Eighteen cars in Austin?

The word from Bernie Ecclestone (by way of Reuters) is that neither Caterham nor Marussia will be in Austin next weekend, which means that the field will be reduced to just 18 cars. There is no time to cobble together any third car options, as it is believed that these require a minimum of 60 days to be actioned. That being the case, this season will be over before third cars are required to appear.

The crazy thing about the current situation is that the rules regarding third cars are not public and the people who know the answers are bound not to reveal the details by strict confidentiality agreements, so no-one outside the signatories know how they work and anyone revealing the details (including Ecclestone and the FIA) can get into trouble by doing so. In the modern day and age it is astonishing that a sport can have secret rules and one wonders how the International Olympic Committee and other international bodies that recognise the FIA agreed to allow the federation to be a member  of their organisations when such things are still the case. One can understand the desire of some to keep the money out of the public domain, although if everyone is paying their taxes there really is no reason to hide this stuff and indeed prize money can be used as a promotional tool, as often happens in US racing.

In the meantime, the best that we can do is to guess the method by which the teams are chosen (with a little guidance perhaps) but without being able to read the full texts of the most recent agreements. It is believed that there is some kind of a ballot included in the rules, but there are no details of how this can and would be done. It is entirely possible that there are actually no rules regarding that. Whatever the case, these things cannot be changed without unanimous agreement. As I understand it, the third car rule is far less simple than some imagine. Teams cannot just turn up and run extra cars at all the races. In order to be fair (in a fashion) the teams should be given the same opportunities to run third cars because there will always be a strategic element in any additional car running. This means that the choice of these third cars has to be random. As we understand it, each ballot will exclude the team that ran a third car in the last race.

We do not know whether or not the third cars have to be run in the same livery as the two normal entries, or whether the space can be sold to different sponsors. That might help teams pay for these otherwise useless cars, but there may be rules that stop this happening, although there is nothing in the public domain that suggests that this is the case.  The Sporting Regulations state that “both cars entered by a competitor must be presented in substantially the same livery at each event”, which does not really help as “both” does not take into account a third car.

The real question is not who turns up in Austin but rather whether there are sufficient cars for next season, or whether teams will be required to run third cars to make up the numbers. This is a disastrous situation for all concerned because it is clear that third cars do not score points (and therefore  do not create prize money) but they do deprive others of income because their results are declared void and the others who finish behind them in a race do not move up the order. If, for example, a dominant team is running a third car, the team can score 43 points (for first and second) but the best a rival team can hope for is 22 points because third place will also likely go to the third car of the fastest team, leaving only fourth and fifth places (12 and 10 points) available. If the third car was not there, the second best team can score 27 points. Thus the midfield teams will be forced back in the F1 pecking order and will become less able to make money.

The FIA should get a good idea within a few days as to whether there will be 18 cars or 22 in 2015, as teams entering the World Championship have to lodge an entry by November 1. An entry fee is required. This is $516,128, plus $5,161 per point for the 2015 season.

The other key question that we do not know the answer to is what is in the 100-year agreement between the FIA and FOM regarding the number of entries that must appear at each race, and what allowances (if any) are made for breaches. If there are 18 cars only in Austin this could in theory be a breach of the 100-year deal, but we do not know. If it is a breach the FIA could cancel the agreement and claim the commercial rights as its own once again. That is probably not the the case, but as all of this is secret we can only guess.

One can hope that one or both of the teams will be able to revive in the weeks ahead but in both cases the problems lie with the owners. Caterham is a mess and is being led by an Administrator who knows next to nothing about the sport. His actions will largely depend on who gives him advice and he is barely qualified to choose who is the best consultant. It is going to be very much a question of luck. His efforts thus far have been described to me as “blundering”.

Marussia has a buyer waiting in the wings but the Russian owner, who cannot afford to pay for the team, appears to be asking for way too much money for the team to be taken seriously. Missing Austin may drive this point home to him: his team is worth nothing as long as there are 11 teams. If there are 10 it has a little more value, depending on the debts.

There is no official confirmation from Marussia that the team will not be in Austin and, to be honest, it is strange for the Commercial Rights Holder to have announced such a thing before the team has made any statement to that effect. It is dreadful publicity for Formula 1 and thus one must assume that either Ecclestone has done this deliberately, or he does not realise the impact that such a remark. Whatever the case, this brings down the sale value of the Formula One group. The current agreements that bind the FIA and FOM cover the period from 2013 to 2020 and an agreement to renew until 2030 on substantially the same terms, so it is a long-term problem.

No doubt, we will find answers to these questions in the weeks ahead.

220 thoughts on “Eighteen cars in Austin?

  1. Sadly not a great time for F1 in some respects. Some teams struggling financially and one very dominant team and engine supplier spoiling the “show” for the average follower of the sport, even though it is fortunately allowing its two drivers to race each other.

    1. I don’t agree. Excellence should always be rewarded. Mercedes did a better job. It is up to the others to fix that.

      1. I agree that excellence should be rewarded, but it shouldn’t have to prevent other teams from being able to improve throughout the season. Current engine rules lock teams into handicaps for entire seasons. Why is it engines that are frozen, and not aero? Will aero be next? If a team has a development budget of x dollars per year, who cares how it is spent?

        As much as I love Formula 1, the rulemakers are doing a great job of driving away fans and viewers. The races in the midfield can be as spectacular as anything, but unless that same quality of racing is happening at the very front of the races, for the lead, F1 is missing huge, huge opportunities in this era. Yes, the intra-team battle of Mercedes is interesting, but how great would it be if there were drivers of other teams with a *realistic* chance of contending in the title race?

        1. @across32…
          I agree entirely, I would not want to be spending many millions of $ per year just to make up the numbers…

      2. I fully agree about rewarding excellence, Joe, and that it is up to the others to improve, but the extent of Mercedes’ current domination is not good for the sport, turning away non-hardcore fans like most folks reading your blog. Barring technical issues or contact fans know a Mercedes 1-2 is very likely and that makes viewers switch channels or not tune in to start with.

        We’ve seen periods of dominance before of course from the likes of McLaren, Williams, Ferrari and Red Bull and the sport has survived, so the current problem is nothing new.

        A recipe for a better F1 future must for sure include real cost capping, reduced ticket prices and more affordable full TV coverage plus the non-domination of the sport by any single team whilst still rewarding innovation. Not easy, but hardly impossible.

        1. This is crazy. How can Mercedes dominance be bad for the sport? They have to drivers racing hard for the championship. Did Ferrari offer this between 2000 and 2004? Have you forgotten 2002 and 2004? Where was the racing between Schumacher and Driver Number 2?

          1. How can it be good for F1 that the winning team in every race at the moment is, with the odd exception, very predictable. The Nico/Lewis battles are entertaining, but it would be far better to have other teams and drivers with a greater chance of victory. This applies to all sports and impacts directly on viewing figures.

            1. Because that is the nature of Formula 1. if you change that you destroy what it is all about and you go down to the road to NASCAR bumper cars.
              F1 is all about excellence and one must never penalise that. All the problems of F1 would be solved very quickly with a cost cap and the departure of CVC Capital Partner. They are vampires, drinking the blood of the sport. Bernie Ecclestone invited them in and he’ll be lucky to get out with his neck intact.

              1. Fully agree with your points about NASCAR, rewarding excellence, cost caps and CVC. The magnitude though of Mercedes’ current performance advantage, however admirable from a technical point of view, causes its own problems in terms of making races too predictable. Accepted that this has sadly often been the nature of F1 in the past with other teams. The team which does the best job should be rewarded with an advantage, but preferably not one which detracts from the overall spectacle and turns away uncommitted viewers. I’m sure sponsors want the racing to be as exciting and unpredictable as possible to attract increased audiences.

        2. I see your points, but I do disagree. The Mercedes drivers are allowed to race each other, and they do have reliability problems – two things that was not the case for example when Ferrari were dominating, or indeed arguably Red Bull. I’m not saying for a second that there aren’t things that could do with some drastic improvement in F1 (as a purist, I detest DRS for example, and I hate the sanitising of tracks), but as F1 season go I think this a pretty good one.

          Barring the loss of two teams of course

          1. In regard to the current lack of concern by Bernie, on losing 2 teams and being in 18 car grids now, might it be the case that the FIA could claim back the series for breach of contract, CVC would be scuppered and Bernie could ride to the rescue and run it without interference again? just a thought.

            Another thought is that this scenario has been building for several years. Bernie talks up more races, yet now Joe says CoTA is a possible drop race, after hardly any events. Sponsors are leaving or scaling back involvement. Grandstands are not filled, teams are going bust and costs keep rising. I see today that Vettel may not run all this weekend except in the race itself, because of some stupid rule that his team has broken in using too many engine related bits….it’s pathetic beyond all words.

            It is not sustainable financially as it stands, and although Joe sees this, I don’t understand why he doesn’t see that the costs in general make F1 a sport in decline, even if one knocked £100m a year off the budgets, it still would not be sustainable. A radical shift is needed and a renewed, reconfigured F1 with new and fewer rules, transparent finance structures, clear prize funds and fewer races but at places where motorsport has a backstory and at prices the circuits and fans can afford.

            I’ve just had 5 days in Spain, with my son, watching the WRC round. VW, Citroen, and Hyundai were there in strength, Ford was there as a semi works team, and there were other Privateer teams using Citroen & Ford machinery in the top category alongside the Works Teams.

            The spectacle was great, with the ability of fans to be right next to the action. Unless you wanted to be in certain areas, there was no cost to the fan. We saw more than enough in public zones and in our own routes to places. The cost to us of hotel room, flights and hire car for 5 days was £600 in total for the two of us.

            The Works teams spend huge sums on building and running sophisticated machines, and paying for top drivers on multi million £ contracts, on the stages tens of thousands of spectators turn out. In fact they turn out and camp out on some of the stages, and get to see the field run twice during the day without having to move from their bbq’s.

            Just asking fans over the weekend, I found that almost all had been or still were F1 fans too, but that most liked WRC and MotoGP the best. The most common comments on F1 was that it was not as spectacular now, that the rules are stupid and too complex, and that F1 does nothing to attract the ordinary working person, it is only interested in people rich enough to be at F1 races, whereas MotoGp and WRC are cheaper and more entertaining.

            Now I just did my personal survey of talking to fans, and I met people from Norway,Sweden, Finalnd, Germany, Belgium, France, Holland, UK, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Spain Portugal and other countries. Real fans are easy to chat to, and if F1 wants to survive, then this is what F1 people should do, talk to the fans, it’s simple really. The FIA, the Circuit Owners, Promotors, Teams Drivers, Journalists and other Media, should talk to the fans, and recreate the series how they want it, because at the moment it is declining, and the problem is that it is a series that doesn’t know what it wants to be or who it’s audience is. With Bernie in charge, it really doesn’t care either, but it cannot continue to be like this or it will end up going the same way as Caterham and Marussia, but on a grander scale.

            Going back to Vettel and the possibility that he won’t run in Practice or Quali and only in the actual Race….what sporting event in the World would stop a 4 x World Champion from appearing in front of 60,000 or more PAYING SPECTATORS???? This alone should show anyone with a modicum of commonsense, that F1 has well and truly given up all regard for the fan base and spectators….surely the Teams can see this, and the Media too? If not then all may well be lost already…….

            1. Well, the Vettel situation is just downright stupid.

              Rule-makers are supposed to think things through before they implement rules. I didn’t see this coming, but then again it’s not my friggin’ job either…

    2. I think you mean two engine manufacturers spoiling the show for the average follower.
      Renault and Ferrari engines cost their customers more than the Mercedes engines and look at what they are doing for their customer teams.

      1. I am an advocate of the customer engine prices being set at a sustainable level. The manufacturers will invest whatever they want to invest. The teams cannot go on paying these vast figures.

        1. I wonder why this was not instigated by the FIA… keeping the costs as they were, in check, while moving towards hybridisation.. win-win.. and then you can allow the manufacturers to invest as much as they like, as it is all R&D for them.. plus, no complicated token system to manage!

  2. I know this is a bit far fetched and us not knowing the rules, but with Rubens parting ways with the tv company and him poking around for a drive when he should of been doing tv work, it does leave me to wonder if Rubens will be there asking Mercedes to build a spare car for him.

      1. I’d think Rubens is gone, he’s too long out of the game.

        Before ALO’s departure and Seb’s non-announcement, I would have liked to see Webber pop back in at Ferrari for a swan-song drive! They showed interest in him in the past… But I’d bet Porsche wouldn’t like that one bit!

        A bit of armchair opinion.. 3 cars seems a bit of a joke, especially with them being non-point scoring entries + not all teams running them every week. 3 cars for all teams would be better accepted by the fans if they were fully-fledged competitors in the race.

        It would also be fantastic if teams were forced to run young drivers in the 3rd cars.

        1. I really don’t understand the non points scoring third cars – it’s just pushing the big teams to utilize a driver as a strategic cheating tool – crashing or pushing competitors out of action. Now if they were points scoring entries we’d add elements of both strategy and personal rivalry between teammates and also the possibility of upsets and young driver seats. Less arguments between kicking out experienced and media interest drivers once they pass 32 – and still room to bring in the young teens/20-somethings – and all with more of a chance of being in a position to score.

          And since the whole double points nonsense was about making seasons competition last longer – 3rd drivers scoring points opens up the better chance of season long battles.

          What am I missing here? I’m genuinely interested to hear what it is. It seems like a win/win/win to me. Non scoring entries sounds like a recipe for more Briatore inspired shenanigans and disgruntled fans – but I’m clearly missing something important?

  3. once again Bernie drives down the cost of buying F1 – at this rate CVC will just give to him for £1 to get rid of it……

  4. Surely the collapse of Caterham must also have had a disastrous affect on Marussia’s value – a buyer could potentially pick up the pieces from Caterham’s administrator for a lot less money it would cost to buy Marussia. Of course it depends on how much prize money is due to Marussia as a result of Bianchi’s 9th place in Monaco.

  5. In addition to all the sporting issues around running third cars, and the likely detrimental commercial impact on the smaller teams, it also seems to me to be a huge billboard saying “business broken!”. For a sport/business that generates such monumental revenue and profits, to advertise that it can’t manage to have ten whole teams compete (TEN!) – with all the oligarchs and plutocrats in the world, not to mention auto manufacturers and other huge hi-tech companies – is a massive indictment of the business model.

    This isn’t news to you or your readers, Joe, but it’s been making me shake my head in wonder all morning (not for the first time).

  6. Interesting the Bernie made the announcement & the Marussia F1 Team hasn’t …. Who made the choice that they won’t be in Austin … Marussia or Bernie?

    1. As Bernie provides the air transport (for all the teams) perhaps Marussia hadn’t paid their fee by the required date and thus couldn’t go. Not really viable to use hand luggage allowance to freight the cars!

  7. The mention of a third car and Bernie Ecclestone reminded me of the last time a 3rd car scored world championship points.

    Rolf Stommelen was entered in a year old Brabham run by the RAM team for the 1976 German Grand Prix, only if I remember correctly, for the team to withdraw due to a contractual dispute during practice, where upon Bernie offered Rolf the use of the works Brabham teams spare car for the weekend and Rolf qualified 15th and duly finished 6th in the race.

    In the same year the works March team was effectively a four car operation with two teams or two cars and in 1978 McLaren ran Bruno Giacomelli in a third car for four races, not forgetting Gilles Villeneuve debut in a third McLaren in 1977.

        1. Agreed – state of F1 has changed for the worse (as a spectacle). I’ve switched over to MotoGP and haven’t looked back.

          1. I’m surprised you say that. BT have effectively annexed the coverage (BBC did a better job by far), having such a tiny audience, with ITV4 saving the day a tiny bit – although it’s all done and dusted by Monday night isn’t it? Marquez/Honda has dominated until recently – not so different to Merc in F1 I would have thought.

            1. I was referring to the spectacle of the actual racing as opposed to broadcasting situation (which is a shambles as you suggest). Marquez may have the upper hand this season however the result is not a foregone conclusion and his margin of victory (when he has won) has been under 2 seconds in all but two occasions (and generally under a second) . I would also humbly disagree with the situation being not very different to Mercedes in F1. In MotoGP, the domination is predominantly down to the rider’s skill as opposed to the vehicle – just look at who is 2nd and 3rd in the championship…its not the other Honda rider.

              1. But F1 has also always been about the best combination of car and driver Bob, at least the championship-winning ones. The best drivers, often having shone in average cars, are nabbed for the top seats. I’d say it’s about the same for MotoGP in the end, hence Marquez’s form in the Honda (yet another win this weekend). In terms of spectacle I like both and I’m sorry that you’ve become disillusioned with F1 – I’ve learned to take the rough with the smooth over the years. I must say though, with no disrespect to Nico, I’d love to see Lewis and Alonso fighting it out in Mercs – best drivers in best cars?

                1. While I agree that the best combination of car and driver WAS the ethos of F1 in previous eras. The onus of that combination has shifted immeasurably towards the car than the driver. There is also the added factor of ‘the team’ in modern F1 who now have a far greater influence during a race than in previous eras. In the 80s and 90s, the possibility of a driver to outperform his machinery was a more common sight. Who can forget Pierluigi Martini qualifying his Minardi in 8th place at the 1990 Monaco GP, Capelli almost winning at Paul Ricard…or indeed, THAT first lap by Senna at Donnington? I would compare that ability to transcend the machinery akin to what Marquez does using his elbows to hang off the bike like no other driver. Indeed, if you go back a couple of seasons you’ll also see Casey Stoner ‘tame the Ducati’ in a manner no one has ever come close since. The MotoGP teams also have no pit-to-vehicle communication so the onus is very much on the rider to get a feel for the machinery and the track on their own (very much like F1 drivers in previous eras). I have followed F1 since the mid 80s however it feels too engineered in recent times (DRS zones, non-optimum tyre compounds and the mandate to use both compounds in a race are a few examples to artificially ‘spice up the show’). These make the event feel more like a commercial exercise than a true sport and if not careful, will gravitate the audience to feeling they are viewing something closer to WWE Wrestling than a fair sporting contest (the lack of transparency of all the rules and contractual agreements, as Joe has mentioned earlier, is the first step towards this unfortunate path).

                  1. I started watching F1 some years before you did but I don’t feel the same way. Not at all. I think it is just as interesting as it always has been. I don’t think it has changed for the worse at all.

                    1. I somewhat agree and somewhat don’t… there was a romance then that’s missing now… 8 guys bolting a DFV to the rear of something they’d made in the proverbial woodshed… their stalwart driver giving the famous (red) cars a run for the money… the underdog heroics of the Battle of Britain without all the civilian casualties and bombed out houses… (not sure about the pilot survival rate though…)

                      You didn’t need to be a megabucks corporation to win a race… one of the main problems now is that the also rans are destined to remain also rans until they go broke and fold… no path for non-corporate ingenuity to go to the top… much more of a static, even petrified, caste system… billions doesn’t promise victory (Toyota), but it is a required precondition… hard for the romance to survive that… (modern times, etc…)

                    2. Perception and feelings are a subjective topic. I’m glad you feel rather positive towards F1 Joe – journalists with such a passion is what the sport needs. I sadly no longer feel the same level of excitement or anticipation as I once did before a race. Based on the declining global tv audiences and the general disenfranchisement one can read on dedicated forums and message boards, it appears my sentiment is shared by millions of others – I think that’s more important than what a single journalist or I believe.

                    3. Interesting comments from Humpy Wheeler… talking about the current state of NASCAR, but perhaps relevant to F1 too:

                      “…you need a superhero like Tiger Woods or Joe Namath, somebody like that. Walt Disney told his people to draw in a villain within the first 90 seconds. We need something like that. We need villains, but, instead, we have too many pretty boys.There just aren’t any personalities.”

                      and

                      “… they almost let this thing go too damned far. They came very close to losing the common person, the people they need the most…The new Chase format gets rid of points days, and nobody’s ever bought a ticket to see a points race. No more [bleeping] around and talking about how finishing sixth was a great points day.”

                      ref: http://autoweek.com/article/nascar/humpy-wheeler-says-nascar-has-too-many-pretty-boys

                    4. I agree with you Joe. I’ve been hooked since I was 10 yrs old (I’m 60 now) watching the likes of Jim Clark live and on TV (such as it was then!) and it’s just different now, not necessarily worse. Apart from CVC of course……

                    5. Stephen Deakin: Yes, but we semi-old farts got hooked back before F1 success was about designing upside-down airplanes… and before the rules strangled anything that might be called innovation… and before you needed a degree in physics to understand what makes one car go faster than the other… I’m guessing it’s much harder to get the uninitiated regular person hooked today…

    1. Frank Williams also scored his first podiums with Piers Courage in a customer Brabham. How will the new Frank Williams’ enter the arena now?

        1. The future should have been stand outs like Vasser, de Orleans and Rossin to name a few. If Kolles is the future then I am really worried.

  8. Would RBR be better off running three cars and closing STR? Surely economies of scale on chassis design and engines outweigh the prize money that STR would receive.

    I also wonder where this will leave Alonso – could he yet get a prime seat at RBR or Mercedes?

    1. Alonso is angling for a Mercedes seat. If not for 2015 then for 2016. If this doesn’t work, he will sign with Honda a two year contract plus option. He is certainly out at Ferrari.

  9. I think 3 car teams are a bad idea for F1 for a few reasons.

    * If you have a season like this with a dominant car we could see 1 team lock out the podium & the constructors championship be locked up earlier (Would Ricciardo have been able to win those 3 races this year if there were 3 Mercedes?).
    * It pushes the mid-field teams further back, Reduces the chance of them scoring points & puts them in further financial difficulties.
    * You will have the 3rd cars used for strategic reasons to block rival teams (Especially if you say the 3rd car can’t score).
    * If you say the 3rd car doesn’t score, Then whats the 3rd driver racing/risking his life for?
    * Could also cause problems in the pits as 3 cars for 1 pit box is going to be a real traffic jam during safety car periods where everyone pits.
    * It puts a bigger financial strain on the teams as they would need to bring more equipment to races, More staff, buy/use more components/tyres through a season & remember that its not just the bottom 3-4 teams who are marginal on finances as it is.
    * It also puts off new teams joining, We have Haas F1 coming for 2016. With 3 car teams where would they fit in?

    Like many other things the past few years, There just trying to stick a plaster over something without doing anything about the actual underlying problem.

    If Caterham/Marussia don’t make the 2015 grid, I’d much rather 2 car teams fielding 18 cars than some or all teams running 3 cars because I just don’t see 3 car teams as a positive thing for the reasons I list above & probably a few more I didn’t think of.

    1. I’d have to agree on all those, it just seems madness with so much money going to Ferrari for no real reason. The new teams turned up in 2010 because of budget caps to make it possible for them to compete, this just hasn’t happened so the best they can do is simply survive. This isn’t good for the sport having teams with no hope but it is better than a hugely confusing third car racing round for no points.

      I suspect when there are only 18 (or less – Force India? Sauber? Lotus?) cars next year they will look at customer card again to make it easier for new teams to enter which will just push the sport further down the drain.

      The big teams need to think of the sport not just themsleves. If Ferrari threaten to pull out if there are big changes then left them go, they need F1 more than it needs them.

    2. Hmm. This got me thinking – don’t these arguments hold when going from one to two cars too? i.e.

      ” * If you have a season like this with a dominant car we could see 1 team lock out the podium & the constructors championship be locked up earlier (Would Ricciardo have been able to win those 3 races this year if there were 2 Mercedes?).
      * It pushes the mid-field teams further back, Reduces the chance of them scoring points & puts them in further financial difficulties.
      * You will have the 2nd cars used for strategic reasons to block rival teams (Especially if you say the 2nd car can’t score).
      * If you say the 2nd car doesn’t score, then what’s the 2nd driver racing / risking his life for?
      * Could also cause problems in the pits as 2 cars for 1 pit box is going to be a real traffic jam during safety car periods where everyone pits.
      * It puts a bigger financial strain on the teams as they would need to bring more equipment to races, More staff, buy/use more components/tyres through a season & remember that its not just the bottom 3-4 teams who are marginal on finances as it is.
      * It also puts off new teams joining, We have Haas F1 coming for 2016. With 2 car teams where would they fit in? ”

      I am not saying that this refutes any of your points, but it is interesting to note.

  10. I certainly agree that it would be good for the people who work for the teams if they can revive.

    However, it we look at the situation from 10,000 feet I’m not so sure it’s best for the sport. Those teams contribute nothing of real racing interest or value and, more importantly, their absence might contribute to a change at the top. The current so-called leadership has proven time and again that their overriding goal is extracting wealth from the sport while ignoring, if not outright damaging, its long term health.

    While I hate to root against the jobs of those who work at the two teams, I’m very much hoping for whatever passing calamity might be instrumental in getting rid of Bernie and his partners at CVC. They’ve chosen to be parasites, and the sooner they’re gone the better it will be for everybody else.

    What I don’t want to see is yet another needless F1 drama that provides an interval of newsy intrigue without any constructive change. I’m hoping that Bernie’s purchased escape in Munich was the last of his 9 supremo-lives.

    1. Don’t think this is just newsy intrigue. I think this is the start of the change.

      For too long f1 has been about more and more money. Bernie drove it and many old gargistes got rich on his coat tails. CVC came in and have done what their customers paid them to, make money for them. In many ways fair play to them.

      But the cost to partake, let alone compete, is ridiculous. I seem to remember when Caterham’s troubles were first talked about that a poster on here said they employed 350 people. Then someone else said Force India do it with only 250. Hundreds of people employed to achieve mediocrity at best. This is in no way criticising the employees of those companies, but reflects the absurd levels of money it takes to be part of the F1 show.

      The same applies to those who want to stage a Grand Prix. No income, other than ticket sales, but a fortune to be paid. New York/Jersey has gone before it started, not financially feasible. That could have challenged Singapore if not Monaco as a classic F1 street race and a place to do deals. Austin is going, by all accounts and Silverstone, Spa and Monza struggle to survive.

      If Bernie does not see the demise of Caterham, as I believe it is, and the likely demise of Marrussia as a wake up call then nothing will. But perversely this is probably a good thing. Todt appears to be waiting for the pack of cards to fall down. In the recent Motorsport interview all he seemed to say was ‘Thats not for the FIA, it’s for the commercial rights holders.’

      The current business model of F1 is completely unsustainable. The missing cars on the grid may mean the commercial rights holders are in breach of their contract with the FIA. It is also reducing the value of their business. Hopefully one or both of these means it will soon be the end of Bernie and CVC. The risk is that another bunch of profiteers take over. But hopefully the commercial rights revert to the FIA, who lease it out on better terms.

      For what its worth my suggestion would be ;

      TV and circuit fees 20% commercial rights holder, 50% of the rest split equally amongst the teams, the other 50% split on performance. A maximum of 50% more can be earned by the teams through sponsorship. No special deals. If you don’t like what’s offered don’t join in.

      Circuit advertising and F1 activites, Paddock Club etc, 50-50 split between the circuit and commercial rights holder. Title sponsorship of the GP 100% to the circuit.

  11. I wonder if the decision by Marussia not to attend Austin, and maybe all three of this seasons final races, is because without Caterham, Marussia are guaranteed at least 10th place in the WC and likely maintain 9th where they are now. They won’t catch Lotus who are 8th so they might as well stay home and save their money for next year.

    1. I think IanC’s comment may be one of the most perceptive on Marussia’s potential no-show. It’s a bit of a gamble on Caterham not showing up, but probably an 80/20 gamble rather than a 50/50.
      His analogy is just like Vettel planning to start from the pit-lane because it gives him more flexibility, and doesn’t waste mileage on his new Renault power plant.

      1. Agreed. I wouldn’t be surprised if its spot on. Akin to those midfield teams who make it into Q3 but don’t bother doing a run to save their tyres for the race.

        1. This is all very well, but what about Sauber, who Marussia are also beating? If they pull out and Sauber get two points they could have had it would look very silly if they were really doing this.

          No, the original article which released this info said they were struggling to pay their creditors and were doing so on a week to week basis. They mentioned engines in the article, but I’m guessing freight was also in there as well.

          1. Freight is part of the deal for most of the teams. However, as Marussia is currently still ranked as 11th they probably have to pay

          2. Kimberely – if Sauber do score a 9th place finish then Marussia will only drop one place but most importantly remain in the top 10 which is the critical target. One also has to consider whether Marussia is likely to beat the Saubers if they did elect to compete – chances are Sauber would score those points irrespective of whether Marussia were participating in the Grand Prix or not (unless you’re suggesting that Marussia is capable of finishing in the points yet again too?). This is a calculation against risk – yes, there’s a slim chance that Sauber could move ahead of them. There’s an even more remote chance that Marussia could defend that place by competing. However the cost involved against such marginal possibilities is offset by their current financial predicament which is the more pressing matter at hand…so staying at home is the best balance against all the likely probabilities.

    2. There are consequences for not showing up. Otherwise we would have teams skipping some races every year.

      I guess the powers that be might be merciful and not fine them, if that helps getting the grid up to 20 for next year. Minardi stuck around way past it’s due date thanks to handouts just to keep up numbers.

  12. The point scoring system under 3 car races is stupid but surly that could be changed easily enough if third cars race. Why Bernie would allow this to happen over dipping into his own pocket to keep a start and park 10th team alive is beyond me, can’t see it.

    More interestingly, what’s or who is funding Sauber, Lotus and Force India. Their prize money is bigger sure, but so must be their costs. Are they on the brink too? Sauber must be in real trouble after this season.

    1. It cannot be changed. It is written into commercial contracts and for them all to be changed would require agreement from everyone.

      1. I thought 20 car grids were written into the commercial contracts too.. (although I’ve noted that you’ve been suggesting this is 14 cars now Joe – some clarification on this would be helpful).

      2. ….and as Joe has demonstrated so clearly and so often, the top teams are not remotely interested in the sustenance of the the minor teams that make
        up the grid. For these rich and successful outfits the also-rans are just back
        markers to be disposed of as track debris. But if history teaches us anything it is the certainty that if huge financial set-ups like F1 continue with
        grossly imbalanced rewards for it’s participants, the day will come when F1
        consumes itself. When it’s staggering scales of self-interest will destroy
        the whole shebang. It may start with the demise of BCE and CVC.

        And given the sadness I feel for the plight of Caterham and Marussia
        and other teams on the edge of the abyss, I have to admit to some very
        strong misgivings about what is being done to our fabulous sport by
        sheer bloody greed.

  13. Marussia not participating in Austin is a missed opportunity to run Rossi.
    A US driver in a US race would have been great PR for F1 generally.
    This is a real mess for the sport and one wonders what BE is thinking of…

    1. Yes but the real pity is Simona de Silvestro has lost her position at Sauber, which is a great shame, and a complete cock up marketing wise…

  14. I wonder about this 100-year commercial rights deal; I suspect there’s an amazingly large amount of what we don’t know about that deal other than Bernie is a slippery character and the likelihood of land mines and poison pills scattered throughout the paragraphs and various clauses should be expected to be high. Very high.

    And the teams: Are they a pack of wolves, with a leader of some sort, or a group of wolves, each out for himself and devil take the hindmost?

    1. Don’t forget that the deal was negotiated between Ecclestone and Mosley. It was not a co-production. They were negotiating against one another.

      1. Against each other ? With the FIA so weak it gave away the rights for $1m a year – 100 years for $100m ? It beggars my belief, kn owing their history…

      2. Not trying to raise your hackles Joe, there are many who consider that “negotiation” a give away. Hindsight of the 20-20 variety? Maybe but I have to believe Max didn’t so much as give it away but rather feathered his own nest.

        1. I have always felt it was unwise but it was not just Max who made the decision. The FIA Senate was involved as well.

  15. Back to the future? I was at the United States Grand Prix in 2005. I remember vividly how the crowd reacted to that farce of a race with the police tasked to control the crowd and the press that followed. Here we are again back to having the worst situation of the season during the year falling on the United States Grand Prix. How serious is F1 about truly making the sport successful in the states? If Bernie really gave them both of those teams a free pass to miss this race then then he is somewhat responsible for this situation. The press will grab a hold of this for sure and pile more bad publicity on the sport. Vegas, Long Beach, New York? Forget those plans or stories for now.

    1. This is the point that I have been making for a while. If F1 wants to get into the US, it has to make concessions. Simple. It has failed for 30 years and will go on failing if the business model is not sustainable. Simple.

      1. If look up from my computer and I see a garage pass for the 1984 Dallas Grand Prix hanging on Alan Fearnley’s World Champion print of Lauda. The heat making that race almost not happen. Across the room I see full access passes for each of the races in Phoenix that my firm provided on site communications for as well as the same for Detroit and Indianapolis. Each finding it’s own demise in one way or another. My fondness for Indy track comes from being born and raised there but have to admit that the track in Austin is the best foothold F1 has ever had in the U.S. and next weekend it can’t seem to help itself from spoiling that one as well. Why? It’s hard enough to be an F1 fan here (since 1976) as there is limited access to what is available in the U.K. with Sky Sports, BBC, etc. It was easier when I lived in Shanghai. Even today to see the best pre and post race footage of each race, in the states one has to search YouTube for that coverage that is consistently taken down. Let’s forget about finding new F1 fans for a moment and consider what happens if you loose even the more hardcore, loyal, long-tern fans here. Your move Mr. Eccelstone.

  16. “one must assume that either Ecclestone has done this deliberately, or he does not realise the impact that such a remark. Whatever the case, this brings down the sale value of the Formula One group”

    I assume that when you say “or he does not realise the impact that such a remark” your tounge is planted firmly in your cheek! 😉

      1. Here’s the mistake I’m hoping he made: that an 18-car grid has some real consequences for him… and happened because he refused to give the Marussia cars a cheap ride on his airplane… (am certainly not counting on it… but one can hope…)

          1. I was just stating my hope… beyond that, I see no statement of any kind in there, much less one for which support can be provided…

            My guess at what might be clarified: my *hope* is that there are consequences *and* that he brought this on by declining Marussia’s request for a free plane ride… am not saying he declined such a request, or even that there was such a request… rather, just hoping for a mistake-scenario of that calibre…

  17. “Let us bring our DW12 cars to race with them, we have 4 of them sitting at the shop and we have a ex-F1 driver!…”

    Money, and the amount of money have change the sport we do/work, Motorsport, and our lives around it, no matters if you work in F1 or in karting.
    Today a sponsor do no invest in our team aiming have “results” with in the next 5 years, today are not anymore the days where a driver was in formulaf ford/formula renault and team move with driver to F3, and later on the driver can do F2/F3000 and drag the team to that level and so on.

    Today if someone put a penny in a driver the expectation is to see the team/car winning. It cost him the same, one penny, so is stupid to put the sticker on the last car in the grid.
    There is not anymore that aim to make a team name or a brand success just for love or passion for it.

    An economist or an insurance guy will tell you, they have tell me, that we are the stupid people in the world. Why? You put all your assets all the value, car, tools, damper dynos,…and send it around a country/continent on the less secure transportation, a truck. If a truck gets in fire you loose everything! apart of your workshop. So nearly no body, no body, want to do insurance on race teams or race cars.

    Not only F1 should worry about its situation, the FIA should worry about the health of its championships. No more F3 in England for 2015, and this year running 8-9 cars per race. I am sorry that is like if english man stop speaking English…or Spanish fellas doing “Paella”.

    F1 is where is F1 because Mr.E is in control and he pull the strings to make the marionette perform well at the circus, so the circus can go from country to country doing events.
    Will be good to have 32 marionettes as the old days around 90’s were people will attempt to prequalifying different marionettes.
    Today who will put a penny in marionette #32 to help it development, NOBODY.
    I do understand that Caterham, Manor and Campos Meta F1, have been at the back of the grip, but nobody have made mention to their reliability, been #20 those days equals to be like #6 or#8 twenty years ago. Today they use much less fuel than last year and a bunch less fuel than many years ago. Nobody promotion that effort from F1 championship.
    F1 could have many more teams if they will not have let go teams as Super Aguri, Forti, Pacific…
    Unfortunately is no about your performance, is not about your knowlege. Back in 1991, Jordan enter F1 and their performance from my point of view were stoning. Imagine if they will have choose better drivers than Gachot and De Cesaris, i like them, but I do think as well the lack qualifying pace, so what why they start to far behind every race. Schumacher show the real potential of the car in SPA qualifying by been #5, but then later on Andrea nearly won the race. Tell me if that is not stoning, new in F1 and nearly win a race in SPA. (Congratulations Gary for that design)
    What happen to Jordan on the next race/years/, do they find a big sponsor to carry on their performance, the answer is no… and need to race with a car design to fit a different engine… Then once you are at the back of the grip no body remembers you anymore.

    The trend of motorsport, not only F1, in the last decade has have affects to the motorsport image it self and to the people who work in it. Working on a team, ie F3 and have a family is nearly impossible. If your team is wining every year the championship is maybe possible, but if your team is midfield, then bye-bye.

    I don’t mind, but many engineers we are forced to work selfemployee because team can’t not affort us doing one year payroll. So the way we have to survive is to do a regular championship, 8/9months and then find my self some winter project to do to however person show up or go to do some winter testing with some teams. This is very sad and very unhealthy for the motorpsort and for the teams because it make their value be reduce to nothing as the grey materia, the know-how, is out of their assets when arrive to sell the team. That is the true history.

    I have made Le Mans in 2010 and 2011 sleeping in the truck office, ie finish the engineering work and pull the bed and sleep. But I have done Le Mans above those things for what it means and for what it represents. I will like to know how many other people can make Le Mans race with the money we did. John Judd had square eyes when I ring the workshop bell and say, “can you rebuild the engine in time? we do Le Mans” , “where is the engine?”, ” here at the back of my car”….

    Unfortunately is MoneySport, not Motorsport.

      1. Simple or what ! Light bulb moment.
        Dont often comment, love to read Joes thoughts, mostly agree, occasionally differ but its Joes blog so live with that, its free, passionate and informed.
        However, over the last few years I have gradually noticed a decline in my own passion, which concerns me weekly, hence Joe`s passion, annoyance and occasionaly grumpiness bringing me back.
        I have a milestone “half something” birthday this year, have been following F1 since early 70`s when Uncle was motorsport mechanic. I recall a toy car where you moved the driver and the wheels turned, I have that vision today of a black and gold Lotus, it must have been a 72 Fittipaldi I guess but the passion was sown and the love grew.
        Forty years later I am a grumpy old geezer, loving the technology, rivalry, competition, even the danger despite recent events……but FIA weakness and financial events overshadowing racing has also diminished my energy for the sport I love.
        I felt at the point of considering an unthinkable divorce from the sport that I love after 40 years of partnership, not able to live any longer with the lies and deceit of my loved one, can I ever bring myself to walk away.
        Then some bloke Joe comes up with the simple comment “It is sport when the lights go green” and its like a slap across the chops. What was I thinking, thats what has bonded us for the those years and long may it continue.
        Thanks Joe, it is a business but then on Sunday we go racing….cant wait

  18. What’s to stop all parties agreeing that 18 cars are enough for 2015?

    If there is pressure to have a grid larger than 18 then might it be in the interest of bigger teams to subsidise Marussia? Assuming Caterham does indeed fold couldn’t the inevitable prize money that Marussia would receive for ‘cruise and collect’ mitigate the cost and be less hastle than running a third car? Maybe there could be 3 or 4 ‘warmed over’ 2014 Marrusia cars if they wanted fuller grids- interesting prospect for young driver programmes and sponsor ad space maybe?

    1. A question is whether contracts with the race tracks specify a minimum number of cars at the race. Does Austin’s contract, for instance, say that at least 20 cars must turn up or FOM has to reduce fees?

  19. With 18 cars, we suddenly have Sauber and Lotus as the Marussia and Caterham, unless they find some improved pace.

  20. There was an American show called Soap which had the bye-line “confused? – you will be!”. I think we are there now.

  21. This seems like a pretty terrible situation. Unless it’s all deliberate to try and hand control back to the FIA it sounds like the beginning of the end for F1 as we know it and a switch to Indycar style racing with just a few manufacturers.

  22. I dont think Bernie has ever uttered a word without careful deliberations. That said it raises my conspiracy hackles; Bernie driving down the value of the sport to pick it up on the cheap when it all goes to hell in a hand basket.

  23. I’d like to know why there’s been a constant stream of bloggery about Caterham and now this Marussia situation comes out of nowhere? Marussia is a points scoring Team this season while Caterham has done basically nothing but respond “present’.
    Could Jules being injured have begun the process or was there underlying circumstances all along?

    1. It has been there all the time. I don’t think the Bianchi situation changed anything. The Russian is still the Russian

  24. Is this the beginning of the end in F1 as we know it?
    Again another disaster for a USGP. The tire fiasco in Indianapolis, now 18 cars on the grid for Austin with Vettel starting in the pit lane. This means in Q1, one car will be eliminated. Not a good way to try and get more fans or even hold on to existing ones.

  25. Whilst I think that it is great that Marussia has a buyer lined up, I do worry about the sanity of any prospective buyers of an F1 team at this point in the sport’s history. It seems that just about every ownership group not funded by large corporation marketing money in the last 10 years has either given up and walked away, or is desperately struggling to stay afloat. I know the joke about how to make a small fortune in F1 is older than the hills, but it seems to be highly applicable at the present time.

  26. Is it possible that Alonso is counting on that we’ ll probably have only 18 cars next season?
    We know he’s dreaming of Merc, but is Merc one of designated teams to have 3 cars?

      1. Joe, is it possible that the teams agreed to these 3rd car rules assuming they’d never happen. Now that they almost certainly will happen the teams maybe assume that they will be able to get the rules changed in time for next year?

        1. The small teams are never going to agree to a system that drives them to the back of the grid. Thus the only way that this can happen is if all of them are wiped out or held to ransom and forced to agree to three cars. I do not see that happening because these people are fighters and they have spent their lives building these teams.

    1. Question: Do you think either Caterham or Marussia will have any presence in the paddock/race, if they decide not to participate in the Grand Prix?

  27. If we are going for far fetched ideas then how about this one; Ecclestone has made his money, is nearing the end of his time and, regardless of your personal opinion of him, obviously loves the sport he has helped build over the decades. Perhaps he is now deliberately creating a situation where the commercial rights deal becomes null and void, his loan shark backers are left with nothing and the FIA / teams are left holding all the playing cards. The sport gets the financial reshuffle it so badly needs, the failing teams get the cash injection they so badly need, formula one emerges from the darkness currently surrounding it and Bernie walks away like an elderly robin of Loxley. Would be a great send off for the old boy wouldn’t it………….

    1. Bernie Ecclestone and Robin Hood have one thing in common and it is not that they took from the rich and gave to the poor.

    2. The problem with that fanciful fiction is that a collapse of FOM and a return of the commercial rights to the FIA would be viewed as a colossal business failure of epic and historic proportions, one that would destroy the legacy of the man in charge, one Bernard Ecclestone.

      Not a chance.

      1. Obviously I do not know Mr Ecclestone personally but, based on the impression he gives on the TV, I don’t think he cares what the publics perception of him is in the slightest. IF old man B was planning on leaving CVC high and dry and returning power to the teams then I don’t believe the idea of “legacy” would enter the equation….

        Before someone feels the need to point out once again that this is all fantasy then I will re state that this was started as a “far fetched idea” and I do not for one second think its what’s actually happening. Would make a great story for Ron Howards next F1 film…?

        “he’s not our hero. He’s a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.”

  28. I’ve always said F1’s bussiness model is non-sustainable. It has been lroved over and over, and because of that the sport has been slowly replaced with a commercial showdown. It’s a pity, but the sport is broken.

  29. I suppose the full details of the deals between the circuits and FOM are secret as well? – I’m just wondering if a minimum number of cars are mentioned in those contracts as well?

      1. thank you for being a competent agent of FOM sir…,…,…, the actual number to the question which as yet to be asked is…twenty-six ( 26 ).
        ciao tutti!

        1. I am not an agent for FOM and I am sure that BE would laugh himself stupid at that suggestion. I have not idea what you are talking about with the 26.

  30. So, despite your prediction Joe that 3 car teams were “not a chance” in reply to my question a few days ago, it seems we are inevitably heading that way.So again I ask the question. Is there room for everyone in the silly season reshuffle?

    1. If you read the post, you can see why it is not going to happen. I don’t think I can say it any more clearly than I have said it. You can have three cars times but the cars have no value to anyone and appear randomly, messing up the races and driving the midfield to the back. It’s a disaster for the sport. If there was a budget cap and the revenues were shared fairly this would not be happening. It has been caused by people who do not care about the sport being in positions of power. What we need is the FIA to grow some teeth and the Commercial Rights Holders to stop being so greedy. The sport can easily sustain 11 teams but the structure at the moment is wrong. It needs to be fixed and if it has to be broken in order to be fixed then that must happen.

      1. That is indeed the only silver lining I can see here: that this shakes the stakeholders enough that they realise they need to change things in order for F1 to survive. It’s never going to be a frugal business – and nobody would want it to be – but right now it’s only feasible for enormous corporations who can afford to spend vast sums of money for (presumably) a limited number of years. That would be Red Bull and Mercedes, then. Ferrari is being subsidised to an extent, and can claim F1 as pretty much its only marketing budget to the bean counters at Fiat. Before Honda came along, even McLaren was looking iffy, and if the Honda project disappoints, McLaren will surely look iffy again. We all know what happened to Williams (although I cannot help but think it all started when they shunned tobacco sponsoring before it was fashionable – late 90’s I think, about the time McLaren was sponsored by West). Either 3 car teams, or 18 cars on the grid for next year might just do that. One hopes…

  31. Looking at all this from afar, it would appear Jenson Button’s possible move to Porsche WEC racing, free from Bernie would be a sensible move. Watching Mark Webber and Button sharing a Porsche at Le Mans would be more interesting than many F1 races e.g. Sochi

    1. Amen. Could paint em all the same color and declare it a one team ‘sport’ and if bottom line more positive in the short term the anonymous owners would be happy.

      I sometimes wonder how the present day scene as it were would be viewed had f1 not started as a real sport but rather a chat at the private zillionaires club, with one of the future ‘owners’ saying: “Hey, I’ve got a slick idea….”

        1. Carbon wrapping of components is not unusual as a temporary fix. If it had not been safe they would not have done it. These people are not idiots.

          1. It may have looked rough and the tabloids loved it but Joe is right, with Bianchi in mind no one was going to risk a drivers safety. All due respect to Kobiyashi but this isn’t 1969 – he’s much braver than I’ll ever be but if he thought it was unsafe, he shouldn’t have got in it on Sunday morning. Caterham management at the top may have been stupid but not the boys on the garage floor.

          2. Damn… and I thought duct tape was good… can you get me some of that carbon wrapping stuff? Just a roll or two?

  32. Wow, this sport just gets weirder and weirder. Is this a ‘normal’ year or does this kind of thing happen all the time? Really seems like everything is in turmoil.

    1. I was thinking I’ll be a third player at the Wimbledon men’s final next year. I can’t score any points but I might hit a few balls. Won’t effect the match at all.

  33. So long Caterham, it’s been nice knowing you.

    I feel sorry for the staff who have presumably worked their fingers to the bone the last few years and had very little to show for it, and are now likely to lose their jobs because owners have managed to really mess things up. I hope that Marussia and Sauber can avoid the same fate.

    IMO, third cars could only really work if the grid reduced to 7 or 8 teams and all ran third cars, that were all eligible for points. However that’s just my ramblings and would presumably require tearing up the rulebook and contracts and starting again. i.e. it will never happen.

    However if third cars are required on this seemingly rotational basis next year, the teams should be obliged to give the drives to their rookies and development drivers, to still allow more drivers into the sport, rather than trying to entice big hitters or old favourites (much as I would like to see Mark Webber or Rubens race again in F1)

    Another query re third drivers- would it just be the top two cars from the team that would score, whichever cars that may be, or would it be a designated non-scoring car that could push both team mates down the pecking order?

    Since we know that Haas will not enter until 2016, is there any news on the possible Romanian entry? – that seems to have gone a bit quiet.

  34. Joe: What sort of impact does this debacle have on Austin organizer’s contract? Would it stipulate full fee payment, despite a thin grid? At what point would they have leverage for fee rebate (I know, snowball’s chance)? Inquiring minds here in the US.

  35. Joe,
    Gilles Villeneuve started his career in 1977 driving a 3rd McLaren at the British GP. In 1982 Tyrrel had 3 cars at the Canadian GP but the driver, who was the youngest qualified driver then, had to surrender his seat to his teammate because of the tragic Riccardo Paletti accident. What is difference between now&then ?

        1. Cos costs and technical complexity have grown exponentially since then. Back then you could wheel out the spare chassis and a high mileage engine and have a fair chance of finishing. Sponsorship situation is massively more complicated now too.

    1. Actually , the year and event was 1980 Canadian GP. Then 19 year Mike Thackwell , had to give up his Tyrrell to one of his teamates either JP Jarier or Derek Daly.
      Both of Thackwell ‘ s teamates cars were damaged in a huge 1st lap wreck
      It was caused when WC challengers , Alan Jones in a Williams and Nelson Piquet , in a Brabham tangled at the front and caused a huge dominos effect pile up behind.

    1. I think the absence of any comments from Marussia says enough. They could’ve easily dismissed this, but they didn’t. Perhaps they are keeping their options open for now, but the fact they haven’t dismissed the statement tells me they are at least considering not going.

  36. Joe, a little correction if I may. According the sporting regs (http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/1-2015%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%202014-06-29.pdf) the 2015 entry fee is $516,128, not $50,000 as stated. Mercedes will also pay $6194 for each 2014 WCC point scored, the others $5161.

    Now a question: As you noticed much of the regulations make specific reference to two cars, if we are going to three cars is it fair to assume that the sporting (and presumably technical) regs have to be re-issued?
    If so when do you think we could expect them and could anything else be added to help reduce costs ?

        1. My numbers were based on internal FIA documentation. I didm;t even think of looking in the Sporting Regulations

          1. Its all us mere mortals have Joe !

            I wonder how the big discrepancy comes about. Strange.

            Given the Nov 1st deadline for 2015 entry, it looks like Caterham won’t enter for next year, unless the administrator enters them (I very much doubt they’d pay for that).
            So, anyone buying it as an entire team and wanting to race would have to get permission for a late entry – one assumes that this wouldn’t be a big issue due to the lack of cars ?

            Intrigued by the comments about a Marussia buyer too, I guess you can’t spill the beans, but do you know if are they likely to make a go of it ? or another struggler ?

  37. By reporting the facts – as far as they are known –
    You have been forced to write satire.

    No fault of your own –
    Simply a reflection on the current sad state of affairs in F1.

  38. Lots of useful info in the past few days, so thanks for this. You said earlier that, were Marussia to finish 10th in the Constructors’ Championship this year, they would get a $90m windfall. My question therefore is: would they get anything extra if they finished 9th instead of 10th? The reason I ask is because, if not, then they may have an incentive to simply ‘shadow’ Caterham for the rest of the season. That is, if Caterham aren’t competing in USA and Brazil, and if Marussia are in a delicate financial situation, it might be rational for the team to cut their losses and also not fly out to USA or Brazil. They could put any logistics, freight etc. costs they save towards next year, along with the $90m (if they get it). This will, at the very least, buy time and enable 2015 work to proceed until fresher investment arrives (particularly if not attending also may push the price down for buyers as you suggest here). Is there any chance that this could be their thinking? Of course, if they get a bonus for finishing 9th, then there is more of an incentive to turn up and try and hold off Sauber.

  39. “In the modern day and age it is astonishing that a sport can have secret rules and one wonders how the International Olympic Committee and other international bodies that recognise the FIA agreed to allow the federation to be a member of their organisations when such things are still the case.”

    Well, quite. We can only assume that a lot of money is changing hands. Perhaps the ownership of F1 is at stake and the value of the group needs to be reduced. Very grubby.

  40. IF (big if) a grid pf less than 20 cars threatens Bernie’s continued control of F1, I imagine we can expect Bernie to do his usual divide-and-conquer trick, encouraging teams to work deals with him individually in return for their votes. Ff history is any guide, we can expect at least some of the teams to comply.

    However, any significant changes would require unanimous approval from the teams. Given the tendency of teams to refuse to band together for their collective well-being in favor of short-term individual benefits, might the need for unanimity change these sheep-like tendencies?

    More to the point: are there team owners who will want to stick it to Bernie if given that chance? If so, what’s your guess re: how many? And are they capable of working together?

      1. Sorry (again) for being thick (again)…

        I can understand how Ferrari can subvert any effort to have all the teams unite. But I don’t (yet) understand how Ferrari can prevent 2 (or 3 or 4) other team owners from saying “no” when Bernie’s proposal requires unanimous consent.

        What am I missing?

  41. So… we have a situation where the details of the rules about the grid are crucial… and the rules are a dang secret… (you couldn’t make this up…)

    In that situation, what does a seasoned F1 journalist do? Does he call everybody who might tell him a thing or two about details he’s not supposed to know about? Or does he know from experience that doing that is pointless and instead waits for a willing individual or three to call him? Or what?

  42. Also… what would motivate a now-former team owner to keep secrets? (Especially if the way things are run helped ruin his chances and cost him buckets of money…)

    1. Non-disclosure agreements inevitably exceed the duration of the base contracts, often by a significant margin and breaking them not only carries huge financial penalties, it reduces your opportunity to sign them in the future (because potential partners will have less trust in you keeping their secrets). Since NDAs are a crucial part of any significant business dealing, no-one hoping to continue in the business world is going to know ling breach an NDA unless there is a significant financial benefit for them.

      1. OK… but I wasn’t suggesting that a now-former owner would hold a press conference to tell the world… rather, just a small untraceable leak to someone he trusts to keep his identity secret… not copies of documents, just a few verbal information-rich sentences…

  43. It seems strange that the Audi story appeared in a mass market magazine (Auto Express ) in the same week that two minor teams stop racing. Is F1 better at distraction PR than I thought? Or am I cynical?

    1. The Audi is story is one of a string of similar stories in the course of the last 10 years. None of them have come true. I believe that the entire VW group will stay out of Formula 1 until there is new management in the sport.

  44. Just thinking: if third cars were unable to get classified (just as if they were disqualified after the race), then they would not affect the results of midfield teams – although it would be unclear for viewers if driver if in P7 or P9 (if there ar two third cars ahead of him).
    I also thought that it might be interesting to see drivers of one team competing against each other to get classified, although if the third cars would run just occasionally, then team orders could be applied to let the nominal No1 or No2 through.

  45. I wonder if we could see the return of the Jim Clark Trophy (1987) ?

    Take the best GP2 teams with their GP2 cars, engines and drivers to race in F-1 from 2015.

  46. Joe, whats your view on the story going around today that the teams have already agreed to hand over 3rd cars to rival teams? It seems completely against what we’ve been told so far about 3rd cars.

  47. Joe,

    Any comment on Bernie’s statement that third cars would be supplied by the major teams (or at least sound ones) – but run by ‘ailing’ ones, and that doing so would somehow support the latter finanically? (I feel like I’m listening to the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland)

    1. Well, based on everything I know from the agreements in place, this is either a report from someone who does not understand what they are being told (which is quite possible as thew reporter has no experience of racing at all) or Bernie is making it up as he goes along. On balance, I doubt it is the latter explanation. However, when the rules are secret one does not know what may have been included…

      1. “He is the icon of the new era of court stenographers masquerading as journalists.” – Andrew Sullivan, writing about someone (and something) else entirely.

  48. Thanks for taking the time to write these posts about the Caterham, Marussia and third car situations, Joe – we just don’t get this kind of insight and analysis from other sites and I, for one, really appreciate it.

    Do you know how Q1 and Q2 will run at Austin and São Paulo with only 18 cars? Will 4 cars be eliminated in each session or 2 in Q1 and 6 (as usual) in Q2?

    1. Given 20 cars (e.g. 2009) was 10 + 5 + 5, and 22 (current) was 10 + 6 + 6 while 24 (inc. HRT) was 10 + 7 + 7, I’m going to guess that 18 cars will be 10 + 4 + 4.

  49. The latest article by BE’s mouthpiece about bigger teams providing weak teams with a third car is a hoot!
    Could it really be that convoluted? Heaven help F1 if it is…

    1. It is utter tosh. I suspect that the journalist in question did not understand what he was being told. He’s not very good at the actual racing side of things as he’s not been in a paddock as a working journalist for at least a decade.

      1. I’m guessing you’re referring to the slightly baffling piece I’ve just read by an F1 ‘business journalist’, the proposal in that instance sounds rather more like customer cars than anything else. If Joe says the guy is not in the paddock that just about says it.

        Meanwhile a claim in I think the same paper that Marussia have ‘filed papers with the high court’ indicating they are going into administration? Can we believe that Joe?

        You certainly don’t need High Court papers to bring in the Administrators, however if you were responding to a winding up order or seizure order in the high court then you may well serve notice that you are in Admin to level it out for the other creditors. If true! and I have no idea if it is! then more dreadful news and I hear that a well known historically F1 connected road car company, where some ex F1 engineers have always been able to pick up a bit of freelance work is losing 435 jobs next week. Very sad and tough times, I’m very saddened for everyone on the shop floor at these companies who I know give 100%.

    2. It doesn’t make much sense, does it?

      Even if you supplied some struggling/failing team with cars and parts, they still need to have the money to have turned up to the circuit with engineers to run them in the first place, surely. Unless the other teams are supposed to provide the money for that too!

      Much more realistic to just run a third car as part of your own existing team than trying to help prop up someone else’s mess.

  50. So assuming Marussia and Caterham do not compete next year and no new teams join, what happens to the 10th place team prize money?

    1. I believe that there is the possibility of the reallocation of the prize money if all the signatories agree to it.

      1. “I believe that there is the possibility of the reallocation of the prize money if all the signatories agree to it.”

        Is that possibly the only thing the F1 teams could actually agree on?

    2. Perhaps Bernie will want to just give the 10th place share to Ferrari… the interesting part will be how he snorks everybody else into agreeing to it…

  51. Presumably Lotus and Sauber are feeling slightly more confident now there teams look stronger to the buyers out there?

  52. Could someone clarify something re this “3rd Car” thing? The theory is a Team runs 3 cars and the 3rd car is a non-scoring one.
    So is the “3rd car” nominated to be the same car & driver each time it runs? Or can that change from race to race?
    Or maybe a team could have 3 “proper” cars with competing drivers and whichever driver finishes behind the other two does not score anything?
    That last option could really get things spiced up in a race! Imagine 3 car teams this season, and Mercedes have Hamilton, Rosberg AND Alonso all fighting for the top two places, knowing that if they finish last out of the 3, they get nothing. (Then again, that will just mean Rosberg never wins and rarely comes 2nd 😉 )

    1. If they happen, these third cars will not run in every race. They will rotate randomly between teams that can afford them. They never score points but those who finish behind only get the points for the position in which they finish and do not move up

  53. The best idea I have heard is to freeze areo like they do for engines ( cant remember where whose comment that was sorry )
    I would add that at each Grands Prix there could be an extra days running to be like a test day so that after each few races ( or once or twice a year ) teams would be allowed an aero update. This in theory could reduce the need, and cost, for continual areo updates which id consider to be the new area for most cost since engines have been frozen. But of course the teams would find the most expensive way of doing this….
    I was also wondering the other day if maybe the second tier teams of each engine manufacturer should start charging their respective maunfurers for all the information that they are providing them by running their engines?
    Although Im sure its not possible!

  54. Joe I have scoured your site but not seen it addressed – if I missed it, I apologise in advance.

    With Marussia and Caterham missing the Austin race, what becomes of Q3? Is it, in effect, another practice session for the front runners with just two cars being dropped out then?

  55. I believe Joe said the details can be juggled around to keep it interesting… but as yet no particulars are known…

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