Red Bull Racing has announced that it will have Aston Martin as its title partner, beginning in 2018. The team will be known as Aston Martin Red Bull Racing and the car will feature prominent Aston Martin branding. The two parties have been working together since they launched an innovation partnership 18 months ago, and the team has carried the Aston Martin wings for the last two seasons. At the same time they have worked together to create the Adrian Newey-designed Aston Martin Valkyrie hypercar. In reality, the relationships go back far beyond that as Aston Martin’s Andy Palmer and Simon Sproule were working together with Red Bull when they were at Nissan and were responsible for Red Bull’s Infiniti sponsorship deal, which began back in 2013. The relationship is obviously about branding, but at the same time it is also about technology and there is to be a new Advanced Performance Centre in Milton Keynes, which will house 110 Aston Martin design and engineering staff who will be working with Red Bull Advanced Technologies to create successors to the Valkyrie.
“Title partnership is the next logical step for our Innovation Partnership with Red Bull Racing,” Palmer says. “We are enjoying the global brand awareness that a revitalised Formula 1 provides. The power unit discussions (in Formula 1) are of interest to us, but only if the circumstances are right. We are not about to enter an engine war with no restrictions in cost or dynamometer hours, but we believe that if the FIA can create the right environment we would be interested in getting involved.”
If the regulations are right, it is expected that the team, Cosworth and McLaren will work together to create an engine for 2021. What happens in 2019 and 2020 remains to be seen as it is hard to imagine that the team will be able to use Honda engines with a car covered with Aston Martin logos. The current deal with Renault – hidden beneath TAG-Heuer branding – looks like it will be terminated at the end of 2018, which leaves a two-year gap that must be filled. How this will be achieved is difficult to know but if decisions about the rules are made rapidly, and funding can be found, Cosworth might be able to have something ready for 2019, having built a 3-litre direct injection V6 twin-turbo LMP1 engine (the VRX30A) for Nissan in 11 months from concept to dyno back in 2014. This is now being used in WEC by the ByKolles team.
joeblogsf1 
Or RBR can just say thanks for the Honda engine we are calling it a TAG-Aston Martin! Torro Roso have the Honda engine! What in the rules says you have to use the OEM name? However the rules do say if RBR don’t have an engine, Honda will have to supply one! Who says Torro Roso wont be a Honda by then anyway?
It’s not so much about the rules preventing anyone from rebadging an engine (in the rules it will always stay a Renault/Honda/Ferrari/Mercedes of a certain build).
It’s more about the engine supplier not playing along. As in, if Honda is going to power Red Bull (and let’s assume for a moment that the engine will be at least solid by then, maybe even pretty good) to podiums, points and the odd win, they will certainly want the PR for that.
Something they are not going to get if the engine is branded as Aston Martin (or TAG or whatever). So then, the question is, what is in it for Honda. I doubt money will be enough of a motivator, because they have a LOT of loss of face to make up for after the last years in F1, so they will want success on track to boost that.
The addition of McLaren and Cosworth into this equation is interesting.
I wonder if Ricardo will become involved at all or will they just stick to road car engines for McLaren.
Intereting that AMG / Merc are not mentioned, given the tie up between Aston and AMG. Merc Aston F1 engines for Red Bull but not Williams would seem possiible but perhaps Aston wants to make its own engines in the future.
As TVR are looking for a home, there is a huge shed in Wales and some synergy between Corsworth, Aston and TVR. Perhaps stretching it too far.
Aston Martin/Red Bull/mclaren/Illmor and or Cosworth.
No one of them individually have the resources/finances to produce not even a much simpler formula 1 engine, let alone a complicated hybrid.
They are ganging-up in the hope that at least the present ERS-H will be dropped by F1 and so they hope to create something akin to a DFV and then individually stick plastic stickers on the valve covers.
But whatever the new engine will be the manufacturers will have at least a 8/10 years combustion experience advantage. And that is besides the fact that up to now the present manufacturers and the FIA itself are still insisting that the ERS-H stays.
There’s a great synergy between TVR and Honda’s F1 project.. well partially anyway, TVRs were fast, but other than that loads of synergy.
What a shame for the Partnership that Kimi has a Ferrari contract and ownership of car 007!
Isn’t the Aston Martin road cars using AMG engines because they don’t develop their own ones? So they would bring only money on the table I guess.
Yes and no. They also have a cosworth v12
And a Jaguar derived V8 as well.
Isn’t that the one that they’re replacing with the AMG?
I wonder if Aston Martin’s road car engine partnership could come into play here, and Red Bull use an Aston Martin-badged Mercedes power unit in 2019 – 2020..? Could we see another Williams-Renault, or Williams-Honda (especially if the latter get their act in gear in 2018)?
The VRX30A was in the top 3 LMP engines that year in thermal efficiency, did not get an opportunity to show its pace due to car problems.
In Top3 because only 3 different engines were used by Porsche, Toyota & Kolles ?!! 😉
Saying that the VRX30A was in the top 3 is not really telling us that much when the LMP1-H class only had four manufacturers.
Is this the start of the Red Bull “fade out” from Red Bull Racing or are both parties just trying to get a bit more out of their current relationship?
I remember it being reported that Cosworth had the design of a hybrid V6 done when the current engines first came out and was shopping it around to companies to brand it/pay for it. I am sure that design would not be competitive at this point but they probably know where other companies found improvements. They have been keeping up with the technology and should be able to get something out in a short period. I certainly hope they will, though it might not be necessary…
Becausue Honda should not be discounted. They came out with a complete redesign of the engine this year, which is why they had the same 2015 problems all over again (reliability and power issues). Next year I believe there will be a bit improvement and in 2019 it will be the 3rd year of that engine design and they should be able to get the best from it. I would not be surprised if the 2019 Honda engine was almost as good as Mercedes/Ferrari and as good or better than Renault. In fact, that is what I expect, as Honda might be slow and driven by Japanese corporate culture which is very slow for F1 standards – but they have a lot of bright people there and they will get it right eventually.
On a barely related note, are there any detailed technical explanations of the differences between the 2015/2016 Honda engine and the 2017+ design? (Apologies for taking this off on a tangent…)
I don’t really get the ‘they’re Honda, they’ll eventually get it right’ argument. They’d have done it by now if they could, or at least have shown some minor signs of competitiveness. It’s a bit silly to do things in the same way all along and expect different results, and that’s what they’ve been doing for a very long time. Nothing indicates any change in their approach (and if there’s anything, I’d love to read about it). I bet they had many bright people in both Toyota and Honda F1 teams, and yet they never succeed.
Well they’re not doing things the same way all along, the 2017 engine is a complete redesign. They started again from scratch this year – different component allocation, much lower center of gravity – an engine with a lot of potential. But there was also a lot of risk – a complete new design always brings problems, and they had much more than they expected. But, the design itself is not flawed like the 2015 design was. It just wasn’t executed well. I believe they will make it work, though.
The biggest question for sticking with Honda might be the 2021 redesign. With their history of not getting things right the first year or two, a team like Red Bull might not take that risk and would be wise to see if there are better alternatives for the new engine formula.
I was referring to ways things are being done at Honda, not to specific design ideas. I know the 2017 engine is a complete redesign.
If Cosworth were to supply engines to Aston Martin Red Bull in 2019, then they would have to notify FIA by 1 January 2018 – a change just formally introduced into sporting regs.
Aston Martin-Red Bull-TAG Heuer for 2018. The car company doesn’t make their engines, but the watch maker does. Nuts!!!
Hi Joe,
with all this speculation on who will do what with engines, I would imagine there is at least a back room consensus or understanding of the direction the new engine formula will be in 2021?
Anything you have heard regarding the new power unit direction?
Thanks
Who says it’s speculation?
I did say in a question on an earlier earlier story on this blog that it was speculation. But I was obviously wrong and it appears the Aston Martin Red Bull was something that was well known in informed F1 circles and awaiting an announcement.
I shouldn’t have doubted your sources, Mr Saward. My apologies.
There’s no money flowing from the Gaydon direction in this deal. Some clever accounting paves the way for an orderly retreat and handing over the baton to the Spice Boy. As to the engine situation, if McLaren haven’t tied Cosworth up to an exclusive, they’ve made a serious error. Or has Ross already done a deal to secure a supplier for a standard spec PU whilst allowing scope for development limited in certain areas? That would be eminently sensible, wouldn’t it?….
Yes there is. It’s commissions on the road cars. Big numbers…
Since they make tiny numbers of cars and barely make a profit on them in spite of the sticker prices involved, I don’t understand how this makes any more sense than say Danny Bahar’s plans for Lotus?
how many thousands of road cars will they produce?
If you build 175 cars at $2.3 million. That’s more than $400 million in revenues, minus costs… you’re looking at tens of millions.
but they’re making 15 of the Newey designed car.
That’s not what they announced. They said 150 plus 25 track cars
That commission payment process was going to happen regardless of the title sponsorship. And given the way the HyperCar market is moving, it could be tens rather than hundreds. The One-77 took a long while to sell out and that was at a time when the Far East was looking to splash cash. This is the first step in Didi’s grand exit plan. But, then we all knew that, right? And we’d be fools to rule out that VAG acquisition either, just because Aston’s name is on the car.
The Valkyrie is sold out. 175 x $2.3 million = $402.5 million. Minus costs. I’d guess its about $60 mill in commissions. Decent F1 sponsorship these days. Good value for all concerned… next road car in pipeline already, I’m sure.
Just curious…sold out. Have they been built yet, all 175?
No but they have been sold
But RB contributed serious engineering input to the Valkyrie, which is an awesome machine with very little in common with anything else AM make and which sells at a price near on an order of magnitude higher. Not sure how you get from that to another $60m in addition, but as a recurring annual cost instead of a one-off, as pure marketing spend.
The fact that the deal seems to be modelled on one that the same guys signed on behalf of Infiniti, which has slightly deeper pockets and is slightly better resourced does not reassure me. Dany Bahar had apparently been successful at Ferrari.
One-77 CAN’T BE compared to the Valkyrie. Not even to the Vulcan.
Edgar, as far as the 2021 engine situation goes, the idea is not to have a McLaren branded Cosworth engine, but to really DEVELOP an engine together, pooling the technology and know how of all companies involved in to make an engine that then all of them can further develop and use as their own engine.
So McLaren would own it’s engine, and Aston Martin would own it’s engine and Cosworth would own it’s engine. All would be based on the same shared IP. And they could then also build their own road going cars (and probably sportscar racing versions) like that Mercedes “P one”, a supercar with a real F1 engine powering it
I must say that I get a kick out of Red Bull tying in with Aston Martin. Since 2013 Aston Martin has been tied to Mercedes-Benz, who own a 5% share of the company and also supply Aston Martin with AMG engines/transmissions for their production cars. Dieter Manneschitz doesn’t hate Mercedes, he loathes them. This apparently goes back well before MB turned Red Bull down for engines, after the Three Stooges, Manneschitz, Marko, and Horner lambasted Renault all season long in 2015. I can’t help but think that the 5% non voting ownership is an irritating pebble in Manneschitz’s shoe. What kind of Karma will 2019 bring to Red Bull engine wise? Surely an LMP1 engine would make the Honda look like a World Champion.
His name is Mateschitz.
I’m interested in the idea of Horner taking a majority stake in Aston Martin, as part of a future deal for Red Bull to ease out once the boss man has had his fill, all tied in with continued RB branding rights. Any further comment on this, Joe? Makes sense to me. Horner is ambitious and AM need an injection of something to infuse the hyper-car hype into the road car division. This recent generation has had a luke warm reception so far from what I’m seeing in my customers garages.
McLaren absolutely have to take control of their own destiny with their own engine, which will undoubtedly end up in their Valkyrie equivalent – the development timelines leading up to ‘21 line up perfectly for some LaFerrari-esqe ‘mule’ action. A McLaren / Cosworth / Ricardo partnership seems about right with the expertise between them.
I can’t see any reason for RB or AM to get involved in PUs after what has happened to Honda and with Renault still struggling – An AM team can just go to their friends at AMG. Mateschitz isn’t going to fork out and I don’t believe AM have the budget, capped or otherwise. I’m putting their comments down to cleverly worded marketing for now… hingeing on cost regulations which are all wishful thinking until the big boys get on board, after they accept their share of the cake dwindling… They are attending the meetings, after all.
I’d love to know what’s happening with Porsche and how the Alfa Romeo situation is looking when it comes to rescueing a parked Sauber. Hopefully Honda fully commit and buy Toro Rosso, I’m guessing they are waiting to see if they can redeem themselves on the engine front first?
Where does all this leave Williams? I’d love to see them bounce back, but How? I too can see their engine supply going to an AM team for 2019. Take a Honda for a couple of years and hope the McLaren collaboration can pull something off? Join the collaboration?
2021 is shaping up to be a real relaunch for the sport if all these ducks can be lined up!
Thanks for the great reporting Joe, as usual.
Proverbial house of cards comes to mind where AM are concerned for some reason….
off topic. but are you still doing your audiences with Joe? I happen to be in Austin during the gp so can’t miss out on the opportunity to see the race and wondered if you were doing an audience thing leading up to that.
Yes I will be
great. thanks
This all could see TAG take a hike from RedBull and open the door to a renewed McLaren – TAG/Porsche come 2021.
I would imagine that this reunion tour would be a lot more successful that McLaren’s trip with Honda.
TAG is not TAG
TAG Heuer is not Techniques d’Avant Garde the latter was the one associated with the Porsche engines used by McLaren n the 80’s
It was, but it was sold to LVMH
Easily missed, TVR has been re-incarnated again this time in the south. I always felt that being opposite the council tip in Blackpool was not entirely a good omen.
Has anyone considered that Aston Martin Have no money at all. they have gone bust 5 times int he past. Now suddenly they are going to produce their own engines. As you say its all about the branding. they will be rebranding another suppliers engines not building their own from scratch. Red bull is cool Aston is cool. Thats what its about…
Not if you use industry logic. If you need a new engine these days, you find a partner. Do the r&d, build prototypes and then go separate ways. So, Cosworth wants an eponymous engine, Horner wants an engine (after he and AN do an MBO), Aston wants an eponymous engine, McLaren wants an eponymous engine, UK govt will kick in some grants. Engine r&d costs divided by five, all go separate ways – everyone happy.
You wont get the reference but you sounded just like Rorschach from Watchmen.
I do get the reference. And I have to squint a bit, but I just about see where you’re coming from.
I’d be intrigued if the government do chuck any grant money their way – has there been any precedent, out of interest (for Formula 1)? The only talk relating to government money and F1 I’m aware of was the hope for some for the British Grand Prix and Silverstone, and that obviously never happened. Is there something else I’ve missed?
Yes, you have missed government grants for McLaren, Williams and others for hybrid systems and battery development etc (for road cars). Helps job creation etc
Given the Italian state’s finances, I’m rather positive that Ferrari didn’t get any grant for developing hybrids… That’s unfair .. .. luckily they get a better profit share thanks to Bernie… (Flamer mod off..)
‘Innovate UK’ with matched funding?
One the ‘cool’ note and appealinf to the younger generation. There is a big movement in the snowboarding world , where redbull spend another fortune on advertisin, to try and rebuff redbulls cool image. I think its call JUST WATER or something similar. Basically its about telling kids you done need excess cafine to be cool. I wonder if deitric needs to find some new sporting avenues to promote his wares?
Alwya seemed a weird match up. Would have thought that Williams with their Martini and Mercedes connections let alone being the quintessential British team would be a far better fit for Aston Martin.
Not sure I agree. I still associate Williams with the Garagistes and the “engineering” of racing. Old school British manufacturing. For me Red Bull shouts new money and modern day entrepreneurship and Apps. The old Aston buyers are seriously ageing, the “new money” is where its at, especially for a global brand.
Just my two penneth, as the driver of a 24year old imported 4*4 MPV 😉
Should Cosworth produce a working and reliable engine by 2019, I can see a lot of jobs going at Honda. I can’t see it happening. Cosworth failed with their V8 the last time they entered F1 and their Nissen WEC has suffered with poor reliability, from what I’ve read.
Going way off course here Joe but after enjoying your latest pod-cast, can’t help but think your honesty may be getting dangerously short of leaving you with hospitality places to enjoy in the paddock…..
Do I care?
Joe, is this VRX30A engine built by Cosworth for Nissan in 2014 the one that powered the latter’s ill-fated GTR-LM front engined LMP1 project? I was really sad to see that project die. It was such a radical concept – front engine, front wheel drive with wider front tyres and narrower rears. It looked awesome too, a welcome break from the more or less generic designs of the Audi, Porsche and Toyota LMP1 designs of the time.
But radical projects, such as the Tyrrell P34, don’t seem to have much life. The P34 at least had a win and a pole position, but the GTR-LM was killed much too early. A single poor Le Mans 24 Hours outing just isn’t enough to decide to kill a project. Somehow I feel the villains are none other than the people within the project.
Yes
Your second-to-last sentence reminds me of something Aston Martin for some strange reason….
With all the pieces falling into place, I guess this leaves us with Williams Porsche in 2021?
I was rather hoping they might strap a JCB Jaguar-Land Rover in the back given the links / sponsorships between the firm’s.
I think Force ????? will then keep the customer Mercedes deal (unless I’ve not thought through the Pink car and Porsche link as a possibility?)
So the factory teams will be:-
Ferrari Ferrari
AMG Mercedes
McLaren McLaren
Aston Martin Aston Martin
Renault Renault
Honda Honda (they’ll buy STR)
Factory supported team
Williams Porsche
and then in the customer teams
Sauber Alfa Romeo
Force One Mercedes
Haas Ferrari (unless the Blue Oval comes calling)
This leaves plenty of engine options for some additional teams or junior squads
You read it here first…
Aston Martin Red Bull Racing TAG Heuer
It doesn’t trip off the tongue so much as stagger off, hit its head on your teeth and plummet to the floor.
Reading all this just makes me wonder why Honda is not buying (part of) Aston Martin. In the past VW and Fiat made similar moves acquiring top end brands.
I don’t think Red Bull has any other option than Renault or Honda in 2019. I don’t see any other manufacturer come in for just two years of the current engine regulations before the new regulations kick in.
May be they will race with Renault or Honda engines rebadged as Aston Martin.
And currently it doesn’t look like Cosworth will enter in 2021 since the current manufacturers don’t want to get rid of the MGU-H, which is the most expensive part of the engine.
I was under the impression TAG branding would disappear from the car? Williams Porsche won’t happen unless the latter is content to act simply as engine supplier and I don’t see that fitting well with their ambitions…
They do
i.e. I was correct about the termination of the TAG branding?….or do you think that Porsche are happy about just being an engine supplier? Last time they were handsomely paid for their engineering, let’s not forget!
I think they will start as a supplier and then acquire the team
The team is quoted on the Frankfurt exchange and has just acquired Lowe by giving him a stake. With Frank’s shareholding eventually passing to Jonathan, Claire and Jaime, the task of acquiring the team, not to mention the desire of those shareholders mentioned above to continue the ‘family’ might well prove such a barrier to anyone that they would look to acquire one of the other teams. I’m not so sure the lure of WAE is as great to the automakers as the market would have us all believe. Time will tell, I guess.
It will
That’s sad. Opens up the whole ‘what if they’d agreed to sell to BMW ‘ question. Maybe they’d still be a front rank team.
WAE have a number of nice automotive and motorsport contracts. Don’t forget the battery side of the business, Though they lost the Formula E contract they still have a number of current contracts with big players.
If all this (or most of it) is dependent on the MGU-H disappearing as from 2021, there must be a major snag, as it’s surely inconceivable that MGU-H will disappear. With hybrid taking over the industry, and with electric power an ever-increasing element within the mix, none of the manufacturers would stand for a step backwards that made F1 completely irrelevant and anachronistic, nor would the FIA even try to force them to.
A much more likely development it seems to me would be the retention of MGU-H, but as a standardised system, made by one of the manufacturers and supplied to all the other engine-builders, including Cosworth (howsoever branded), Porsche or whoever else. This might mitigate the cost sufficiently that it left an independent engine builder, responsible only for the combustion unit, a reasonable chance of being competitive.
I don’t think I’ve seen this suggested anywhere though, not even here, so I wonder whether it is perhaps not feasible, either for technical or political reasons?