Scrapping engine rules

There are some stories floating about today which suggest that the new engine regulations in 2014 will be scrapped. These come from a journalist who is famously known to parrot everything Bernie Ecclestone says without ever questioning it.

The story raises a number of interesting points. At the moment, Bernie Ecclestone does not make the rules in Formula 1. The right to do that belongs to the FIA. Ecclestone would like to be in a position to write the rules, but thus far he has only leased the commercial rights to the sport. If the FIA gives up its right to create and police the rules, the federation will become completely irrelevant to the sport and F1 will become entirely self-sufficient. It is possible that the federation might choose to sell those rights, but this would stir up a great deal of trouble amongst the membership because F1 offers the FIA the highest visibility in any of its activities, as can be seen from the fact that the post-qualifying background is all about the FIA’s road safety campaigns. Selling control of the sport would be akin to selling the family silver.

Former FIA President Max Mosley did that somewhat when he let Ecclestone have the commercial rights for a century, for what was a nominal sum of money. The purpose of that deal was to cement the FIA’s right to control the sport and for that right to be recognised by others and it provided sufficient finance to set up a foundation to do good works. That might not be seen to have been sufficient cash nowadays, but at the time it seemed like a lot of money. There is no question that current FIA President Jean Todt wants to get some more money from F1 – which is only sensible – but it would be a wildly radical step for him to sell the right to make the rules. Todt has not shown much desire to do anything radical in the course of his presidency, preferring to avoid conflict where possible and to make changes gradually. He has elections coming up a year from now and the last thing he needs at the moment is controversy.

The second point worth considering is that at least three motor manufacturers (and one independent operation) have invested hundreds of millions in designing engines for the new rules. They are not going to want to throw this money away, and while they might worry that they do not have as good engines as their rivals, they all know that the new regulations are what the car industry wants to see from F1. Ecclestone is focussed on the commercial side of the sport. He makes money, but the longterm future of the sport is not really served by maintaining engines that have no relevance in terms of modern technology, and that cannot be significantly developed. Although car manufacturers may gripe at the costs involved, they also know that the new rules should lead to technology that will be useful for the industry – and development that will outstrip the normal plodding pace of the automobile industry. The fastest ways to develop new automotive technologies are by going to war or by getting involved in motor racing and, with cost-effectiveness a vital element in the modern automotive world, manufacturers want new ideas and engineers who will make them happen. There is a clear argument that other manufacturers might become involved in F1 once they see that sort of things being developed. There are also suggestions that some of them are standing back until the management of the sport is changed, although no-one is ever going to say that out loud.

For the F1 teams, there are obviously some who think that the new engines will be too expensive. These teams might be accused of having a lack of imagination. When a new formula is created, there are opportunities as well. Teams that are competitive or close to being competitive, have the opportunity to go out there and convince car companies that F1 is the right place to develop their future powertrains. Thus, the likes of McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus, Sauber, Williams and Force India should really be beating a path to one car manufacturer after another, explaining the value of the future F1 and trying to get manufacturer deals of their own, rather than sitting in queues as customers of Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault. There are still plenty of car manufacturers in the world and they are all constantly investing in new technology and so it is down to the teams to sell themselves and the sport. This is the pattern that has been seen over and over in the history of F1 and it was what Bernie Ecclestone tried to do with Alfa Romeo when he was a team owner. One thing that is guaranteed is that, if the old rules are maintained, there will be no new car manufacturers in F1.

New manufacturers will bring more money to the sport and, of course, things would be a lot better for all concerned if more than half the money generated were not being handed over to men in suits with no interetst, let alone passion for the sport – beyond its money-generating potential. The man who put this structure together is therefore perhaps not the right man to preach on the subject of needing to keep down costs. If the money coming into the sport was actually staying in the sport, then no-one would have any problems.

Good for Bernie for having the nous to do such deals, but making yourself and your pals rich does not mean that you will be remembered fondly by those who love the sport and feel it is being damaged by such exploitation.

The other element that needs to be considered by the automotive industry is the fact that the supply of engineers in the western world is drying up. A recent report by Britain’s Royal Academy of Engineering says that the UK needs to increase the number of science, technology, engineering and maths graduates by as much as 50 percent if the country is to avoid slipping down the international innovation league tables. The problem is the same across Europe. In the UK some 23,000 engineers are graduating every year. But India is producing eight times that number, and China 20 times as many. One thing that would help European automobile manufacturers is a little bit more inspiration for youngsters.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s there were millions of children inspired by NASA’s space programme and by Concorde. These days there are no such thrilling projects and a ground-breaking relevant Formula 1 World Championship would be a good way to improve that situation. Plodding along using the existing machinery may help the Formula One group produce solid profits, but there is always the chance that a more ambitious approach would produce better results.

It all boils down to the same old discussion about sport versus entertainment. F1 has been chasing the entertainment route for more than 20 years and has done very well. But the signs are that such success is in the past, because the younger generations are not inspired by (or even vaguely interested in) Formula 1, which means that the business needs a rethink and going back to its roots might be a better way to move forward, while at the same time embracing new technologies to engage with fans around the world.

164 thoughts on “Scrapping engine rules

      1. F1 under 16s 8% – World cup Football 10%
        F1 16 to 34 21% – World cup Football 22%

        F1 65+ 21% – World cup Football 24%

          1. This has been an on-going issue for some time now. All understandable, though not entirely true and as widespread an epidemic that it’s made out to be, by some. Case in point, F1QA – Social Network user statistics, as follows:

            18% female
            82% male

            13-17 = 57.5%
            18-24 = 20.7%
            25-34 = 6.5%
            45-54 = 4.7%
            55-64 = 1.1%
            65+ = 0.9%

            Fact remains, a working relationship with F1QA has been re-buffed by nearly every F1 principal/ stakeholder since our inception. Truth of the matter is, there is nothing wrong with the sport only with those who run and manage it.

        1. A recent study suggested that kids these days are now more interested in social media than illegal drugs! What’s the world coming to?!

          1. Now that is disturbing. Unless “social media” is the name of the latest designer drug of choice, in which case it’s reassuring and adorable.

        2. I read a piece a year or so ago (I believe it was in the N.Y. Times) that the NFL was losing it’s market share in the youth market to people playing Madden Football on X-Boxes and Play Stations. Probably why they (NFL) often package rock concerts and fireworks with their games now.

    1. The GP’s I’ve been to this year, I’ve not seen many kids or younger people when compared to Premier League football. (Anecdotal I know). But its not hard see why kids may not be at the races when the prices to give them a decent view are hundreds of £’s per race.

      This when I’ve never seen the stadium are at Barcelona as empty as it was this year (not shown by FOM TV).

      Joe’s right – nearly all F1 could easily be addressed IF ” more than half the money generated were not being handed over to men in suits with no interetst, let alone passion for the sport – beyond its money-generating potential.”

      Let’s see what happens in Munich eh?

    2. Let’s generalize a little bit… Young people like twitter and facebook. Their idea of sport is Wii-fit. Formula 1 is perceived as boring; the ROI for for watching a race that goes on for one and a half hours is non-existent.

      I’ve followed F1 one since I was a kid, can still remember the black and white newspaper pictures of Niki Lauda in hospital after his horrendous crash on the Nurburgring.

      Since then F1 changed from an exiting, sexy and decidedly dangerous circus to a culled, commercialised and sterile broadway production. Technically any modern roadcar is more advanced than an F1 car – bar the use of carbon fiber and the performance.

      It pains me to say, but F1 is becoming more and more irrellevant in this day and age. Unless there’s a radical change that makes people sit up and notice again. And no, I’m not talking about engine sounds

      1. I don’t think that is quite right Henk. I have 3 kids of my own and it’s not that they find sport boring, it’s more that they expect to participate rather than observe. Mind take part in ballet, football, martial arts, swimming, tennis etc etc. As you point out, Twitter, Facebook and Wii are all avenues in which young people get involved and are active.

        I must agree with you on the sterile part. We all enjoy and crave the personal drama that is so sparse these days that we go completely overboard when there is some.

      2. You know, talk about sterility all you want, I don’t need to watch another race driver receiving an emergency tracheotomy trackside while they pull up the curtain to hide impending death. I don’t deny the sport is still dangerous, but to think it’s sterile due to a lack of fires and bodybags is a very Hemingwayan worldview.

        One could ask why my 9 year old is happier pretending he is Ken Block than Fernando Alonso, despite my never watching X-anything, and watching every F1 race of every season since the mid-nineties. That perhaps is evidence of the lack of relative excitement, more than fires. (Cartoons won’t do it either – “very lame”, says my 9-year old…)

        Beyond that, I agree that the idea that a road car is more advanced – today road cars are increasingly about driver aids. I can imagine a time fork back in 1992 to an alternate universe where Williams is allowed to continue to innovate freely, and today the drivers would be sitting in the pit garages behind iPad displays pushing the occasional button as they watched their car whoosh around the track. And that is why modern F1 cars are in some ways less advanced than road cars – because we wanted to see human skill and human error in play, back in 1992. (I don’t think that’s changed yet, either.)

        So in another 15 years, with driverless cars being all the rage, and Bernie long dead, F1 will simply cease to matter altogether. Because individuals driving around in a ton of metal each will seem ludicrous to our grandchildren. They will be competing in ways unimaginable to us today. Us old fogies will all get together at the Laguna Seca historic weekend and long for the days when people wanted to get into streamlined carbon fiber husks and get across the finish line first.

        I still watch every race and follow these blogs like an addict. Despite lack of action and long stretches of ‘nothingness’. So it can’t be as bad as we continually whinge on about.

        1. My fear(?) is that the long, long term future of F1 is virtual with linked simulators. One big networked F1 2012 game broadcast over the net. No danger, and minimised environmental cost.

          F1 teams (and others) now put considerable cash into simulator development. See the segment of the BBC Singapore coverage. I admit I fast forwarded though that bit, as I have no need to watch engineers embarass themselves on F1 games. I can do that myself. 🙂

          Please note, I’m not advocating this as a future, but if we don’t recognise the way the world is going, then this may me forced upon motor racing.

          When I’ve voiced this possibility to F1 fans, they look at me as if I’ve lost my marbles. I really can’t make up my mind whether or not they’re right 😉

    3. I agree with MistralMike and others above – if there is (and I don’t for a moment believe there is, based on previous form of BE’s remarks to the press) a possibility that BE might get his way on scrapping the new engine formula it would beggar belief taking into account the current debate on costs savings amongst the teams FIA et al.

      Of course it’s just the usual cobblers that BE finds amusing but which any decent PR company, normally employed by an organisation like F1, would knock the head to prevent said head (acting head) making himself look foolish and unprofessional. Say what you mean Mr E, less of the silly games please.

      More argument for a change at the top – any wonder why fans get so cheesed off?

    1. Who said that Luca does not want them? If Ferrari can build great sportscars with fancy big engines, the company is quite capable of building great sports cars with small engines, in fact in the long term that is a better choice because Ferrari will remain relevant, rather than being gas-guzzling monsters that only rich people with gold chains want to drive. My feeling is that any opposition to the new engines from Ferrari is simply because Ferrari is worried that it might not be able to compete with the other new generation F1 engines.

      1. Thanks for clarifying Jo – I had heard recent reports about Luca wingeing saying that he didn’t like the sound of them.

      2. So long as Ferrari is dedicated to building no more than 5,000 cars per year, they will eternally be dedicated to a customer base of “rich people with gold chains”.

        Those buyers don’t care if a Ferrari is a gas guzzler. Ferrari road cars are stupidly expensive. Compared to most of their competition, they are a terrible value for money.

        Given that Ferrari clearly doesn’t want to expand past 5,000 units per year, a 1.6 liter turbo has absolutely no relevance to their product line. It’s easy to see why they would be loathe to spend tens, if not hundreds of millions developing an engine they’ll never, ever use.

        1. Random

          Ferrari built 7,200 cars last year, a 9.5% increase on 2010 (2011 finacial results)

          See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19547691 for more information.

          The article also discusses “…broader range of cars launched in recent years”

          and

          “… enjoyed strong sales growth in new markets in Asia – China in particular, and in Russia, the Middle East, and South America”.

          and

          “….the F12berlinetta, goes on sale this month and is expected to drive sales further”

          Sure, all of these cars are still V-8 and V-12 engined monsters, but if Ferrari are to continue this sales growth they need to offer alternatives to the cars for “…rich people with gold chains”.

          Martin

          1. Fair enough, but when compared to major automotive model lines, 5,000 or 7,200 are equally boutique. Also consider that that those sales figures aren’t even for a single model line, they represent total sales across all Ferrari’s model lines. Ferrari’s best selling model sells far less than 1% the volume of many leading consumer road car models.

            Unless Ferrari want to dramatically increase their road car sales figures, it’s hard to see them having a place for a 1.6 liter turbo. Ferrari has made no indication that they want to dramatically increase the number of vehicles they make each year. Were they to desire it, there’s little doubt that they could quickly ramp up to making 10 or 20 times as many cars as they do today. One expects they believe to do so would diminish the brand.

            Perhaps were Ferrari sold to a private equity firm like CVC, they might have use for a 1.6 liter engine. Under the current management, spreading Ferrari into the larger consumer space seems terribly unlikely.

        2. Well, but Ferrari is owned by FIAT, and i guess that for them it is a very relevant and interesting technology.

        3. The future of f1 is not in the size of the engine, or the rpm, its in developing ERS, turbo compounding, etc. It’s about squeezing performance out of each drop of fuel. Now imagine your next 2017 Audi has a Williams flybrid in the trunk. As Vettel would say “that’s what I’m talking about!”

      3. Absolutely spot on and THAT is highly relevant today.

        I’m way way away from supercar ownership but I am fortunate enough that my car budget is in the £35k-£40k range. With that I can just about afford a lovely 1 year old Jaguar XK. I’d just love one, they look fantastic and the cabin is a delightful space to be in. However with 5 litre petrol engines there’s no way I can afford to drive the bloody thing, so I’ll probably go for another 2 litre diesel 5 series and the frugal 57mpg

        1. I do not wish to be rude, but is not a car budget to include fuel cost? Just saying. Maybe a good future tech target for F1 ? New propulsion system, or fuel ?

    2. The planned 2014 engine is a 1.6 liter turbo. A tiny little engine. That spec doesn’t mesh at all with the needs of Ferrari’s fleet, or for that matter, most of Mercedes’ fleet. It does mesh somewhat with the needs of Renault, but only somewhat.

      On paper, a 1.6 liter turbo may have slightly more relevance to road cars than the current engine, but lets be honest. No F1 engines for the past 30 years have had much in common with general road car needs. Given that a primary specification of the 2014 motor is a very road-car unfriendly 15,000 RPM’s, the knock-on effect to road car development could be severely limited. That stand-out specification could easily have a knock-on effects throughout the design, resulting in motors with little more relevance to road cars than the current engines.

      If the true desire is to have some relevance to road car development, the sport should consider allowing only homologized engines that have actually shipped in a significant number of road vehicles – only that could guarantee significant cross development.

        1. You’re right, of course. It is homologated.

          No, I’m not in favor of it either, but if road-car relevance is the primary concern, there is no better way.

          1. I don’t agree that the actual engines planned for F1 need to be used in road cars, even in modified form, for the technology to be road-relevant. Using relatively small capacity, turbo-driven engines is far more likely to develop technology for future road-engines (also smaller capacity, turbo-driven) than V8’s.

            It might just be optics, but certainly here in NA these type of engines are already becoming much more popular – and a selling point in road cars.

            1. Yes, but not at 15,000 RPM’s.

              F1 engines are designed to squeeze ever drop of theoretical power out of a given specification. The rev limit is a very important specification.

              Allowing a rev limit twice that of most high performance road cars has a good chance of focusing overall engine design into areas completely antithetical to that of road car engines.

              I agree that a smaller engine may provide better optics, but at what cost? Certainly tens of millions have already been spent designing these new motors, but just as certainly it will take tens of millions more before they’re ready and even more during the first year or two of production. More again for those manufacturers that don’t get their sums right and are forced to play catch up.

              Even at this late date, it is beyond question that retaining the current engines will be hugely cheaper. Not that cost containment is Bernie’s goal. In fact, he almost certainly has a much different agenda. All the same, it doesn’t mean he’s wrong about the costs.

        2. Homologation isn’t a brilliant idea in WRC, Touring cars or elsewhere either. It least to cheating and also to homolgation specials. These might be fun for a while, but usually they kill the categories off.

      1. Bernie would fight tooth and nail to keeping the engines spinning at 15k, because that’s where a good chunk of their noise comes from.

        Of course, Bernie probably hasn’t listened to the screaming cacophony of that electromagical Toyota hybrid LMP car.

      2. Ford have just introduced a 1 litre engine in their larger cars, VW have a 1.2 in their range that is more than big enough for the Golf. These are cars that in the past you’d be looking at 2 litre plus for the higher end versions. A 1.6 is a nice place in the middle between the smaller engines for normal cars and the bottom end of the sports car market. You may well find that in not many years most performance cars have engines under 2 litres that are turbo and supercharged.

      3. Hi

        My understanding is a lot of the ford vtech technology originated in f1, i think it was the low friction stuff, and didn’t pugeot use a the technoloy from the gearbox they ran in the Mclaren F1 car and transpose into their road cars. Also don’t nissan use in all there cars use a variation of the traction control that was used on the Renault F1 cars and in the nismo race series.

        The engines and technology don’t have to by identical that used on normal cars, but relevant so those innovations can be transposed accross. Makes a lot of sense to me.

      4. Every car company is downsizing nowadays. Even Ferrari. The conceived Maserati Quattroporte will receive a Ferrari V6 engine. Thats a beginning at least imo. And no F1 V6 turbo will rev up to 15.000 all the time. There is no need in doing so because of the efficiency formula and there would be no extra power. If you look at a diagramme, the power curve rises up to 12.000 and remains flat then. We will see 15.000 in qualifying maybe, but in race between 10.500 und 13.000 rpm.

        1. Dont agree, MM. There are two inter-related factors that determine engine output: torque and horsepower. Torque is essentially the instantaneous force pushing the piston down and trying to rotate the crankshaft. Horsepower is essentially the integral of torque over time; the faster the engine spins at a given torque the more horsepower is developed (and, conversely, torque is the derivative of horsepower). The major increases in horsepower that we have seen in F1 engines in the recent past have been from increased RPM and this increase was possible because of the reduction of engine friction. Engine makers have hugely reduced the internal friction component of race engines and allowed the enormous increase in revs. If you recall, before the 18,000 RPM engine limit engines were approaching 21,000 RPM. This was possible also because the bore was increased and the stroke decreased. The decrease in stroke reduced piston speed and hence g loading and allowed the engines to stay together.

          Having said all this, the engines will run at maximum RPM because that is where maximum power is. I don’t know which diagrams you are referring to, but I haven’t seen any of the engine makers release such data.

          1. According the efficiency rules of 2014, between 10.5 and 15 kRpm, the fuel-flow must not exceed 100 kg/h (27.8 g/s), which means that given a constant mechanical efficiency of the engine, the power will be constant through that span, while torque will fall off. The diagramme I have seen shows an engine horse power curve which is flat from 10.500 upwards and a torque curve which starts to descend from 350 at 10.500 to app. 250 at 15.000. The question is of course which boost will be used (0,5 up to 1,0?). Any way, the gain in increasing the rpm will be small:
            344 ft.lbs/ tq @ 10500rpm 100kg/hr limit .32BSFC abs/kpa 212 or 1.1bar = 689hp
            242 ft.lbs/ tq @ 15000rpm 100kg/hr limit .32BSFC abs/kpa 159 or 0.6bar = 691hp
            So, of course the engines will rev up to 15.000, but for sure not all the time.

      5. The F1 and probably the LMS versions of the new engine will be “racing” designed, ie with as little moving mass as possible and almost no flywheel.
        Whereas road going versions which will eventually appear in GT class cars and high spec tourers will be down-specced have fly wheels and different engine management.

        However it brings engines back into the development arena again. Something which has been missing for many years. Variable valve control needs to be used.
        Fuel economy is an anathema to some fans, but it means that the car can carry less fuel, hence be lighter. This helps in all areas, acceleration, cornering braking and of course sprung mass. It means that the car can have its weight put where the designer wants it.

        These engines are designed with energy recovery in mind and will take both turbos and superchargers, in fact the regs as currently written will allow the turbo to be electrically powered. As battery technology evolves driven largely by KERS/ERS it will become ever more relevant to road cars.

  1. Thank you! It’s refreshing to read an intelligent analysis after the kneejerk reaction to Bernie’s comments.

    1. Glad someone mentioned that project. It’s what immediately came to my mind when thinking of current British engineering which is exciting.

      Its been covered on the BBC a bit and they seem to be doing school tours but it could do with a bit more push behind it.

      At least the gov’t gave them the jet engine off the Eurofighter project..

      F1 in schools would be nice to see expanded by the FIA if they get more money. See if they can do some electric endurance racing or something.

  2. I continue to believe that the whole Mercedes thing is just an attempt to push McLaren to increase its offer.

    Similarly, I tend to think that the rumours that McLaren has approached Sergio Perez are a message to Hamilton that he is not the only game in town and he needs to be careful not to end up getting a hefty elbow from McLaren for being silly.

  3. Red Bull with infinity engines (aka Nissan) would make sense. They already have a commercial partnership in place, and somewhat usefully Nissan are pretty handy at developing turbo charged engines.

    1. Nissan and Renault are in effect one company so it makes sense to build one engine and have it used by multiple brands. This is what happens in the car world, so why not in F1?

    2. Exent to which the “platform” is a similar in road cars is not often pointed out. Piech at VW was a early fan. Want a Bentley Turbo without the turbo and bling, get a Phaeton. But also backfires, Ford put too many standard dash parts in Jagger for a while. Carlos Ghosen, Renault’s chief fairly well saved both Renault and Nissan by banging their heads together. The problem they have right now is it’s tough being #3 auto maker. (VW then Toyota on volume last I looked) because you have vast scale, and that’s too easily a efficiency multiplier that could become a inefficiency multiplier. But take any of the management of those companies and you have some serious talent right now. It’s worth looking about for articles on Marchionne of Fiat Chrysler lately, he seems to be hero in Detroit, lambasted in Italy.

      The dynamics and business configurations make very interesting reading. Sorry no links, but peruse The Economist for starters. I’d also say that the sheer pace at which senior management is acting at any of the big names hints at whether they will pay attention to F1 at all. I think they have all learned to be absolutely fearful of stagnation, and maybe F1 is too slow to innovate for their tastes.

      Yup, I’m saying F1 is too slow to adapt for it to be fancied by all the big auto makers. They’ve almost all been in sink or swim mode for a long time, not least who have been at the top. Product iteration is not slackening, and the diesel march of progress alone is a great example. If external factors such as oil prices affected your sales, you’d be paranoid also (moment to suggest Only The Paranoid Survive by Andy Grove, who saved INtel’s bacon, as a superb read) to the extent they do, small good engines cannot be ignored. Nor diesel. Electric is less appealing, I’ve read estimates of the cost of re-working the supply grid for recharging current electric motors and the numbers thrown up would nail economies to the basement floorboards. Hybrid and regenerative, soon to show up where they count, in haulage and heavy vehicles.

      In short, I’d say it’s a very good time for F1 to shake up the regulations. If M. Todt is doing anything, I bet he is talking to people about this. F1 needs relevancy in a fast changing age. (that’s exacerbated by so many factors from ecological rules and lobbies to the economy, gas prices, the fact that efficiencies also lead to occasional hard limits on margins, th source of what I suggested could be a “inefficiency multiplier” etc.) Forget at your perilm also, the attraction for engineering talent. Outwardly at least, it’s been a aero dominated sport for a bit long I’d reckon, if I were a engine man. It seems somehow contradictory that fans of F1 might be against change!

      Also, just for fun, if you watch AUDI’s freely available and very good (allowing the bias) documentary “24 Hours Of Truth”, about their Le Man winners, they made a practically silent diesel, and the noises from the drive train were still very cool, in fact not far off how hollywood made up sounds for futuristic cars. The older fans who have thought it not macho to wear earplugs to the races may have difficulty hearing that, but undamaged younger ears will have no problem at all.

      1. John,

        I’d agree that the mainstream car industry is embracing technologies that not yet appeared on most F1 teams’ horizon.

        As a driver of performance for things like MGU’s and ennegry storage/battery technology, my hope is that F1 can contribute with the 2014 regs.

        LMP’s already contribute, but their profile (even for Audi’s Le Mans win) is nothing like F1 for most punter.

        A good friend of mine from the aerospace industry always dismisses F1 as a branch of the advertising industry, Any thought on that?

        1. You mention the Audi R18 and its motor — why aren’t diesel hybrids being used in F1? Has this been considered? The noise (or lack of) that the R18 produces is quite amazing. Yes, it sounds like the future. I’m willing the bet that younger generations are going to be much more attracted to that than they will be to loud dinosaur motors. Loud motors are fun and all, but why can’t it remain in the past and be appreciated for what it was? F1 should be about incredible, modern technology that is relevant to what people use on a daily basis, or at least what people will use at some point in the future. I don’t see this happening, and I don’t think a loud, screaming motor has anything to do with what people will ever use at any time in the future.

          Bernie and Luca are entertaining people at times, but bad for the sport. Quite simply, they are too old and have not adapted to modern times very well. It’s really a shame that their voices have so much say-so in F1 as they do not seem to understand young people at all. If they did, F1 would not be decades behind in nearly every way possible. They are killing F1. But, this is story of politics as a whole.

  4. Pretty simple really.
    I go to the AGP to be entertained by the pagaentry and if the all important component of noise is seriously reduced, regardless of the speed of the cars and all the goody-goody engineering, I shall go elsewhere.
    F1 is in the entertainment business, isn’t it?

    1. For people like you it clearly is… but there are others who have a different opinion. In addition to that I am quite sure that you would not even notice the difference in noise or speed.

      1. Speed, probably not. Noise, quite likely. Been watching old F1 season. The Turbos I hated. The V10s I loved. The V12s were interesting and the current V8s less so. The V6s will, I think, be horrible for the people who remember the V10s.

          1. I’d like to see diesels, hybrids, turbos, and if anyone is crazy enough, be nice to hear a V12 again. I can’t level with this recent argument over the sound of engines on the circuit, after the variety of song was regulated to a single note. It is so preposterous, in context of very recent history, I could only take it as a red herring argument. Bernie is a master at sleight of hand, but that one wore thin very quickly.

            1. Ah, I remember standing at the old Club corner at Silverstone and closing my eyes just to listen as Mr Mansell drove a V12 ferrari on a qualifying lap.

              Small boys, jumpers for goalposts.. isn’t it! Marvellous! 😉

              1. Argh, almost misty eyes, RMM! But if you allow there’s more than one way to skin a cat, we’ve only shot ourselves in the foot by restricting the variety. (I am secretly entered into the very publicity shy world championship for mixing metaphors) and I have thought that might be that by limiting other engineering growth, which I believe just in terms of attention and resources helped focus time, talent and budget on safety, was essential to keeping the sport going for a while. Now I think we really have wonderfully safe cars (and maybe too safe, the way some park them dangerously at high speed) we could go back to a more fun mix for the designers.

                Yeah, I used to get put in goal always, cos a lanky lad, and everyone was always trying to move the jumpers – thanks for the big grin across my face now, they probably have the elf and safety out if you graze your knee, these days, free article in the Daily Wail thrown in . . 🙂

              2. That corner has fond memories for me too, before it was diluted by inserting Vale, it could be taken with considerable gusto. Think I put the story on my old blog. However for me it will be Mansell at Brands into druids whilst dodging the mobile chicanes.

                New 2013 rules limit the number of team members present to 60 except for just before and after the race start.

    2. Lezza, just try listening to the noise of that Toyota LMP1 car (for example), as Andrew Byrant writes above, while its surely different, its quite a spectacle in itself.
      And I have seen reports from several people who either heard the engines or at least a simulation of their sound and while quite different, it was not much less noisy nor a horrible engine tone.
      If you mind change, then you are right to go look elsewhere. But if you like noise and exiting (motorsport) technology its a step in the right direction.

      1. I should have read down the page first. That’s what I agree with, that these LMP cars are really interesting in every way. They sound very interesting. If you hear a drive train above the engine, you can hear gear shifts, and get a completely different sense of the driving. The little boy in me that once was smitten by F1 and all the tech we’ve had, actually came back to pay attention to LMP this year. (Now I want to know what happened to my Airfix Porsche LMP model!)

        Young boys have their own acute sense of what is cool, and I doubt the younger me would have been attracted to a sport being dangled about and choked by old man Bernie. LMP also has one edge over F1: it’s more driving and less primadonna-esque moaning and politics. See no suspiciously oleaginous middle aged playboys, for one thing. Same time, you need to be almost as dedicated as Joe to follow the season, something I have found increasingly incompatible with family life, which must not help revenue from those old enough to earn the money to go to races, and when it comes to imagining being a kid again, I think I’d have been less enthralled by a 20 race season. There’s a selling point in the scarcity of top entertainment. In the world where any young lad can find entertainment on demand, a big and rarer event must hold some additional cachet. (On top, when you have families at the limit of their budget just to turn up, I think that diminishes the social atmosphere somewhat at the race) I fear F1 is not any longer excuding the impression it’s hard core or kind of a real man’s sport. I’m not talking about safety, which is a blessing compared with the human tragedies of when I was little, but that could also have been taken too far. That’d segue into the whole “what tracks could we have back” argument, so stopping there.

  5. Fantastic article, Joe; in depth and insightful as always. I’d love to see more engine manufacturers in F1, with more freedom to develop new approaches to the problem of obtaining maximum power from a given quantity of fuel, without having to build too many clones of each other’s powerplants.

    Interesting comment above about Bloodhound SSC – it visited my daughter’s engineering college a few months back and really inspired her, but most kids have no idea what it’s about. There’s a sort of “so what” factor about these sort of challenges. Some of this has to be down to the way science is taught in schools – following too much of a prescribed curriculum instead of doing really forward-thinking and inspirational stuff.

  6. One of the desires to keep the old engines I thought was the noise. It is apparently something the track-side fans desire.
    Am I alone in preferring the sound at other motorsports (such as Touring cars or bike racing) where I can talk to whoever I visited the event with? A big part of motorsport wityh me is the commentary feed and talking about the event with whoever I am experiencing it with and if I can’t hear because my ears were distorting (as they were at SPA this year even with ear plugs in) then the noise takes away the main enjoyment from me.
    On a side note I really struggle to see how you can inspire the next generation with F1 while it is so detached from anything else the next generation actually experience. I remember as a child preferring Le Mans and Touring cars simply because it looked like something real, something I could access, something I had experienced, whereas I just could not see the point of F1 because it used “silly looking cars”. Of course I got better but that was only because I had family and friend who were enthusiastic supporters.
    That all said I follow F1 because it is the pinnacle of motorsport attracting the best engineers and drivers not because of any specific set of rules or car design. If you gave these people Puntos to race it would still be just as enthralling…

    1. On the other hand the current state of F1 vs WEC means that LMP cars offer so much more technical freedom, this equates (for me) into something which is much more interesting from an engineeing point of view.

    2. Well here is my 2 cents , loved the sound of the pack at the start / first lap of F5000 [Chev V8`s] at Brands Hatch!! Sanding at hairpin. Disliked sound and got headache even when ear plugs installed watching INDY DFV`s on street circuit , Vancouver BC Canada .Sound is a very personal thing, The variety of sounds we were exposed to in parking areas of motorcycle race meets late 50`s / 60`s were smashing!

  7. “things would be a lot better for all concerned if more than half the money generated were not being handed over to men in suits with no interest, let alone passion for the sport ”

    Agreed, although it’s 43% that goes to the men in suits.

    1. It is more than that. Because money from Allsport does not go into pot but is channelled through the Beta Group to The relevant Topco

      1. It’s time to do a simple split. 60:10:30. Of gross, over the whole thing. The ten going to reserve funds, emergency bridging loans, if a team is genuinely in a temporary glitch, and maybe to ideas the teams combined with drivers’ clubs and circuits work out will make the sport interesting. Anyhow, off the top of my head, a clear double income for the teams over management is not insulting, and I’d like something in reserve for rainy days or development of the sport, or maybe rejuvenating some tracks that would benefit everyone from their history. Bernie’s done such a great job of pitting new tracks as a surplus so he can be assured of his high fees and keep playing one against the other, I think that must stop, because it’s solely money logic. 30% is the top end of nice margins for any business. I’d say you need to keep it at the higher end, just because hopefully one day someone who cares more than CVC et.al. has to buy them out.

        1. Yes, but because entities like CVC are leveraged, their income gets more favourable tax treatment. I think we should look at that also, despite it is a very broad question why some people should own and control any business whilst so indebted, and yet gain tax breaks as a result, discounting the interest payments. Simply speaking, even a straight gross spilt does not even out the distribution. That’s more a “sort out the whole business world” argument, than just F1, but it distorts the playing field for sure. Consider it this way, when F1 really got going, post war, there were vastly less business loopholes, and a lot more daring men prepared to spend their own cash direct to attain glory. I’m not nostalgic for that age, just wary the whole world has regulated itself out of a chance at genuine (human, social) profit. The slow death of small business (the kind including race teams of past) is exactly where regulation and rules and tombstone volumes of law and lack of common sense has had the greatest deleterious effect.

  8. Dear Mr Saward,

    I always enjoy your articles but I thought “Scrapping engine rules” really excellent and certainly made me think about the future of F1.

    Many thanks.

  9. Things have already changed in F1 whilst attention was being misdirected by the Hamilton move, the new 2013 regs were published, without a CA. I mean by that, the 2013 regs are not formed in accordance with a CA, but instead, in accordance with “the Code”. There are several anomalies which smack of haste to publish. (Though in a way, it is good not to have half the rules secret)

    I understand that both the TWG and the SWG have been disbanded, thus the teams input into the rules has been almost cut off. Their participation has also been reduced by 50% (12 team representatives down to 6) in the FIA commission or whatever body approves the rules. (loose track of the structure)

    The new very much higher entry fees will be a drain on team finances, the more you win the higher the cost. Points mean fees! Plus the basic entry has shot up.

    I can guess that the reason that Bernie is against the new engine spec for 2014 is that it is dual purpose, in as much as it is/will be allowed in LMS as well. This is an area in which some of the major motor manufacturers (particularly German) have been active for many years, thus new entries, instead of going into F1 may well decide to go into LMS instead.
    With a dual use engine, (Bernie free) LMS could well be interesting for both Ferrari and McLaren, if F1 becomes too restrictive or is strangled by commercial greed, thus it is in Bernie’s interest to kill it off for F1 as soon as possible.

    History has shown the lengths that Bernie will go to, to get his own way, (look at what happened to all the other formulae once popular on tv in the uk) I think he is a genius but now is loosing his touch a little, (in the direction he has taken F1 commerce) but not his utter ruthlessness.

    It took the EU commission to break up the FISA/Bernie/Max cartel last time, but things are now moving away from the tripartite agreement that kept everybody happy.

    I think we are seen the start of major changes in F1

  10. A couple of weeks ago Ecclestone claimed that the sound of the turbo engines was okay, and now reports are appearing that he doesn’t like the sound. I wonder what changed his mind (the signing of Mercedes perhaps?), because knowing Bernie as the man he is, he never says something without a hidden agenda.

      1. Except in this case, Luca probably isn’t happy about it. Why should he want to invest tens of millions into a purported “road car” technology if none of his road cars will ever make use of it?

  11. Nice piece… thought provoking… leads me to have two questions…

    1. Is it really true that involvement in F1 provides significant engineering value (not marketing value) to companies who make road going cars? I know it sounds good, but is it true? (I really don’t know. Can’t think of examples off the top of my head since, well, disc brakes… but maybe I’m just forgetful…)

    2. Anybody know how to hazard a reasonable guess as to the scale of financial commitment required for a manufacturer to get serious about making F1 engines? (How many zeros?)

    Good point about western society failing to grow sufficient engineers. China is gonna eat everybody’s lunch if something doesn’t change in that regard. They are quite serious about producing PhD’s in engineering by the boatload. They have explicit national goals about this, and the implications are scary for every culture that likes to think of itself as technologically advanced. (Am not preaching fear of China, they’re being smart about it… I am preaching fear of the Ostrich Strategy.)

    1. As far as I understood RShack, one of the key ways of how Honda operated for years, was to use F1 as a sort of graduation class or talent training school for their engineers. I would be surprised if Renault and Mercedes are not doing something similar to an extent.

      Off course that had good things (transfer of knowledge, etc) but it probably also meant people were coming and going, maybe explaining why they never really got to the top (Honda)

  12. All very well saying NOW that a 1.6 turbo has no relevance, but in the Ford fleet a 3 cylinder 1 litre turbo should be insignificant. That is however their next big thing

  13. From what I’ve read Luca de Montezemolo is advocating a delay of the switch to V6 engines. I would not be surprised if it is postponed with 2 or 3 years but a move to “greener” and more relevant engines is ofcourse inevitable.

  14. Anyone who reads my comments will know I am the antihesis of a Bernie fan- bring on Munich – but I’m not convinced by the argument F1 is a breeding ground for road car technology anymore.

    Let’s say we want to see true innovation in fuel efficiency for example, which is highly relevant to road car engine design. Then the regulations could allow for unlimited horse power, restrict the weight of the car to an average family 4 door saloon and provide the teams with a defined amount of fuel for the duration of the race. They will work it out. More here…(so I don’t fill pages of Joe;s Blog http://thejudge13.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=104&action=edit&message=6&postpost=v2 … …)

    1. Total Fuel allowances would be a disaster. And the avearge saloon car weight is an overbloated number which has been rising for years, it is a cause of shame, not a target for F1.

      However, as Keith Duckworth proposed clearly in the early 1980s, a fuel flow restriction on the engine, with other design parameters free, would be an excellent idea.

      It was part of the proposed FOCA breakaway champ regs, but as I understand it, the fuel flow meters weren’t robust or reliable enough. Now they are.

        1. Ever follow the fuel-limited F1 turbo races (1984-86 perhaps),or the similarly fuel limited Group C sportcar races. You know how we currently have races ruined by someone having to back off on the engine map and cruise to the end?

          Well, the total fuel limit racing was far worse in that respect. Severely limiting fuel tank size and allowinf the engine (boost) to be wound up and wound down makes for poor racing. We’ve been there, seen that and fell asleep halfway through.

  15. Hi Joe,

    But don’t you think that too many engine manufactures would increase costs, as it happened when Michelin and Brigdestone were the tire suppliers?

    And wouldn’t this change of the engine design be more related to fuel economy and engine longevity (such as it happens in WEC), since it appears that FIA is going to pull down the number of units form 8 to 6 in 2014, or is this non-sense?

    1. In most businesses it seems to be the case that a monopoly or duopoly (2 companies) is the worst situation for product prices, and that you really want 4 or more competitors in a market.

  16. “The other element that needs to be considered by the automotive industry is the fact that the supply of engineers in the western world is drying up.”
    Further to this point, this sort of thing keeps being mentioned in engineering circles. If you consider that Engineering is in competition with other fields such as finance for talent then the question is why do graduates go there rather than into Engineering? IME in the countries mentioned in the report (China, India) Engineering enjoys a similar pay and status to other professions such as Doctors, whereas in the UK your photocopier is repaired by an “Engineer”.
    As soon as Engineering enjoys similar pay and status to other professions then we can complain about the lack of Engineering graduates in the West. The fact is young people are not stupid and are going where the money is.
    Now I agree Engineering should be inspiring the young, but engineering isn’t sexy – just look at the Olympics and how coverage of that is handled and how that is always being sold as inspiring people; whereas how was the delivery of Crossrail or the latest ARM processor handled and where was the media coverage on how that should inspire people?
    Speaking as an engineer I try to inspire people and explain what I do and why it is so great, but when even telling my co-workers what I do is hard enough how do explain what I do to for example my Niece and encourage her to work and excel at what she does so she one day might be able to do something similar?

    1. Maybe your niece does not want to mend photocopiers, all that nasty toner powder! 🙂

      We threw away our industry by letting it be bought up by other countries and then run down to nothing. We were now a “Service and financial centre”! We did not need to make things, the money would pour in to the country through our financial genius banks and traders.

      We have no engineers coming on through uni? We don’t deserve any, we as a country screwed up big time! We have wasted hundreds of our engineers, good guys (and women too, though not as many) as our manufacturing industries were either run down or bought up (or betrayed)
      I hate to say it but the French had the right idea in their fierce protectionism.
      I worked in the UK automotive industry and was sad to see so many loose their jobs, mainly through appallingly bad management and lack of foresight. The advent of global purchasing sounded the death knell of many British component suppliers.

  17. It should always be remembered that LDM cares about one thing and one thing only. Ferrari. If he thought their engine was 50HP better off than anyone else’s he would be pushing for turbo power NEXT year. He’s worried that their engine isn’t up to scratch so is hinting for a delay, nothing more.

  18. Joe,
    Anyone who decides to scrap the V6T engine after adhering to the new rules and after spending millions must be insane.
    I strongly disagree with you when you say that Ferrari “might be worried” about competing with the others. Do you honestly think that they are afraid of Mercedes and Renault? And besides that, who do you think cares about F1 fuel consumption?
    Furthermore, it has to be pointed out, that since engine developmment was forbidden, the engine has become largely irrelevant, it does not make a winning car anymore. Maybe the 1st year with the turbo engines might produce some surprises.
    Monty recently said we need to think about viewing F1 on smartphones & tablets, but he forgot to mention that, to start with, the viewers in Great Britain are decreasing because it is on pay TV now. The same is going to happen next year in Italy when F1 is on Sky as well. Is he suggesting a pay-TV channel for mobile devices? This is silly!
    How can you complain about dwindling interest and at the same time embrace pay-TV?

    1. Why is F1 moving to pay TV? Because F1’s commercial rights holders don’t care about long term growth, they’re short-timers looking for immediate profits.

      Private equity firms like CVC generally squeeze ever drop of revenue out of a company then sell whatever remains. If pay TV offers them more revenue in the short term, they’ll go with pay TV . That pay TV diminishes the sport and makes it nearly invisible to the youth market doesn’t concern them a bit. CVC will be completely divested of F1 within a few years, perhaps sooner. Then it will be someone else’s problem.

      As for Bernie, it’s often been said that there are two kinds of CEOs, those that try to ensure their business is able to survive their departure – and those that don’t care if the business falls to bits the minute they’re out the door. Bernie seems to be the latter. To him, such a disintegration would just prove how good a job he’d done while at the helm, how irreplaceable he was.

      Bernie has never tended the sport with a view towards the long term. Given that Bernie is now on his eighth decade, one expects his long-term focus has reached an ever lower level of importance.

      1. I am not accusing Bernie of seeking only short term money. To the contrary, I am sure he must be credited with a large part of F1’s success over the past 30 years. I am worried that Montezemolo is changing his mind about pay-TV while at the same time complaining about reduced viewer numbers.

    2. Some good points there, in particular that the engine is no longer relevant in the racing. At the moment, it wouldn’t make any difference at all to the racing if there was only one engine manufacturer (except that, provided it wasn’t Renault, Vettel wouldn’t have retired twice and would be leading the drivers championship). I doubt whether many spectators even know what type of engine Sauber uses for example, nor care.

      That isn’t to criticise Joe’s article, because he is totally steeped in F1 and it is right that he should say what he says. I doubt though whether there is commercial/marketing space in F1 for any more big name makers. When we had BMW, Toyota and Honda as well, there were too many names for all of them to be winning. If you are one of six names and you’re not winning it’s a marketing disaster – not only is your investment not producing a return, it is producing a negative return. Not good for business.

    3. And another thing, not everyone has an iPhone or a tablet, in fact I am thinking of getting one of those OAP phones with big numbers on. Who on earth wants to watch F1 on a 1.5 inch screen. I listen to the radio commentary and watch the timing page when it is not on proper telly (that’s the bbc BTW)
      Maybe the tiffosi will make their voice heard when that have to pay for cable next year.

  19. I, for one, can’t wait for the “road car relevance” to filter down. I can’t wait to be sitting at the traffic lights in my little 1.6 turbo Clio ticking over at 4,000 rpm, launching away from the lights and changing gear using my flappy paddles at 18,000rpm 😉

    1. I think one of them was next to me at the light last week. Had a loud stereo, blue lights, lots of stickers and a 12 year old boy with a funny baseball cap driving it. 😉

  20. We now for a fact that Piech and VW will not enter F1 exactly for the reasons Joe has explained. A car manufacturer cannot expect a return on his F1 investment if he is looking at all the historical evidence. F1 is a franchise of a hand full of teams who practically have control of the technical and competition rules together with the commercial exploiter. They participate significantly in the profits and their majority has no interest to give manufacturing teams an advantage. However the rules of the power plants will evolve in the future I’m pretty sure that Bernie and the teams will not allow the manufacturers to run away with a significant competitive advantage. So unless the manufacturers agree to cost and resource control their opposition will fight to delay the new engines for as long as possible. Personally I think the engines are much over due but I fear the negative forces at work.

    The dual use consideration makes a lot of sense to me. Bernie surely wants to keep his pinnacle perception and wants to keep as many cylinders and sweep volume as possible to sell his perceived pinnacle to the unwashed. In the meantime even the luxury and sports car industry will accelerate the trend towards smaller blown engines. He must know that the perception will change in some years but for the time being he gambles on the old thinking to prevail.

  21. Joe,
    Bernie will NEVER get the rule making role as well from the FIA because the European commission would crush him and the FIA like a bug for trying it and the rules they could enforce would as a result for a remedy would not be anywhere close to Bernie’s liking.

    Everyone will cry and whine about the new engines, especially in the first year when they break and fail and then it will be all forgotten. I miss the sound of V12’s and the V10’s, yes Joe that old, still here with V8’s….. and how many cylinders did the old Renault turbos have??? Six as I recall, arranged in a V wasn’t it? And they were not killed off for being bad sounding, it was because they kept wining and equality of turbos with normally aspirated was hard to achieve! Did the fire breathing off throttle not add to the show? How about that at a night race?

    Nope Bernie is trying to change the subject for some reason, things going on in Germany maybe?

    1. Joe will correct me if I’m wrong, but it wasn’t due to equivalency. F1 has been all turbo for (at least) 2 years when the axe fell of the turbos at the end of 1988. As I understand it, the trubos had to go because their power outputs were out of control. The FIA wanted about 600-650bhp, but and the next step was going to be 1.2litre 4 cylinders. However, these still would have exceeded 650bhp very quickly, even with boost limits. The cost and exotic fuels were difficult to police, so the FIA to the drastic approach and binned the turbos.

      And, of course, the 1.2litre, 4 cylinder turbo was reputedly very unpopular in Maranello.

      1. Wrong about there being no equivalency formula for NA vs turbos, I’m afraid. 1986 was the only all turbo year, and in 1987 and 1988 we even had the Jim Clark Cup/Colin Chapman Trophy for normally aspirated cars as part of the run-up to the switch to 3.5 litre atmo engines in 1989.

        1. I didn’t say there was no equivalnce formula in F1 up until1 1985.

          There was no equivalence formula when the decision was made to get rid of turbos. The FIA had given up trying to equalize them 2 years before. Equivalence had no bearing on teh FIA’s decion to scrap turbos, beacuse there were no NA cars in F1 (or indeed allowed in F1 rule) when teh FIA made that decsion. It would be like stating that F1 are getting rid of 2.4 V8’s because they can’t get them to equalize with 5.0 V10 diesels.

          1987 was the beginning of the phasing out of the turbos, The turbos and the DFVs were running in separate classes, meaning that there was no attempt to make them equal.

          Few believed that a front running team would use a turbo in 1988. Ferrari ran their old car and engine with a lower boost popoff valve. However, Honda designed and built an new engine for the 2.5 bar boost and then won 15 out of 16 races.

  22. This debate cannot ignore the required progress in recoverable energy technologies and aero opportunities. Furthermore, the F1 benefits from an FIA standpoint are as much in terms or road safety as engine efficiency. Road safety lecturer on an AA course I recently attended said F1 was responsible for more saved lives than any other automotive initiative/technological development.

    1. Joe, great analysis lower down this piece but at the top you seem to be missing the most important point. I have read the Hindustan Times article about this which was alerted in your other post (link below for anyone who missed it) and it is very clear that Ecclestone is NOT saying HE will scrap the engine rules but that the FIA will. Will THIS happen? As I asked in the comments in the other post about this – where can we go to find the regulations?
      http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print/937322.aspx

      1. I’d love to know the logic of why the FIA would undermine its entire programme of the last five years.

        1. So are you saying that the FIA will or will not ditch the new engine regulations? And why attack Ecclestone over this? As Random said in your post about All this and a calendar as well, Ecclestone is still the most important person in the sport and when he says the new engines are to be shelved, there’s a very good chance they will be shelved. Random said that teams could leave because of this but I guess it will only happen if the regulations are introduced. This is why I don’t think it’s important to criticise Ecclestone for saying this or someone else for writing it. News reporters will have no choice but to quote what he says regardless of whether or not it smells like a steaming pile (although the Hindustan times is not a well known news wire). But none of this changes the fact that the real question is if the regulations will actually be introduced. If they are introduced then the teams are at risk regardless of who wrote the initial news and regardless of whether or not Ecclestone was talking through his a** in the first place. I’m not saying you are wrong to criticise Ecclestone but that it does not help understand if the regulations will or will not be introduced. Ecclestone says that the FIA will scrap them so will this happen or not? And where can we see the regulations for 2014 – are they on the FIA website?

          1. Why do you think he knows? All he is stating quite logically that it would be very odd for the FIA and the engine manufactures to simply abandon a 5 year plan 18 months before it’s launch simply because BE says so.

  23. “Shortage of automotive engineers”
    Last year the swiss-french TV channel made a report about how easy it is to get a job after university. They followed 3 different graduates in Spain, France & Italy. They chose 3 different cases in all countries and it was precisely with mechanical engineers seeking a job with big name car makers. Contrary to what you are saying, the 3 engineers failed to get more than temporary jobs. The Spanish engineer received an 8-month contract for 1’100 € per month to work for Seat near Barcelona, but once on the job he found out he had replaced another temporary engineer hired a year earlier. In France & Italy they got a 1-year fixed term contract. Maybe renewable, but probably not! This is nowadays general practice : Hire a temporary guy with a salary that forces him to stay with his parents. After one year, fire him and start again. With car factories closing in Italy, France and Germany I wonder how it is possible to face a shortage of automotive engineers.

  24. “These come from a journalist who is famously known to parrot everything Bernie Ecclestone says without ever questioning it.”

    Pitpass I’m guessing. Nice article.

  25. Very appropriate article about a never ending story. Thank you!

    Engine sound edition 345 is vintage Ecclestone; together with his bunch of well-paid journalists and some Walker Internet Combatants, to befog his adversaries in contorting the facts and to play off one against the other. It may be a kind of a “red-herring” to distract his legal difficulties. Dear folks: We have an unanimous board decision and hundred billions already spent for the new engine formula which realization will be crucial for the future of F1. And now two old codgers “don`t like the sound” and therefor it should be scrapped. And thats how this sport is run. No wonder we see Audi and Toyota in WEC, Honda prefers IndyCar and WTCC and VW Rallye. Of course, Ecclestone doesn´t matter if there is a future or not, as he will be either in jail or six feet under.

  26. Why is it accepted as truth that a race engine must be “relevant”? NASCAR did fairly well for a long time with technology that is completely outdated and the sport surged (and manufacturers remain involved). I do agree that F1 is the pinnacle of racing and must remain so; I would never suggest we revert to ancient technology – I am, however, wondering why road relevance is important to race fans. “Road relevance” seems like a sop to the manufacturers who must justify the investment to a board. I suppose you will say that my last sentence is the answer to my first question.

  27. Frankly the link to road cars from F1 is now non-existing so I do not see why the push to do an F1 light. This is the only way we have to see the top of the line of what the manufacturers can do, a la “Concept Cars” in car shows. I love to see and hear the BIG engines, if I want to see smaller formulas the options are diverse and varied (Indy included). Also, trying to make F1 green falls in the same criterion, this is the pinnacle of motor racing and trying to “hybrisize” the formula, I think is a mistake as it is just a marketing ploy to calm the eco guys who don’t go to the races anyway.
    Lets keep the big engines and the technology, as this a niche and premier sport, let the other formulas fight it out in the v6s and v4s.

      1. I wish. But there seem to be no attempt to revive it whatsoever (outside PURE-marketing)… It doesn’t seem to work on manufacturers though! Probably because they realize that all their resources and R&D aren’t of much use in the F1 world, where reading the rules in a clever way brings far more points than R&D, at least until the next clarification from Charlie banning such an ‘innovation’. In terms of innovation we’re seeing more breakthroughs in swivel-jack and wheel nut technology that in anything useful outside the F1 bubble.

  28. Hi joe i would rather twin turbo v6 engines and no limit on power, period. You stated that engine manurfactures and an independant is that recardo for Mclaren by any chance?????

  29. Can anyone remember the mid 80’s turbo 1.5l engines…., in qualifying? Beats these loud sewing machines they have now. Whenever you get incar footage it’s like watching Playstation 😉
    Could it be that it looks too easy to drive and dare I say “a bit boring” to watch generally that the sport isn’t drawing the audiences all you experts are talking about?
    And all the clever strategy stuff which frankly is pretty difficult to follow plus the bland drivel you get from the actors when they’re interviewed…
    I can’t believe I still watch it after so many years – 1st attended GP at Ricard in 1976! – but at the time I was hooked by the emotion of it. It was hardly ever on TV and you only had Motoring News and Autosport to get some idea of what was going on.
    Now, not only are we inundated with information which we usually find out is wrong, but there’s massive competition from other sports and activities to consider.
    Motorsport should maybe think about decomplexyfying itself so that its a bit easier for non passionate people to get a grip on it. Ok, it’s only my view but I can remember following drivers from FF to F3 (national and euro championships) then into F2 ( which became F3000) and then F1. Now half the drivers you haven’t a clue where they’ve sprung from – which could mean that the passion to follow a driver isn’t deep rooted enough to stand the test of boring races.
    And can anyone remember Procars, BMW M1’s racing before the Grand Prix with a healthy selection of F1 drivers on the grid – mega! I remember watching them at Monaco – i cant remember complaing about how much it cost to get there and get in. Now the drivers suddenly appear from the depths of a garage, jump in and are gone. Forget trying to get near, that’s only for the ones on the inside. It’s a participants sport. It seems a bit futile to try and compare it to Football don’t you think?

    1. Cedric

      “Can anyone remember the mid 80′s turbo 1.5l engines…., in qualifying?”

      Yes, straight fours, V-6’s and V-8’s, brilliant but different from what we have now. No worries about the noise not being good.

      “And can anyone remember Procars, BMW M1′s racing before the Grand Prix with a healthy selection of F1 drivers on the grid…”/

      Yes, Andretti, Jones etc. where are you Lewis, Sebastian etc?

      Martin

  30. Not directly relevant to this discussion, but certainly likely to be of interest to many posting comments in this thread…. Perhaps I can recommend you search YouTube for “turbo F1 engines” and enjoy an episode of the uk tv documentary “Equinox” from the 1980s, charting the development of the Cosworth turbo engine. It’s split into two parts of around 50 mins each.

    You’ll catch a glimpse of a young looking Ross Brawn and hear the immoral line “several hundred F1 engines do no warrant an investment in computer aided design…”! Classic TV documentary from before someone decided everything must be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and utterly fascinating to anyone with an interest in engineering or the history of F1. Recommended to all…

    1. Yeah damn good piece of work. It´s called “Turbos, how they started Part 1 and 2” on youtube. It´s a fascinating inside into development and first time use of the Ford Cosworth V6 from the cradle to Imola race 1986. You can feel the intense and cheerful atmosphere witnessing the first test at Boreham race track in February 1986. Featuring young Ross Brawn, Neil Oatley, Charlie Crichton-Stewart, Teddy Mayer, Keith Duckworth, Dick Scammel, Jones and Tambay, Martin Waters, Mike Kranefuss and so on, Also a good sound sample to imagine how they sounded. F1predict, do you know if it`s on sale as a DVD?? Would like to afford it.

      1. Great stuff. Originally aired on C4 as “Gentlemen start your engines” if I recall correctly I remember watching it as a teenager, hungry for every tech detail.

        The reason for the 120 deg V6 ford was good. The documentary told it was due to a plan to make it a compound engine with a chain connecting the trubo shaft to the crankshaft.

        There was also a BBC2 ‘Horizon’ programme called “Gentlemen lift your skirts”

  31. Amazing that so many people apparently intelligent enough to operate a computer can’t grasp the basics of technology trickle-down. A road car engine doesn’t have to be a 15k rpm screamer to benefit from technology developed for such motors. Think of the advances needed in materials technology, bearing structures, high-temperature and -pressure engine management, heat management, and so on. If F1 technology needs to be passed en bloc into the real world, why is it that the flywheel KERS systems that Williams improved and developed for F1 use are now finding application in trucks and trains? Are these secretly running on 2.4 litre V8 gasoline engines all of a sudden?

  32. Do you think Hyundai or one of the other large Asian (non-Japanese) car companies (even a Chinese one?) might see developing a new F1 engine as a way to improve their own engineers technical and innovation abilities, while also improving their credibility with motor-sports viewers around the world?

    If not for 2014, then maybe in the next decade?
    It worked for Honda in the 60’s.

  33. “the new rules should lead to technology that will be useful for the industry – and development that will outstrip the normal plodding pace of the automobile industry. The fastest ways to develop new automotive technologies are by going to war or by getting involved in motor racing and, with cost-effectiveness a vital element in the modern automotive world, manufacturers want new ideas and engineers who will make them happen. ”

    That is a VERY idealistic view. More technically-minded reviewers (such as Racecar Engineering) call the 2014 engine regs very restrictive and conservative at best. It’s known that even a lot of the current road-car tech is banned in F1 for 2014 (like VTG). I wish the rule makers would realize that when teams/manufacturers seem to be more than willing to spend, cutting costs AND promoting innovation is are two self cancelling goals. Both current AND future F1 engines are almost identical (weight, CoG, configuration and dimensions of every little part are specified by the regulations), very conservative, yet very expensive, because manufacturers have money to spend and will refine every little part within the regs.
    The most efficient way to trim tenths off the laptime is to pour money into the wind tunnel and CFD to fiddle around with the front wing. Innovation it isn’t.

    Maybe the 2014 turbo engine regs were initially going to allow innovation, but as it stands right now, it’s ‘engine freeze’ all over again.

  34. Are turbos really relevant to today’s car industry? Will turbos be relevant to tomorrow’s car industry? Seriously, how many of the world-wide car-buying masses really need a turbocharged car? Or even know what a turbo is? I think it’s a niche market at best. I know my Mom doesn’t need 200+ bhp to get to church and I’ll bet there are millions more like her…

    1. That is the way the industry seems to be going. You must remember that when the FIA was thinking up the new rules, it went to the car manufacturers and asked them what they thought they would want in the years ahead. The result is what they asked for.

      1. You’re about 10 years out of date, turbo’s are absolutely relevant to todays car industry and don’t apply to high power outputs. Every large volume manufacturer is downsizing some of their engine range and adding a turbo maintain power, simply because a small engine running higher loads is more efficient than a large engine running low loads. This isn’t new, it’s already in the market!!

    2. Small capacity turbo engines are the way forward. High efficiency, low weight, easy packaging, and no idiotic batteries to lug about. A much better solution than hybrid technology. For work we have two types of small car available in the vehicle pool: Toyota Priuses (hybrid, of course) and VW Jettas (small capacity turbo). From personal experience, I get about the same fuel efficiency from each around town, and on the highway the VW kicks the Prius into the dark ages. The best part? The Jetta has something in the region of three times the practical load carrying volume of the Prius, because where a Jetta has a boot, a Prius has a glorified parcel shelf above a trunk full of batteries. This is the big lie about hybrids, they aren’t more efficient than a well designed turbo engine. It infuriated me when Red Ken brought in the London congestion charge, as somebody with a 60mpg Yaris had to pay full fees, while someone driving a 25mpg Lexus got a free pass. All in the name of efficiency and saving the planet, of course.

  35. Scrapping a car is the term used to describe taking a car to the Metal Recycler. … which is attached to the exhaust pipe between the engine and the muffler. Excellent post… I like it.

  36. When Max Mosley introduced KERS Ferrari was against it. They clearly were suffering from the NIH-syndrome (not invented here). Piero Ferrari said they don’t have the needed electrical engineers and they had to hire new (for them) sorts of people. Monty made slightly less noise at the time but he was against it too. They clearly didn’t think KERS could flow into their street cars. But surprise surprise: in 2011 they showed a street car prototype using a sort of KERS. Very much like F1.
    However, this is a one-off!
    Ferrari have said racing is in their genes. That was Monty anyway, mythical Enzo was less familiar with genetics. They were always interested in winning races. And since they were in F1 they developed whatever they thought could help to win races.
    Ask Forghieri, Barnard, Byrne & Newey if they ever spared even half a thought for street cars when they designed their cars.
    You can of course argue that in the 90s Ferrari have made big steps forward in terms of electronic engine mangement that certainly made it years later into their normal cars. In case you have doubts about this, read again Barrichello’s interview after his first few tests with Ferrari just after leaving Stewart-Ford. But that particular technology was not made having Ferrari’s street cars in mind. It was done simply because they thought it would make their racing car go faster, as always.
    I challenge anyone who says that F1 has developed technology for normal cars except for very few exceptions.
    As an example, Toyota developed sophisticated engine management even before they got into F1. They certainly did not get into F1 to raise their game in engine technology, even if they hired a Ferrari engineer for the job. Now that they left F1, does anyone think their V8 engines have gained in sophistication? The answer is a clear NO!
    And for God’s sake : stop talking of green cars! Or environmentally clean engines. Internal combustion engines will never be clean! Battery-driven stuff also will never ever be green or clean.
    Those who claim that F1 is losing interest because of environmental concerns don’t know what they are talking about.

  37. Getting manufacturers into F1 is all well and good, but you need to look at the state of the companies. Most car companies are in dire straits with massive over capacity. Especially those head quartered in the US/Europe/Japan.

    Bernard looked east (near and far) with the circuits in the 2000s. As he is astute at finding new markets, it surprises me that he has not be able to repeat this with up and coming manufacturers, especially the Koreans, who have been the big winners since the GFC. You have seen Samsung rise from a cheap copy brand to a market leader, overtaking the traditional Japanese electronic giants. Kia/Hyundai could use F1 as a way to position its higher end cars up the food chain.

  38. Good article; apart from the second sentence. Why, oh why must you always ‘attack’ other journalists?
    Yes, we know you’re a journalist, and a good one, but all those stabs are annoying and irrelevant.

    1. I don’t attack other journalists. This bloke is not a proper F1 journalist. He cannot get passes to F1 races. Even if he could, he could not cover the costs. I have infinite respect for professional journalists who do the job properly. I have no time for the know-it-all stay-at-home wannabes.

      1. Then why are you giving him attention?
        And, of course in the process saying how much better a journo you are. Seems a bit childish.

        1. The guy bullshits about his own importance – and some people are taken in. I am simply shooting him down. If you don’t like that or wish to judge that, feel free. However it is my blog and if you want to tell me what you think, I am quite entitled to tell you what I think. If you don’t like that, the door is over there.

          1. One would think that Mr S**t acting as a mouthpiece for Bernard would at least be rewarded with a pass and enough cash to afford to go to the races.

            On the other hand “useful idiots*” are cheap, not needing to be paid to be a mouthpiece?

            (*Copyright CPSU?)

            😉

      2. To be fair, when “proper F1 journalists” like Andrew Benson (with full press accreditation and a corporate salary and expenses to fall back on) continue to churn out error-ridden pieces masquerading as historical biography, Sylt’s unpaid parrot impression isn’t too egregious. If the man from the BBC can’t be bothered to learn the history of the sport that “has had [him] in its spell for most of [his] life”, or even perform rudimentary fact checking, then what hope does an amateur have?

          1. Fair enough, but some of his errors really are poor for someone who professes passion for the sport and pays his mortgage and bills off the back of it.

  39. I’ve seen a few changes of formula for F1 and in the main the results are fairly predictable.
    Now, back in 1966 it was a real lottery with only Ferrari and BRM preparing (well Ferrari anyway) for the new formula. Dan Gurney had to rely on an old Coventry Climax 4 banger for most of the first year, Cooper used an old sports Maserati V12, McLaren in their first year a sleeved Indy Ford 4 cam V8, Ferrari custom designed V12s, BRM the complicated and weak H16(!), and wiley old Jack Brabham with help from Australian parts maker Repco had basically a production American Oldsmobile V8. There were teams running 2 litre Coventry Climaxes at places like Monaco with some success too. That was all fascinating stuff, wonderful variety and comletely different to today. Was it better? I don’t think so, but it was REALLY interesting and to my mind the era that produced the loveliest GP cars. Look at a Gurney Eagle, a Lotus 49 or even a McLaren M7 and listen to a V12 Weslake, Ferrari or Matra engine and yes, a Coswoth V8. If you close your eyes at a race today can you tell the difference between a Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault engined car? And as for those lovely great rear tyres on GP cars and 6 wheel GP cars……….ahh stop living in the past lad, I’m a dinosauer but by Christ I’m glad I was there for it all.

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