Before writing any ill-considered comments, I think it is best for people to consider the following. It is less than 24 hours since Daniel Wheldon died. The Internet may move at a frantic pace but writing stories suggesting that this would have saved Wheldon’s life or that this is being done or that is being done, or that closed cockpits are the future.
Stop.
There may be one or two people in the IndyCar world that have had an insight into exactly what happened or why, but that is certainly not public information at this stage and until the proper investigations are completed it is ludicrous for anyone to claim that they think they know what is needed, or what can be done (if anything) to make sure that the same sort of thing does not happen again.
In the modern era, much of this work is done by scientists, using the data available from the cars and advanced computer modelling to examine and then develop solutions to problems.
So, before we start being too clever, let us have a little time to mourn Dan and not start discussions about which none of us are qualified to speak.
joeblogsf1 
The internet can do amazing things; bring people together, speed communications, facilitate discussion between far flung places, but it does tend to encourage intemperate speech and hasty comments, not to even get into the subject of trolling. I do see one cruel irony in the fact that this was the last race that the current Dallara chassis would run, to be replaced by the new, safer one track tested by Dan Wheldon.
RIP Dan Wheldon!
You will be missed.
Well said and thank you Joe, thoughts are with his family, RIP Dan. x
well said…
Couldn’t agree more.
Joe, are you having a go at James Allen and his latest blog post?
Joe Sumegi,
No. I am saying that now is not the time for any of this… Including unimportant website sniping.
Totally agree…..
A timely word well said, as usual.
Only thought I had was, besides the mourning of course, that it did not even look that bad a crash. I have not seen extensive footage….but there you go…even in IndyCar we have seen bigger ones with everyone walking away.
It is not for nothing that your F1 tickets says that motorracing is a dangerous sport.
My thoughts go out to his wive, children and family.
Very well said. It’s far too easy to jump to conclusions and make knee jerk reactions in these types of situations. Let’s just remember Dan for the great sportsman that he was.
Good words Joe, the only way to prevent fatal crashes in motorsport is to stop it completely. Motorsport is dangerous, it says it on the ticket. So much is learned from such incidents which is the important thing, look at how F1 and motorsport in general has moved on since 1994. Any sport that involves speed is dangerous, a cyclist died on the tour of Italy this year, but another was critically injured by his garage door… A sport that requires being on the edge will always result in people going over it.
Possibly the saddest thing about this is that this is undoubtedly the most coverage Dan or even Dario has received in the UK mainstream media, which given their success is disappointing.
Spot on. So many ‘instant experts’ at a time when quiet reflection and considered investigation is what is really needed.
Still, those Indycars do catch fire awful easy…
Joe,
As always with these events, there will be much hand wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth. We have become used to drivers walking away from large accidents, as 14 others did in Las Vegas yesterday but you can never account for the randomness in life that occasionally bites…
It is a cliche but it says on the ticket and around the circuit that motorsport is dangerous. All who participate and to some extent spectate have to accept that.
Indycar have already finished with the current cars and will run new safer cars, ironically developed with Dan Wheldon leading the testing, from next year. No-one would argue racing should be more dangerous than necessary but unfortunately if you race around at high speed, then danger is a necessary consequence. All you can influence is the odds, never the outcomes.
There is only one way to make motorsport safe and that is to stop doing it and take up scalextric.
It’s extremely sad this happened, and further highlighted by the drivers previously, to have had that many drivers at such high speed on such a short track was obviously a concern, but hindsight is as usual a wonderful thing.
Above all through, anyone who works in Motorsport know’s it’s extremely dangerous, it’s why the print that exact statement at the bottom of all tickets.
I hope the series does the right thing for the family and supports them in this extremely difficult time.
Agreed.
RIP Dan, Shoya Tomizawa too.
I agree now let’s step back and respectfully mourn Dan and pray for his wife and beautiful kids as well as his parents and his wife’s parents. RIP Dan I am sure your racing friends will circle around your family and help them through.
My total respect to you Dan Wheldon Indy 500 Champion
Well said Joe. Too many people jumping onto bandwagons. It’s a tough, dangerous sport, in which, luckily, death visits us less and less, but will always be a risk (hence the rewards at the top level).
RIP Dan, I’m thinking of you and your family.
Entirely echo your sentiments Joe. As usual, you comments are poignant and well written.
As I said in my message to you at the weekend in the aftermath of the Force India debacle, the internet has sadly provided a platform for those who would do well to either stop and consider their comments first, OR not post in the first place
Deepest condolancies to Dan and his family and friends. Whatever the circumstances of the incident, we must remember first and foremost of those affected by this tradegy, NOT become involved in an “I know better than you” round of BS between armchair experts!!
G
Well said Joe, let’s let Dan RIP before the lessons are learnt and drivers in the future benefit from the improvement(s) that result.
Nicely said, a sober view as always Joe.
I am walking around with a broken nose after entering the ring a week or so ago for a martial arts competition. I knew the risks of fighting and I don’t seek to blame anyone.
Mr Wheldon paid the ultimate price for participating in an extreme sporting event. Everyone who takes part in motor racing accepts the risks every time they fasten up their helmet. They do so glady because it is what they have chosen to do to pay the bills or as their hobby or as their lifelong craft and passion.
Martial arts has been in the news lately in the UK with commentators (who are not participants in the sport) making ignorant, emotive statements for dramatic effect. We see that too here with motor racing after the tragic events of yesterday.
Increasing safety is a continuous activity in motorsport and amazing things have been achieved. But no one is to blame for yesterday. It is a risky activity and sadly, sometimes those risks become real tragedy.
I support what you say Joe. Let’s not yet our current societal blame culture whip us hysteria about what is ‘wrong’ with motor sport.
Tend to agree. Not the time to go trying to find blame.
People already blaming things like too many cars etc. That sort of accident could have happened with 24 cars or 34 cars in the race, unfortunately.
Very well said Joe
Yes, it’s very easy to become clever post-factum.
If I knew the solution for having secure races, I would have shared it to the world. But I don’t know it.
Every human life is a great loss, I hope the responsible people will learn from that terrible accident.
Well said, Joe. It was an awful accident and I feel terrible for his family and friends.
I’m sure IndyCar is planning on reviewing this accident fully with all the onboard data/etc that they’ve got (and that none of us have seen).
well said Joe,
As you write Joe, its hard to tell what even exactly happened from just the footage. And no one save a few insiders know exactly what injuries Wheldon suffered.
I am sure this accident will be thoroughly studied to find out what happended, how it happened and what can be done to prevent it. And the new chassis will surely be tested accordingly, implementing factors learnt from that.
But for now, there is hardly anyone here commenting on the net who can say more than that its a great tragedy we are sad about and would want not to have happened, and never repeated.
Joe,
I couldn’t agree more. As an Indiana native, I’m a lifelong openwheel racing fan. This just guts me. For those outside the US looking for reasonable reporting on all of this, I recommend the Indianapolis Star (www.indystar.com). Especially Curt Cavin.
Joe, When tragedy occurs it attracts some very strange people My father experienced this first hand when a glider pilot had a launch accident and died as Dad was comforting him. The widow understood the risks he took for the pleasure he got from his pastime. However, a multitude of people then appeared to feast off his tragedy pushing their own agendas. It was sickening to see. I’m sure Dan, and his family, accepted that this might happen. Tragic as this was, the rest of us have no rights in this matter and, as you rightly point out, should refrain from ‘instant’ solutions.
High speed, small ovals, large fields and ignoring the concerns of the drivers, IndyCar’s organizers have some soul-searching to do because their quest for better ratings has comprised the safety of the series. Mike Conway was very lucky last year to survive his contact with the catch-fencing. Dan this year wasn’t lucky and so we have lost a talented, and likeable, driver who deserved the top team position he was due to have next year.
Heartfelt condolences to his family
Kevin
Tell this to the Daily Mail.
Horrendous piece of trash they have printed today.
Joe, one of your previous posts included a list of various incidents in racing with one thing in common: They would have been prevented with a closed cockpit.
With the greatest respect, Joe, I do not see anything wrong with wanting to prevent accidents like that from occurring in the future.
A closed cockpit may work in other professional series, but not in the amature hour of the .1rl.
Drivers would be cooked to death waiting for the saftey crew to figure out how their fire equipment worked, or just how to open the door on the car…
I do wonder if 225 MPH is not just too much for a number of open wheel cars travelling in close proximity on a short circuit. The energy of a racing car at that speed (proportional to the square of the speed) is 50% greater than the same car at 182MPH. If one takes into account the somewhat greater weight of the US single seaters it is is closer to 75% greater than an F1 car at 180 MPH. All this energy has to be dissipated in an accident and if one has the misfortune to hit a catch fencing support like it looks like Dan Wheldon sadly may have, the chances of it being non-survivable are high. I have spoken to Indy car drivers in the past and they all talk about the buffeting and effect of wheel and wing vortices at maximum speed affecting car control.
Would one answer be to limit boost according to an expert assessment of the safe speed for each track. I am not sure the spectacle would be lessened by cars with a maximum of around 180MPH on a short track like Las Vegas, rather than the current 225 MPH. It is only by luck that we did not also loose Mike Conway last year as well. I take the Jackie Stewart view that motor racing should not be a gladiatorial contest. I think most of us would agree that JS’ and others’ efforts to make F1 safer, have not diminished the sport.
Wilson
Well said Joe. What amazes me is how many websites and new organisations are linking to the videos of the crash. Have some decency people
Well put, Joe.
Yes no one knows 100%. Yet there are things that, although not directly related to the accident, can be improved. Life and death don’t hold. Act before things are 100% clear and 100% way too late.
“let us … not start discussions about which none of us are qualified to speak”
^ That’s pretty funny in the light of current events.
CerinoDevoti,
Funny? Not much is funny at the moment. But I guess it takes all sorts to make a world.
24 hours on and it still doesn’t seem real, I remember Senna but was too young to really comprehend it all. Remember watching live on tv when Greg Moore was killed which was very difficult.
This is a massive loss to Britain and the greater motorsport community.
Before I make my point its only right to pay tribute to Dan Wheldon as one of the greatest driving exports this country has ever produced.
2 Indy 500 wins and an Indy title in the space of 6 years puts Dan right up there with any of the British motor racing legends.
The hardest thing about it all is that sinking feeling that it could have been avoided if it hadn’t been for a series of questionable decisions.
Firstly to think that they were even going to let rally drivers, x games drivers etc into the race is almost scary in itself. But the decision to allow a 34 car entry was irresponsible at best and a possible case of gross negligence at worst.
That it was allowed at Las Vegas, a Nascar track that had no place on the Indycar calender only makes it worse. It seems they have been fixated on creating restrictor plate-style Nascar racing despite the dangers being ten fold with open wheelers.
One of the things that struck me was after only a few laps was that cars were already touching wheels and it made you fear the worst, had the crash happened half way through the race you could have maybe put it down to a racing accident but that it happened after only 12 laps showed that the cars clearly were not suited to racing there and it was only a matter of time.
The other scary thing is that there could have so easily have been 2 or 3 drivers who lost their lives in the accident and it was only luck that prevented this.
I’m not calling for resignations or anything like that, what Indycar needs right now is leadership but it also needs to hold its hands up and bring about some fundamental changes for the future.
In my humble opinion the 1.5 mile ovals like Vegas, Texas, Iowa have no place in this form of racing. Places like Milwaukee and New Hampshire yes but Indycar cannot take any more unnecessary risks with where they race and the fast ovals really need to go.
I’d be amazed and appalled in equal measure if they return to Vegas next year. The championship needs to build its future on road courses, street tracks, short ovals and of course the Indy 500.
I found last nights viewing the most difficult of my 20 years of watching motorsports and although you can never make racing completely safe lets hope we never see a multiple car crash the likes of that ever again.
It all seems so cruel on Dan Wheldon of course his family, it will take a long time for everyone for it to sink in.
RIP DW
I agree entirely Joe.
Dan Wheldon was unfortunate to have the accident that is always possible in oval racing, and suffered from multiple misfortunes where Kenny Brack, Arie Lyundyk, Dario and to some extend Alex Zanardi survived single ‘problem’ accidents – by that I mean scenarios which are difficult to protect against and therefore risk the driver’s life. In comparison to these accidents, Wheldon’s had elements of all of these, which is unfortunate in the extreme.
This kind of accident happens frequently in Indycars, and it was simply a case of all the possible bad scenarios for oval accidents happening all at once. In that respect it is not dissimilar to Imola ’94, where many of the problem areas in F1 accidents at the time were experienced over the course of a single weekend.
The question is really if Indycar has reached the same point in public/participant distaste, and has to reinvent itself to survive in the modern world. Many purists will argue that the drivers know the risks, and to change the nature of oval racing is to damage the sport. The same was said in F1 circles, but (with the possible exception of knee-jerk chicane adding accross F1 circuits in the mid ’90s) F1 has continued to be true to itself regardless of the saftey drive following that black weekend.
Indycar need to take a measured, scientific approach to protecting against such accidents in the fututre, and would do well to learn from F1’s difficult journey 15-odd years ago.
F1 would also do well to learn from the reminder from IndyCar that motorsport is cruel and random accidents will always happen. One thing that ovals do well compared to road circuits is spectator protection, and there are still parts of many modern F1 circuits that would benefit from a re-focussing of efforts on spectator protection.
“Eternal vigilance” is the phrase that counts here, and we would all do well to remember that.
Well said Joe . . . well said.
There will be plenty of time for seeking answers. Now is the time to mourn and heal.
Rest in peace Dan . . . rest in peace.
Wasn’t intended as sniping. I read James’ post and then saw your post come up on my Twitter feed. The timing was just really close.
In saying that, I actually agree with you – out of emotion only comes bandaid solutions (as well as “I told you sos”) that don’t provide long term fixes.
I was very stunned to hear about this.
I feel so sorry for Wheldon’s family and wider circle.
I also feel for the Indycar fraternity. There has been so much effort to return Indycar racing to it’s glory days of the mid and early 90’s. The organisers, the teams involved and the loyal Indycar fans must be feeling so sad today. God bless them.
And rest in peace, Dan Wheldon.
Very fair point. Inevitably such questions arise when something like this happens – it’s a reflex reaction in some ways, dealing with the shock by trying to prevent it happening again – but as you say the most fundamental issue is that a very talented and likeable young man has lost his life in tragic circumstances. I will admit I posted on a thread concerning closed cockpits, but in so doing I made a point of saying we don’t know what difference, if any, it would have made to Dan – we simply don’t know enough, and it may have made no difference whatsoever. As Chip Ganassi said, there’s plenty of time in the off-season to go over this in detail, and right now we should mourn Dan’s passing. That all being said, there are questions which clearly need to be answered. For now, RIP Dan.
Thank you Joe. RIP Dan.
Careful there Joe, you are making entirely too much sense.
This is the internet after all.
Vale, Dan Wheldon.
The “too many cars” argument doesn’t hold water it could have happened with just two cars. We need to look for more safety but the internet wants it fixed in a “day.” That is impossible. Improvements will be found but they take time.
I follow IndyCar fairly closely. Not as much as F1 but more than taxicabs. Wheldon seemed like an especially good person. A bit cocky but that’s okay. A guy who had experienced great heights early, winning the Indy 500 and a champioship pretty quickly but then seeing his fortunes decline as more road/street courses came into the schedule. He lost his ride at a top team like Ganassi and then a middle team like Panther. But no doubt stabilized by marriage and fatherhood, he didn’t sulk, was friendly to everyone who met him. He did some commentary on the Versus races during the season and was highly praised, although he pointed out he didn’t want to do it full time at age 33. He was all set to take the Danica Patrick seat at Andretti for 2012 and perhaps have a revival in his mid30s like his rival and friend Dario Franchitti.
But tragedy intervened.
We should soon look at whether this accident could have been prevented and also hope that other racing series never get complacent about safety. I don’t think IndyCar has but they are faced with a dilemma that many of their fans want oval race tracks (only one-third are or will be in 2012) yet the smaller tracks like Milwaukee and New Hampshire don’t draw well. That leaves the 1.5 mile banked tracks designed for NASCAR where IndyCar drivers go 220 mph three wide and a slight bobble by one driver can have disastrous consequences for those in back.
Your absolutly right joe a very sensible approach, We should stop and mourn the loss of dan and think and respect his family loss…
Joe
I believe that once again you are correct.Although the inter-web is all about free speech.
My father once told me “beware of anything that is offered for free”.
On the internet it seems,FREE,means ,the price you pay is the burden of a non-professional opinion.
I am also surprised that after all of the crappy crime scene investigation shows,where they gather clues,investigate,and finally come to a conclusion.that some people think they know the complete picture the next day,it speaks volumes as to their inability to understand that finite details play a very important roll.
A correct decision cannot be achieved without all of the facts.
Watch a few episodes of Air Crash Investigation.
They have learned the lesson,not to bow to media pressure,and this demand for instant gratification.Perhaps the N.T.S.B. may even investigate this crash.
Either way please be aware that these are the people trying anything to draw attention to themselves or sell you something.
Gone but always in my memory.
R.I.P. Dan
Thank you Joe,
I wish more in the pressroom and the paddock were so restrain. There are too many ‘journalist’ out there wanting to exploit a tragedy, even one as tragic as what happened in Las Vegas on Sunday.
I am sicken by the amount of (expletive deleted) that is flowing from certain members of the F1, NASCAR and mainstream media. These include the BBC, AUTOSPORT, ESPN and others who are so ready to publish the misguided, ill informed, ‘from the hip’ opinion pieces about Indycar. Indycar will sort this out; just like what NASCAR did when Dale Sr. died in 2001 and what F1 did when Senna died in 94.
It is clear-headed pieces like this is why I read your stuff and gladly support your efforts.
– Dan Brunell
OK then, I’m not going to make any suggestions. However… In my opinion, putting 34 evenly matched open-wheeled cars on a 1.5 mile oval at 225 mph is akin to giving 10 cases of beer to 20 college students… SOMETHING is going to happen and it’s probably not going to be good…
An autopsy would help the most, finding out what sort of injuries caused his death.
Clearest of the clear! No wonder your postings are always the first and virtually the only I read regards our sport………………Sincerely Chuck Jones
Joe, I agree entirely and this is why you should never let the guttersnipes of the internet get to you. You offer rational and informed reportage of all aspects ofmotorsport.
Dan may your god go with you and my thoughts are with your family and friends.
My apologies Joe, looking back now my comment was certainly one of those that was inappropriate.
Agreed Joe in the rushing to speculate.However over 200 mph against a hard concrete wall makes you wonder how this does not happen more often. It kind of flies in the face of everything Jackie Stewart and co campaigned for in f1.
When a worst-case scenario of accident, bad luck and misfortune like this becomes tragically real in the sporting arena you are forced to stop and reflect on the ever-present shadow of death patiently waiting to claim its next victim wherever high-speed projectiles and immovable objects are asked to co-exist.
Joe, pointr taken.
Thanks…. Steve
I meant point taken.
Listen To the motor sport magazine podcast with JYS
Jim,
I think you’ll find the Indycar safety crew is amongst the best in the world. They’re different from F1 in that the same crew goes to every event in the world, and often they’re at the scene of a crash before a car stops rolling.
Yes, sometimes things happent hat aren’t ideal but I think you should read Joe’s post again and have a long think about what you’re saying. Something tells me you’re not an expert – the fact that you think they’re still called IRL is interesting.
I hashed out my thoughts over at Axis of Oversteer, but a shorter summary is this: Indy is the only big-time open-wheel formula here in the states. The bulk of the races, and thus money, is at the ovals, for the simple fact that road racing is at best the second-tier format in the U.S. Until the fans and sponsors start watching and pushing the traditional road/street tracks as the place for this sport, we’ll see more of this kind of thing. No amount of changes to the cars or tracks will prevent these incidents.
Frankly, I’d much rather see the occasional (if admittedly awful) accident than no racing at all. Dan died doing what he loved, without regrets, I’m certain. He’ll be a HERO and idol for many fans and future drivers, if not a catalyst for change in American open-wheel racing. Perhaps it will ignite a latent passion for the sport through such terrible headlines. One can only hope. What we as fans need to do to honor DW’s accomplishments and sacrifice is work to keep our sport valuable and safe for future drivers and fans, not regulate the life out of it. Indy has overcome too much over the past decade(s) to be eviscerated by safety overkill.
Never met the man but as a fan of racing I have long admired his skills on and off track. Off track in particular where his seemingly endless optimism, humor and willingness to interact with fans was unusual if not rare compared to other talents in the series.
Never met the man but I feel his loss and sympathize with his family friends and colleagues. Saw his Dad’s comment on the U.S. news last night, I can now understand where Dan received his eloquence.
What a tragic loss for racing. Did anyone else notice how well the wheel tethers held up? With fifteen cars involved, that’s 60 potential missiles that the safety technology improvements of the last decade prevented. While it didn’t help Dan Wheldon, it certainly made a difference for the other drivers and spectators who were present. Rest in Peace, Dan.
Just want to say, all my non racing fan friends asked me about the man, today, and i nearly bust up, because i knew so very little, basically felt like a tool, nothing to add which wasn’t my passion and not Dan Wheldon’s. Had nothing to say which made any sense. It feels like there is a rent in the fabric. Actually, no, i bust up. Just in private, my own uselessness, because have nothing to add. No direct loss, no anger at stupid rules, no anything in balance. Just a searing hole. Sod the arguments which must happen, but i just always admired real drivers. If i translate that feeling of loss to me into reality and multiply a thousand times, I’m not bare close to what his family may feel. But someone is missing. That’s what i feel.
seems like half the people commenting didn’t bother to read the article at the top 😀
Let it go. Wish his family and friends well and go back to commenting on the bahrain “debacle” or something other irrelevant crap.
I think it perfectly appropriate and necessary to question and criticize aspects of racing which needlessly permit safety risks to remain greater than they might be. However, this should be done by fairly reporting facts, not by saying things that are false.
> glen luchford
>
> Agreed Joe in the rushing to speculate.However over 200 mph against
> a hard concrete wall makes you wonder how this does not happen more
> often. It kind of flies in the face of everything Jackie Stewart and co
> campaigned for in f1.
This 2004 link (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1773455) provides some information and a photo of the SAFER walls that the IRL commissioned years ago. They first appeared at Indy and a few others in 2002, and were installed at a host of fast ovals (including Las Vegas) in 2004.
Thus, while concrete walls may be a normal feature of some F1 tracks, IndyCar racers have long since found SAFER walls in the corners where contact is most likely to occur. I don’t know the degree to which SAFER walls are used along the straights, but I do know that wall contact did not cause serious injury to anyone at all in the recent Las Vegas tragedy.
> mild7nick
>
> In my humble opinion the 1.5 mile ovals like Vegas, Texas, Iowa have
> no place in this form of racing. Places like Milwaukee and New
> Hampshire yes but Indycar cannot take any more unnecessary risks
> with where they race and the fast ovals really need to go.
My opinion is somewhat similar to yours, in that I think the *kind* of racing that 1.5 mile banked ovals currently present must be changed. I am far from being an expert on the subject, but from listening to others who know more than I do, it appears that it is not the 1.5 mile ovals themselves that are the problem but rather the pack-racing that current car spec’s accidentally encourage. It is having cars traveling at high speed in tight packs that is the main problem.
To date, I have heard 2 possible fixes:
(1) Some have argued for a bit more horsepower which would remove the current nonsense in which everyone might just put a brick on the go pedal, leaving the drivers to do nothing but steer. Proper racing implies not just putting ones right foot down, but also lifting off and braking, as the combination of these behaviors is what helps cars separate themselves from each other. The current mix of 1.5 ovals and horsepower limits which prevent the drivers’ feet from doing much of anything is itself a very bad combination.
(2) Others have argued for a return to the Hanford device (or something like it) that prevent each car’s aero design from removing the vacuum behind it, which in turn has two consequences. First, it slows the car down, as it is being sucked backwards by its own aero effects. Second, it creates more passing by permitting a trailing car to drive up into the leading car’s vacuum and then slingshot forward and around the car it was chasing, thus encouraging separation from pack racing.
Now, I don’t know if either or both of these would be adequate to solve the problem of pack racing. But given the NASCAR-induced rise of 1.5 mile ovals across the landscape, and the resulting status of larger speedways as endangered species, I would hope those in the know (not me) would exhaust opportunities for fixing the problem before they arbitrarily ban the venues in which the problem presents itself.
> NM Jeff
>
> I hashed out my thoughts over at Axis of Oversteer, but a shorter
> summary is this: Indy is the only big-time open-wheel formula here
> in the states. The bulk of the races, and thus money, is at the ovals,
> for the simple fact that road racing is at best the second-tier format
> in the U.S.
This is simply untrue. Oval races are the minority of IndyCar races, not the majority. Many among IndyCar’s traditional fan base who favor ovals fear for them dying out, due simply to the greater popularity of 3-day racing festivals located on the streets of metro areas. This is actually quite a problem for IndyCar as it’s history is in being a mix of various track formats (including not only speedways and road courses, but also dirt ovals!). Limiting itself to nothing but road courses and street circuits would be a narrowing and a loss, not a gain, re: the kind of environments in which success must be proved. One recent problem is that fans of IndyCar oval races are not attending in large numbers like they once did, so the very ones who most want to keep the oval element strong are helping cause its recent decline.
> Until the fans and sponsors start watching and pushing the traditional
> road/street tracks as the place for this sport, we’ll see more of this
> kind of thing.
Again, you’ve got it exactly backwards regarding the imbalance between tradition and current popularity.
> No amount of changes to the cars or tracks will prevent these incidents.
Well, this seems something of a strawman that does not comport with history. If you examine the changes made over time, you will find that significant steps have not only been taken to mitigate risks but have also proven to have been largely successful. Now, I agree that we can criticize IndyCar (as well as every other class of racing) for the rate at which adaptive improvements have been incorporated, but it simply unfair and inaccurate to judge them fruitless.
* Fire: One of the major dangers of IndyCar’s past has been effectively dealt with. First was the Indy Car change to methanol fuel in the 60’s (due to its higher flashpoint and because methanol fires can be extinguished with water). This was later followed by the great improvement seen in virtually all racing due to mandated use of Nomex, proper fuel cells, etc.
* Wall impact: Ref the SAFER walls mentioned above.
* Basal skull fractures: IndyCar mandated the HANS device in 2001 (F1 followed with a mandate two years later).
At present, the main danger seems to involve airborne cars, a risk that remains quite serious as we sadly have just seen. There are at least two things required to address this:
1. Cars: The major factor that encourages cars to become airborne at high speed is one car driving up the rear wheels of the car ahead. The 2012 IndyCar spec shields both the front and rear edges of the rear wheels, which is expected to remove much of this danger. (Given recent examples of airborne F1 cars, might F1 be considering something similar?)
2. Catch fences: This seems to be the major factor that remains untouched. I lack the engineering background to know what improvements might be most beneficial, but I think it safe to think that any number of engineers are focused on this as we speak.
Another design feature which may or may not be desirable is canopies. These may or may not be effective in catch-fencing occurrences, just as they may or may not have made a difference in the 1999 event in which IndyCar driver Greg Moore was killed when his car encountered a wall while on its side such that the top of the car hit a wall.
I think we can all agree that racing in general has an unfortunate history of letting some issues go without attention until something bad happens. There can be no defense of this, regardless of which racing series we are speaking about. Thus, I hope to see IndyCar rapidly attack catch-fencing issues.
In the same vein, I also hope F1 will no longer build new clean-paper tracks which position pit-entry and pit-exit in places that seem designed to create accidents. This feature was visible in Korea last year, but I heard no one make much of this until it caused an accident this year. (Maybe someone did make a big noise about it last year and I just missed it.)
Tangential question: When a new F1 track is designed, do the drivers and teams have an opportunity to either grant or deny approval?
Rshack,
The appropriate thing to do in these circumstances is to apply science to safety. This has happened a great deal in recent years and the exchange of information between the US and F1 is constant. Everyone is learning. One must take into account a number of other elements as well. One can make racing as safe as possible but one can never make it 100 percent safe because things will always go wrong and circumstances will differ. There are downsides to every new development. I think in this case the key question relates to the nature of the circuit rather than the the cars or the debris fences, but the safety engineers may not agree. However I do believe that they have a rather better idea of the problems and the solutions than do journalists or fans.
Joe,
I agree… but with the qualification that it appears to be the *combination* of the cars and the particular kind of circuit (1.5 mile banked oval). It is not just one or the other.
What we don’t yet know is whether specific car changes (as recommended by participants, not just fans or journalists) can make that combination reasonably safe.
I completely agree that qualified experts are the ones to decide, not the likes of me.
BTW, the phenomenon of pack racing also occurs in NASCAR at “restrictor plate” races (at just a few very high speed tracks such as Talledega). Many NASCAR drivers hate pack racing just as much as many IndyCar drivers do, and for the very same reasons. The main diff in the consequences is that NASCAR cars provide better armor.
RShack,
NASCAR drivers have a lot more protection and also feature any flying mechanisms.
I’m not here to comment on Dan’s accident. It’s a tragedy. I’m here to look at the big picture.
Racing accidents lead to racing safety improvements. And they in turn lead to civilian safety improvments.
Auto racing has led to way more safety features in the commercial industry than any other avenue has.
I am so sorry Dan died.There is a shining light from this. His death will lead to safety improvements that will trickle down into the commercial automotive industry/highway design that will, over the years, save millions.
In 1998, I was driving a ’97 hyundai excel econobox to work. A hungover jackass pulled out in front of me in a ford f-150 truck and stopped. My options were-
A) swerve into oncoming traffic
b) swerve into pedesrians
c) pick a point to hit him
I picked c). The crush bumper worked. The engine displaced down and under the occupant compartment. The seatbelts, and drivers seat held and decelerated me as designed. All of which came out of racing.
I was still badly injured. But the safety features on one of the most basic cars of it’s day kept me alive. And most or all of those features had their roots in racing.
As Joe pointed out, the experts need time to do their work. Regardless of the time frame that is needed, I’m certain Dan’s life will eventually save millions in new safety features.
mild7nick…I agree with you. As much as the speed astonishes and adds to the spectacle, I have never been comfortable with Indy cars at places like Vegas and Texas. I just don’t feel they belong there, nor do I feel the series should be waving a huge promotional prize to bring drivers out of mothballs at a track like that. Listen to the drivers. They know better than anyone what is reasonable. 34 of these cars flat-out at 225mpf on a short high-banked oval? This race should not have been held.
I don’t know if my post represents the kind of overreaction Joe was warning against, but I don’t feel this point of view is hysterical or even controversial. I feel Indy Car is struggling to keep it’s foothold in the American motorsports consciousness and it got greedy. I know deaths are possible every week, but to me Vegas was too big of a “gamble”…no pun intended and I am still sick and saddened by the whole thing. RIP Dan, and I wish solace and strength to his family.
The questions I got yesterday ran a upsetting gamut, (some were awful, truly awful, macho rubbish, but i couldn’t answer the nice ones, which is what got to me) but one very good one was basically why weren’t we proud enough of our boy to ever have him on the telly here? I can’t exactly say we didn’t, because of satellite and all that, but i hope after a decent interval someone will make a decent television tribute.
RShack,
look up David Coulthard’s written reaction. But as for the medicine and physics, i don’t know. A friend, now long gone, quit what we call the General Medical Council in disgust at lack of science. He was gofer for Rosalind Franklin as a student. You need a combination of hard science and grass roots and raw politick to get things moving, however my cynical opinion is that the pharma lobby has hijacked too much astroturf, certainly about where you are. My own contemporaries brain drained to the USA, mind, because of lack of research budget here. I uphold and applaud Joe’s science to safety view, but picking one’s way through without diversions or attracting interests like a bill before Congress, is an art. I am still taken aback, sleepless night, by the level of interest, concern and inquiry that arose from people who pretty much held no interest in racing. That’s only a straw poll of a dozen, but multiply that, and this is a big issue. Only the most level of heads, and the most qualified stand a chance to press through the thickets. yours – j
John (other): Sky have a tribute/memorial show on Thursday night.
I remember Nigel Roebuck writing about the pointless and hazardous nature of restrictor plate racing, mid or late 90s, in Fifth Column. Possibly prior to the anti-flying devices.
Just my tupennorth, indycars are only safe on ovals when the drivers can drive and race in such a way as to reflect the fact that they are open-wheel. Various factors in combination largely removed that option this time, and perhaps many previous, less lucky, times. As we know, 99.99% of racing drivers will press on regardless.
In terms of necessary changes, we need to start with the thesis that going into catch-fencing topside first is a uniquely dangerous way to crash, and work back from that.
John (other John)
> RShack,
>
> look up David Coulthard’s written reaction.
At your suggestion, I just did. (It didn’t take much convincing, as I always enjoyed the bits of Coulthard I’ve been able to see and hear.)
I also found a piece on the autosport site which reported the statements of both Coulthard and Mark Webber. Of the two, I think Webber’s views are better informed and more on target. I think perhaps Coulthard’s facts and impressions of IndyCar precede a few tiers of safety improvement.
The big concern should be not so much about speed at Indianapolis, but rather what happens at tracks such as Kentucky where they raced just a few weeks ago. It generally has the same sort of risk factors as at Las Vegas, and the same sort of nervous feelings among the drivers about pack racing. But nothing terrible happened in that race, so you never heard a peep about it, nor did you here the range of oh-so-clear views about what must be attended to. This has been going on for years with nary a peep except among those who either participate or follow it closely enough to see the pattern of where pack racing does and does not occur. The only pre-crash consequence was IndyCar mandating the shrouding of the new cars’ rear wheels, and that will prove to be a productive safety accomplishment that’s a whole lot larger than nothing. The tragedy is that they couldn’t have gone just a measly one more race without the horrible happening. Any silver linings will be if they take steps to minimize pack racing itself rather than only a car design that minimizes the dangers of it.
> But as for the medicine and physics, i don’t know. A friend, now long gone,
> quit what we call the General Medical Council in disgust at lack of science.
> He was gofer for Rosalind Franklin as a student. You need a combination
> of hard science and grass roots and raw politick to get things moving,
> however my cynical opinion is that the pharma lobby has hijacked too
> much astroturf, certainly about where you are. My own contemporaries
> brain drained to the USA, mind, because of lack of research budget here.
> I uphold and applaud Joe’s science to safety view, but picking one’s way
> through without diversions or attracting interests like a bill before Congress,
> is an art.
I agree with your views about the status or pharma and others. A touchy subject to respond to here, as we are guests in Joe’s house and I gather he prefers that we avoid overtly political things. Thus, let me say only that I think things changed here in a huge way just about 30 years ago, and since then the U.S. has pretty much stopped doing very much of anything except dreaming up new tax reductions for those who least need them. We are only now facing the unavoidable consequences of failing over a long period of time to do proper feeding and maintenance of both our accomplishments and our spirit. Back when we were doing remarkable things, we didn’t go around chanting “We’re number 1”, but now some of us do that instead of lifting a finger to help us actually be number 1.
I spent 20+ years in the general vicinity of Atlanta. While there, I witnessed the last years of the era of a legendary Georgia politician who drove around in a huge long Lincoln car, painted purple with large orange block letters spelling “U.S. Senator”. He was famous for showing up unannounced at children’s ballgames and neighborhood BBQ’s where he would shake hands with everyone present while using his other hand to reach into his coat pocket and hand out a $20 bill to all who wanted one. Now, we can say that was improper, but at least he was bribing people with money he actually had. Since the political climate changed 30 years ago, they’ve been bribing voters with unfunded tax cuts, the cost of which they just add to the national debt. If I had to choose between the two forms of bribery, I favor the kind that features a visitor who arrives in a huge purple car and spends money he’s actually got.
Since the new form has taken over, well, the research money must come from somewhere, and since no one wants to pay taxes the corporations get their own agenda into the guts of it. Pharma and others have both the money to fund research themselves and their own stable of purchased politicians who will direct public money in the same direction.
The only good news I can report is that (a) such things do not completely carpet-bomb the field of useful research, which means we do have some engineers who can and will attend to the topics we should be sticking to here, and (b) there are finally some signs that perhaps the public at large has had enough of seeing our gov’t bought and paid for. The big lie comes from our so-called news media who always (and I do mean always) conflate the current line-of-scrimmage with the 50-yard-line (hope you at least minimally grok the American football field), all of which keeps the inherently centrist public confused about where the principled center really is. For decades, the media has convinced them that the scrimmage line between a partially-bought party and a fully-bought party is the principled center, when of course neither party’s stance is within shouting distance of the balanced center we mostly stuck to (more or less) back when things worked properly (more or less).
In any case, I agree with Joe about the science part, and I expect we will see yet another dose of having a tragedy make possible what was not thought very much about before.
> I am still taken aback, sleepless night, by the level of interest,
> concern and inquiry that arose from people who pretty much held no
> interest in racing. That’s only a straw poll of a dozen, but multiply that,
> and this is a big issue. Only the most level of heads, and the most
> qualified stand a chance to press through the thickets. yours – j
Well, I don’t know about the news media where you are, but over here if you want something to get attention from our so-called news media, what you need is either tragic events or bad behavior. Because that’s what they live for. If they don’t have either of those two varieties from local sources, they’ll do whatever it takes to import some from wherever they can find it.
Of all the things that have been written here about Indy Car safety, the one that jumps out at me for being an unaddressed issue is catch fencing. I’ve attended many Indy Car and CART races over the past thirty years, road courses and ovals alike. I can tell you for sure that a higher level of attention is given to driver and spectator safety at ovals because of the well-understood issues. If you’re in the stands at an oval, it’s a bit nerve wracking because of the fan exposure to flying cars and debris during an accident. Flying wheels have killed several fans (even people outside the racetrack) at ovals, due to the high kinetic energy they have during accidents. Wheel tethers have helped immensely reduce the risk of this.
The catch fencing has been beefed up at ovals to prevent larger and heavier NASCAR cars and trucks (c. 3500 lbs. vs Indy Car’s 1550 lbs.) from flying into the stands and creating carnage like the 1955 LeMans accident. While not an engineer, I’ve followed this sport and have seen the progression in safety over the years. The largest issue with catch fencing is that it stops cars (as intended) but does so at a very high g load on the driver. This seems to be a situation crying out for an engineering solution. Furthermore, large, strong poles are used to support and retain the catch fencing, which present a serious risk to the driver. Jeff Krosnoff’s 1996 fatal accident on the Toronto street circuit demonstrates the risk of these poles and the rapid deceleration of the car and driver caused by the fence/pole combination.
With Indy Car’s accident history with catch fencing (including Ryan Briscoe’s serious accident,) I think that this particular area is one that deserves serious scrutiny from the engineering field. In the past, I’ve heard suggestions of a hockey-style plexiglass ‘board’ that would allow the cars to slide along it rather than stop at high g loads. I assume that this was explored in the past and not adopted for some reason, either technical,financial, or for its impact on the ability of spectators to view the cars.
For that matter, much of these tracks don’t have spectator viewing areas on large portions of the outside of the track, so it might make as much sense to raise the wall height, incorporating the SAFER barrier technology, which would provide the cars with the ability to decelerate at lower (and safer) g levels. It is difficult to say whether this would have significantly changed the outcome of this accident but I would hope that this issue is addressed in the comprehensive safety review that is sure to follow this tragedy.
In reviewing the accident footage, especially the overhead view, it seems that Dan’s car was travelling at a significantly higher rate of speed than the cars in front of him as if he was unable to brake the car. His trajectory is also a straight line, rather than turning down toward the apron. In light of these two observations, I suspect that his right front tire was punctured by debris from the crash and he understeered straight into the wall.
The in-car footage that would show his steering angle hasn’t been shown, and frankly, I don’t think we all need to see his last seconds. I do think that when we have a report on what happened, we’ll see that his was merely along for the ride after hitting the debris from the initial accident that started the chain reaction.
Shaun F,
I suggest that we leave analysis to people who have facts.
Hi RShack,
wow! Okay, on the political thing, i simply phase out because we’re the last of our family who live this side. Atlanta was home town to a cousin for some 30 or so. Well, at least I hope nixed the Atlantic Divide side of that, except for asking why does everyone retire to Florida? (*0) 🙂
I can’t find Webber’s comments on Autosport, ‘fraid. I don’t subscribe. Local library has it. (look up City Cash, it’s really called that, the trust which keeps that together but our Square Mile does have more culture than spivvy traders in shiny suits*1) Okay, think i found it, not there *2. I rate MW’s views.
Since i learned how Wheldon was taken, i do think basic car safety is not to blame, so much as terrible luck and the close pack. The HANS device came to F1 from racing your side, but you can’t litigate with structural safety against flying through the air and a direct head blow.
The general / MSM / media here are just the same. See the Daily Mail. Which is like The Inquirer (*3) with undergrad journalism / media studies attitude. I’m doing this out of order, but incidentally i do kinda grok a football game in a kind of Heinlein / PK Dick / meeting of São Paulo and a LA riot kind of way. Apparently, England stole this guy called Gilliam, and he has been informing us . .
I think the pharma lot are on a quest to invent Soma. I have some good anecdotal evidence for this. I am prety sure Rupert Murdoch is behind it, so we actually buy the political bios Random House print in hardback . . (*5)
*0: don’t diss them so much, shiny suits are now banned on safety grounds. I got picked off with a baseball bat for – some part of it – wearing a silk jacket and walking back from a party. Would have been okay, but wasn’t a spivvy trader . .
*1: The real finance center is a independent state, only one left, so we do have a clue how states work elsewhere . .
*2: I use a new meta search engine called DuckDuckGo, it’s USP is not to track you. I have no idea how they got around the legal constraints, but they seem genuine. So, “Webber + Wheldon” got me straight to the quotes nicely, i think.
*3: Somewhat famously, i do keep mentioning him, but he writes good stories, Neiderhoffer claimed to only read The Inquirer whilst he was trading. For Soros . .
*4: Done and Done. Sarasota.
*6: Obviously, it’s all a conspiracy!
*^n^power of BS, i actually work to try to find a way adverts don’t have a chance to sway editorial. Not been out much for a couple decades!
p.s. for what it’s worth, deep into watching “Madagascar” to ‘suage the realism. We need more light, all meanings of light.
Joe, I reckon you got some guys on here who oughta have their own blogs.
There must be an audience for their stuff out there somewhere…
As always Joe has just about put the whole sad affair into perspective.
He Dan, was not the cause of the accident, he and others were innocent parties. Dan was just very unlucky to have lost his life, when you consider all the similar incidents in all forms of racing both four and two wheels, it has got significantly safer over the last ten years. Having said that we have to accept that there is always the possibility of a driver or rider losing his or her life. I do a lot of karting no roll bars seat belts, but that does not stop me, I just don’t think about it, I knew Dan well, he would have thought the same.
Let us all just join in with all the well wishers and give the family our support. It was not anybodies fault!!! Racing is always going to have a risk element, like football cricket horse racing et all.
Thank you Joe for wise words well said. It is not often I agree with you, but sincerely and without having read your subsequent musings I agree with you completely.
I apologise for the late posting here of my sentiment, however I am deeply saddened to hear of the passing Dan Wheldon’s death. His excellent talent and desire to entertain us the fans of his sport have ended with his ultimate sacrifice, and for all that he has given I will remain eternally grateful.
Yours,
Dan H
Ted the Mechanic,
I was out of order. Sorry to all. – j