The New Year marked a significant moment in the history of the McLaren team. Back in February 2000 DaimlerChrysler purchased 40 percent of the TAG McLaren Group, the parent company of the McLaren International Formula 1 team. Ron Dennis retained 30% of the shares and the TAG Group’s Mansour Ojjeh kept its 30 percent shareholding. Dennis and Ojjeh had an arrangement to always vote together and so they retained control, but it looked at the time as though the Germans were lining things up so that they could one day make McLaren a Mercedes brand (this being the primary automobile brand of the DaimlerChrysler empire). That never happened and with the realisation that things were not going to change different strategies were adopted. Dennis and TAG each sold half of their remaining shares to the Bahrain government’s Mumtalakat Holding in 2007, but they retained control with a covenant between them to vote together. Mercedes bought into AMG and then established their own F1 team by buying Brawn GP in 2009, while McLaren began planning its own luxury sports car. The McLaren F1 team continued to use Mercedes engines. In the course of last two years, however, McLaren has been buying back the Mercedes shares, with the final result being that Mumtalakat has increased its shareholding by 20 percent to 50 percent, and Dennis and Ojjeh each adding 10 percent to their holdings. This means that McLaren and Mercedes are now entirely independent of one another, although the F1 engine supply continues. The difference is that in 2013 the team will have to pay for its engines, as Force India does. This explains why there have been rumours in recent months of McLaren scouting around for a new engine supplier for the future. The change of engine regulations, which is now programmed for the start of 2014 when a new formula will begin with the 2.4-litre V8 engines of today being replaced by 1.6 litre V6 turbos, with energy recovery systems and fuel flow restrictions. It is anticipated that a new engine partner will be found for 2014. Logically, the company should perhaps be building its own F1 engines, just as it is now building its own road car engines, but the team says that the investment required to build an F1 engine is too great for a car company with its limited production runs. In all probability there will eventually be McLaren F1 engines, but not in the immediate future.
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joeblogsf1 
hay man, loving the blog.
“The difference is that in 2013 the team will have to pay for its engines, as Force India does. ”
So how much is an engine Joe? Times eight as allowed per season or will that be cut before 2014?
Has anything more been heard from or of PURE? with Merc making press statements about their V4 turbo we should be hearing some counter-hype from others.
V4 turbo? No.
C’mon, you knew what he meant…
That Joe response in full:
V4 turbo? You mean V6 don’t you…
And no, no-one has heard anything of note from PURE recently.
There is no such thing as an F1 V4
Yeah, sorry, I was thinking ahead!
The additional definitions in the tech regs this year often seem clumsily written, in particular the throttle/torque control sections presumably to avoid assisted starts. The exhaust exits are closely defined too but in no way stop them from blowing the rear wing underside or crossbeam.
They include some odd things like, no auto downshifts allowed, which should have been in years ago. (the chance of a missed gear again?)
The teams must be prepared at “any time during the event” to do a complete dump of not only all data, but also all the ECU and EMS programs, scripts etc onto an FIA laptop. cars must have sufficient memory to hold a complete 2 hour history of all events parameters and settings. That’s a lorra lorra memory as Cilla would say. I forsee huge rows over this.
The rule re: overtaking and “one movement only” is actually self defeated within it’s own final paragraph, which clearly says that one CAN move back onto the racing line as long as you leave one car’s width between you and the edge of the track. However earlier on a car is defined as being “on the track” if even on fraction of one tyre is touching the white line, much as in tennis. What then is the width of that car?
So does this mean that from 2013 McLaren will be Renault powered? It seems the logical conclusion, given that Red Bull, as McLaren’s current biggest rival and double world constructor’s champion, are Renault powered, Ferrari most likely wouldn’t give away that much of a possible advantage to a major competitor, and they seem to have engine issues of their own anyway?
It is not logical to change engines for just one year if that can be avoided. It is better to pay for a year for engines and maintain stability and then start a new relationship.
See also McLaren Peugeot. Entertaining blow-ups, though…
Oh dear, you’ve owned a Peugeot?…. š
No, but Martin Brundle has some bits he can sell you…
Happy New Year Joe, good to have you back online.
Looking realistically at McLaren’s options a new supplier is not obvious.
Mercedes – Apart from the cost is there any other reason not to continue?
Ferrari – I would eat my hat if Ferrari supplied an engine to a genuine top-line competitor.
Renault – Proven manufacturer but doesn’t really fit the McLaren prestige image. Does have a good F1 pedigree and should know what hy are doing with a turbo come 2014.
Cosworth – The real risk is that McLaren cold end up with a repeat of the Peugeot years, running an uncompetitive engine.
So should McLaren look elsewhere, who could be suitable?
Honda – A Honda return with a turbo package in 2014 would excite those who remember the McLaren Hondas of the 1980s. If Honda wanted to return as an engine supplier, there isn’t a better team they could return with.
VW Group – Perenially linked with F1, turbo formula in 2014 suits their road car marketing and a choice of brands. I just can’t see past their lack of F1 pedigree, which is where they lose out to Honda.
What if thy want to make their own engine?
In house – McLaren seem to be saying this is too pricey an option due to the investment required. Unless Ron Dennis finds a load of cash down the back of a painfully stylish leather and chrome sofa in Woking, we can probably discount this.
Partnership with PURE? – PURE seem to be pressing on without any apparent customers. They will have made the necessary infrastructure investments and employed the people. Would McLaren do well to buy in and get a McLaren branded engine? This could be funded by selling the McLaren engine along with gearbox/hydraulics package as an entire rear end to customer teams.
It seems strange to be considering engine choices for McLaren as they have become synonymous with Mercedes over a long period. Indeed, they were the de facto Mercedes ‘works’ team until Brawn cashed in. My heart says Honda but my head says they will find a way to continue with Mercedes. I’d love to see them produce their own engine in time though and become a true equal of Ferrari in manufacturing the whole car.
I’d eat my hat too if Ferrari supplied a genuine top-line engine to a genuine top-line competitor.
What is the current state of the Honda 2014 engine plan, Joe? The rumour persists that Honda will supply McLaren, but I find it hard to believe.
Who are the other engine suppliers McLaren could use? Renault, Ferrari and Cosworth all seem unlikely.
If people are going to build engines for 2014 they need to have started already. I think Honda has a secret project of an F1 engine, but needs board approval to go ahead.
Can you share what makes you think that?
I guess if Honda are to return, it will be a stealth startup. If it has legs, it gets the nod, sort of thing. Phillipe and Brian above thoroughly covered what makes me scratch my head. But if Honda can have a little grey-book skunkworks project, why not McLaren? The logic is there to lend any assistance not covered by trade secrets arising from Mercedes. How is PURE making their money? They’re really ambitious, and need an outlet for their talents on a grand scale. Guessing at it, because it’s just three outfits who have to make some smart calls very soon, and all know how to do the deals without getting publicly betrothed. Send in The Mole, Joe!
I understand, but am not enamored with, deals like the Infiniti re-brand. Plain as day, a Honda – McLaren would smooth a few furrowed brows, and quench fan thirst. Must look up the Kieretsu charts. Any name so long as not Yamaha ..
What I can’t put a good handle on, is how badly, if at all, novel components engineering is put out by last year’s disasters. I don’t recall any horror stories as significant as what happened to Nikon and Canon and Sony, all of whom skipped a full year and got double whammied in Thailand, (Sony divesting divisions to Samsung to ease their frustration), but supply chains are so tightly interwoven. (and note also the hardly measurable trickle of computer tech pre holidays) I also keep thinking PURE’s pitch is quite harmonious with Honda. Maybe if you take it as given that economic forces will shake up a lot of company thinking, the new engine formula turns out to be lots more interesting, just by being a ambitious target right in the middle of adversity. I’m merely extrapolating, tenuously at best, but I think it offers big wins and big losses for the teams. Just dreaming of a challenging midfield, of course.
So it looks like the Honda – McLaren deal might become reality, if Honda chooses to return to the sport?
Otherwise I would think that eying PURE, who’s engine will be on the testbed soon would be a logical option, and it could be McLaren branded off course. Did Cosworth ever start developing a 2014 engine in earnest?
Maybe Honda outsourced their program to PURE?
If there is a Honda engine it will be at Honda R&D in Tochigi.
Worth pointing out my mistake above:
Honda do not have any known – formal – Kieretsu. Too Johnny Come Lately. Makes them much more able to trade, and much more real to F1.
Do the old Toyota, BMW and Honda engines have any value to teams? Could they be used in any way as a basis for say a Mclaren or Lotus engine?
it never made sense to me that those investments essentially went to waste when the manufacturers pulled out.
they still wouldnt be financially viable
firstly, the engines wouldnt be sold cheap
and it would cost a lot more to redevelop them into V6
PURE seem an interesting proposition… Surely they must have at least some notes of interest to be pushing on? Mclaren buying into that could be ideal, then selling on their whole rear end to Marussia, who seem like a good bet as Mclarens future ‘junior’ team (FI I think will drift into Merc’s orbit more than Mclaren’s).
What of Cosworth? The way it sounds they won’t have any customers left by 2014…
Joe,
Could some kind of joint partnership with Cosworth/Judd etc work? Cosworth are engine specialist; add McLarens tech know how and investment they could be on to a very good thing. If successful it could be finaially driven by customer sales as this Cosworth engine would appeal much more than the current unit. Unless a ‘manufacturer’ come in I see teaming up with and engine specialist as the only realistic way forword.
Cosworth’s engines at the moment are not much in demand. Sadly, unless the owners invest for the future, it is going to be a company living on an old reputation… which is out of date.
It seems to me like McLaren will end up with a rebadged engine, whoever the actual supplier is.
The prestige car market is pretty brand sensitive, and none of the options except for perhaps Mercedes AMG (that’s their new team name, right?) have the cachet for the buyers McLaren are looking for.
Perhaps a rebadged Mercedes is the best long-term option for both – Mercedes get the money (including a rebadging premium) and people “in the know” will realise that McLaren are still powered by Mercedes, but McLaren get the appearance of standing alone.
Bring back the fantastic days of the McLaren TAG, with a slight re-jig to VAG.
Pretty humorous that so many McLaren fans are opposed to racing in Bahrain but they don’t seem to mind the Bahrain government owning a huge chunk of McLaren.
Doesn’t seem to add up.
Actually, the Bahrainis at Woking have been very reasonable, not causing trouble when the team concluded that it did not want to go to Bahrain.
Engines….good….I get very bored discussing aero š
Is there somewhere I can read more about PURE? If McLaren can badge an engine, gearbox, electronics etc then there may be quite a few of very competitive teams (new and old) with the only difference being the amount of aerodynamacists involved.
In fact McLaren could do TOO well and then give themselves too much competition and the days of the dominance of one team could be over
Brilliant blog as always….keep up the good work.
I’ll put money on Honda for 2014..
Joe – just how ‘specialised’ are the 2014 V6 engines going to be? Is there any chance we might see McLaren doing something similar to their M838T engine?
In other words, buy the rights to a good existing 1.6L V6, partner with Ricardo plc again to modify it appropriately, separately source/design a turbo to bolt onto it, couple in their custom electronics, and again outsource production to Ricardo. The end result would be a custom McLaren branded engine without major expenditure beyond raw design.
If they were being extra clever, they could also use a modified version of the same engine in their supposed “P13” road car – the Porsche 911 competitor that is rumoured for a 2014/15 release date…
Forget PURE… Pollock is a poser. I think there remains a statutory max that can be charged for customer engines so it may be affordable for Mac to do it for two years at which time we will know who has the best engine/recovery package.
I see recovery as the main issue. Braking bias issues will be a key challenge. Right now KERS is only for a very limited amounts per lap so the drivers can charge their KERS systems mostly on straight line braking areas. That will be no more as the 2014 regs allow for 4000KJ per lap which is ten times the 2010 amount. http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/story/52293.html
We may possibly see a mechanical system as I suspect electrical technology hasn’t caught up just yet. Supposedly EMT workers can get fatally shocked if they use the “jaws of life” in the wrong spot during an extraction. Even the occupants risk deadly shocks as well during accidents though that hasn’t happened yet.
Battery technology and toxic waste are yet to catch up to the needs. They may well do so one day but they aren’t even close at present. But maybe that it what is needed from F1… a place to push the envelope and develop new techniques and materials.
I also think that the FIA may have stopped forbidding ultra high-pressure fuel injection systems which holds great promise for advances in combustion technology. Look at pg. 16 here http://f1tcdn.net/files/2011/bmw-f1-engines-200x.pdf
Methinks the Honda project sounds like a winner for all parties but they would almost have to be bench testing by now and if that were the case there would be much more from the rumor mill so I sadly conclude that it is unlikely. Thus Merc customer engines for two years, see where recovery technology leads and then regroup.
He is a very successful poser, if your views are to be taken seriously. He also has a great deal of money behind him and some serious technology companies.
If I recall right, Honda, prior to leaving F1 in before the 2009 season, had a very advanced, lightweight flywheel based KERS system that was tested pretty hard in-house back at Japan…it just never made it into a live Honda (BGP001) chassis.
Something tells me Honda is ready to go for 2014 in its natural role as an Engine supplier. If you look at the near future products that Honda is going to be rolling out with the new NSX and some other Honda cars with advanced Hybrid and KERS technology in them, it’s an absolute no-brainer that Honda return to F1 to showcase and do marketing tie-ups with the pinnacle of motorsport.
I think this is just posturing by McLaren as part of the negotiating process. The economics don’t stack up for them to start their own engine works. People seem to forget that the “hero” McLaren F1 road car had a BMW engine yet no one claims the car is worse off for that. Hence the new road cars shouldn’t have an issue either. Their slow-ish sales has more to do with the lacklustre design compared to their more pants stirring rivals.
A company like McLaren have too much to lose by picking a new engine supplier like PURE or Honda. Cosworth have underperformed (but probaby met their design brief – ie cheap engines for the lower teams), so are out. Ferrari wouldn’t supply an engine either. That leaves Mercedes or Renault. Its hard to imagine (but not impossible) that they would run a Renault when RB are their key rivals and Renault’s engines pre-fixes have arguably been inferior to the Mercedes performance. Now that doesn’t mean it will be like that for the new design, but you would have to look at recent history for the consistency delivered by Mercedes who are a lot more committed to the sport than Renault. That could have an impact if you are wanting a long term relationship with a supplier. Yes Renault are now saying they will supply engines for a while, but who would you put money on? Renault or Mercedes to stick around?
The relationship with the engineers they have now will surely also be an important issue regardless of any incremental performance differences between suppliers product. They will likely have confidence in those engineers to design something good out of the box or to fix any issues that arise subsequently.
All this leads me to believe that they will stick with the current Mercedes package.
I thought Ricardo designed and built the engine for the McLaren road car?
It is more complicated than that. I believe it started out as a Menard design. It was reworked by Mahle and then substantially reworked by McLaren with input from Ricardo, which now manufactures the unit
Thanks Joe,at least we know more,McLaren have always appeared to be very secretive about the engine.
Hello
I’m new to this blog but have been reading it for awhile. I couldn’t help but notice the buzz about Honda in your comments. Just like to say that their commitment would have to be somewhat shallow or they need very deep pockets. A lawsuit brought on in USA concerning their hybrid 2006 Honda is working it’s way through small claims court; could cost them massive cash if more consumers’ decide to follow that path instead of class action.
well mclaren doesn’t build its road car engines either
Yes, officiallt it does. Lot os car companies subcontract things.