when the man lied yesterday? Liars insult the intelligence of all of us. The media are just the messengers. They disrespect everyone. Why would we trust or respect a man like that?
@Joe… Have you watched ‘A few good men’ a few too many times?
I like the objectivity… no.. I love it.. but it appears that if you were a bull, the only thing needed to get your going before runnig at the conquistador is showing a mangled half truth or lie…
just wondering…
unocAPAetc,
Read my explanation about lying and you might understand. Principles are one thing, but doing the job properly is part of it as well. Liars are worthless in my opinion and if I attack them it is because I think that they will do better if they are more honest. They might make less money but they might win respect.
@Michael Roberts (@MJRoberts55)
And Ferrari with their 100+ engineers they claim are working on their historic car collection and not the race team
Karen,
How controversial of you…
Joe – in your experience, how much does the sale of a team *really* matter? I mean, of course any new owner will of course want to bring in new sponsors and their own people (and if they happen to be a billionaire like Mateschitz will pay for those people to include the likes of Adrian Newey), but if the core personnel and equipment remains the same, is it just a case of the cars being a different colour. Is there a different “feel” amongst the mechanics etc about Force India from when it was Spyker or Jordan? Or about LRGP from when it was Renault ? Or Mercedes from when its was Brawn? etc etc
By Joe’s adverse reaction, I think I see a characteristic which I like – a person with integrity. I get very angry if someone lies to me. Tell me a bad truth I can handle, a lie no matter how good the intention is still unforgivable. If a public figure tells a lie, it reflects even worse than us ordinary mortals.
Good riddance. Not i man whose presence i will miss
Dear Joe,
I note that you did not publish my previous comment, however the question still stands.
Have you spoken to Ron Dennis or any other McLaren employee who denied knowledge of the stolen Ferrari technical data?
Glass houses are known to be fragile Joe.
Elfredore,
Your post shows that you have no idea what happened in 2007.
VJM is a businessman first and foremost, and all he’s doing by denying it is making sure the deal goes through. It’s like politicians at election times, no-one believes it but that’s not the point. Of course he says the team isn’t for sale, he’s hardly likely to say “My airline is in trouble and I need the cash” is he?
What are you more peeved about Joe – the sale of Force India, or VJM telling a fib?
the news is on Reuters.
He’s selling a small stake in the team. Joe, I understand your frustration at feeling world or F1 Journalism is being lied to, but this was a business transaction, early acknowledgement that the deal exists let alone is likely to happen could have scuppered the entire thing. From a legal position FIndia were probably not allowed to do anything else.
Jon Wilde, Better to say nothing than to lie.
With the company being on a stock market isn’t there rules against releasing information (such as a sale of stock) prior to the official announcement, regardless of how obvious the following announcement is?
Rob,
I would not buy shares in any company that lied openly.
Update after televised press conference:
VM – 42.5% Sahara – 42.5% Mol- 15%
The Team Principal remains VM
Sahara to infuse approx $100 million USD
Team renamed Sahara Force India Formula One (remains to be seen I guess what with so many teams trying to rename)
All in all its good news for the team and F1, they should only improve further from here.
So perhaps, truth is the reason why you didn’t publish my earlier comment.
Now I won’t be surprised even if this is not published either.
I’m with you on this, Joe. Why issue such a categorical denial just a few days from the press conference? A pathological need to deceive? Perhaps he’s not used to the truth.
What really happened in 2007 then Joe?
Mallaya sells Minority stake(42.5%) of Force India at estimated 100 Million dollars, team will be renamed as “Sahara Force India”
I should also mention his airline business is struggling and never posted profit so far and he recently closed operations of his low cost airlines “Kingfisher Red” and focus only on premium segment.
Looks like you don’t want to post my previous comment. Anyway, It is SAHARA Force India from now. He has sold 42.5% of his shares to Sahara to enable the team to have more funds for R&D. And Sahara is investing $100mn for that 42.5% share. Good luck with your reporting…..
“Disrespect”? Men of our age shouldn’t use words like this Joe, only Lewis can’t get away with that (just).
You need to chillax, blood. Fo’ shizzle
Serious point … saying “No comment” to a rumour is usually the same as admitting it.
Graeme,
I don’t need to chill out at all. I understand how to do this and if it is not what everyone else thinks,that is fibe. It works for me. If there is trust between two people then one does not need to say “No comment”. I have a lot of people telling me the truth in F1, because they trust me. The more people trust you,the better the results that you get. As I have said liars are worthless and I do not deal with them, but who decides what a liar is? In my case, it is very simple. If they tell me the truth I trust them. The views of fans are created by picking up opinions from others. You can believe who you like and think you know the answers but sometimes you need to stop and ask whether you are right. Half the people in F1 you think are liars are not liars.
Joe,
We salute your integrity
how do you see the sale affecting the fortunes of PDR? I know the speculation is that he’s on his way to Mercedes in 2013, but if the current team start failling him, will they [MB] still be willing to take him on, on the back of a bad season in 2012?
I fear for his future if this is the case
G
What about Michiel Mol, is he not still a director and share holder in the team? if so would it not be possible that he is the one selling the minority stake ?
Joe,
When one of these ‘rumours’ flies along, does it mean overtime/overdrive mode during a race week-end to get all the finer details, or is it a bit of shaking the tree and see what falls out of it (inferring that you rely more on your network than the paddock for the real meat of the stories)?
I’m already salivating at the gory details, impacts and speculations, thought it was getting a bit boring with the Lotus stuff pretty much settled (apparently).
Can we expect an in-depth article about this in Sunday’s GP+, or is it too early to call ?-)
I think the problem is, the story broke before he could get a lid on it..
He would of had to deny it so as not to spoil any negotiations – if indeed any were taking place.
Think of it this way…You don’t tell the world you are about to leave your job, just because you had an interview with another company…. You deny it until the deal is done.. then you go public.
50% owned by Michel Mol.
50% owned by Vijay Mallya
Sahara bought 42%
So who is selling? Michel Mol lost a lot of money with the Spyker adventure and since then preferred to stay under the radar.
On a note, would it not have been easier for Mallya to sell his boat?
When I was at Mac’s, it was denied time and time again that Kimi was leaving to go to Ferrari…. to the press and to the staff in the factory. Whitters stood in front of us all and said: “Kimi is staying here”…
What happened next?? Yup.. he signed for Ferrari and the rest is history.
I truly feel that this was done to keep the sponsors happy and the fans happy.. It maintained brand value and interest in McLaren. Sometimes, just sometimes, you need to tell a little porky, just to tide things over and keep the populous happy…
I am sure it will all come out in the wash, and FIF1 will have investment, bigger facilities will follow and they will move up the grid… VJM will say he had to lie, as he was on the spot, and mid negotiations, and didn’t want to spoil the party..
Pete,
If that is how you think business should be done then that is fine. As to the Kimi thing I don’t remember it being anything more than rumours before the deal was announced. I see no reason why McLaren would have anything to gain from denying a driver departing. I guess they did not know for sure. It is not true that you have to tell lies. The smart people say that they cannot answer the question.
So after all that, he’s not sold the team anyway. He’s sold PART of the team. I think your well-known antipathy for Mallya rather got the better of you there Joe. The implication of the original story was that Mallya was getting out completely, which clearly he isn’t. I doubt you’d be so vociferous in your comments if it had been Jackie Stewart or Ron Dennis denying the specifics of a story that has a vague element of truth. Then they’d just be described as “canny” or “choosing his words carefully”.
Perhaps the other party demanded denial as part of the negotiation? You’ve been a bit overly condemnatory of Mallya with this post in my opinion.
forzaminardi,
You can dress it up however you like but I will never agree with you.
And isn’t it a case Mol family offloaded their majority while vijay just sold 8% of its previous value, the break up i know is:
42% – Sahara
42%- Vijay
16% – Mol
Then how is this an utter lie?
Vickyy
The team was not for sale…
Joe, I salute your commitment to the truth, and you’re right that we (the public) rely on you to tell us what’s really happening. In this case though your posts read like you are far too emotional about this, it’s only a business transaction at the end of the day. Good journalism requires passion for sure, but also a degree of detachment as I’m sure you know.
Maybe he lied because he doesn’t want journalists to have the story yet. There’s no public interest defence here, it’s a private company. It’s not like he’s stealing secrets or rigging races by crashing, it’s just one bloke selling some shares to another bloke.
It’s not important, it’s a non story. Why not use your skills and contacts to tell us about something actually interesting instead?
Graeme,
If you accept living in a shitty world, then that is what you get. I’d rather fight for something better.
Joe – I am intrigued by your comment that “half the people in F1 you think are liars are not liars” . Plus, this follows on from your statement that you do not deal with people who you consider untrustworthy, and I recall an article a week or so ago in which you reported catching up for a chat with Bernie. I deduce from this that you consider Bernie trustworthy. This would indeed seem to suggest that many F1 fans have got it wrong as I detect a general feeling that people seem to think he is “a bit dodgy” even if they can’t actually pin anything on him.
I would love to know who is in the other half (ie those we think are liars, who really are) – apart from VJM of course!
No one is selling anything. There’s just a new investor coming in, being issed new shares at a good price for the team. Totally different issue. No cash out for VJM.
s,
No-one is selling anything? Wake up!
Of course “Bernie is actually a decent bloke after all” wouldn’t sell many papers now would it?
So Joe,
My comment isn’t published. It had no abuse or derogatory content and just presented an honest point of view. I do not see a valid reason for not publishing it nor do I expect one, but this isn’t something that one would expect from a veteran journalist like you.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the next thing you said was “if you don’t like it, don’t read or comment”.
Rits,
I have no idea what you last comment was but if it was not published it was probably because it was disrespectful in tone. Your ability to comment is a privilege not a right.
First of all the many comments following the post by Joe, indicates that there are indeed many race fans gettign more and involved in the finer things of the sport, not just supporting or not. That is good.
But the posts also shows a complete disregard for the trouble it is, when a man like Mallya is saying one thing last week, and now is being caught with his fingers in the cookie jar, still insisting it´s not him.
Joe have been reporting for longer than some of you have been alive, and I also got a very good confirmation of this story three days ago, but only posted it yesterday, because I needed final confirmation. Basically, if you are in doubt if a story is true or not, you go here. Joe knows, simple as that.
$100M investment into the team… Boom!
Bigger facility?
More CFD?
Better Aero & Windtunnel facility?
I hate to say it… but……………….
Pete,
And who says that the money will go into the team? A proven liar… So…
Enjoy India Joe.
I’m surprised a well-travelled man such as yourself seems unwilling to be objective in this situation. There are legal issues to consider, ( I think a denial is all that would be acceptable by law, “no comment” is not enough) and more over there are cultural issues to consider in which what you perceive to be a lie is regarded more of a postponement. I agree from a European position some of the comments from FIndia have been difficult to swallow and their driver management approach has been different, but I would not say it is wrong. Simply different to what some of the F1 fraternity may be used to.
Jon Wilde,
Legal issues can be solved using the words “no comment” or saying nothing. I am not stupid. I know what the world is like, but I think it is worth fighting.
Joe,
The FIA clearly stated that McLaren was excluded from the 2007 championship, for knowingly stealing Ferrari technical data and then (repeatedly) LYING about it!
Please, could you be so kind to explain what I have have no understanding about?
Or did they exclude McLaren because Max didn’t like Ronny’s haircut?
Elfredore,
Do you believe everything that everyone says? Why do you believe this and not the McLarne arguments.
Hi Joe
This is my first comment on your site. I find it quite different and the non sensationalist reporting and your in depth analysis and background information collection is quite remarkable. Looking at the responses generated and your replies, I am particularly interested in the Mclaren spygate scandal and your take on it. I am not sure if you have covered this before since I have been following your blog since only a year ago.
Thanks
Given that Force India’s DNA is Jordan then Midland then Spyker, I am reasonably certain quite a few whoppers are in the bloodline. There is a lot of lying in sports, period. I don’t believe what anyone says, I watch what they do.
Joe:
In your reply to Elfredore, you mention how he does not fully know what happened in 2007, I get the same feeling about myself not knowing the complete picture of what happened in that whole episode.
Do you know of any books or publications that have been written (accurate depictions of what happened, I mean) that can help us outsiders get grasp on all that happened presented in an objective manner; a lot of the articles I’ve read on the subject tend to fall squarely on either the “Mclaren are angels who did nothing wrong” or “Mclaren are the root of all evil and must pay”… something tells me that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle and far more nuanced.
Thanks
Joe,
From your previous response to Graeme, I am now wondering if you knew about McLaren stealing the Ferrari data? This would explain why you still talk to the most dishonest team in modern F1 history.
On the other hand this would also make you a liar for not revealing such massive dishonesty, which is incumbent on the media in the 21st century.
Maybe Julian Assange should get a paddock pass eh?
Elfredore,
You do not know very much about 2007. Perhaps you should try and find out.
Pete,
dead on the money mate. Prior to the last election in Aus, the incumbent PM said on national TV “there will be no carbon tax under the government that I lead”, she won the election and guess what?
Carbon tax was passed through parliament yesterday. Lucky Joe isn’t a political correspondent, his principals would exclude him from talking to any of them.
Even if Mallya never wanted to sell his stake in the team, he was persuaded to change his mind in this case… this group can buy whatever they like. This group has the blessing of people who matter to do whatever it likes… so i’m not surprised by this flip.
besides the reports which Mallya denied was about him selling all his stake to Sahara to fund his business…
But then there’s Pitpass’ coverage which does not include the word “sell”. It’s a “co-ownership deal”.
Well, that clears that up, doesn’t it?!
Joe. Its called commercial sensitiviry. Those of us that work in the commercial or legal fields understand why this is done. Maybe you (who is forever telling people that don’t agree with you that they don’t know about f1) should actually lisyen to them instead of getting all upity
rc,
No, it is called lying. I don’t give a stuff about commercial sensitivity. I judge people by whether they are honest. He is not.
What does this mean for the selection of drivers next year and beyond?
Is the team now more likely to pick an Indian driver?
you mest never talk to many people in F1 due to lies…I remember one a couple of years ago in Melbourne – do you still talk to the driver concerned?
Raelene
Read the other responses to similar comments. Things are not always as thy seem but if that is the reality you want to have… that is your choice.
Guys, Joe has no problems with passionate comments and sensible debate, but remember that you are part of a diverse community and it is necessary to be respectful of others. One can be critical of statements, but try to avoid remarks about people; try to talk about the motorsport world, and skip obscenities, political rhetoric, and anything that might give offence.
It is OK for him to call Vijay Mallya, a liar.. rofl
Guys, Joe has no problems with passionate comments and sensible debate, but remember that you are part of a diverse community and it is necessary to be respectful of others. One can be critical of statements, but try to avoid remarks about people; try to talk about the motorsport world, and skip obscenities, political rhetoric, and anything that might give offence.
It is OK for him to call Vijay Mallya, a liar.. rofl
joesaward
Pete,
And who says that the money will go into the team? A proven liar… So…
Firstly He didn’t lie. He sold 8% that’s all. He remains team principal and is staying with the team. Read the quote
That may change in the future as events alter but for now he didn’t lie. Either way It happens in business all the time. Chelsea FC are going through a similar thing and the board are being equally as evasive .
Back in September I posted -correctly- that FI was to have a big name sponsor or partner. ..(By that weekend I knew who was involved) I also said there was to be a 10m investment in the wind tunnel
Lets see if I’m proven right for the second time.
I would hazzard a guess that maybe Jo’s stance on this lie (which I feel is a norm in F1) goes deeper than what we know as Jo-public. From Jo’s posts I also get the impression he is selective on the information chosen to share with us mere ‘fans’ as his intelligence allows a ‘no comment’ on stuff maybe we should know but would get him thrown out of the paddock???
I would hope I was wrong and Jo just has real beef with lying and VJ.
Anyway I would rather jo you called a close to this and got on with some more juicy stories and facts about our beloved F1.
Dave Townrow,
Why do you think this is the norm in F1? It is not at all. F1 is better now than it has been for many years. With regard to selective reporting: it might help if you consider that there is a thing called libel. If you understand the laws then you might understand what journalists have to work around. The only beef I have with Mallya is that F1 needs to be seen as trustworthy to get the corporate dollar and behaviour like this makes it more difficult for everyone. “No comment” would have been fine. Lying just makes one look like a rather dim slime-bag.
Ok, this is ridiculous.
Why the personal attacks on Joe? He is in a privileged position and allows us an insight into the world of F1 as he sees it.
As we are not in this world, how can we pass judgement – condemning him for what is, after all, his opinion.
As I see this, there was a rumour (albeit a soundly-sourced one) that all or some or a bit of the team would change ownership. VM flatly denied this, categorically stating there would be NO change of ownership. Not 48 hours later, there is a change of ownership (although not the change everyone was expecting). How is that not lying?
As Joe points out, this is not a public discussion board – this is a blog that he promotes/maintains/whatever – he does not need to allow us to comment. Be grateful he does, and takes the time to read and respond, unlike some other blogs.
If you don’t like what is being posted, stop reading it and go elsewhere. May I suggest your favourite teams blogs? See how informative and responsive they are… Go troll elsewhere.
Bottom line – well done Joe for getting the story. Thanks for keeping us in the loop, I continue to enjoy reading your posts.
Joe,
If this little porky is getting you this upset, I can’t believe you continued with F1 after 1994; almost every word out of every mouth in the pitlane was a lie.
John,
Have you ever been in an F1 Paddock?
Media reports had said the flamboyant liquor and aviation baron was in talks to sell the team to business conglomerate Sahara Group.
‘I was shocked to read a media report that I am selling the Force India Formula One team – this is completely untrue and without any basis whatsoever,’ said Mallya in a statement.
“As Team Principal, I will continue to run the team and I have no plans whatsoever to exit.”
That is what he said.
He has not sold The FI team he sold 8% (spot the difference) and he will continue to be team principle..You cannot ‘sell the team’ and remain joint owner
He has not lied….
India!,
It´s not just about how many stakes Mallya sold, it´s the fact that he changed ownership, in any way or form. Selling 8 percent has nothing to do with who runs it. Now Sahara Group owns 42,5, Mallya owns another 42, spot the difference of the 0,5%, and Mol retains the rest.
Don´t come barging into a blog, claiming this and that when at the end of the day, you don´t know anything. Let me paint you a little picture here: Say I am a journalist, a trained and seasoned one. I write for a paper in, say Denmark, and one day decides to be my own boss. I set up a blog, call in favours, I write to old friends in teams, have a lunch with team bosses, etc. I know people, but still I am on the outside. Getting into the paddock, no matter who you are and how great your reputation is, the process is like this: You need to prove to the FIA, that you have attended 15 races, of your own choice, take as long as you like, then you can APPLY to get into the paddock. This is not a certain thing, however. if you are granted permission, the FIA can give you a race-by-race admission, and if you don´t make money on what you do, this can take years.
Now take Joe, who has been doing this for 25 years. He is on first name basis with the most of the paddock, people respect him, knows him, he knows his way around. You honestly expect me to believe that Joe doesn´t know what he is talking about?
Mallya said last week that the team would not change ownership, and hey presto it did.
Joe, Next time you visit Denmark, I buy you a round.
Oh and by the way, there are several people here who seems to think that Joe has lost his marbles, because he has lost his objectivity. Where does it say that Joe is objective? The blog is a personal blog, where Joe writes about F1. If you don´t like it, stay away from it, then. Commenting is a privilege, not a right. Joe´s blog, Joe´s rules.
Capisce?