When you stop to think about it, the current story of formula 1 in Germany makes no sense at all. We have had Germans challenging and winning World Championships for 15 years. There’s a German at Ferrari, at Mercedes, at Force India and the dominant team flies the German flag. So why are Germans not turning up at the German Grand Prix? Are the stars of today unappealing to the fans of yesteryear? Is it a social thing? Are the ticket prices too high?
These questions surround F1’s biggest mystery at the moment. What has happened to German race fans? They still flock to DTM and Races at the old Nürburgring but they don’t show up at Grands Prix. I don’t claim to know the answer except I have a feeling it is to do with the fans who were inspired by Schumacher not being inspired by the new generation: Rosberg, Vettel, Hulkenberg etc. all of them have much to commend them and all are doing well.
I guess it must be the prices… No wonder they want their fees cut. The Bernie Ecclestone statement that the race will switch to Hockenheim in 2015 seems to me to be a wake-up call to the Nürburgring, because Hockenheim doesn’t know anything about the plan (!) and, in any case, they don’t a race every year because they need the extra time to raise money to pay the fees.
One cannot help but think that this is once again a question of F1 pricing itself out of the market. That’s not really smart when one considers the power of the German automotive industry.
joeblogsf1 
Also, Bernie just gave Germany a lot of money. That constitutes money moving in the wrong direction and there must be some form of restitution for this crime.
Worringly find myself on the side of the Germans here.
Personally I’m astounded that the Brits are prepared to pay the stupid prices to get in to Silverstone, never mind the second mortgage required to actually get a decent view.
I totally agree with you on this one.
But until people vote with their feet (or wallets)…
Hi Joe- there are a lot of reasons for German fans not showing up at races but pricing is not the only or real issue. A lot of GErman fans still Support Ferrari which as you know isn`t doing that brilliantly. Vettel fans tend to be younger and less likely to be at the track.
The main problem is Hockenheim- it is a crap track and you are totally restricted to your grandstand and your grandstand only. Even with a fab expensive ticket you can still only access your grandstand and not even any of the GA areas. Fans want to walk around the track, explore and enjoy the experience. this you cannot do there so Germans prefer to go to Spa where you can walk around the whole track whatever ticket you have. I have also experienced that Germans pitch up at Hockenheim- have massive all night parties and don`t even make it anywhere near the track…I could go on…..I have been to Hockenheim many times- DTM is great- you get Close to the Drivers and the racing is also fun. F1 there is a joke. And yes I have been to every race in Spa bar 1 since 2005.
Incorrect. Grandstand ticket holders CAN access the General Admission areas and it is easily possible to walk the entire lap.
I think responses like yours should be printed on a massive billboard and wheeled in front of every F1 team’s factory, double the size for Bernie and FIA’s HQs! Obviously a true fan, well done. I used to walk actually on the track with friends at Brands after the GP many years ago – seems unbelievable now.
Shortening Hockenheim has hardly helped.
Is the Nurburgring not still embroiled in the legal outcomes of not having any money? Or being taken over for the umpteenth time.
Were they not being sued or taken over by the local, district or state council. There was a new industrial owner, a broken funfair, all in all a bit of a mess it seemed, from so far away. I am sure the real story is more complex and heartbreaking.
Yesterday though I watched a video of a lap of the Nordschlieff in the snow in what looked like a formula ford. We tend to forget how long a real racetrack used to be. (whatever happened to Sabine Schmitz?)
If only a non-championship “Ring Cup” race could be held outside the clammy grasp of FOM, they could maybe raise enough to pay for a GP.
We used to have quite a few non-championship races in olden times but that was before it became “money and lawyers”, way back when it was “racing”.
Nurburgring is a sad but typical casualty of the high FOM fees which blight all traditional, privately or commercially owned circuits; most of which spend the rest of the year, or two years, struggling to make up the GP fee and considering new ownership structures.
Ideas like your “Ring Cup” are why I think breaking up F1 could be the genuine evolution that we need. Start bringing race options, to teams, drivers, fans, circuits, and there would evolve a new vibrancy, or so I believe.
What needs to happen, is the only way a real cost reduction can ever happen: parallel the end of “Quantitative Easing”, ushering in real volatility and “crashes”, basically what you have is the renewed price discovery of the clearing prices at which people really value assets.
F1 has a equally broken or twisted up illogical model, but is supported by the artificial distributions of money, that prop up artificial structure. Destroy the structure, and you don’t necessarily have disaster, but a new reality in which levels will find themselves.
Consider teams go bust. That sucks. But getting back to he grid is presently too expensive. What nonsense that a entry is valuable, even if the team has disintegrated, even carries negative value in terms of recognition or reputation, if you include business level reputational values you adjust a lot… In a restructured F1, there would be far easier entry for new teams. They would come afresh, rise out of the ashes of piles of pink slips and P45s, maybe, but the value, the true value of the sport is not going away. If anything, it goes up, if you take away the artificiality of the structures. Money will be found, talent will be hired.
Like the old adage: what cannot go on, goes on until it cannot, that is all I can know for certain, but I know that, with a real dollop of genuine, heartfelt, hope. F1 people are not lame middle managers or ageing miners, they are a exceptional lot, and I think there would be a explosion of talent that we could see, hear, witness, and love anew, not any disaster.
Totally agree with that. Of course the old argument against the length of the original circuit was the lack of interest for spectators ie number of laps completed. But with Bernie’s focus being on TV and ad incomes it is TV itself which would benefit from the spectacle. Mind you, I can’t see modern F1s ‘jumping’ as they used to! Yet another casualty of the modern era – fingers crossed for Spa’s future.
But to CVC managment as long you you pay you can play. They will go where ever the money is. If German tracks cant come up with the money the circus will go elsewhere?
Would the German fans watch it if there ‘german’ cars i,e mercs were actually built in Germany rather than England? Who knows? Vettel is no Schumacher he is not the arnie of the Motorsport.
All very interesting!
I’m sure the prices are enough to explain it… but here’s something I don’t know: Because Bernie’s trial-and-settlement was in a German court, might that have gotten sufficient media coverage in Germany to turn the nation’s stomach? Any Germans here who can tell us?
Joe, I imagine you know plenty of Germans within racing circles… do you know what they think about this?
They don’t understand it either
I read an interwiev with the Bavarian prosecuter who explained the case to a journalist.
His concern was that he didn’t had enough evidence to put Ecclestone for sure behind bars so he rather went for the money on the table instead of perhaps ending up empty handed after many years of court fights.
Possibly Ecclestone would have died anyway during that time so there was not much to gain by carrying on to fight a more than 80 years old man for perhaps the next seven years.
And even if Ecclestone would eventually have lost the case after all those years and would still be alive, the judge might have refused to send him to jail because he might be deemed unjailable by a doctor for reasons of deteriorating health.
It seems that the settlement was not a quick shot but a reasonably thought out desicion by the prosecuter.
Just for the record, this is the same prosecuter who banged out close to a billion Euros for the Bavarian State in a few industrial cases agains big companies like Siemens. He’s no slouch, that’s for sure.
Could Bernie’s court case have done anything to add to this (checkered) flagging interest in Germany?
It will not have helped
It didn’t help the cause that the show master and the reigning Champ criticised the current cars publicly either, claiming that the sound of the new cars is no good. Not a good strategy to promote the new Formula.
love the nom de plume 😉
It’s no wonder F1 can’t find it’s feet,when it keeps shooting huge holes in them…
I have followed motorsport for 40 years. I have a reasonably well paid job and no children. I theoretically could afford to go to Silverstone but when I look at the prices I find that I’m reluctant to spend that much. Perhaps the Germans feel the same….
A lot of people don’t realize that the average German is not especially wealthy.
To pay the enormous costs of re-unification pay was largely frozen.
Thats a long time ago…
We heard a lot about Schumachers appeal to the blue collar, working class German fan – something Rosberg clearly doesn’t have an obvious connect with – but then isn’t small town boy Vettel only a few years out of his mini-schuey fan phase – and even with Schumacher back in Mercedes for a few years, we still didn’t see the resurgence of the German GP.
I wonder why it’s so different to Silverstone? Is it just an expected pricing thing? A different supporter culture? Be interested to hear what German fans had to say.
The last time I saw this question asked, it may have been here, the replies seemed to indicate that the Germans love a local hero who crushes all opposition but they don’t really care which sport he comes from, if he’s winning they’ll follow him. I don’t know if that’s true but it was the impression I got from the other replies. I don’t think ticket price would be an issue if they had another Schumacher (M not R).
Will be interested to see what those more closely involved say.
Germans tend to be very pragmatic about spending. As you, I feel that they see no value in the “show” at current prices.
Would Hockenheim have to accept this? I guess there was probably a clause in the GP sharing arrangement, but this would surely put them on the backfoot for promotion, ticketing, organizing contractors etc.
I suspect you’re spot on with regard to F1 pricing itself out of the market, particularly when you consider that the Bundesliga is one of the most competitively priced football leagues in Europe (so when the casual fan does the maths, it simply makes no sense to spend half an entire season’s worth of football on attending a single F1 race).
There is also the possibility that Germany is simply the first indication that more ardent followers of motorsport are increasingly disenfranchised with the premier series and turning to alternatives such as DTM, WEC and MotoGP (all three of those series are witnessing rising attendances which is in contrast to F1’s situation).
Ticket Prices & conditions.
I’ve been to Hockenheim twice (>12 years ago), now even living in Zurich where it’s an easy drive, I cannot justify the circa €450 ticket price, plus hotel plus travel etc. You need to spend that amount of money on a ticket to get a decent seat, with a view of a big screen (to see the rest of the action). Hotel’s are difficult to find (& expensive), camping like I used to do, is no longer an attractive option & the facilities are basic.
On the official F1 website, weekend general admission tickets to Austria are €105 Tickets for Spain are discounted. Spa general Admin, €135 for race day, to walk through the mud & sit in a tree.
It’s just no longer appealing for me (Bernies target audience, although I wear a Tag Heuer & not a Rolex)…
My suggestion: Give Bernie & all the team principals a €1000 budget & tell them to get from home to a race in Europe, buy a 3 day ticket, get accommodation, food, drink etc. Then we might see some action on ticket prices!
“My suggestion: Give Bernie & all the team principals a €1000 budget & tell them to get from home to a race in Europe, buy a 3 day ticket, get accommodation, food, drink etc. Then we might see some action on ticket prices!”
Yes I agree, this falls into the same category as my dream of banning all MPs and government ministers from using private healthcare and public schools, we should then see a most remarkable improvement in our hospitals and education system.
David Cameron’s son Ivan, was treated by my sister in law at Great Ormond Street prior to his death. There were no airs and graces reported, just humble and concerned parents that respected the doctors and loved their child.
Sorry to add a little colour to your black and white view of ‘them’.
Point well made about personality and I’m pleased to hear it but rpaco does in my humble opinion have a point on education in particular. People opting out of the state education system means that there is not nearly the pressure to improve it that would be imposed by everyone having to use the same system. I appreciate this is nothing to do with F1!!
You couldn’t make it up. The ‘boss’ says the race will switch to Hockenheim, but they can’t afford the bosses fees. Comical and shambolic.
Instead we go to Qatar… yuck
No, we don’t
The race can take place if Bahrain drops its veto. Might happen if they get compensation for withrawing their veto for another race in the middle east, who knows?
If we look at the bankrupt Nürburgring, no single German auto manufacturer had the interest to buy it. So if they’re not willing to spend money in motorsports, don’t expect it from the viewers. And tbh I was at the Hockenheimring in 2014 and was surprised how awful the new V6T sounded, even the GP2 cars were more exciting.
Maybe the fact that the sport’s promoter does little in the way of promoting is an important factor as well.
“Maybe the fact that the sport’s promoter does NOTHING in the way of promoting is an important factor as well.”
There, fixed it for you.
yup.
Doesn’t Bernie realize there is economic tailwinds blowing in the world?
I quit going to German races after a very bad experience getting to and fro the track, that took hours to and fro the parking in Hockenheim and ruined the experience. I since chose Abu Dhabi, Sepang and even Interlagos (when you take cab), where these issues are much less. And I’d never go to the Silverstone race because of this inconvenience. I think this is a factor which one should not neglect.
“Hockenheim doesn’t know anything about the plan”
Another example of how all the F1 “journalists” utterly fail to do any research or ask ANY questions – I didn’t see a single article yesterday that did anything other than trot out the quotes from Bernie.
Pathetic.
It does kinda seem like FOM, CVC and Bernie are a bit like the FIFA and the IOC in that they all seem to be more than willing to bilk states that seem to be in the ascendance and are willing to fork out large fees to boost their profile and “self-esteem” by appearing to be big boys, while taking for granted and trying to squeeze every last shilling from the venues and populations that managed to help establish the sport.
It’s similar to how some of the the US professional team sports operate when they move from city to city, extracting sweetheart tax deals, subsidies, or taxpayer funded construction of their venues.
If venues like Russia, Azerbijan, Qatar, India, Brazil, Turkey, South Africa Bahrain, and so on are willing to spend hundreds of millions in hosting events, building venues, and looking for glory through these big events, with mainly the hope of elevating their profile, with hope of greater recognition on the world stage, and possible financial return through tourism, or greater brand recognition, then the old guard is in essence forced to play the same game of spending millions to compete against those looking for a boost to their ego (be it a nation, promoter, or charasmatic/strong leader).
I can’t help but think that it’s a downward spiral and a game where the only winners are the sport-a-crats, where fans, and lovers of sport and the games, are either ignorant patsies and dupes, or if they are aware; jaded, disenchanted, and powerless to affect change in this, so just choose not to pay into the corrupt system, when its fees get too high.
I think there are some who can easily pay to attend events in some of these sports (granted probably a small percentage whom are aware, and frustrated by the corruption of the bodies, and people administering some sports) who after a certain point of not wanting to encourage the bastards, some degree of moral outrage, or just plain frustration of seeing something deminished by greed, corruption by those who don’t hold the legacy as dearly as they do, just start to say NO.
Granted this is a bit of a ramble, but with the crossover of the Sochi Olympics, and the Russian Grand Prix, there’s a perfect example of the ego of an individual trying to elevate their profile through those events, and willing to spare no cost in the process of achieving that goal. Granted it’s rather transparent to many outsiders, but that willingness to spend. by such people affects anyone else wanting to participate.
At this point it seems that unless something were done in regard to CVC having the control it does with FOM, and the fees, there really isn’t much that could be done for some of the legacy venues not willing to continue to pay escalating fees, without a chance to get a legit return of their investment. Because CVC doesn’t have a true interest in the sport, nor by their structure should they. Their interest is in providing a profit and increasing rate of return on investment to their shareholders.
It has to be money.
I don’t know about Germany but at Silverstone you’re looking at between £155 and £340 for a grandstand ticket on race day. Let’s call that £250 average price, I assume Germany is similar.
Add in transport, accommodation, food and drink and you’re going to be pushing £600. I know because I price it up each year and each time I think £1500 for the wife and I to watch 2 hours of racing against a week somewhere warm.
If that’s what it cost to put on the show or all of that money went to putting on the show then maybe but not with how F1 is today.How they think a younger audience is going to get into it when a family day out costs a grand I have no idea. The hole thing is becoming quite tedious now, I’m starting to wonder what else the £600 spend on Sky could buy. Last year I missed watching more races than I have done for 15 odd years.
Spot on Matt. Compare those prices to a season ticket in the bundesliga – cheapest are ~£200 and on average they are £550…for a WHOLE season. Any sports fan in Germany will see that F1 is massively overpriced and one can enjoy several other major sporting events (combined) at a fraction of the cost.
Not only that but Bundesliga ticket prices are a positive bargain when compared with the Premiership. Possibly because the fans have a significant stake in nearly all German clubs.
Time for a fan buy-out of F1?
Now you can pay per view on Sky at £10 a day with AppleTV or NowTV, it’s only £100 a season to watch the races that BBC aren’t showing live… Why pay more?
Did Michael Schumachers comeback have a positive bump on German Grand Prix attendance?
F1 is no longer value for money. Even if Siverstone does cut their prices I can still go to Le Mans for 5 days and 4 nights, pay for the GA ticket, camping permit, eurotunnel and minibus hire for less than it would cost me to go to Silverstone for raceday! And I live 100km from Silverstone!
Its a no brainer! its probably the same for fans in Germany and why they go to the DTM over F1!
Its not just motorsport – for the broader sports fan, they can get a season ticket for an entire season of bundesliga for as little as ~£200. F1 makes no financial sense and only the completely insane or immensely wealthy (or those lucky enough to get free tickets/pit passes) would give F1 a second’s thought.
Part of the reason might be the good old rule of diminishing returns, anothr part might be psychology: Michael Schumacher was regarded as “one of us”, a not too strategically thinking young guy carrying the ever so sympathetic underdog tag when he appeared on the scene who then went on to win and win and win. I have no data to prove this, but I think German F1 fans tend to have more of a working class background. So the “one of us” element was always crucial to Schumacher’s positive image and the fondness of many German fans for him. The occasional rule bending was accepted and even applauded as a sign of cleverness and as positively sneaky. And then he went and (in many fans’ perception) single handedly revitalised Ferrari.
Schumacher had just left the building, in came Vettel whose underdog story was basically the same with a few important exceptions: he’s rather reclusive and he appears to be a bit smarter than your average racing driver and he tells jokes that not everyone understands. He’s eloquent and he speaks proper English. His English might even be better than some F1 viewers’ German. Shocking. There is far less of a “he’s one of us” element attached to him. Additionally Red Bull as a brand and a multi million Euro business conglomerate is not really working class stuff.
Rosberg tries really hard (maybe too hard) to appear as down to earth and as German as possible, wearing football jerseys and such. But he still comes across as too clever and too posh. Some don’t even believe he’s a proper German, what with his Finnish dad and having lived in Monte Carlo for all of his life. For some he might also be too pretty. As a German working class F1 viewer (yes, I’m simplifying here) it’s not that easy to root for someone they call “Britney”.
Hulkenberg is not a winner (yet). And also a bit too funny.
Since 1993 the poor Germans have been filled to the brim with F1. RTL, Germany’s biggest TV broadcaster, and “Bild”, Germany’s biggest tabloid, have featured the sport rather extensively. People might just be tired of it.
Some observers have thought that MSC’s era coinciding with the development of the reunified Germany, captured a spirit you grasp, there, Bürgermeister: he seemed always a regular guy. And that, at that time, was very important, to a country struggling with all sorts, even the “Teuro shock”, which I remember, a loaf costing a DM was a Euro, the next day. Much grumbling, in good natured but deeply concerned, German fashion, ensued.
I really did like Schumi, he never came across to me as a privileged child of anyone. Like you, I contrast Nico as a seemingly very nice boy, the kind I’m more familiar with from my years in a rarefied public school. Modest, but taught so, and a very finely tuned act, possibly, at that. Calm and confidence from position and good upbringing, rather than through adversity and that particular achievement that comes so much harder. That same hard achievement that resonates with every German I have known, and especially the one I loved so much. So, things are very different, how the new drivers are seen. I don’t know how to scrub off the scented polish that gave rise to the “Britney” moniker, at all ..
MS was a true working class hero of the highest level, something the current drivers will not achieve. Rosberg is from a priviledged backgound and that pretty much doesn’t appeal to the masses and is in stark contrast to MS’s upbringing. Rosberg may be one of the fastest guys on track, he’s a faster qualifier than even Hamilton which says a lot, still many think he doesn’t have MS’s-in-his-prime devastating speed. Hülkenberg is in F1 for many years but still not a proven winner, he’s probably too tall and too heavy to be a serial winner. Vettel probably comes closest to MS, yet he seems less dedicated to racing at the maximum all the time since he seems to give in so easily when the car isn’t to his liking. MS always gave it his all even when the car was crap. People think Vettel sometimes does not. And people probably think he’s too elitist to appeal to the broad masses, MS in contrast never was elitist, even with all his money he always lead the life of a simple man and gave millions to charity, sometimes as much as 10 millian dollars on a single occasion. You never hear that about Vettel.
You need to take those rose-tinted spectacles of your’s to an optician and ask whether they are still good… And then Google “non-elitist tax haven mansion on shores of Lake Geneva”
A bit too much praise for Schumacher isn’t Joe? Time to brush him off a bit, it had it coming.
It is telling though how the fans still see Schumacher and feel about him. I never read that about other former drivers, but perhaps that is because my glasses are too rose-tinted. I was and am – still burning every evening a candle for him – a Schumacher fan and agree with Bürgermeister and following replies. Enjoying the fruit of his hard work does not make Schumacher an elitist. Time to get started with the testing and racing.
I’m afraid I don’t understand your point…
Owning a house in Switzerland doesn’t make you an elitist per se. It’s also in the person’s behaviour to be classified as an elitist or not. Inside his mind MS is still a working class hero, and always was.
On another note, I would be very surprised if Vettel could replicate the success of MS while at Ferrari. I saw Mansell, Prost and Alonso failing, it doesn’t seem so easy to achieve what MS or Lauda achieved at Ferrari.
Btw MS was the most searched term on google last year.
“Local Boy Made Good”, is a story most regular people like to hear, surely?
And, sorry to self reply, but the way marketing companies go about business, they pretty much force you to exist in their world of tax havens and obscure accounting; choosing to live where he did, I doubt however was anything to do with that, he could have kept his money and lived about anywhere. Only Brits and Americans get taxed on income no matter where it arises.
Things that Bernie seems to care about:
1. Selling TV rights for F1 and getting lots of money for it
2. Charging lots of money for the privilege of hosting an F1 race (hopefully with a government paying)
3. Anything that gets in the way of the above
4. Minimising costs = profit.
Things that Bernie seems to not care about:
Everything else – including, but not limited to the german automotive industry, fans, teams, the FIA, opinions.
I’m sure that he would welcome the opportunity to say that one of the heritage races (Germany) can’t be run because no-one is willing to stump up the fees…so, we shall wander off to some emerging market country and stage one there instead, thanks to the generous and copious public purse. Is the German GP one of those mandated by the FIA or whatever document mandates these things? If it is, I bet he won’t get a particularly good deal from Hockenheim.
Or maybe German fans like proper racing, not the synthetic rubbish dished up by F1 with its silly tyres, stupidly expensive engines and “millions for a tenth” aero. DTM and sports cars at the ring? Why wouldn’t you
And yet DTM has mandatory pit stops, have also introduced DRS, have suffered from rampant cost inflation (hence the increasing standardisation of design – the cars now have a standard chassis, transmission, driveshaft, brakes etc.), want to ntroduce small capacity turbocharged engines with hybrid drive systems and, as Dr Ulrich points out, DTM is also a series that is heavily reliant on aerodynamics for performance and the manufacturers in that series are also spending millions a year on aerodynamic tweaks that have microscopic gains on performance.
Perhaps the day when the sport disappears up its own backside is now of the present tense.
I still rue the day those broadcasting rights were signed over. How different the single seater landscape would be had that deal not occurred. This is supposed to be a sport of engineering and human excellence yet its money money money.
Irrespective of what is happening on the track, with the nonsense politics of the sport and a competitive entertainment market I think you’ll find a lot of people have lost interest, which has lead them to spending their dollars elsewhere.
The problem is with these politics, they are not technical issues in relation to the technical sport. These are usually problems where immaturity, narcissism, ego and even an anti competitive spirit get in the way. The solution is normally common sense – people at home can figure that out, people at the pub talk about it, yet the problems still persist. The punters find it offensive, the punters find it patronizing, and it simply gets to the point where they have better things to do.
The sport is substantially out of touch with reality. The typical person on the street will basket its ethical and moral compass with the likes of any boxing organization, FIFA and the IOC. There comes a point in time where people simply get sick of the crap.
I doubt the average German punter wants to give money to the man who avoided bribery charges in Germany by basically buying his way out of prosecution. And thats really it – behind the man, the power, the dynasty, the legend that runs Formula 1, the typical and targeted Formula 1 fan cannot stand the guy.
On the disappearing act: we do seem to revolve about the same seemingly intractable issues, Ouroboros* style. It’s a frustrating thought, therefore, that logically we may all be up where the sun don’t shine. If your sunshine is common sense, that has felt very true for a long while…
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros
Good point about the “fine” settlement. Germany is doing okay overall, now, only because of genuinely sensible, early, belt tightening, that they started long ago. Nobody wants that pain to be for nothing, and some Germans may even point to the fact that their laws cause citizens to be prosecuted at home, so if we had the similar, Bernie might not have had the chance to settle anything.
John ( other John ) glad to have you commenting so much lately. Missed you. Hope things are going well.
+1
Thanks guys!
I think I worked out some frustrating, persistent, niggles, rather than I’m on a streak. I hope so, anyhow! Maybe there was just a lot simmering away in the old bald bobbly thing, and I’d been distracted. I’m not looking any horse in the mouth, though! cheers! ~ j
I don’t think too many people decide not to go to a race because of the bribery charges. The bigger problem is high ticket prices. As was already mentioned before, you get awesome racing and great sound in many other categories for drastically less money. Additionally, I think the way RTL is doing their coverage (In my view they focus way to much on the German drivers and don’t care enough about the rest), doesn’t help either.
Indeed very weird combination of factors: great success of German pilots, German automotive industry and near-to-zero interest for F1.
Relative of mine is German and he says: Germany first need something like 20 years of success absence, in order to appreciate another Schumacher-like success then.
Bad news for Ferrari.
I think if Vettel will replicate MS’s success at Ferrari, there will be more people buying tickets in Germany.
I just don’t think he wil, for he doesn’t have the same working determination that set MS ahead of the other drivers.
Unlike Alonso, though, I believe Vettel has a title or two within his reach at Ferrari. He has more speed that Alonso, albeit lacking the Spaniard’s consistency, however it’s speed rather than consistency that might make the difference in modern F1, as 2010 and 2012 proved.
In more than 30 years I can’t think of one driver who left Ferrari with his reputation unscathed. Even the man who won them 5 championships got the boot. Given all that I reckon Vettel’s being very brave. Maybe that explains his massive salary (assuming the rumours are true) – some of it might be danger money!
The Brawn led Ferrari was maybe the only time you couldn’t pull off a joke about national stereotypes fluffing it up. I can understand why so many hope he’ll reappear, but I imagine he signed a very hefty non compete agreement, so he’ll be a long while away from any Benz hair, blond and flowing or otherwise. I can’t get over how MB muddled through all their management mêlée this year, if the public prattling is any indicator of organization. If that’s a incorrectly attuned worry of perception, I feel I better get incanting some dances for Honda powered dreams.
Actually, thinking about it, I would go better than a non compete: I’d stagger the payments for what was Brawn GP, over a good many years, to ensure I didn’t have to ever guess what Ross might be cooking up. If Ross B ever finds a way back into F1, I imagine it will be a seriously interesting, and wholly unexpected, way.
I believe RB had his time, he’s getting on a bit now and we see little by little the old guard slipping away. And rightly so, time for some new blood. For goodness sake, look at the old guy who runs the show!
If he’s truly retired, … well, sweet exit, and all I can say is I wish him happy fishing!
But, also consider how Freddie Laker got a second career. Things do happen, if things get interesting…
I suppose if you project forward to 2025 and ask how many European and American races will be left, I think the only certainty would be Monaco.
Going to dodgy middle-East venues and racing in front of 10,000 spectators makes no sense at all, except to the one person who matters.
Oh death, where is thy sting?
Lovely quote from Corinthians
I know this is totally unrelated but it is still a bit “strange”.. as posted by a certain Mr Sylt…”Forbes can reveal the photo below taken in Mr Ecclestone’s chalet where he got married in 2012 to charming Brazilian lawyer Fabiana Flosi. The image shows a very stylized statue with its arm stretched out and it complements his previous photo of the view from the chalet widow which shows an unusual one-eared deer in his garden.” I am lost for words.
I have a suitable word: wanker
That’s no way to talk about Bernie Joe……
I don’t think Joe was referring to Bernie Stephen. Probably the author of the original post, or the pet journalist.
I think you underestimate Joe’s humour!
I think that since they moved form their plush downtown Manhattan offices, to New Jersey, Forbes have started to act like a tabloid, a la The New York Observer, as late, or trying to Murdoch a bit. Any which way, I hadn’t looked at their site for a fair few years, literally then ejected by revolting web design that was unnavigable. On recent review, they should have left it impenetrable. Few sites are so loaded with crap, before you get to them “content”, and I only went there to read a reliably intelligent IT author, whose work seems to have been made mush, when presented by Forbes. Publishing was never easy, but for a while it did have a simpler model: you could, within reason, buy your way into circulation, and that would mean something useful, either to keep a staff growing or to build one, or to assuage brief ups and downs; distribution meant advertisers, meant writers wanted some of that exposure, meant prominence on the display stands. You could lose a fortune at it, but what business is unlike that, financially? Now, it seems very very few publishers have truly let the totality of the problem or opportunity, sink in. I like it think I’m not a complete dunce, especially in computing things, and I took more years than I ever thought, to grasp the gargantuan complexity of pseudo industry that new media created, without adding a jot of value. I cannot distill anything to a elevator pitch, or only components of what I learned, that genuinely need plugging together, the difference as complicated as the energy recovery of the new engines. And that is difficult to sell, when one stop shopping is not quite the freedom that digerati envisioned, when it comes to new electronic media, or, prosaically, when you may not be able to afford to be weak in not small appearing area, but a third party doesn’t play nice all joined up. I’ve a long way to go, before I can prove any pudding I cooked, but meanwhile it makes me think of the headache I had when I set out to get a modern “home theater” television setup. I wish I was twenty again, only that would mean nobody listened to me, or rather no one heard me without interpretation by my senior colleagues. Oh, well…
I chuckled at Hockenhiem’s “that’s news to us” response.
Sadly the way the FIA has played games, for the past twenty years or so, with the lower series, they cannot count on reaching out to the German industry and being welcomed with open arms.
Germany’s ability, and willingness, to support its culture and soft presentation abroad, is substantial, and ought to be naturally available to help even F1’s image.
Consider how the Goethe Institute operates, compared with the anemic British Council, for just one obvious discrepancy in attitudes of showing off culture. Where are the British Council cafés and libraries and classes? There’s a quaint attitude, at the FO, generally, that “someone enterprising” will pick up the slack, and do good for Britain’s image, overseas. Unfortunately, the best you tend to get is Britpop, and that was a highly politically led idea, quite contrary to what is the instinct of those genuinely interested in culture.
My gripe doesn’t directly relate to F1, but my gripe is rather that there is no direct connection between cultural sponsorship, and F1, and I think this is broken in so many ways, fundamentally because of the lack of a French GP. Germany may be shy of promoting F1, because of sensitivities with their neighbors, to not start appearing to be making a grab, especially not with a widely anticipated continuing dominance of the silver cars. British support is too much of the resting on laurels kind, pointing proudly, and justifiably, to our motorsport heritage, but missing the entire point that F1 only truly grew up in between the big wars, and since the last big one, and that without European leave and integration, a great deal of the success it became, might not have been possible, or would have come at a slower pace.
With no other comments moderated as I’m typing this, I’m sure nonetheless that a lot of what I say will be echoed, by others. What can we do? What simple things can be done? What, Joe, do you hear from your German and French friends, associates and colleagues in the media? I was reading today Roy Greenslade, a media commentator often worth the price of a copy of The Guardian, how The Express and Sunday Express have culled without Ruth their sports writing talent, pared to the bone. There’s too many gaps forming, that will take considerable time to fill, and I’d truly appreciate anyone else chiming in, how coverage is presently, in German and France? Does GP+ have many subscribers, there? Even recent news, the Swiss central bank refloating their exchange rate, has impact on the economy enough to affect possible futures in F1. Lots of economic news, predominantly the fact that ZIRP and money printing have given way to real price discovery, and hence “panics” as people find the worth of things, all affect what F1 can do, in the near future. Who can add to the State of The Union of F1?
Hi Joe. What do you think, will WEC be a real threat to the F1 in the future? I am interested to see, how many people are going to watch WEC (Audi, Porsche) to Nürburgring at the August.
No I don’t think it will
There are many people (not me) who complain that a 90minute to 2 hour F1 race is too long so I can’t see 24 hour races becoming popular to the masses.
Whilst they are an amazing technical excersise and probably great to compete in 24 hours is far too long for most people to watch.
The only real races for sportscars that were more than 1000kms or 6 hrs were the Sebring 12 hrs and Daytona & Le Mans 24hrs. The standard races were 1000kms and 1000k’s of Gulf Porsche 917 vs Ferrari 512M was usually pretty entertaining especially as most of the cars had F1 drivers in them!
In the last days of Grp C, Ross Brawn designed a Jag with a Cosworth HB V8 in it, which was not only totally awesome, but possibly the greatest of the GrpC cars during the life of the series.
Re: the “many people” who want F1 races to be even shorter than they already are? You must know all three of them. Send me their phone numbers, I’ll have a chat with them about it…
In the 1970’s and during the Group C period of the 80’s/90’s, WEC was a huge series and in the 1970’s the cars were faster than F1 too, the new WEC cars look very fast too, and when wheel to wheel, they look more exciting than F1 cars, imho, so what with the cost of WEC attendance being lower, with known drivers like Webber in the fold, and probably many more to join him, WEC may end up as the default for attendance by motorsport fans who used to only do F1 ….who knows?
I think it’s more than price. It’s a demographics problem. The early to late 1990s TV audience stopped going to races as they aged (and as Schuey aged and eventually left the scene, part 1). The next generation of Germans is more diverse, and less interested in F1. We can debate the reasons for that, but BCE’s position on social media is not helpful.
The next generation of *every nation on earth* is more diverse, and less interested in F1. We can debate the reasons for that, but BCE’s position on social media is not helpful, *’Not helpful’ is putting it VERY mildly indeed*
“They still flock to DTM and Races at the old Nürburgring but they don’t show up at Grands Prix.”
Wonder how many would turn up for an F1 race at the old ‘Ring with the DTM in support 🙂
Well I know I took my leave but what with the ‘ Ring ‘ losing the race … Hockenheim now saying they really don’t want it and the controversies coming on even hotter , faster and heavier than I at my most cynical would of imagined … I thought I’d check in and post on this question ;
1) The cost vs return . To put it simply the German fans want to see RACING .. not scripted drama and techno weenie dreck . The price of tickets goes constantly up . The quality and reality of the racing goes constantly down . So the Germans … being a little more conservative in their spending regardless of income stay home .. TV’s turned off as well
2) Uncle Bernie has not exactly endeared himself to the German people what with all his financial controversies there etc and the fact that he and the FIA were [ and still are ] obviously prejudiced against Vettel as well as Red Bull [ yes Red Bull is Austrian but the emotional ties between the two countries goes deeper than one might think ]
3) BMW pulling out of F1 .. VW-Audi staying the ____ away … and the Daimler Benz board constantly on the fence whether Should They Stay or Should They Go does nothing to endear the German fans to the sport either
4) Hate to be blunt but the Germans are a lot more discerning when it comes to their entertainment expenditures than say you Brits … us Yanks or especially the Italians , French and Spanish
5) But oops .. Hold on Sloopy …. the Italians , French and Spanish fans are staying away in droves as well … so maybe its not just All About the Germans
So instead of trying to place the blame on Germany …
[ a familiar story when it come to you Brits by the way … re ; ” Hidden History ; The Secret Origins of WWI ” ]
Maybe … just maybe its about damn time we all including yourself good sir start placing the blame firmly where it belongs …
….Firmly on the shoulders of the Sport of F1 … the FIA … Uncle Bernie .. the insular teams like Ferrari calling the shots … and all those running what is becoming less of a sport and more of a scripted spectacle by the minute ..
And what if we all did ? Perhaps a little positive change might come about … seeing as how doing so would hit Bernie/FIA/F1 right where it hurts the most . In their pocketbooks …
Ya think ?
Nahhhh . Lets do this the easy way . Blame it all on Germany . Its always their fault … sarcasm most definitely intended
Planting nails in one stroke, I see, GS! Nice one on the unavoidable logic.
I read somewhere (BBC I think) that Ecclestone was quoted as saying that there were no owners at Nurburgring to do business with. Is it correct that it has just recently got new owners? And, is it true that Ecclestone was in the running to buy it a while ago (around the beginning of his (first) German court case but was knocked back? Is there an element of sour grapes on his part (If he can’t have it then nobody will!)?
The message was simple: wake up Nurburgring…
Hi Joe that would be interesting to see the attendance figures of all races over the last five or ten years ,if you have access to them could you post them in a new thread ? cheers Matt.
Or in GP+
Oh, how I wish I was in charge of Hockenheim right now:
“Gutten Tag Herr Ecclestone, please sit down, wait a second while I turn the table, OK, now, are you sitting comfortably ?
Yes, Mr E., we will be happy to run the GP for you this year, just pay us a modest fee, say €10 mil. ? After all that’s a fraction of what you paid our court, nicht war ?
😉
Regards,
Martin
Formula has been boring for years reaching it climax in 2014 that why. And NO DRS and idiotic tires didn’t fool any real sports fan. So there you have it…
*Formula One
I think you left off the words “in my opinion”…
Mine and most of the germans it seems…
That’s implied by the word “boring” – he’s stating a view, not a fact.
Nah, I think instead those proposing fact, should just provide watertight, preferably mathematically complete, proof, of how their statements are incontrovertible! 😅
Is anybody interested in race fans who actually go to the circuits these days you might as well be a train or aircraft spotter or Newcastle United fan nobody wants you
Circuit owners might be slightly interested but all other parties CVC,FIA,Teams and probably even drivers are not.Keep away behind our security fences pay to watch us on TV
I still enjoy the spectacle from the outside of Maggots at Silverstone during practice,but the rest of it at the circuit has no appeal to me
Bernie doesn’t care either way – he only needs the TV revenue and on track ads etc. The spectators are the back drop and if there aren’t any the directors carefully avoid shots of the empty grandstands. I think it’s unfair to suggest the drivers don’t care, they often voice their dismay at the numbers but it’s out of their control. The teams and the FIA should be more concerned but that’s another debate (see endless previous correspondence on the same subject….)
How true. I’ve repeatedly seen empty seats disguised or covered up. Can’t sell ’em? Then there’s a problem/
But I reckon Bernie once surely cared.
Imagine: nothing he can do now will prove anything to anyone, let alone that he had any genuine change of heart, or really cares any more.
That must truly suck, and in that you have, I think, the reason why he’s jaundiced, fed up, beaten ragged frankly, and totally off the ball, save for energies needed to prop up the cash machine he invented.
Bernie should have taken a lesson from a central banker, of Hjalmar Schacht’s ability, at the least. One cannot simply make a economy work by top down dictat, or fiddling with obscurities. Ultimately, a economy must have its own freedoms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjalmar_Schacht
Bernie does leave a legacy. I think we all, begrudgingly or otherwise, accept what positive things he has done; he brought us the modern sport, good and worse. But, what it must be, to live with no chance to enjoy any of the fruits of that labor in the way anyone a true sportsman might want to feel rewarded. He’s stuck, too, pedaling furiously inside the dungeon captive wheels that makes the perpetual motion machine really turn, and knackered. Sisyphus may have had it, in some ways, easier.
J(oJ), oh dear, have you been into Mum’s cooking sherry? Poor Bernie, nothing he can do?
Of course there’s something he can do. He can say, “Ooops… time for some new arrangements… sorry for taking so long to realize it… it’s a brave new world, and we must all keep up… so, from an old dog who can learn new tricks, here’s what needs to be done for F1, its teams, and its fans…”
No reason he can’t. If he did it, everyone would flock to love him, overly so I’m afraid, and would gladly forget about the many whomptillions he’s siphoned away from the sport… lots of followers looking for a leader… it has always been thus in F1 (and elsewhere)…
Lol!
Erm, yes, 😅
Thoughts to arrive once the sherry soaked cake is baked….
There are still a few havens of good value motorsport left, BTCC, World Rallycross etc. Went to the UK round of the world rallycross at Lydden last May and saw more close, genuine racing in one day than almost a season of F1. £25 to get in and could access pretty much everywhere and even see the drivers.
The difference of attendance might have something to do with the relative importance of the sport in the country.
You just have to go to bbc.co.uk, click on sport, F1 is the second on the left.
If you click on tagesschau.de, click on sport, there is football, wintersports, handball, and you have to click on more sports to find F1, right below DTM.
This might have something to to with the teams having their bases and roots in the UK, and I would not be surprised if many people stayed loyal to their team through the many name changes they have endured. Like a football club, sponsors and players may change, but you still root for the team.
MS was clearly special, with his humble origins and enormous success. That clearly had appeal to blue collar fans, if you like. I do not think Rosberg or Vettel have the same appeal, as others have said before.
Also, Michael drove for Ferrari, the “best” car brand for many people and based in Italy, country which is also very popular in Germany.
It would be interesting to find out how much Mercedes is seen as a German team. Based in England, Austrian-English management, just one German driver with Finnish roots and a privileged upbringing. One could argue that Toyota in Cologne felt more German than that.
Clearly, other factors like ticket prices and the venue play a role too. The demand at the prices is apparently just not there, and many people willing to go decide against it or actually just cannot afford it.
Try to find F1 coverage in the US of A. It doesn’t exist, but Bernie keeps saying how important the US market is. Fail.
True… but we still fill up F1 race venues better than almost everybody… for a while anyway, until F1 teaches us to not bother…
Well said Cabby. F1 rose and fell with MS. Other than GB Germany does not have a “F1 history”. Most of the German F1 fans ARE MS fans. NR and SV are nowhere near. Mercedes is not exactly the car brand that the average blue collar race fans identify themselves with. Niki is more of a (moody yet still the most entertaining of the dull lot) RTL commentator than MB director and Wolf is Austrian, too. RTL is thinking of leaving the sport (viewership declining dramatically). A 4 time WC stating that there is no point in qualifying anyway…. No BMW, AUDI, PORSCHE or VW in sight. Mr E taking the piss of the Bavarian after buying himself out (while Herr Hoeness of FCB is emprisoned) and so on and so forth. Ad to that various “scandals” in and around the Nürburgring with large sums of tax payers money burned, Mr E’S “me no need young folk FB tactics” and you’ll almost inevitably end up with a German “fan” asking himself: WTF.. if the “sport” decides to go racing elsewhere than Germany I would not sign a petition to keep the German races alive.
I guess the majority of german race fans have moved away from elitist open wheel racing to other alternatives with more blue collar appeal. Where else has such a thing happened? Oh yes, the US.
It was John Cooper’s mid-engined Grand Prix car that started my fastenation with F1. I’ve enjoyed this sport for some time and still do. I don’t understand why everybody isn’t a fan..
Do you have any way of seeing what nation your subscribers to Grand Prix+ are from? Are there far fewer Deutschers than other nationalities? Not very scientific but it’s January, 22* below zero, and dark. Your blog is the most natural light I get this time of year. Thank you
I asked, also, to see if Joe would publicly show any figures. Obviously they exist, it’s bread and butter information for any publisher, and easily compiled. But I was a bit silly, what may be readily provided in commercial privacy, maybe is not best thrown about, where it only will fuel the online numpties who blight the internet with so called journalism. I keep forgetting them, not really, but you don’t think of unpleasant types, when in nice company. I’m not certain the data would provide any relevant insight, to this debate, either. But of course it exists.
What is the public face of F1 in Germany? OTA broadcast is on RTL where Niki Lauda is still retained as a commentator. As for Mercedes being the “German” team in F1 – hard to sell when the Mercedes F1 facility is located in the UK when Toyota ran their F1 operation out of Cologne. Add to that the fact that the public faces of Mercedes F1 are two Austrians – Lauda and Wolff. In a country that has come to view all forms of national identification with skepticism (given its extreme manifestation in the last century) and the loss of their “common” hero it would be a stretch to identify, support and spend money on any events surrounding a “German” F1 team.
No big deal about Germany, just build another track in the sands of the Middle East. I think Saudi Arabia would be great. They can name the track Mecclestone.
Living in germany for the past year or so and attending dtm, nurburgring 24hrs and an f1 race at spa, I can tell you the germans love racing but more importantly the partying and drinking leading up to it.
I couldnt believe the week long drinking and shennanigans at the nordschliefe and for a reasonable ticket price for a whole week if you want.
speaking to some of my german colleagues and friends most of them havent followed f1 in years, thr schumacher days were great but once vettel started doing the same everyone started switching off. Plus the costs of the f1 tickets were stupid into comparison of other events at thr nurburgring.
one thing that I noticed about the whole celebration of sport in germany was when they won the world cup. There was a couple of days pf mad celebration
Oops posted too soon. What I was going to finish with was after two days of celebration on the football that was it..carry on as normal.
its the same with the f1 they have conquered it twice in recent years and even though the mighty mercedes are at the top there isnt much need to get excited about it.
The germans love a good show but will only pay for it if theres something new to see and they can feel part of it, where you can at dtm and 24hrs.
Schumacher was divisive, worked his balls off and accused Couthard of trying to kill him. Whether you liked him or not, he drove with his heart and was never boring. He was fabulously aggressive, controversial and inspiring, occasionally weak and vulnerable.
In contrast, Vettel, Hulkenburg and Rosberg are just dull. Mercedes are even more dull. They all know it and Mercedes especially are desperate to change it. In typical German style, their brand is all about the “professional winner” that shows no weakness. The end result is that by not being human, not showing any weakness or emotion…nobody cares about them.
I think your getting Mclaren and Mercedes confused on the dullness scale. But I am inclined to agree with you regarding dullness element detracting people from F1.
Let face it Lewis and Nico are hardly James Hunts of their era. Ok Lewis has a superstar girlfriend and brings a dog to the grand prix. But come on! When I was in my 20’s the last thing that was on my mind was a long term girlfriend and a pet!!
No one can relate to these guys! Ok most people couldnt relate to James Hunt but they certainly wanted to be him! I dont think anyone in their teens or 20’s aspires to be like Lewis Hamilton, or Vettel, they all want to be pop stars or live in Essex!
Fortunately for Lewis, he turned 30 a few days ago.
The truth is that all sports stars have been forced to either get out or get serious over the past forty years. James Hunt was the same era as George Best whereas Hamilton & co. are of the same generation as Cristiano Ronaldo – a generation where talent is all well and good but a sociopathic focus on physical wellbeing is needed to compete at the very top.
Ironically, this evolution has been brought about by the acclaim, glory and money with which Hunt, Best et al. were showered in their heyday. As soon as there was serious glory to be claimed and serious money to be made, the maverick slackers found themselves under pressure from people prepared to work twice as hard to do ten-percent better – Niki Lauda for instance. Then those people were superceded by those who were prepared to work twice as hard again and so on.
Not quite so in F1 Jem, as the top drivers have all been quoted over the last 12 months as saying that the current cars do not need much actual strength to race, just more mental management.
Even recently when MS was dominating, he was so fit that after a race win he was usually the only guy on the podium who wasn’t sweating profusely and looking totally drained.
Last year, the whole grid looked like they’d only done 10 laps at most, and no one looked at all physically impaired by the experience….if it looks easy, it doesn’t pull interest so much, as the viewer/fan starts to think ” I could do that “, so what’s to be interested in??
Also, in the past, drivers were allowed more freedom to talk to the press and then the journos could establish an accord with them, and get interesting observations from them. Roebuck used to get good stuff off Lauda, Gilles, Arnoux, Mario etc, etc, so did other journos. Now the journo is kept at a distance by the team, far more than previously, so we know little or nothing about what the drivers really think about anything, which makes for a boring vacuum!