Sebastian Vettel has apologised in person to Red Bull Racing staff for ignoring team orders during the Malaysian Grand Prix, something which commenters on this blog who thought his moves were fine should perhaps take on board.
“He’s said he can’t turn back the clock but he’s accepted what he did was wrong,” team principal Christian Horner told Reuters. “He’s apologised to the team and to every single member of staff for his actions, because he recognises the team is vitally important and being part of the team is a crucial aspect to being able to challenge for those championships.”
Forgiving and forgetting are, of course, different stories and while the team has been trying very hard to paper over the cracks that appeared in Sepang and has been busy telling everyone that Vettel and Mark Webber have shaken hands, one would forgive Webber if he was still counting his fingers.
Rebuilding broken trust between team-mates is a tough thing to do, but perhaps more importantly, Red Bull needs to work on getting Webber to trust the team management, which rolled over so easily when Vettel broke the team orders in Sepang. Given that weak response, Webber remarked that Vettel would get away with it “as always”, exposing the long smouldering belief that Vettel has always been the chosen one.
Suspicions of this have been rife since 2010 when the team made a shocking mess of things in Turkey after Vettel crashed into Webber. It was clear to any sane person that the German had caused the crash, but Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko blamed Webber and team principal Christian Horner impaled himself on the fence, rather than saying was obvious for all to see. There was a further indication at the British GP when the Red Bull designers produced a new front wing that was intended to help the drivers go quicker around the Northamptonshire track. Both men had one of the new wings on Saturday morning, but in the middle of the session Sebastian’s nose broke loose from its mountings. The team then decided to take Webber’s front wing and give it to Vettel, which did not go down well. After Webber won the race the following day, he made the famous remark: “Not bad for a number two driver”.
So the rifts were there before Malaysia and a handshake is not going to make much difference. The two drivers may have agreed to move on, but how much trust will there be when they next find themselves in that position. And how much will Webber trust the team to do the right thing? Vettel has the points he scored in Sepang and thus is ahead of Webber in the World Championship, whereas the pair would have had the same total if Webber had won the race.
joeblogsf1 
Well summarized, Joe.
If anyone doubts the how serious and unsettling an issue like this is to an athelete performing at this level, remember a similar incident is widely considered to be a contributing factor in the death of a champion caliber F1 driver.
Don’t be so melodramatic. Gilles would be dead at Zolder either way. Anyone who say otherwise… Well lets just leave it at that.
Oh and how is Vettel the chosen one, when the team, including Horner, were set to make Mark win artificially with team orders at Rd2 of the season? How can anti Vettel / pro Webber fans want their cake and eat it too.
You hit the nail on the head, Joe. The team must make moves to make sure Webber doesn’t lose the faith, well anymore than he already has. I’m not sure Webber will ever trust the team again.
‘exposing the long smouldering belief that Vettel has always been the chosen one’ – that is absolutely the fact and everyone knows it – sadly for Mark
Still it’s good that Seb is getting a public dressing down – however I have a suspicion that neither of them may be there next year – although were Fernando to swap with Seb Mark might carry on at RB
I think you may be getting a little carried away with the 2014 theories…
Aha! we will see……doesn’t hurt to throw a few logs on the fire. I couldn’t see Alonso and Vettel in the same team……
The possibility of Massa and Webber swapping struck me as a workable solution to this problem. Which I agree is not resolved simply by a handshake. Massa, however, is presumably happier now at Ferrari than he was initially last year, so he won’t necessarily want to leave…
Hi Joe, I remember that after leading much of the race, Schumacher slowed and let Barrichello win at the United States GP at Indy, after the Austrian debacle and backlash in 2002, I wonder if Vettel would do the same for Webber this season?
I remember Ferrari claiming Schumacher and Barrichello were trying to cross the finish line at exactly the same time…
I think Vettel doing that would be rubbing salt into the wound; I suspect Mark would rather eat dirt.
I was there at Indy and an already ticked of crowd would have lynched Schumacher for further rubbing in what a joke the entire event was if he had come anywhere close to them!
I think Schumacher massively miscalculated gifting the win and had no idea just how bad things were with the crowd, until he got out of the car. Ferrari should never have run that day as they did and instead agreed to changes that would have allowed a race. But winning was everything for Ferrari and the took a self inflicted black eye and Schumacher was the public face of it.
I think RBR is also miscalculating the damage to reputation of the team and internal politics. Time will show how much pain it really causes. No one wants to see Vettel gift back a win. They want a race, every race. The team tell them to hold station and conserve fuel then Vettel does it and does not cheat!
In the end RBR’s response has been weak and feeble, too little too late.
Was that after Schumacher had already secured the WDC?
I remember that race well. People were walking out of that race muttering “well that’s a bunch of B.S.!” Both drivers looked sheepish on the podium. I don’t think Rubens rates that as one of his favorite victories.
I’ll never forget that podium with Barri and Schum indeed looking quite sheepish and Tiago Monteiro partying like it was 1999. Then again, Tiago must have realized he wasn’t going to see the podium ever again.
Here’s hoping that Webber takes it the same way he did at Silverstone 2010 and comes out fighting for the championship.
Webbo – thanks so much, mate, but you do not seem to accept the No.2 role you should – not even at 3:0. Don’t ever forget this!
On the contrary – you directly hurt your team-mate at Interlagos 2012, as well as last Sunday. You will not be forgiven for that – not in the team and not by the real fans!
Why should you get that win – because you left the hard tires for the last stint? To throw away 25 points later on and on those brilliant starts? Come on…and I’m not German.
Time has come to move on, relax and enjoy retirement and let VET shine, shine and shine on. Enjoy yous surfing and biking and take care, next time you may not be that lucky again!
Webbo out – Kimi in, thank you very much!
You seem to think that everything in life is black and white.
Why should Mark accept number two status?
Mark should get that win because that is what the team said should happen. Why did they do that?
Vettel won the title in Interlagos in 2012, so would you care to explain how Webber hurt the result?
Webber squeezed Vettel during the Interlagos 2012 start. Few people commented on that, particularly because the drivers’ title was at play, but Andrew Benson wrote this week: “there may even have been a bit of residual revenge on Vettel’s part – the German and his champion at Red Bull, motorsport chief Helmet Marko, felt Webber was obstructive in last season’s title-deciding Brazilian Grand Prix.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21916317
Joe, Mark is approaching the end of his career and we all know now that even the greatest fade. He’s had his chances.
Webber should accept it because he is a clear number two! A great one. Not accepting it causes conflicts and pain…
The DWC in Brazil was not achieved with Mark’s help – on the contrary, after what he did in the first corners, not helping Seb at all, but his closest competitor, Alonso, and putting 3Vettel at a huge risk. I would have thanked him for good after that, would I have been in any position to do so.
Why the team did that? Well, even great managers make mistakes…
I think you miss a rather important point. Webber dies not see himself as a number two, nor does the team say that.
Then why should Vettel see himself as a no2, even for a single final stint of a race?
He does not have to. he just has to do as he told.
Didn’t he say after a Silverstone win that he’s the team’s #2? I agree though that the Team repeats over and over that both Drivers are equal.
The attempt at hurting it (the WDC) is enough. That fact Webber failed, as in Silverstone 2011, ir irrelevant. The disobeying is relevant. The difference is Vettel had the ability and balls to make it stick. He Webbered Webbo, so to speak. Even Horner mentions Brazil 2012 with embarrassment.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Brainless
“And how much will Webber trust the team to do the right thing?” So, to put it simply: Red Bull giving the order to hold position was “the right thing”. Had they told WEB to let VET pass like Ferrari did in Germany 2010, and clearly betting for the driver that already won 3 WDCs for them, that would have been “wrong”, right?
The English expression: “to do the right thing” means to be ethical and do what is right. It is not for you or I to decide what Red Bull Racing does. That is their choice and the drivers are expected to obey (and, hence, do the right thing).
I understand that. Quoting your own words after GER’10:
“F1 teams are big businesses and they need to be run in a sensibly way, but the key element in sport is free and fair competition”.
I just fail to see how telling your drivers not to race promotes “free and fair competition”.
Sure, WEB turning his engine down and VET not doing so is not fair at all (though I highly doubt Mark kept his engine like that when defending himself from Seb’s attacks); but forbidding your drivers to race is exactly the opposite of “free and fair competition”.
So what I meant was: dirvers will feel team orders are “right” when they favour them. Everything else would feel “wrong”. Good luck to WEB with that, apparently he just realised he is the second driver at Red Bull…
It is up to the team.
Right. But it is interesting that there was a lot of questioning about Ferrari’s decision for GER’11, and not a single written word about Red Bull’s this time. It seems to look from the outside that you agree with the latter, and disagree with the former.
But anyway, this is pretty irrelevant, I agree teams have the perfect right to decide what to do in each situation, but that won’t make me like team orders. I don’t mind drivers disobeying them: I am just a fan, not a team owner.
Thanks a lot for your answers, Joe. It was a nice chat.
You seem to be leaving out the small, but important, difference in the sporting regulations the two seasons. The Ferrari episode happened at a time when team orders were not legal under the rules. That is no longer the case.
AI, Perhaps the key points to highlight are this:
There are two forms of Team Order in F1. Type A: One which is directed in the best interests of the team contesting the WCC. Type B: One directed in the best interests of contesting the WDC and/or lead driver. Both are applied by teams dependant upon race situations, but the latter WDC TO type – is more typically issued at the back end of the season when the driver in clearly the best position to compete is sorted within the team.
The TO RBR applied at Sepang was clearly the former Type A (WCC interest, reducing risk for maximum WCC points haul). It is issued to avoid the drivers taking unnecessary risks between each other. Team over Individual interests, especially early in the season where risks of tyre-life and other factors are less well understood.
The other TO case you have mentioned, as used by Ferrari at German GP 2011 was an example of the Type B TO (WDC or lead driver driven). It was pretty early in the season for such an order, and that’s what bugged most pundits at the time.
People feel very differently about these TO types. The Type B one is far more sensitive and controversial, if applied too early in season, or applied with obvious connotations of driver favouritism.
You cannot (and should not) compare TO-apples to TO-pears. JF
You seem to be missing the point entirely – or, at least, as I (and most others understand the situation on Sunday.
The order to hold positions after the last round of pit-stops was reached BEFORE the race began – presumably at the pre-race team meeting. Therefore Sebastian was a party to that agreement and, therefore, Mark was absolutely entitled to feel as aggrieved as he plainly did on the podium – and, presumably, still feels.
As I understand it, the reason for this agreement being reached was because RBR were unsure how the tyres would perform to the end of the race (better than they assumed, so it seems), and wanted to ensure as good a points total for the Constructor’s Championship – that’s what the team are actually in F1 for – as was possible to achieve.
Thrashing the tyres in an all-out battle between their two cars wasn’t ever a part of the equation for RBR as a team – as was clear earlier in the race; hence Vettel’s petulant verbalised complaint (“Mark’s too slow; get him out of the way”) about Webber’s speed.
For RBR – and Mark Webber, the racing actually ended on lap 45; so it should have for Sebastian Vettel – after all, that was what he, apparently, agreed to BEFORE the race. I just think he assumed he would be the one in front – so didn’t think it would ever be an issue.
For want of a better word, Sebastian cheated Mark out of a well earned win, and cheated the rest of the team simply be reneging on that agreement.
Hence the apologies – however sincere.
Classic… Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh.
This (and much more brit media) is anti Vettel rhetoric. Not anti or pro team orders debating. The arguments are being formulated to fit a Vettel bashing.
The boy is most certainly resented, I think people with long standing in F1 feel it all came a bit to easy for ol’ Seb. That he hasn’t “worked” for all this success. But the fact is its not a competion on work and effort and longevity, but talent. Anything contrary to that, like team orders, should be banned. One way… Get rId of the radios ala MotoGp.
If it was only work, Kimi would not have a single win to his name.
Well said Nick63. The majority of the media and fans (not including Joe) seem to fail to comprehend this point. Was Silverstone’s late race pass attempt by Webber overriding a pre-race agreement? How often are these pre-race agreements made? Why would Vettel (like Rosberg) ask permission to pass if he did not know or a pre-race agreement not to pass. The fact he asked for permission, was not given it and did so anyway was what stood this instance out as reprehensible behaviour.
It’s unfortunate these things have to happen as for one I was quite entertained and thrilled with the passing move and Webber’s fight back. Very dramatic and I thought very inevitable. I think Webber’s sour grapes were more to do with the fact he had genuine pace at that circuit, despite not capitalizing on that during qualifying, that coupled with his brilliant start and good decision making for his first pit stop, he was genuinely quick and deserving of the win hence he could relax when the order came through. I felt if he got the spot more due to luck and lacked the speed to contain Seb he would have ate humble pie and admitted the better man won. Hence I think Webber’s sour grapes are totally justifiable. I think the team order is understandable due to the difficulty with the tires.
Webber still has the hunger and speed, let’s hope he can use this fire to mount another strong championship challenge. If he can it is going to be fireworks for the rest of the season between he and Seb. Bring it on.
Gloves are off aren’t they? They should now be free to race but that bringing the cars home are mandatory in both cases. No one has control on the pit wall so may as well let ’em loose….fans will love it….good for red bull juvenile image as well!!
Pretty sure webber will be more determined than ever and if i were him i would put Seb through the ringer and teach the schumi clone a lesson.
His last season at Red Bull must be a certainty now so go out in a blaze of glory i say….
For me it wasn’t really about team orders it was about deceit and winning with a blatant unfair advantage (i.e. engine maps and game plan).
I think t-shirts on Webbers side of the garage are mandatory for China saying ‘Don’t be silly Seb…..’ …break the ice nicely….
As seems perennial with Vettel, he may well have said sorry but his actions show he doesn’t mean it. Despite this much vaunted apology to the RBR crew, he is still telling all and sundry elsewhere (who today include Formula1.com and Bild) that he misunderstood the whole “multi-21” order and didn’t do anything deliberate. It smacks of the hollow dissembling of a double glazing salesman. Marko (described by Benson of the Beeb today as “Red Bull boss”, which seems about right given Horner’s limp behaviour) now seems to have swung behind him as per, rather than the slightly more critical stance he took immediately after the race, so all systems normal there. If Webber has even begun to think about trusting Vettel then he isn’t the man his father seems to believe him to be.
ONLY time will tell how this saga develops and in turn teaches the young people demographic target how to behave as a mature adult.
growing mature is a process which is challenging on many fronts.
the meaning of TEAM (which does have a ME in it), as defined in this age of i ( me, myself & my bubble ) combined with corporate type mutimillion dollar funding by brands that promote bullying, confrontation and adversarial relationships in general is on trial during the rest of this silly season.
Excellent synopsis Joe. I think that those missed points will be a pebble in Webber’s shoe all season… this is part of a long term issue that will only be resolved when one of them leaves the team.
Let’s not forget that it was Mark who first ignored team orders in Silverstone ’11 and then repeated the stunt last year in Brazil (according to Horner). Trust between them, if ever existed, is long gone. What pains me here is the double standards shown by most of the press.
What influence did these suppose events have on the result? That is the important point. The answer is none.
Suppose events? As for Brazil I guess we will have to trust on Horner, so you are right on that one. For Silverstone 2011, Mark Webber wrote on his BBC column that not only he deliberately ignored the 3s gap order as he felt entitled and good about it. Sure, if we are talking about the result intended by Vettel and RBR, then it is none, you are right again. Anyway, my point wasn’t even the influence on the results or who ignored first team orders. My point was what influence did the fact that Vettel knew Webber had previously done it when he was racing and what would the reaction from the world be if it was Webber stealing a victory from Vettel… Besides, I assume that for any team it is a problem any driver ignoring orders despite of the outcome.
That Seb fell back into the pack and just like Jenson in 2009 was susceptible to a collision. Everyone was surprised that the left rear corner survived. I’m not doubting that Webber intended that chain of events to happen, and quite respect him for holding his own, but to keep claiming that Webber did nothing at Brazil 2012, despite his team boss and most of the rest of the press (BBC for example) does seem to be flogging a dead horse…
The point is the result.
Joe, if I may, Vettel came through Brazil in spite of Webb doing all he could to scupper his progress.
I know it’s not popular to say so right now, but I’m pretty certain Vettel will be judged to have done the right thing at KL 2013.
FACT: If Mark was determined to win he would have taken this win. We must be truthful about this.
That is your opinion. In Brazil Sebastian won the title. Thus there was no need for team orders.
Joe, it was NOT doing the right thing. If Webber had intent and didn’t make it work then that doesn’t mean he didn’t have intent. A guy who cheats at cards and doesn’t win is still a cheat. If Webber has demonstrated that he is not prepared to follow the team’s instructions then he can’t complain when Vettel decides to ignore them.
Clearly it is not intolerable for team or driver – or they see no better alternatives. RBR keep on asking Webber back and he keeps on accepting the invitation.
The result is the point.
Webber was told bevor Brazil to act in the team’s best interest. He didn’t obey and raced Vettel instead by sqeezing him towards the pitwall meaning Vettel had to break earlier which resulted in being thrown into the claws of Senna, resulting in car damage and a tough fight to still rescue the title. Without Webber’s action and a damaged car as a result one might assume that Vettel would have finished on the podium. So one might assume Webber not behaving in the best team spirit cost RBR a podium in Brazil, Vettel’s podium.
In Silverstone Webber ignored team orders as well by trying to overtake Vettel for second place. He could’t do it because their cars were about the same speed but told everyone afterwards that he was ignoring team orders.
In Malaysia Webber chose the hard tyre for the last stint while Vettel was on a different strategy and used the medium tyre for the last stint which he saved by not using it in Q1. Hence Vettel had a tyre that was .6 second faster than Webber’s and that made the difference why he was able to overtake Webber.
I generally like Webber, so this is not written with bias, but it’s the result that counts? So if Vettel had not made it past Webber, all would be forgiven/ignored? What’s the difference between Silverstone and Malaysia other than one got past where the other didn’t? As for the Brazil movements not resulting in Vettel winning the WDC, if Senna had lopped off his rear wing, would Webber then be to blame?
If your auntie had balls, what would she be?
Silverstone 2011 was completely different…he didn’t pass him!
Satire? Intent is irrelevant, only the ability to overtake?
But there’s the odd thing…remember who Mark’s manager is and the kind of team orders he gives…
Now that’s a little low tarring Mark with Flavio becuase he is associated with him.
For Seb this seems to have been a simple question of “forgiveness or permission.”
Fairly easy to apologize profusely in the aftermath. But I suspect he has no regret whatsoever, and if confronted with the same situation in the future would not immediately “do the right thing.” And ultimately, is it not exactly this type of ruthlessness that makes great champions.
I wonder if Seb’s relative youth makes him a less sympathetic character at this stage in his career. If a grizzled, steely-eyed veteran like Mansell had pulled this I suspect the response would have been different. But then, that was an era before overwhelming global and social media, so perhaps comparisons are tricky.
Is any of this really new? I thought Webber already felt that he was constantly driving against his team.
If I were Webber I would consider all bets off the table and go for it, he doesn’t have an awful lot to loose at this stage just so long as he keeps himself on the right side of revenge by NOT taking his team-mate out in the process. Then we’d really know Red Bull’s stance on equality!
Evidently, Red Bull team orders are a charade designed to advantage Vettel. The whole team is dedicated to Vettel and their results show the effectiveness of this strategy but why all the subterfuge? Vettel has to lie to Webber in order to what, suggest some sort of fairness in the treatment of the second driver? So, Vettel’s integrity is worth 8 points and it’s assumed that people will forget that fact soon enough. This speaks to the character of the team and further illustrates the moral vacuum of Formula One presently.
Lol. Moral vacuum? F1 isn’t tiddily winks. Teams are in it for the money. Quaint ideas of honor and morality take a back seat to winning, which translates to money. Why risk a sure thing by letting teammates go at each other.
Say, for example, a team does the “honorable” thing and lets the drivers race. Driver A crashes into B trying to pass. The team nets zero points. You think that was a good decision? Second hypothetical: team does the “honorable” thing and lets the drivers race. Tires get thrashed, allowing driver C to catch up, or necessitating a pit stop. Neither A or B win because they used up their tires. Good decision?
Well, at least they’d have their moral victory. That and a dollar will buy a cup of coffee.
Actually the teams are not in it for money. They all have other aims. If they were in it for money there would be a budget cap and everyone would make a great deal more.
What I object to is the line taken by a surprising number of pundits – and race fans too – that Vettel’s actions were somehow the credentials of a true champion. “He’s so determined to be the best that he won’t be slowed by team orders,” only works if the guy you’re racing against is actually racing. It’s like the famous Citroen 2CV ad campaign campaign: “FASTER THAN A FERRARI. A Citroen 2CV travelling at 65mph is faster than a Ferrari travelling at 60mph.”
+1
Andy – But not all champions are made equal, Schumacher won seven titles, but for a lot of people he will never measure up to other drivers who never won a title, such as Stirling Moss.
I suppose in a similar way to Vettel; Nelson Piquet won three titles, but I’m sure his behavior means he will never be held in half the regard as a lot of his peers.
I guess it depends what’s important to you as a person and a fan. Is it winning, or the way you go about your business?
Good point about Moss, a man and a sportsman. I think of the likes of him and others of his ilk and what they are made of. At the end of the day/life….
Agreed. Ever since Senna and then followed up by Schumacher, taking massive risks, both on yours and other drivers aprts, and winning at all cost seem to be the basis for realling wanting to win. Forgot Raikkonen, Prost etc…. Sure there is always whining and team play, but so many times have I read what you said and the general belief that being selfish and selfcentered are positives for a champion.
If there’s one thing people like to see is competition, racing… not one guy going way too far and then taking the spoils a la schumacher or Vettel
I think people miss the point about Senna. The celebrated move in Suzuka was not about winning the championship it was symbolic revenge. Yes, the title was won but that was not the goal. Senna was I believe a very honorable man and very honest. I am sure others will disagree but I’m not going to get into fights about that unless the people involved actually knew the bloke personally.
Joe, let me ask you one question. How would Senna be remembered if Alain Prost had been killed in that Suzuka crash?
Have you ever watched the crash? It is a ridiculous suggestion.
You never know what is going to happen if a car crashes at that speed.
That is the whole point. It was not very high speed.
Sure you jest?! Senna drove into Prost after roughly 7 seconds of full acceleration from a standing start on a down-hill straight.
Without looking at the telemetry, they were both driving at 200+ kph, which I would very much consider very high speed.
Well Joe, they were doing around 240 kph when they crashed. I just checked the FIA 1990 yearbook, with Bob Constanduros as editor, and you as one of the contributors. At page 240 you see a picture of Senna’s car after the crash. HIs front wing and his front left wheel are gone. A Henry Surtees-like accident could have happened. But, reading your reply’s, you are probely a (to) big Senna fan, and that is obviously bad for your judgement.
Well don’t waste your valuable time reading such an idiot then.
Agree. However, I have always believed they we the general public – has never had the complete picture of Senna (not movie). Even if we did we would not understand nor appreciate it……..
In the end, none of this will matter.
Vettel will win another championship, if not this year, then soon enough. Webber, on the other hand, hasn’t moved on from his 2010 errors that threw his one chance away.
Maybe, if only he could forgive himself for that, he could enjoy the privilege of driving the quickest car in the sport, there are 19 drivers on the grid and countless in other series or unemployed that would gladly take his job.
But so is the curse of the Irvines, Barrichellos, the Coulthards, Massas and Webbers, that in the end, no matter how many pole positions, quickest laps or Grand Prix victories you collect, there always was that one moment, when you could’ve moved past ‘that’ guy and claim it all. But you failed.
Quite an interesting management situation for the RB boss (whoever that may be…)
Logically, the only meaningful penalty for Vettel would be for him to have to relinquish P1 to Webber following in P2 – if that situation arises during the course of the season.
Should that then occur, I wonder how we would all react?
A summarization it is but not a good one in my view. Everybody who cared to read all the press releases knew that Red Bull put out a team order in Turkey 2010 and Mark Webber with his race engineer decided they did not want to follow that order. Sure, Vettel was ultimately responsible for the accident but he was under the impression that his team mate would move away for him, which explains why he underestimated the space that he was ultimately given on track. Webber closed the gap as much as he possibly could without directly causing a collision and delivered much of the conditions that ultimately led to the crash. Only some people do not want to see this. There was also ample reason to give the one wing of the new design to Vettel in Silverstone. He had used it and approved it in practise, so Newey who runs the team ultimately was pushing to give it to him. Again in my view a pretty good reason for the team decision. Mark is a second rate driver going by his results if you compare him with guys like Massa. Imo he deserves no #1 treatment if you go by merit and potential.
Werner,
You should write fiction……..you seem to have talent for fact not getting in the way of rubbish writing.
Of the 2 redbull F1 drivers, one has ethics and one doesn’t , which one would you trust with your life?
As an example of trust. I respect Joe’s column as he has historically proven to report accurately without bias. I also know he attends GP’s as he is seen regularly in the background during telecasts. You should stop reading stories from those that don’t attend and just perform selected plagiarism mixed with self generated gossip.
I read the press release:
http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/GP-Turkey,-Sunday–Team-Reaction-021242854711644
“Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early”. CH.
What team order? What decision? Got a link?
So Vettel underestimates and crashes due to being “under the impression” of “team orders” ? Hmmm…So Mark could have just crashed into Vettel and said ” I underestimated” and you would be OK with that? Vettel has crashed into Mark a couple of times costing him a good chance of a win, never the reverse.
Quite the driver, but he stuffed up big time in the last race as everyone agrees. Let’s discuss the current situation.
‘Vettel was ultimately responsible for the accident but he was under the impression that his team mate would move away for him .. ‘
Under the impression? Is this an assumption from your part? Why in the world would a F1 driver just opens the door to be overtaken?
‘Webber closed the gap as much as he possibly could without directly causing a collision and delivered much of the conditions that ultimately led to the crash.’
You just contradicted yourself there.
‘He had used it and approved it in practise, so Newey who runs the team ultimately was pushing to give it to him. ‘
Newey runs the team? That is news to me.
Apologies are free.
The lack of any true consequences strongly reinforces the long held belief that whomever is running the show at Red Bull, it is certainly not Christian Horner.
One finds it hard to imagine that Horner received much respect from the paddock leadership prior to this. Were Horner to have stood up to Vettel, to have put his job on the line against Vettel receiving a punishment, one expects it would raise his esteem in the paddock a hundred fold. Even if such a stand were to result in his sacking, he wouldn’t long want for top job offers.
But now, a “Team Manager” being pushed around by his 25 year old driver… Horner’s authority and esteem have certainly dropped to new lows.
Indeed. Horner has wings where his balls should be.
(hope that’s not too obscure a reference)
So Red Bull gives him…
… a vasectomy
…a surprise squeeze in the nether regions…
…his balls on a plate
Nice first line Random. Apropo to Horner as much as SV. As there was so much time to ask SV to give the place back that I could not help but think that SV leading was what Horner and whoever he discussed it with (and surely there were discussions?) were ultimately most comfortable with. Words of ‘equality’ afterwards meaningless.
Would he/they have been silent if it MW/SV roles were reversed?
Apologies are free? I’m not so sure. It’s often not easy to look other people in the eye and admit that you were wrong. It’s a confession of guilt. It can be easier said than done.
True but when you have gained 7 points and another win to add to your collection, it comes easily.
I can’t speak for others, but I’ve always found it rather easy to do… it lessens the weight… especially when compared to carrying around a load of brittle ego…
I’ve been thinking of this for some time . . .
Can Vettel actually help himself when he is racing?
He has a special talent of being able to be in the zone to the exclusion of everything else, be at one with car, and produce exceptional laps. Anyone who has raced at lower levels (and mine was amateur and very low level) may have at some time had that feeling of complete unison, man and machine, where everything might seem even other worldly. Vettel seemed genuinely shocked enough at his actions and that has made me wonder if he is indeed on some other psychological level, almost beyond reaching by radio from the pits. It may simply be explained as just red mist which I have seen in just a few laps from indoor karters upwards.
I’m no apologist for Vettel – it would make him unpredictable, uncontrollable and untrustworthy as a team player. But if this is the case, Red Bull must know this is unprofessional and yet they accept the consequences in exchange for the brilliance he offers. If so, I would say that the situation is unlikely to change.
Maybe that explains Christian Horner’s rather weak radio protestations.
He seemed to know that an instruction to Vettel to give the place back would be be ignored. Mark Webber almost certainly knows if that is the real situation.
Good point John M, although we could be mistaken for thinking Dr Marko has in his left pocket a mobile phone with a direct connection to Mr Mateschitz, and in his right pocket he has a transmitter which sends a coded signal to a receiver in Sebs helmet. Smoke and mirrors, Heaven forbid!
That is quite a good argument really but Vettels comment that Mark was too slow followed by an almost instructive ‘Get him out of the way!’ showed something else. Rosberg requested to pass, Vettel tells his team to make space for him.
Then Webber responded and pulled away.
As an F1 fan since 1964 and one all too familiar with media manipulation ( due to my chosen profession ) I’m beginning to seriously wonder if we’re all simply falling for a well scripted, overtly promoted ‘ Soap Opera ‘ episode on behalf of Bernie and the FIA .. who’s only intent is to get F1 more media attention than the ‘ sport ‘ alone is capable of garnering . I’m not accusing mind you . But I am ” Wond’ring Aloud “
Apologies are just words it’s action what counts now.
Seventeen races left so let’s see what happens. Speaking as a fan it was great to see Seb challenge Mark, and Mark could of easily taken him or both of them off, with the subsequent blame squarely on Seb!
The biggest disappointment is team orders when we are only 2 races into the season and roughly 25% (15 laps?) of last Sundays race left to run.
Seb’s got what he wanted, which IMO, is the points lead over Mark, since it is generally accepted that the points leader gets priority on things like strategy and new bits and bobs. Unless he gives that advantage back to Mark, the apologies are meaningless.
Regarding the Silverstone wing story, I read somewhere though, Mark had decided to put on the old wings because he felt the new wings weren’t doing it for him. Then they gave his (unused) new wings to Vettel, and that’s when Mark threw a tantrum… I’d rather Mark win the WDC than Vettel, but I don’t feel he’s a 100% innocent victim either…
I read somewhere that the world is flat…
Source Please!
No, it wasn’t Mark’s decision. After P3 both cars were prepared with the older spec wings because both the new wings were considered to be damaged, but upon closer inspection the wing that had been on Mark’s car turned out to be OK. Here’s what Horner told Noble from Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85433
The team orders thread has run its course. Everyone has had their say. Obviously not everyone will agree. Apparently it is impossible even to agree on when team orders were broken and when they were not broken. Enough is enough. All further team orders comments will not be published unless they add something of value to the question.
Spot-on; ‘papering over the cracks’ sums it all up….perfectly.
The season will be fascinating to watch. Will Vettel gift a victory back to Webber to re-address the balance? Will either team mate support the other with the most points in the closing races? Only then will we see Vettels humility.
Let’s not forget Webber squeezing Vettel against the pit wall at the start of last seasons final round in Brazil. They were already on frosty terms so what little respect they had for each other must surely be erased. I fear Vettel will rue his selfishness in Sepang. He’ll be fighting the rest of the championship without a rear gunner…
As you said, Vettel had no rear gunner in Brazil last year, so Malaysia would not Change matters a lot.
The only team principal who should let his driver disobey a clear order from the pit wall was Jack Brabham.
7 points down, but in reality Webber lost 14 points against Vettel. In 2010 he lost the championship to Vettel by…14 points.
This will be an interesting season.
Webber is between a rock and a hard place – possibly his last season in F1 and in the best team at the moment…he can hardly throw his toys out and leave…
The English speaking press love Mark Webber. He talks in plain English and what he says means more to native English speakers than to non-natives. He has a bigger conversation than most F1 drivers and can really drive a car.
English speaking bloke, sitting in a car made in England (with anonymous sponsorship); Williams ensured that an Australian became World Champion.
Yawn.
You yawn because you do not value Webber.
I cannot remember what I was yawning about but it was dull. I think Webber is very good, always have done.
Two wrongs don’t make it right, but there have been situations when Webber ignored teamorders – Brasil last year for example. Given that context, I think it shows that RedBull just don’t have both of their drivers under control and both of them have been wrong. This time it’s Vettel.
People keep accusing Mark of breaking team orders, but the results do not bear this out. And the results are all that matter.
Joe, he has publically admitted as much in the past. Based on your suggestion, had Webber successfully passed Vettel (when ignoring those team orders) it would be a different matter?! That seems somewhat backwards.
I thought the biggest problem here was that Vettel ignored an order from his employer – not that he was successful in completing the pass – as it shows little control on Horners part.
I’ve two hypothetical scenarios that I’m interested what people think:
1.) Had it been Vettel coming out of the pits and Webber was coming down the straight, does anyone think Mark would have just sat back and not had a run at Seb?
2.) If however, that had happened and Webber had held station in 2nd, then would Seb and RBR not have be accused of favouritism?
I was appalled at what Vettel did last Sunday, but, as time has passed and more has come out about them both ignoring orders I’m beginning to find it hard to see what the difference is between what Seb did and what Mark has done in the past, other that the fact Seb completed the move.
Seriously Joe, what are you on? You keep trotting out the same line – ‘the results don’t bear out that Webber broke team orders…’ Really?! Surely you’re smarter than that. Someone has already commented that a cheat at cards who doesn’t ultimately win is still a cheat. What other analogies do you need? ‘Oh I know I fired my gun at him your honour, but since I missed I really don’t think I should be considered a bad person.’
Webber tried to bypass team orders in Brazil. He didn’t get the result he wanted. The reason why he didn’t get the result he wanted is one of the reasons that he’s a number 2 driver within Red Bull – because he’s simply not in the same class as Vettel. But you seem to adore picking and choosing examples of teams and drivers that have done the same type of thing, yet treating them differently. It’s really rather odd – Senna was great despite / because of why he crashed into Prost, yet Schumacher was a cad for the same on Hill and Villeneuve / Mallya is a liar because he denied that a contract was about to be signed, yet when Williams have done it they’re only protecting their business / Red Bull are perfectly entitled to implement team orders, yet when Ferrari have done it they’re ruthless and unsporting / Vettel is in the wrong for obeying his racer’s instinct and going for the win, yet Webber is guilty of no such thing because he didn’t manage to pull off the move…
No doubt you’ll reply (if at all) with some withering one-liner, suggesting that I’m under no obligation to read your blog, or that if this is my opinion then I’m in the wrong because I don’t attend all the grands prix etc etc etc. But this isn’t the point. I like your blog very much, as many do. But these inconsistencies are just insulting to your readers, and they do you no service at all, redolent as they are of the fudgings of a typical politician.
Not to mention they’re just faintly absurd.
The reason I reply with one liners is that I have to make a living and have more important things to do than all this mental masturbation about what is or is not a team order. You can believe what you like. All I am trying to do is to explain what happened and why.
I absolutely LOVE that reply. I laughed so hard and so loud. Honestly. Great reply Joe.
I am stealing that term “mental masturbation”. Hahahaha.
You’d be one funny guy over a beer in a bar I’m sure.
Ditto pmsl
Good one “mental masturbation” ………….
Looking at the bigger picture, chances are Vettel would have finished on the podium in Brazil without Webber’s squeeze. So Webber’s actions might have cost RBR and Vettel a podium in Brazil. Just compare that to the reality how Massa supported Alonso in the Brazilian race, letting him past easily a couple of times.
They did not.
Wasn’t the point of the team orders to save the engine for the next race?
If Vettel’s engine should fail during a race due to the extra wear he’s put on it…
Theres a German word for that.
Schadenfreude.
It’ll get much worse if Mark comes second to Seb in the WC this year 6 points behind…
Correction. When Webber lost the extra 7 points for win (18 instead of 25 pt.), but Vettel gained an extra 7 over him (25 instead of 18 pt.).
So the net difference to Webber’s WDC position relative to Vettel is -14 points. So, it’ll get much worse if Webber loses to Vettel by 13 points or less, or is exactly 14 points behind (should have been a draw awaiting count-back).
Nobody will forget this. Ever.
You have drivers who race for themselves, or drivers who race for the team – you can’t have both in one team. One or the other, it doesn’t bother me, but not both.
If I owned a team, I’d look at who has the best chance of winning the championship for the team. Vettel is proven, Webber is sporatic.
Webber is a domestique, as is Massa.
I’m sure it sucks being #2, but in cycling it’s normal.
Rather wide sweeping generalizations in this comment.
chrisyurhee – don’t forget Massa was almost World Champ in 2008 and at present is ahead of Alonso in the points.
I can only hope Mark repays the favour when the call is “multi 12” and then apologises with a large smile, and asks “so, can you hear me now?”
Webber’s trust in his team is fragile at best. The real issue is Vettel’s disregard for team orders and Horner’s inability to enforce them during the race. If I was Dietrich Mateschitz, I would be contacting both drivers directly and telling them you follow Horner’s orders or you’re out. What I don’t understand is why Mateschitz lets Marko protect Vettel and denigrate Webber. Joe, wouldn’t a lot of the friction between Vettel and Webber be alleviated by restricting Marko’s role to that on new driver development?
Mateschitz does what Mateschitz wants. If he thinks Horner and Marko are the best choices then that is his call…
There’s no point having a dog and barking yourself…
Last time I looked, RB have won last 3 championships, if I were Mateschitz I would be letting the guys get on with it.
Who knows – could be that in order to get that extra bit of performance and effort out of the 2 drivers, Marko has found that they need different forms of push: for Vettel it’s when Webber is in front; for Webber its when you tell him he’s number 2?
I would like to see in the future a vettel team mate from a country with more clout. Imagine if vettel did that to button or Marko said those things about Hamilton. The UK papers would shred them, could red bull commercially live with the consequences? Or imagine a US driver being treated so shabbily, how much would that effect their tooth rot sales?
Scott Speed…
LOL. Priceless reply.
using the word, “Speed”, loosely…
Ha ha! Speed indeed! I should clarify, a team mate of comparable pace!
“Sebastian Vettel has apologised in person to Red Bull Racing staff for ignoring team orders during the Malaysian Grand Prix, something which commenters on this blog who thought his moves were fine should perhaps take on board.”
And? Is this supposed to mean that Vettel is some kind of God who knows all the answers?
Sure we will find out soon, maybe at the next race, what Mark will do when the order comes down.. Multi12.
Cant wait to find out.
This is getting ridiculous.
Joel’s point is that RBR have made an absolute dogs breakfast of managing their PR. The only thing RBR have done worse is manage their drivers.
Now that their public image is broken and their ability to manage their drivers has been frittered away, both by weakness and lost opportunity over a period of years, they have now to rely on Adrian Newey’s technical prowess to get their two one car teams to achieve the result that Dietrich Masteschitz is spending so much money on.
Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if the RBR and STR chassis were swapped along with the technical teams and the whole mess was left to Vergne and Ricciardo.
Joe, do you think Mark Webber is really as good as Vettel if he was not stymied by his no 2 status i.e. if Mark was the no 1 driver and gets equipment that does not fail him regularly (why is it only his car that gets hit with KERs failure and him that gets dodgy pit strategies most of the time)
I find Webber hard to read really. 2010 – he just missed out after leading the championship a long time but crashing in Korea and choking at Abu Dhabi did him in. 2011 – a plain horror year. 2012 – took 2 glorious wins at Silverstone and Monaco and on par with Vettel a long while but proceeded to fade in final third of season. Is he really like what Vettel’s no 1 fanboy Marko says: “Unbeatable on some occassions but chokes under pressure most other times”?
A driver is as good as his last result.
Vettel is the chosen one, and deservedly so. Three time world champion. Webber has maybe won three races in all his F1 career. Common….
Ill informed tosh
3 or 9 doesnt really make a difference. he was destroyed by his teammate for these 3 last years…
Ill informed tosh, indeed.
Nine. Should have been ten, but for sly theft.
I wonder if he had won 3 WDC if Webber had attacked him at all races.
If Mark should win those races he drives well enough to win and the team management gets behind him to make that happen ie by not impeding his good effort, then all should be well. I’m not so sure this will be the outcome but I don’t mind being wrong about that. I think Mark is good enough to be world champion but he either needs a run of lucky breaks or Mr Mateschitz to be less devoted to the young Vettel.
Sebastian, time to stop the grovelling.
The ‘spin’ Vettel is doing is completely self serving inclusive of apologizing to the team, this is damage control no doubt constructed and coached by team principles. What Vettel was not prepared for was the damage to his reputation his arbitrary decision immediately had. The largest transgression was insulting the public with bold faced contradictory lies in an attempt to make excuses, no one bought the Red Bulls**t but the revelation of supreme arrogance and dishonesty has exposed a very unattractive character whom by underestimating the fan base insults their intelligence, so popularity is taking a hammering as people resent being treated as fools.
He should have just said in the last 2 seasons the point margin was far too close WDC being decided in the last race, so my apologies but I banked the points because I disagreed with the strategy, still wrong to go against the team but merit in the argument and no insult to the public, he would have found some admirers.
The boys classless as he probably thinks he’s one upped everyone with spin but still has the points. It’s very transparent and no amount of apologizing changes the fact your still the thief with the loot. Why the thief? because your teammate let you artificially close and had his engine turned down so was that really racing?
Talk about a public relations gaff, I hope his endorsements tank. The grovelling is becoming a bigger turn off, just shut up, grow up and get some integrity. Earn back some respect, don’t talk it back. As for the neutered Horner? Time for a ball transplant. Go see Ross for lessons in being assertive.
Honour is like a Ming Vase.
If you drop it, then the pieces are not simply ‘put back together’. It takes along time to glue the shards back into form, and it never holds the same appearance or value as it did prior.
The only thought I have about all this is that if I were Seb, I would be playing the game properly to ensure that the three championships I had won were given full credit. If the general public becomes convinced he has in any way been protected through his 3 championships, then this will devalue them. I would have thought Seb would be trying to distance himself from Marko, from Webber’s comments and infer “I can win championships without all this political manourvering”…which he can.
What he did was daft, he has only hurt his reputation. Webber also knows when to put the boot in, although it was justified.
Who knows this may eventually force Seb into changing to a team where he can prove his credentials?
I notice that no one mentioned that Christian had Vettel in handcuffs and a full set of chains as he was dragged round to apologise to all and sundry.
Now unless he has truly seen the light, (and I very much doubt it) the forced apology and humiliation in front of the whole factory, might just leave him seething inside, ready to erupt at any time. Can his innate intelligence keep him under control or will it fail when the pressure is on?
Like Lauder, Marko seems to have been placed in the team to make spurious public comments designed to cause conflict and disruption, strange that they actually need someone to do that, most teams do the opposite.
Horner also went on the record to state that “Mark would have done the same thing”.
I wonder if he confirmed that with Mark?
The team might forget, Horner might forget, Marko forgot by Sunday evening.
But with “uniifying” comments like Horner’s, Mark will not be forgetting a thing.
Horner would say anything to justify himself.
Pamper a child with everything you can and see if he behaves like a Vettel. I am pretty sure the kid will. Precisely why parents who groom kids mix love and freedom with disciplining and the occasional exhibit of anger. For Vettel to learn this, he needs to be in struggling team and this ain’t going to happen in Red Bull. And not with a support group inside the team covering him. Probably never will have to work hard to earn respect given he now has 3 titles.
Mark’s reaction was not only graceful, and it was very sporting to not accuse anyone in the team. Did his early carreer mould this into him, I reckon very much so.
Marvelously well said.
Vettel should have checked how it worked out for Reutemann when he pulled this stunt on Jones…
I’ve heard that Red Bull pays its drivers and team members quite a significant bonus for wins and points gained, just wondering, which driver and pit crew got the bonus for this win?
I doubt the extra money makes much difference to the drivers, but it’s probably a different story for the pit crew.
This is an interesting point. John Watson talked about punishment, this is probably the only realistic way to punish Vettel, take his bonus for the race win and give it to Webber. Do they have individual pit crew’s I think not so I would imagine pit crew’s bonus is assured.
Well said Jack Flash – perfect.
I think too much emphasis is placed on the world championship, although it is obvious why the teams and others do emphasize it so much. I enjoy each race as a very special event.
As for the little german prince, there’s a Funny thing about Karma.
Webber is as very honorable man and a very gifted driver, especially when you consider his size and weight. The teams aren’t able to ballast as much low in the frame of the car as they can with the lighter drivers.
Beyond the racing incident, it’s the apology that bugs me. I’d be happier with Vettel if he said something like “Yeah I did it. I’m racing for a championship, and my place in history, and I’ll do it again in China if the situation presents itself.”
Now THAT would be a champion.
from a purely bored and bitter point of view (3 world champs in a row tedium) im wondering if vettels action would put Ferrari off in the future, but they want to win no matter what so thats unlikely, and also it would mean Vettel staying with Newey which would be disastrous for the everyone except vettel fans.
“something which commenters on this blog who thought his moves were fine should perhaps take on board.”
Doing whatever it takes to win does include saying some words of apology and shaking someones hand. Seb still got what he wanted, and will get away with it, so he did the right thing for him. It might not be pretty, but that is one of the reasons why he is the champ.
Well if they’ve shook hands then all is forgotten….this Horner fellow reeks of mental weakness.
” It was clear to any sane person that the German had caused the crash, but Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko blamed Webber and team principal Christian Horner impaled himself on the fence, rather than saying was obvious for all to see.”
I love that line! I’ll never stop saying it, your writing style is superb. So happy I am a full fledged subscriber now as well. GP+ is awesome, to say the least.
I can’t believe people here still clutching at Silverstone straws!?
Seems Vettel fanbois can’t handle their boy given any criticism.
Silverstone – Mark did both, initially ignore team orders but than obeying once team order was given again, the end result did not change, they finished as they were.
Sepang totally different story, did Mark and Vettel finish as they were before team orders …. NO! Why? …….. because Vettel disobeyed and disrespected his team.
I wish Mark bloody disobeyed the “multi 21” team order and raced Vettel with his engine turned up as normal.
Great article, Joe.
For me the heart of this issue is not about team orders or no team orders. It’s a question of betrayal and mistrust. Vettel’s pass on Mark was an unfair one because Mark had duly turned down his engine as instructed by the team. He was assured by the team (twice) that they were not fighting and so Mark lost a considerable amount of time preserving tyres with his engine tuned down under this belief.
IMO Seb only won the race because of the team orders and choosing to ignore them. Without the orders I doubt Seb would have got within striking distance if Mark was at full race speed until the end of the race.
I’d prefer, as a fan, to have seen Mark and Seb fight fairly until the end of the race, but the fact was the team orders were there so Red Bull could secure there 1-2, and they were clearly not there to favour any particular driver in the WDC standings. Had Seb been ahead of Mark from the last round of pistops, he’d have benefitted from the same order.
I know if I disobeyed my employers to the extent Seb did last Sunday, I’d probably be out of a job by now.
I think Vettel thinks he is irreplacable and can do whatever he likes at Red Bull. Personally I think he needs a big bite of humble pie. I think John Watson’s notion of banning Vettel from a race and properly reestablishing authority within the team is spot on, although I doubt Christian Horner would have the balls to do it.
I think Mark was the true hero on Sunday, having been so horribly robbed of a well-deserve win, to have the maturity to keep his anger (mostly) behind Red Bull closed doors.
Wayne.
…and now Horner has entirely recanted and thrown himself firmly behind Seb. I’ll bet MW Arden board meetings are fun…