This is an article from The Independent in London. It needs no further comment.
This is the account of one Shia member of staff at the Bahrain International Circuit, which hosts the Grand Prix, who was arrested in April. Still suffering from injuries inflicted by his interrogators, he has now left the country. He wishes to remain anonymous and is referred to as AB throughout:
“AB’s ordeal began when three cars full of security forces arrived at the BIC offices on the morning of 7 April. They went floor by floor searching for people whose names were on their list. When they arrived at the floor of AB’s office, they called out his name. They immediately took him away, beating him as they went along the corridor. At least 23 other BIC staff were arrested that day, he says.
The motor race employees were blindfolded and handcuffed using electric cable and were taken to Riffa West police station. Once there, they were led to a room where the group were all beaten with sticks and cables for hours. They were accused of having celebrated the fact that the Formula One had been cancelled earlier in the year. AB denies this, saying that as an employee of BIC, he depends for his livelihood on the events held at BIC, particularly the Formula One.
AB was taken to an interrogation room. He was interrogated about the number of times he went to Pearl Roundabout, the centre of pro-democracy protests. He said he had been there twice, but the officer forced him to say that he had been there 20 times. At one point an officer put AB’s head between his legs and flipped his body over, and he lost consciousness. Beatings continued. The verbal abuse he experienced was full of anti-Shia sectarian hatred. The officers called him “son of muta’a” – a temporary marriage permitted in Shia Islam – and “son of a bitch”. At around 7pm he was told to strip naked and was again beaten severely. The cable around his hands became extremely tight because of severe swelling. The police station was over-flowing with at least 20 people sleeping on the floor in one cell with barely enough space to lie down. They were not given blankets and the air-conditioning was kept very low so it was too cold to sleep.
This treatment lasted for three days until they were transferred to Dry Dock prison, beatings continuing all the while. At Dry Dock the situation was much better and there was no more torture. AB was given sun cream and told to sit in the sun so that injuries from his torture wounds could heal. He was freed after 20 days and told to sign papers banning him from talking to the media.
Today his hands tremble and he suffers from numbness in his arms as well as anxiety attacks and paranoia.
joeblogsf1 
What’s the link, Joe?
I’d like to share it across Facebook.
I have no specific reason to question such reports and recountings however I treat both sides of any political reporting with the same high level of scepticism. There are too many vested interests to believe most of what is written from either side.
I would also suggest that other countries that F1 goes to have had dubious records on human rights – like Turkey & China yet no-one seems to be shouting about the abuses there within the media when F1 attends every year.
Decisions will be made based on the prevailing political view a little nearer the time of the race.
Right now I think the calls for the race not to be held smack of double standards.
Really can’t agree with you more.
My issue does come with where you draw the line, I don’t think we should be in Bahrain, but then I also don’t think we should be in China, or Turkey either with both of their Human Rights records being pretty bad. And I’m sure that there are some other countries that I’ve forgotten too.
Where would you draw the line?
Peter Fox, Well said!
It is shocking to here of the horrendous details recounted first hand. I’m flabbergasted, too, at how there can still be people ignorant and obnoxious enough to present- no, believe- such a view as Peter Fox has. Worrying, too, is how those at the helm of the sport are so detatched from reality. As you’ve mentioned in the past on this blog, Ecclestone appears to have finalised his divorce from reality long ago.
I just read back over a transcript of an interview the Crown Prince gave back in February. He talks about,
‘…overcoming tragedy, healing divisions and rediscovering the fabric that draws this country together…’.
How can those sentiment be reconciled with this report? On that basis alone it makes the decision to go to Bahrain unpalatable as clearly F1 is going to be a ‘PR gloss’.
I really worry that F1 won’t stay away Will they take a view that time heals all? Will people really stop drinking energy drinks, getting mobile phones and buying european cars? Here’s the really big question – how many of us at home will still tune in if the race goes ahead?
Peter Fox – I think you need to have a good look at your definition of “political reporting”. I also don’t believe that you are just an “innocent bystander” – your techniques are too well known for that.
Peter Fox.. re: double standards..
Don’t forget F1 is heading to the US too..
Mosley also in The Telegraph, earning or rather regaining my respect:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/8556714/Max-Mosley-Bahrain-decision-must-be-reversed-or-F1-will-live-to-regret-it.html
but would he have made the call, when he was FIA prez?
maybe he left some puppets behind who can be bribed for something useful, this time. Figuratively, i mean.
Peter Fox,
take a look at the images posted on youtube if you have ANY doubts as to why Bahrain is such a special case, the treatment of Shia staff members at the ROYAL (now there’s a clue for you) Bahrain International Circuit has been widely documented.
Kudos to Mark Webber, Joe & Max Mosley, a less than likely trio attempting to tell it how it should be.
Having witnessed recent exposure of FIFA’s executives thirst for cash, one can only speculate regarding what drove the WMSC to come to such an abhorent decision.
I too would like to see the link.
One thing that I noticed was if s/he was blindfolded how did they know where they were taken.
Even before this report I was upset at how fickle f1 can be with regards to others and I will not be watching come the end of October.
This could be the way forward CVC/Mr Ecclestone to resolve differences of opinion with the teams.
But in all seriousness how can the FIA/CVC/Mr ecclestone even entertain the idea of going to Bahrain. Mark Webber has the right idea, those in power at F1 should show some moral fibre and worry less about contracts/deals/cash etc.
This decision defines what the F1 management is all about, passing the buck to the teams so these spineless money grabbers cannot be held responsible for cancelling a GP.
CVC/FIA/Mr Ecclestone stop playing games and do the RIGHT thing, for once put others before yourselves.
yes peter fox, i also share the very same opinion. the same treatment was handed out a few others picked up at random on the streets of both iraq and afg. and who finished up in gitmo!!!
do i see any demonstrations in austin texas? whatever happened to all the protests about the chinese GP? literally thousands of tibetans lost their lives and still live in a totally repressed state.
I read an interesting article by Chris Sylt on Pitpass putting forward the theory that if FOM/FIA were to cancel the race then FOM would likely have to pay some form of severance/compensation to the Bahrainis. So the reent decision has been made in exoectation that it would be overruled later by Bahrain, absolving FOM of responsibility and saving the payout.
Rich,
If yopu choose to believe Sylt that is your choice. You might like to take note that Sylt has not been to a Formula 1 race in years. The irony of Pitpass is that they do not have one.
I’m unsure what argument is being made when people point out the human rights issues of other countries that host races. Is it that you cannot be outraged by any human rights violation unless you’re outraged by all of them equally?
In an ideal world, people who hold Bahrain accountable for its actions would also use their voice against any such instance. If I cry out against someone being beaten, the reaction shouldn’t be “where were you when everyone else was being beaten?” Ideally, the reaction should be “let’s not beat this one guy.”
Wow!! I hope all.the teams boycot this race. It’s a complete joke. I hear bernie now wants another race at tripoli for historical value. Joke of course. But seriously, we as fans should also boycott the race if it does go ahead
Peter – I agree in some ways…. I would prefer NOT to have a race in Turkey or China or a number of the other countries because as you say the human rights if iffy at best… but you would not have any races if you went too far – you COULD argue that the US should not have a race depending on political bent.
The difference with Bahrain IMO is that F1 is a politically important trophy in such a small country and the conflict is still ongoing (despite what some FIA junket shows)…… I doubt China even knows F1 exists in the larger scheme of things.
link please, i can’t find this anywhere at the independant
Stan,
If you try looking in The IndependEnt…
This is just so horrible.
To Peter Fox’s point there has been a lot of changes in the way the media operates over the past 5-10 years and I really don’t think a Newspaper such as The Independant would publish such a story with investigating it seriously.
It makes me sick to think that the sport that I love would operate in the same buildings as these events occured.
If I was part of the F1 circus I couldn’t face walking the halls where these people were beaten. It’s just horrible and it doesn’t have to be. Every time I go to Australia (my home, though I now live in NY) I love to go visit Albert Park and look in the pit buildings. It makes me proud to be Australian and love F1. If something like this happened there I would be completely devastated and so I can only imagine what “real” Bahrainis must feel.
Call me an optimist but I hope the people in power in Bahrain come to their senses
No double standards here, just drawing the line at recently shooting people.
Robin,
Do you have a better idea?
Seems to me that the race will be an inconvenience for everyone except the powers that be in Bahrain. Nothing will be gained and much could be lost. And Peter, the fact that torture is normal in China does no make it okay to torture people elsewhere. Your kind of rationalizing can be used to justify any kind of abhorrent behavior. Wanna buy a slave? They do that in Albania…
working hard as per usual, Joe.
Hi Peter,
Whilst I understand your point about the dubious human rights records for some other events (even Australia’s treatment of refugees and its indigenous population have come under criticism by the UN, never mind China and Turkey), I see this as being a little different.
The fact that this event will draw so much attention to the country will, in my mind, CREATE more human rights abuses.
The ruling government will surely use the same violent tactics it has used (and continues to use) to snuff out any chance of a protest in the lead-up to the race. This includes firing upon civilians, using armoured vehicles to disperse crowds and beatings/torture of dissidents.
Then add the risks to all involved of an actual protest (or worse) during the event – this race should NOT go ahead.
My 2 cents.
Thank you so much, Joe.
RuariJM: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/at-around-7pm-he-was-told-to-strip-naked-and-was-again-beaten-severely-2292868.html but might be nicer to link to Joe’s blog so he can take the credit for pointing us to the article.
Peter Fox: granted, but if we can stop a third country from adding itself to that list before it gets too ingrained, then so much the better. Not only that, but this case is different in many ways, not least because it is the actual staff at the circuit who have been targeted!
Dear all
Concur with Peter Fox- China’s record of human rights is deplorable.
And, one can only accuse Bernie of being even handed- He will take money, whatever the colour, including blood.
Perhaps, as Formula 1 looks at being seen to be green, it might also look at being seen NOT to associate with dictatorships.
But, hey, it isn’t about the reality, it’s about the perception, and, whereas money talks, the oppressed can’t, except for this time.
I would imagine that the Independent has done all within it’s power to verify this story, and engaged in as much journalistic rigour as is possible.
Thankyou, Joe, for having the spine and the balls to speak out. I shall be writing to the Australian network which telecasts f1, and making it clear that I will not watch it. Or, if I do, it will be to list advertisers, and email them to say I won’t be buying their products.
MarkR
Indeed, what to say about that …
Thanks for the article Joe.
Has this been validated as real, or is it just either printed words OR something someone said?
Hi Peter Fox – So do the human rights atrocities and abuses commited by the UK and the USA count also?
Let’s not have double standards, OK?
f1addicted,
See comment to Simon Bates
If the race DOES go ahead, I for one will NOT be watching.
Maybe if enough people abstain, then Bernie will realise the public opinion and see that he was wrong
We all know how he loves his ratings figures
Peter Fox…..
“Right now I think the calls for the race not to be held smack of double standards.”
What a ridiculous statement! The calls for the race to cancelled are based on stories such as the one Joe has correctly reported. It is not double standards when it is a proven fact that people have been tortured, doctors tried for treating protesters and that there are still Saudi tanks on the streets.
In my view thius race should not and hopefully will not happen.
How many other GP host nations are less than perfect with their own anti Government protesters?
How would an article on Ian Tomlinson sound in the Bahraini press?
simon bates,
If you read the other comments I have explained that this is not about morality, but rather image. I do not think one can compare the abuses of most western countries with Bahrain, but that is not the point. There is either no World Championship, as you can find trouble everywhere if you go looking for it, or one makes a judgement based on its effect on the sport.
Rather surprised to find myself agreeing with Max Mosely, although you can’t deny his intellect.
His point is that F1 goes to many places that have less than perfect records on human rights.
What makes the Bahrain case unique is that F1 is being used specifically by the authorities there as a tool to repair its very damaged image.
This is unlikely to succeed and rather than lifting Bahrains image, will just drag down the image of F1
All those complaining about “double standards” should read what Max has to say. He answers the point about other oppressive regimes – something which does make many of us uncomfortable – with the argument that in this case F1 is being used by an oppressive regime to hide its actions. The situation is thus different in kind from going to countries who have dodgy human rights records – and who is whiter than white these days ? (Answers on a postage stamp …)
I think he is right. Sport may or may not open up a repressive country, and China (Olympics, F1) is a case in point. But F1 is not being used there as a propoganda tool to cover up specific acts of repression, and try to make us believe THAT THEY NEVER HAPPENED.
F1 is being used as window-dressing. Our sport is being made a fool of. With Joe, I struggle to fathom how anyone at the FIA can find this a good idea.
How bizarre that Max is against this, sounds like a good weekend for him!
Seriously, Joe – don’t you worry that your lining yourself up for a ‘special room’ if you attend the Bahrain GP after speaking out !
I saw Bernie on tv saying it was ‘nothing about money’, at least thats what it sounded like – my first thought was who was this imposter and what have they done with Mr Ecclestone?
I hope F1 won’t go to Bahrain for all the obvious reasons, subjecting team personnel to this risk is clearly unacceptable, and none of the sponsors will be keen to be associated with this either so I can imagine cars running unbranded which is ridiculous.
I can only assume everyone involved knows this is a non-starter but there is some financial or political gain from pretending the GP is back on the calendar.
First let me say that I am not a particularly astute political thinker (as will probably become aparent when I ask my question). Secondly I’d like to comment that the account given is this article sounds utterly appalling. It’s a very uncomfortable 30 seconds when you read it. It’s totally impossible to imagine 20 days of utter helplessness. fear and of course physical pain.
My question is this; does not going to Bahrain and Turkey and China not help to shine the spotlight on the prevailing regime and with those eyes watching, does it not prompt a better behaviour?
OK maybe those committing abuses don’t particularly care that F1 brings an elevated world awareness of their nation and that most would view their acts with repugnance, but I assume they have brought F1 to their shores (or desert) with the ulimate aim of making money through increased trade or tourism etc. With it there and more eyes watching wouldn’t that not prompt some small measure of improvement?
Would pulling F1 out of Bahrain not just reduce the scrutiny and make it easier for abuses to occur unchecked?
If it is about image rather than morality, you do risk it becoming (ever more) political and “spun” in the media – not sure Bernie needs any encouragement there.
Personally i do not think sport should be about politics or the froth that is image and perception.
Perhaps i am wrong to think of F1 as a sport rather than a business though
I think the debate is going a bit off-track sometimes. For now everyone is talking about how wrong a decision it was to re-instate Bahrain. I agree. But then the comments start about “well, there is also torture going on in other countries that has a F1 race.”
Probably. I am not doubting this. I think that having a race in China is a joke, as well as one in Bahrain. But we are losing focus here. The question should not be that “if Bahrain shouldn´t be allowed to have a race, then neither should other countries that oppress their people. The debate ongoing is about Bahrain and the fact that the media is toning the conflict down to a minimum. That is the success of the Bahraini government. For the past four months I have sat and watched the news at 19.00 every day here in Denmark. Once the conflict has been mentioned. Once.
So back to issue: Some are saying we should not have a race in the US? Why? I bet you the same people opposed to having a race in the US, are the same ones who didn´t mind it when it was at Indianapolis. I for one can not remember hearing anything about American citizens being tortured or killed, while the Indianapolis GP was on….
There is an enormous difference between how the Australian government treats asylum seekers to how Bahrain kills their own people, simply because they are looking for basic human rights.
@Peter Fox
“Right now I think the calls for the race not to be held smack of double standards.”
More people go missing and are killed and tortured by Brazilian police death squads every year than protesters in Bahrain, and actual armed attacks on F1 staff and drivers happen almost annually, yet where’s the call for the Brazilian GP to be cancelled?
Maybe if there was a facebook page for the trendies to sign it might make the Guardian.
Double standards indeed, especially when 30 Arab spring protesters are killed by the Israeli military in one morning.
But I guess as there’s no facebook page to like, the bandwagon jumpers can ignore it.
I was actually amazed to find myself agreeing with Max Mosley for once.
The Bahrain GP is actually not a matter of whether races should be held in countries with questionable human rights, its a matter of whether the FIA should let F1 be a used as a political tool.
The idea of the race being “A Symbol of Reconciliation” is just going to blow up in the FIA’s face. Especially if teams, drivers, sponsors are going to protest going there.
RuariJM
If yo missed the link posted earlier, here it is again:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/at-around-7pm-he-was-told-to-strip-naked-and-was-again-beaten-severely-2292868.html
And there’s these:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/bahrain/
AlJazeera has this:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/06/20116674812696776.html
GulfNews has this:
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/bahrain/clashes-following-religious-march-in-bahrain-1.818038
However one wonders if Bernie has not lost his marbles when he says it is not about money, as far as he is concerned, it is almost ALL about money. Money is the sport in itself. (eg as per day-trading FX or spread-betting or banking 🙂 )
joe
Yes I am well aware of Pitpass’ lack of access to the paddock. It is quite funny that they advertise this as an advantage as it means that they can say what they want without fear of recourse.
Is it not a little bit unfair to criticize Chris Sylt for not attending races? Surely you can still be well connected and informed, especially considering that he isn’t concerned with the on-track action. Formula Money is a well-respected organ is it not?
are all those calling for the race to be called off going to protest the race in abu dhabi? that nation/state is part of the five way supply of troops and armour to support the government of bahrein i believe.
there needs to be consistency here!!!
kenji,
Well, at least you are consistent.
“I do not think one can compare the abuses of most western countries with Bahrain”
agreed, actual statistics on, I don’t know, deaths caused, would show UK and USA as far, far, far worse in recent times.
Funny Joe, I don’t recall you quoting The Indy’s coverage of the Orissa state sponsored violence against Christians. Why should F1 go to India?
cvrt,
You seem to be the expert. You tell me.
As a loyal F1 fan I will watch the 2011 Bahrain Grand Prix no matter what(a Grand Prix is a Grand Prix) but I consider the actions of the Bahraini government inexcusable and it would be in the best interests of the sport as a whole that the race does not take place.
The problems though are two fold:
1. A large chunk of the Bahraini Sunni and expat population seem to have been brainwashed into thinking that the government can do no wrong. Furthermore the revolutionaries may not be whiter than white themselves.
2. Bernie and others consider F1 to be bigger than all of this.
I do ‘not’ want the sport destroyed over all of this but I’m fully aware that others wish to do so. Bernie is gambling with the future of the sport out of ignorance(possibly deliberate ignorance) of non-sporting issues
The geopolitical and religious issue around this power struggle in Bahrain is almost global in its influence. The Sunni Muslims ( Bahrain Royal family) Saudis, and the Shi’ite Muslims (80% of Bahraini people)- Iran generally hate each other with a passion on religious levels. I met a Sunni , a very well educated man in Tunis who said the Shias were– and i quote “like dogs”. This is very serious hatred for many in these sects. Having travelled in the middle east this religious split is as nasty as the schism, conflict and wars, attacks etc it caused in the christian faiths (Catholic vs Protestant and other cults) 400-500 years ago. Bahrain is on the front line of this which is why the Saudis sent in the tanks against the Shi’tes to defend the royal family power who are Sunni just like the Saudis. It was the Shi’ites who were protesting and the Saudis do not want to have a Shia controlled country, that will be a natural friend of Iran right next to them- neither does the US which is why they fight for freedom for some, but not for the Bahrain protesters human rights. Like Orwell said some people are more equal than others. Iran and the Saudis do not like or trust each other at all. Both regimes are quite extreme religious states. The US lets repression happen because they cannot tell the Saudis what to do– they NEED Saudi oil and they have a vital naval base in Bahrain too.
I would be surprised if the race went ahead this year, most sponsors will not wear the image of bloody repression of freedom that negative image will be put on their brands. The press will talk about unrest as the race goes on. The press will be locked in the track and not be allowed to report in the city–it would be a PR disaster for the sport. I doubt Red Bull, Renault, Mercedes etc will want to be associated with leaders who beat people with cables in police stations without trial and round up nurses for treating injured protesters or talking to the media. This is not a big country, the leaders in Bahrain control the security forces directly. This is a very unstable political situation–not the place for sport, free media etc… I understand the Bahrain Royal Family owns some of McLaren? so McLaren will not vote not to go ? But many teams, sponsors and some media will not want to go.
China is a massive and fast growing market 1.3 bil that multinationals must engage with despite human rights issues, Bahrain is a tiny market, only 1.2 mil people. But China is stable.
It will be interesting to see the method of the backdown. Some excuse will come up.
Fun watching Max argue against himself there all in the space of one article. But I did have respect for him speaking out against the decision…
…until I remembered the nature of his relationship with Ron Dennis, whose company is of course part-owned by Bahrain, and for whom the increasing criticism must be quite awkward.
Suddenly the motives behind Max’s article no longer seem so pure, which is a shame, especially if they actually are pure, and he genuinely feels the way he does.
Mind you, if the conspiracy theory that says that “the race has only been given the go-ahead to avoid paying a large fine, but will then be cancelled anyway by other parties due to public protest” is correct, then it’s in Bernie’s interest to have as much and as loud protesting as possible, isn’t it? And I expect they are still good friends.
So there could be at least three reasons for that article being written…
Fun watching Max argue against himself there all in the space of one article. But I did have respect for him speaking out against the decision…
…until I remembered the nature of his relationship with Ron Dennis, whose company is of course part-owned by Bahrain, and for whom the increasing criticism must be quite awkward.
Suddenly the motives behind Max’s article no longer seem so pure, which is a shame, especially if they actually are pure, and he genuinely feels the way he does.
Mind you, if the conspiracy theory that says that “the race has only been given the go-ahead to avoid paying a large fine, but will then be cancelled anyway by other parties due to public protest” is correct, then it’s in Bernie’s interest to have as much and as loud protesting as possible, isn’t it? And I expect they are still good friends.
So there could be at least three reasons for that article being written…
@joe
My post was not intended to be sarcastic, it was in response to Peter Fox’s post near the top.
Regarding all the false equivalences being drawn:
1) Turkey, Britain and the US have democratically elected governments. Bahrain does not. The US and UK have laws protecting freedom of expression and freedom of assembly, and banning discrimination. Bahrain has laws banning freedom of expression and freedom of assembly, and promoting discrimination. Singapore is not a democracy, but I have never heard reports of brutal oppression or widespread, legislated discrimination.
2) China also has a brutal, oppressive government. However mass shootings and repression of pro-democracy demonstrations are not taking place currently. As has been pointed out, running the Bahrain GP right now would be like racing in Tiananmen Square while the bloodstains were still visible. That being said, I agree on one point – F1 should not be in China.
3) The Bahrain GP is an exclusive project of the same people who are committing the repression; furthermore it is used as propaganda explicitly aimed at sanitizing the very brutality we are condemning. This is not the case elsewhere. The US race has zero government involvement; other races may receive subsidies, but are not wholly owned government projects.
I find the behavior of the US government odious in many ways, as well as Britain’s support of that behavior. But you have to draw the line somewhere. I’d personally like to see that line drawn on the issue of democratic elections (which would rule out China and Singapore). Add government ownership of the race, use of the race for propaganda and current violent repression, and you have Bahrain clearly in a case of its own.
Hi Joe, please keep pursuing this, because I think it’s people like you who can really do something to help at times like this. What do you think the chances are of the teams refusing to go? I noticed that Renault were quick to say they were happy to accept the decision, but a lot of other teams have been saying they don’t want to go. If they did refuse to go where would the balance of power lie do you think? I agree with others on this site who say they won’t be watching the race – Joe how about a GrandPrix + boycott? – it would be great it a few key journalists like yourself and James Allen refused to go – and I say that as a fully subsribed reader, not just as someone trying to cause trouble! 🙂
Rich,
Instead of pointing to what a Mr. Sylt might thing about the issue, here is a piece on Bahrain from that same “great” website, this time it reads like possibly being based on first hand experience:
http://www.pitpass.com/43834-Greetings-from-Bahrain
Thnks, Joe. Duly posted, with acknowledgement to you.
Looks like anytime now, the Shia and Sunni are going to reprise the Catholic and Protestant clashes of the Middle Ages.
Maybe deep down, many humans just want to kill each other and ‘religion’ is sometimes used as the justification.
PS. Appreciate the technology deployed in F1 but I find the actual races incredibly boring. Now, motorcycle racing … that is exciting!
johnrconstable
The Bahrain problem is more to do with neo-colonialism than to do with religion. The Sunnis are hiding behind religion.
Just to throw my 2c worth into the mix.
I am not trying to compare the human rights record in one country to another, nor to say whether or not Bahrain’s record is better or worse than others.
But, unlike all the other countries mentioned, Bahrain has had to cancel/postpone a GP due to the political situation. This puts it in a different category from the others, and in my opinion places a greater responsibility on F1 in making a decision to hold or not hold it. So arguments along the lines of, “If you cancel this you have to cancel country x and y and z,” are in my opinion not comparing like with like.