Let us assume for a minute that Red Bull is going to develop its own F1 engines at Milton Keynes. Why would a drinks company do that? It is clearly not a core business and is a wildly expensive thing to do, particularly if it is just to secure a power unit for an F1 team. It makes no sense. But what if Red Bull has decided that it is going to build some sexy sports cars, designed by Adrian Newey, available to very wealthy people? Ferrari did it years ago, McLaren has been doing it in recent years. Williams does design work on cars for clients, and even Sauber seems to have a quiet consultant engineering business… Although in such matters discretion is assured.
When Red Bull first did a deal with Infiniti, four years ago, the team made it clear that it wanted to be recognised as a serious engineering firm away from the racetracks, and intended to use the Infiniti connection to move into road car development.
“At the moment our focus is on being a Formula 1 constructor,” Christian Horner told Autocar recently, “but as we see more technology cross over with the road car market, it’s something that will organically grow.
“It’s a natural evolution for us to get involved in road car engineering.”
In recent months there has been a lot of talk of Newey designing a road car for Aston Martin, but that seems to have gone rather quiet of late. However, the car industry is changing and the barriers for entry into the business have come down significantly, notably with the recent introduction of Gordon Murray’s iStream manufacturing techniques, which mean that production costs on small-run exotic cars have dropped significantly. If one looks at the recent months one can see TVR using iStream to make a comeback and last week at the Tokyo Motor Show, a Yamaha sportscar popped up, with iStream involved in that programme as well. If one can manufacture cost-effective chassis and you have an ace designer, the only thing that a budding sports car company needs these days is an engine. There is some logic, therefore, in licensing an internal combustion engine from an existing manufacturer and then making it your own. If you go back in history you will find that huge companies such as Opel and Alfa Romeo both began life using Darracq engines and there are many other examples. The key ingredient is money.
Red Bull has plenty of cash and so a bespoke engine is not a daft idea, as there is a sub-contractor (Mecachrome) happy to sell as many units as are required. Today’s F1 engines are complex, but the various recovery units can be built by different suppliers.
Red Bull is already more than a drinks company: it owns sports teams, venues and events. It runs its own media agency, dealing in TV rights and content creation. The business makes money and helps to expand the Red Bull brand. So why not a car? Richard Branson has shown that a brand does not need to relate to only one product. Virgin stands for quirky innovation that redefines the way businesses deal with customers. It is such a powerful brand that entrepreneurs will give Virgin equity in exchange for the right to use the name. Others have tried similar ideas: Vijay Mallya, for example, started an airline because he thought he could make a success of it, while at the same time, using the Kingfisher name to help sell the beer that has the same name.
Marketing such a car would be easy… and, as Ferrari has shown, if you have the muscle, an F1 team can be completely free AND be advertising for your automobiles.
joeblogsf1 
And if even a tech company like Apple thinks it’s a good time to get into the car manufacturing business there must be favourable economic conditions to do it.
At least I suppose we should be thankful that its not Microsoft making a car.
Apple will have an awful lot to learn about the car market. Where is their dealer/servicing network?
If Microsoft made a car – you’d find that one of the wheels is inexplicably larger than the other 3…
and when the upgrade came along, the pedals would be in a different position, the steering wheel would rotate in the opposite direction and every control and dial would be in a different place because this is progress, each and every upgrade…
Except that Google and Apple aren’t really interested in combustion engines at all. The 5 year horizon of the US car market is about electric motors, quick charging solutions, and autonomous driving software….
Lithium and graphene are the future.
The current hybrid powertrains (both in F1 and in WEC) did already help get research into energy storage onto a new level though Ray, and Formula E might give it another push.
That is why it still is interesting to be involved, to be into the loop early on to use that technology on the road sooner
The idea of say Cosworth providing a core combustion engine for tuners to add the electrical power-recovery and storage peripherals/electronics is a great idea. Bernie should be promoting that idea.Plus generous concessions for development – unlimited tokens until they are better than 6th three times.
I just don’t see this. Companies like Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams etc are at their heart car companies. They have a background in engineering and a desire to go racing. Red Bull is basically a sugar water company that sees F1 as a marketing tool. There is no basic love of motorsport in the organisation.
Williams is a racing team… Besides, did I say it was going to happen?
Joe, yes I agree but I still maintain that Williams like the others is when all is said and done a race team. Frank Williams gave a speech once where we said exactly that, “we have no function here at Williams beyond going racing”
Red Bull has no love of motorsport, no petrol in its corporate veins. If Mateschitz thought donkey racing gave them a better return on their marketing budget he would be running several up Blackpool beach before you could blink.
Not true. There was no capital return inherent in his decision to restore the race track or create the aircraft museum. Plus they’ve shown their willingness to virtually create brand new motor-related sports with their air races and scrambler jump events. I’d say engine-related pursuits is core to their endeavours; after all, you don’t see them sponsoring sailing, cycling or running events…
Well Moo, just a few hours back I saw an amazing video of the “most high tech yacht” to go out there, and it was sponsored by who … exactly, REd Bull (you can find it on the companies website – America’s Cup catamaran).
These yachts are accidentily one of the areas where the aero know how of RB Tech might be a huge asset.
Red Bull does sponsor cycling events. Or are you being sarcastic?
Actually they do…
Joe, slightly off topic but I believe the problem with F1 is not the PU’s but the fact the cars aren’t as challenging as they use to be . So I propose in order to restore further challenge to the driving that by 2020 provided it can be done safely that F1 teams and FIA make 6 wheel F1 cars mandatory for all teams; with four small front tyres and two big back ones like a Tyrrell P34 only equipped with 1600cc V6 hybrid turbo PU’s we have now.
This could lead to the next evolution in road car design as well. What do you think of that Joe? I think that would be romantic and exciting for F1.
stff2, have you any evidence that modern F1 cars aren’t as challenging to drive as they used to be? Drivers still crash, and make mistakes in the cockpit.
If anything they need to be fitter and stronger than ever to manage the G-forces of the experience of driving an F1 car for 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon.
F1 cars are beasts. Highly complex and significantly computerised beasts, but twitchy, difficult, ravenous beasts of cars that’ll pitch you into a spin if you look at them wrong. And that’s with the ‘small’ engines that deliver around 800 bhp. (tell me, have you ever driven anything with that kind of power-to-weight ratio?)
They all started out as race teams essentially and two of them produce cars. It is simplistic, pretty insulting and utter tosh to suggest they are just a marketing tool and have no love for motorsport. They support two teams, been with RB active for 11 years and produced Vettel, Riciardo and now Max.
as the writer indicated, they are more than just a drinks company and every company gets into business to make money and market their brand….just like Ferrari/Mclaren and Williams. Companies are not pigeonholed into doing one thing anymore.
right. Bombardier started as a snowmobile company. Now they make airplanes instead.
Think modern day ‘garagiste’ taken to the nth degree….
If I were running a sugar water company, I would wish to diversify into other areas at the earliest opportunity. Good Luck to Red Bull.
Can it be simultaneously true that “to win you need the ICE and the hybrid system working together perfectly” and “Today’s F1 engines are complex, but the various recovery units can be built by different suppliers.”
Second question, do contracts with PU manufacturers usually have non-competition clauses or similar designed to stop one making their own engine while the factory one sits temptingly in the factory nearby?
What is interesting about the technology is that when one digs a little bit more into the arrangements involved, one finds that the manufacturers are following current industry trends and are out-sourcing much of the manufacturing of parts to specialist automotive engineering companies. And because of the expertise required the same companies are being used by the different competing manufacturers, each of which designs what it wants and sub-contracts the work. What this means is that F1 is actually more about designing and managing the interface between the parts, which arrive from the sub-contractors in functional spec. The electrical systems are designed by the manufacturers but a lot of them are manufactured by Magneti-Marelli, although the supply chains after that become what one F1 engineer described as being “like spaghetti”, as a result of the parts within parts that F1 now has. Mercedes and Ferrari may do a little more in-house that the others, but firms such as AVL, the world’s largest independent company developing powertrain systems for internal combustion engines, instrumentation and testing systems, are heavily involved in F1 today.”
AVL, that well known Austrian company….anyone checked to see if there have been any strange cars pounding the Redbullring recently?
If you look at the aircraft industry you see the same thing with outsourcing of manufacturing all over the place. Mind you it is no small thing to pull it off – it was reported that a lot of Boeing’s delays with the 787 Dreamliner were down to difficulty in marshaling all the subs. “Like spaghetti” indeed, and it cost them 3 years and $10B.
Intriguing possibility Joe.
McLaren have shown the wisdom of following Enzo’s business model of selling cars in support of Ferrari’s racing ambitions, albeit McLaren’s model has mutated in response to current business requirements; an independent, profitable stand alone enterprise. Do they pour money into their F1 effort? With a lack of sponsorship I would guess so.
Having said all that I find it difficult to believe there would be a market for a Red Bull branded (even under a different sexier name) street car. Engines to other boutique car builders is a possibility.
RB have poisoned any and all future business possibilities by their hysterical and strident assaults upon Renault, ANYONE considering doing business, on any level, with a Mateschitz led enterprise would be wise to think long and hard before jumping into a union with him.
If this were to happen, could RBR eventually sell/lease the complete PU’s to customer teams, or would part of the deal with Renault be that it’s for their use only?
Didn’t Cosworth actually develop a V6 for the new era but no-one would pay to take it up? Also how much of Illen’s work at Renault remains property of RB?
I guess if one has the money and finds oneself in the position that there is no one willing to supply competative engines and has a look at the world around one, it might make sense to explore this path.
Yes, having the complete package available is a very good basis to build on.
And off course that engine could still be branded VW/Audi/Chevrolet/TVR/Jaguar … if one finds a suitable partner willing to pay for it later.
Joe: “Red Bull is already more than a drinks company: it owns sports teams, venues and events. It runs its own media agency, dealing in TV rights and content creation. The business makes money and helps to expand the Red Bull brand. So why not a car? ”
Dietrich Mateschitz’s hobby is motor sport. He spends a lot of money on racing outside F1, and in those involvements he’s not getting much prize money because it doesn’t exist. Red Bull is involved in other edgy activities such as air racing or “extreme sports”, but nowhere near as much as motor sport. We should assume that Mateschitz is a fan.
The way he runs Red Bull suggests that he believes the company is better at performing some activities than an outsourced agency. It seems to be working for Red Bull. For the last 30 years, he has found employees who have maintained an incredible brand. If he decides to build an engine, perhaps in co-operation with Renault, we should take him seriously.
Dietrich Mateschitz is 71 years old and stinking rich. If he thinks that the soft drinks business is in good hands, we should not be surprised that he spends more time on his hobby.
From the outside Deitrich and his chums look like buffoons over the Renault engine issue. But they’re like the Chinese, they play a long game. Be interesting to see how it all pans out.
A sound hypothesis. The question will be whether anyone at Red Bull has the vision to execute against such a possibility.
It does beg the question why a corporation the size of Red Bull, with its Racing Team HQ only a few miles from Northampton can’t make a significant investment in Cosworth and utilize their expertise instead of building a fresh program from the ground up. They also have a good image too (even if it was from 1980’s Ford collaborations) in the road car market. It seems like the perfect marriage? They were also put on the market by its current owners in 2012 …..
So if red bull buy the rights to this years Renault engine, develop the ancillaries themselves and get infiniti to fund it, in return for their name on the engine cover?
I don’t think Infiniti is sticking around…
Ferrari began as a racing team — Enzo only made cars in order to finance it. So there is precedent for the possible Red Bull approach you posit.
Would love to see Williams try it too. I think they have made cars under engineering contract…the Jaguar prototype that appears in the current Bond film…?
Google is getting into the car business, and their core business is even less of a physical product that Red Bull’s original fuel.
I see no fundamental reason why Red Bull couldn’t follow suit.
If Google ever got into motor racing, I wonder if they would try to do it with driverless cars.
“If Google ever got into motor racing, I wonder if they would try to do it with driverless cars.”
If they did, they might have more character than some of the current drivers are allowed to show.
There’s a world of difference between an F1 engine and a road car engine. If they were ‘swappable’ then McLaren would be using a version of their P1/MP4-12C engine in their race car and not using a Honda.
I have read elsewhere that some convaluted deal has been carried out between RB and Renault, which will enable RB to use their version of the Renault engine next year. I know the French can be odd at times, but they ain’t that daft.
You can use a detuned F1 engine in a road car, but you cannot easily use a road car engine in F1.
When you think about it a bit longer, wouldn’t that prove that Montezemelo was a right, to an extent, when he expressed that a soft drinks company had nothing to do leading in F1.
Now Red Bull themselves would make a similar transition to McLaren, Lotus, and even Ferrari itself – from entering the sport towards actually going to build road cars to make more out of being there!
Going with your assumption there is also the option that Red Bull may make a tender to supply independent teams with engines. Would this be a 1st step to greater ambitions?
I don’t see the logic in that.
Actually if they are confident that they have the best chassis then they would have no problem supplying their engine to anyone else and make the engine side a profit center or at least breakeven?
This would have the additional benefit of shafting the other Engine manufacturers. A bit of a “win-win” scenario for Red Bull in that case.
My thought was that as they develop expertise in interfacing various energy recovery systems with the engine they build the knowledge to transition into a road car capability much like AVL or a boutique supercar manufacturer.
besides your thoughts, running its own engine for one or two years and then selling the rights to whoever is interested (a VAG brand, Toyota, BMW, Hyundai etc etc) is another option.
So the idea would be that for 2016, RBR would buy unbranded power units from Mecachrome, and then for 2017 and beyond start developing the basic engine architecture with their own bits (all still manufactured by Mecachrome) until they have a de facto in-house engine?
(Although, don’t I recall reading somewhere that a major cause of the undriveability and unreliability of the Renault power unit at the beginning of this season was that RBR had gone in and started fiddling with the engine control software themselves? Hopefully they get slightly more skilful before they start developing the power unit all by themselves…)
“Today’s F1 engines are complex” Unlike the sound of current F1 “PUs”, this is music to my ears! Someone of repute calling PUs “engines” for a change is SO refreshing. Perhaps we can return to shifting gears properly next, and get gear levers back… some hope 😦
…to counter possible argument, why are cars still called cars? since they bear little resemblance to what we enjoyed in the pre-IT age of carbs and distributors.
Using their own Renault Ilmor engine would also allow Red Bull to map their engine how they want, ‘within’ the guidelines of course.
It’ll be interesting to see performance difference between Renault and RB Renault Ilmor (or whatever their engine is badged as)
So many questions… are Renault powerless to stop this from happening? I guess they want the money to fund the purchase of Lotus but what if they’re slower than Red Bull?
Are you suggesting Red Bull have a Renault engine with their own ERS system ready for 2016, and this is all a distraction ?
Possibly
Why do people keep going on about cosworth it is just a shell with all the skilled people having gone and concentrating on vans and the nsx supercharged engine. They do not have the people to even look at f1 anymore
Why is everyone going on about cosworth doing an engine the place is just an empty she’ll with the skilled machinists having moved on years ago. The aerospace side is finished and they are reliant on the victory line and the Honda nsx deal not motor racing.
And they can test their MGU-H/K units with both Ferrari and Renault Power in 2016…
The only logical reason to do this is ego. But then, that would be in keeping with the rest of the exercise as a whole.
It’s less of a jarring thought if you consider a possible car as being branded “Red Bull Racing” or even just RBR, rather than “Red Bull”.
And as Ferrari demonstrated with their hmm-sounds-familiiar FXX mule, there’s plenty of fringe benefits to having a road car programme outside F1.
I like it. It would even raise RB in my esteem, from whiny-caffeine-salesmen to pseudo-manufacturer.
If RBR goes this route (seems logical) then will STR still go for the Ferrari option in 2016? And would Ferrari take the risk handing over /sharing knowledge in that case to a competitor engine builder?
Yes
If this could happen, could it happen in time for 2016? It seems they would still need a short-term partnership. Could they patch things up enough with Renault to survive the 2016 season in anticipation of a 2017 debut?
The Red Bulls are competitive enough. There is no reason that changing the name on the engine would lose any speed…
and if RBR enters as a Manufacturer suddenly the other Manufacturers would either pull out or double their budget because the last thing they want is to be seen getting beaten by Fizzy Drinks Company !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Something you may wish to look at Joe is Audi’s 1:2 scale model of their 1936 Auto Union Typ C grand prix car – made with a printer – it’s on the BBC web site. Possible solution then? Impressive model!
That is another fine example of the barriers to producing a car come down Stephen.
Any chance Red Bull is going to try to start their own series? They have probably the biggest cross section of motorsport involvement in the world. While it’s unlikely, they likely employ more motorsport marketing staff than the whole of F1.
No chance at all
Joe – this is being reported as definitely happening on TheJudge13. My question to you is do you know anything about ‘the Judge’ and whether or not they are a trustworthy source, or just another bottom-feeder?
The judge13 is not in the paddock at races. I had some exchanges with him at some point and he thinks that it is perfectly acceptable to be an f1 reporter by having a couple of sources within teams (mainly Red Bull). I don’t agree with him.
So his assertion about RBR is wrong then ? Mark Hughes seemed to think the assertion was correct. However I must concur with you is it does not make you seem like a credible reporter in F1 or anything infect if only rely on few sources. I have just done a journalism course at University in Derby and they said good practice was to build up a strong contact book with lots of names and different methods of contact written in it.
so a renault designed ICE manufactured by mechachrome with ilmor modified top end and specialist designed power recover units …..what would you call it ?
here’s an idea ….RED BULL
Surely you mean a ‘RED BITSA’ ?
With my crystal ball out…
Red Bull develop their own engine and ers. The ICE is based on Renault version they have the IP for.
Red Bull improve both over next 2 years
Red Bull sell to manufacturer who not only gets a full working top class team but also doesn’t have to start from scratch with their engine and go through the pain of Honda
Seems to logical to me…
With my crystal ball out…
Dietrich Mateschitz can afford to run his F1 team more strangely than I possibly imagined two years ago.
Absolutely! He does generate a lot of press and comment about Red Bull though – pretty good marketing ploy if you’re Dietrich…
Am I the only one conerned by the slogan “Red Bull car – it gives you wings”? 😉
Perhaps your subconcious is reminding you of Mark Webbers Mecedes at Le Mans in 1999 …
Joe
Could it be that the reluctance of the various maufacturers to supply PUs to Red Bull for F1 is also in part due to the fact that they could end up being competitors in their road car market and not just on the track?