It is a shame that the name Dramarama was taken in the 1980s by a New Jersey power pop band. The word would be perfect from the mess in which Red Bull currently finds itself. It terminated its engine contracts with Renault under the impression (which now seems a tad flawed) that it would be able to get whatever engines it wanted to have. Some might call this arrogance, others might paraphrase Oscar Wilde’s celebrated remark about parents and say that to lose one engine supply may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness. Whatever the detail, Red Bull has two teams and, right now, no engines for 2016. Oddly, beyond the Red Bull garage there is no wailing nor gnashing of teeth. Most people seem to think that Red Bull has got what it deserved and has been “hoist with their own petard”. This splendid English expression relates to a hand-held 16th Century bomb called a petard, which if handled wrongly would result in the thrower being hoisted into the air…
There is an offer on the table, of course, but Red Bull is not happy with it and has been making an awful lot of fuss in its efforts to get a better option. However, banging drums and bashing cymbals like a colliery band is not likely to change the offer. One might say that Ferrari is being positively public-spirited in offering Red Bull’s its engines, but Red Bull seems to think that it should be treated differently to other teams. The endless grumbling and threatening to leave the sport is not awfully convincing. Bernie Ecclestone is no fool and so when he agreed to pay Red Bull horse-choking wedges of wonga for the period 2010 to 2020, there was a clause included in the deal that meant that if Red Bull wanted to leave before the end of the contract, it would be necessary for the company to pay a substantial penalty. Most big companies are not overly impressed by penalty clauses, but it seems that Mr E – ever ambitious when it comes to money – insisted on an eye-watering penalty clause: $1 billion, reducing by $100 million per year over the term of the contract. Thus, if Red Bull is to walk out of F1 in 2015, the penalty incurred would be five times $100 million.
Walking away is an option, but paying $500 million to walk away makes not sense at all. You might as well stay in there and spend the same money getting publicity for your brand, even if the cars are not winning every race, as they used to do. The best course of action, therefore, is probably for Red Bull to take whatever engines it can get and then show that they are a team that is worth more than the average F1 operation.
McLaren faced a similar situation back in 1993 when Honda decided to leave the sport. McLaren signed up as a Ford Cosworth customer and walked all over the works Ford team. The result of that was that first Peugeot and then Mercedes-Benz came knocking on the door when they were looking for an F1 team to support…
joeblogsf1 
AMS are now reporting that Ferrari have withdrawn even the offer of 2015 engines. Any truth in that or is it just Ferrari proving they’re serious about their take it or leave it offer?
I believe this is true. So the only answer is Renault…
I really hope Renault Sport offer them a 2015 engine supply. I would laugh so hard I may end up in hospital.
Seconded!
Oooh you are naughty !
>>I really hope Renault Sport offer them a 2015 engine supply. I would laugh so hard I may end up in hospital.<<
Renault unveiled the Eolab concept at the Geneva auto show in March. The Eolab is powered by a plug-in hybrid powertrain that has a 75-hp 1.0-liter three-cylinder gasoline engine and a 6.7 kWh battery. It has a 60km range under electric power only.
Mr. Horner could you plug that in your red bull and smoke it please? About all they deserve, ungrateful team that they are.
+1 👍🏼
Or Honda offer them 2015 engines. Then we would all be in hospital….
It needn’t be that hilarious. For Red Bull, Honda engine is better than no engine and walking away from the sport paying $500 million. Honda will not be doing it, but if it did it would help develop its engine further and finally solve the question of which chassis is more aerodynamically superior – the McLaren or the Red Bull. Yes, the risk of running at the back is there, but we can assume that Honda would make some improvement in the off season.
All the engine development can happen only in the coming off season though.
LOL
Ditto ! Horner and Mateschitz’s smug smiles would be well and truly wiped off. I feel sorry for Danny Ric and Daniil being caught up in all this though 😦
I have wondered whether RBR might be a better target for Renault to buy than Lotus if it was available
Renault should tell red bull , kiss my arse
I’ve read that only the offer to RBR has been withdrawn and that for STR it’s still on the table. Do you think there’s a chance the two teams might have two different engine supplies in 2016 ?
Yes. I think STR will get Ferraris and RBR will have to use Renaults
Well, that’s even better! When RBR first began whining about Renault engines, STR had no trouble beating them with the same power units and without the whining… now we’ll get to see how they do when STR has better engines than RBR does.
I hope Renault will be able to charge higher rent than the cancelled RBR contract called for.
Joe, do you know if Horner & Co. prefer their crow broiled or fried?
Or Honda (I know Honda have said no so far) or maybe even Cosworth. Either are about the level RBR deserve now.
What happened to Red Bull building their own engines? A company that size could pay anyone to do it. Not sure why they want to be reliant on a third party.
They may well be doing just that with mario illen (spelling?) on board or with cosworth but even wirh the resources of red bull they woul need a year of bench development before deployment so doing pone for next season would not be a good idea.
While they could take their not-insubstantial cheque book to a third party in a similar fashion to McLaren and Porsche in the 1980s it wouldn’t solve the immediate problem of what to put in the back of the car in 2016. The rumour that a Mr C Horner is scouring eBay for a Toyota Prius with rear-end damage is made entirely of Lie.
That’s probably what Honda thought! Didn’t turn out quite as expected, at least so far…
Renault. And that, in one way, closed to the door to another movement. But on the other hand, the fact that a 100% Renault car would only be truly competitive in two years (at least) made the author of the aforementioned movement to stay where he is and that got RB closer to Renault again…
If not arrogance Joe, how else can this be perceived? And to now threaten to walk out on F1 if they don’t get what they want is a classic case of Veruca in Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory.
Let them grind out some seasons the way every other team has had to at some stage of F1 history. F1 is still here because those other teams on the grid went through that pain but never gave up.
And don’t forget McLaren shaking hands on an engine deal ith Lamborghini and then reneging …
Hi Joe, you write that Red Bull’s contract termination seems a tad flawed, but perhaps this was part of their strategy from the very beginning. By not having someone else lined up before the contract was terminated, they can now threaten F1 with the withdrawal of two teams and bully it into providing it with an engine that is acceptable to them (winning 2016 spec).
I think you may have missed the point about the $500 million penalty.
Is a $500m penalty for leaving F1 early still a $500m penalty if they have no engine and genuinely cannot race?
I wouldn’t be too surprised if this is all an orchastrated reason (both sporting and legal) for leaving.
Josh, you are talking about force majeure, but I don’t think that can be applied here. Red Bull had a deal, a voluntarily ended it. They can’t then say they have to leave F1 for reasons outside of their control.
But what if Renault wish to remain divorced??
They want money from Mr E. He will want a quid pro quo… (although it is usually more than a quid)
Joe – if this did happen, where would the $500M go? Would it end up in Bernies and/or CVCs pockets? Quite a nice little retirement gift for CVC if they are truly getting out of the sport …
Any chance of RBR somehow claiming breach of contract in order not to pay?
That contract has clauses that RBR’s lawyers can use to argue “force majeure” and or many other reasons why they should not pay. Tangled up in civil courts for years, never to be paid. That said, your argument that RBR would be better off racing for another few years sounds right.
I don’t see that. They have accepted the extra money from FOM. It is clear that they would be breaking the contract.
Ha, you are confusing “truth and beauty” with the ability of lawyers to obfuscate and drag out a civil dispute for years.
But this is all academic. RBR and Torro Rosso will be on the grid in 2016, one way or another. On that we agree.
Maybe you are forgetting that this is a contract Bernie made Gary.
What happens to that clause if no one will sell them an engine?
It’s not there
They had an engine contract.
They elected to tear it up.
They regretted that (a bit).
~
They’ll need a very good lawyer to get a viable claim for ‘force majeure because we’ve got no engine’ out of that. Bernie’s very good lawyer will suggest that they created the situation deliberately or recklessly. I’d prefer to be on that end of the argument.
Self induced “forcemajeure” is Contradictio on adjecto 😀
*in adjecto
Teflon Bernie will find them an engine even if he has to root around in the backyard shed to do it.
A nice noisy naturally aspirated V10 that sucks in almost as much air as Jean Todt’s ample snout to boot! Two birds one stone.
More likely a BMW 4 cylinder turbo with a used-beer-rusted block*, if Bernie got to keep any.
*I know the stories of BMW’s beer usage aren’t true, before anyone points that out.
However, banging drums and bashing cymbals like a colliery band. What have Brass Bands done to you for you to use them in this derogatory fashion? There are less prima dona’s in all brass bands than one F1 team.
It really does astound me how arrogant they have been when it comes to how they’ve handled the engine saga. Walking around with a begging bowl but still trying to state terms dumbfounds me.
They say they want to be competitive, but if that was the case they’d have taken the 2015 Ferrari engines, after all reliability wise and power wise it’s a big jump from where they were. Sure they might not be able to fight right at the front but they’d still be in the hunt until they found an engine builder patient enough to work with them.
Would they be so charitable if Ferrari said, can you give us all your aero secrets?
The latest rumour from T Greuner seems to be that Ferrari will supply Toro Rosso but not Red Bull taking them up to 4 teams supplied. Mercedes have already agreed deals to supply 4 teams next year and always said that’s the maximum they’d supply. There’s no way Ron would let a Honda supply to RB happen so could it be that Red Bull have to go back to Renault with their tale between their legs?
When I say tail between their legs, I mean they’ll hit Renault with lawyers saying they still have an engine supply contract for next year because they hadn’t quite fully torn it up and Renault need to stop being so crap and find 200hp by the start of next season.
The continental crybabies need to take a lesson in humility and class from Williams, whinging newcomers.
Honda?:-)
That’s terribly, terribly, harsh on colliery bands, Joe
Article of the year so far! And Joe sets a very high bar. “…under the impression (which now seems a tad flawed) that it would be able to get whatever engines it wanted to have.”
Oh how I love irony.
Considering a total budget of more then 600 million euro per year, it is definitely interesting to pay 500 mio to be allowed to invest the other 3.000 mio in something more interesting from a marketing point of view.
I think that logic is a little flawed. For the investment each year they also receive revenue, so it’s the delta between the two that is their true marketing spend on F1
So who are the Peugeots and the Mercedes-Benzs in this case? Are there manufacturers waiting in the wings once Red Bull have sucked it up and run year-old Ferrari units for 2016 and 2017?
RB ‘pulling out of F1’ at end of 2015
BE ‘selling F1’ by end of 2015’
No hidden agendas –
Just a vacuous strategy for keeping the sport constantly in the news.
Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda and Renault are all cowards if they don’t supply the RBR teams with engines.
In the end, the least coward brand will supply them engines because F1 can’t afford losing two teams and four drivers.
Cowards? I’m sorry but would Red Bull have supplied Ferrari or McLaren with their aero if they’d asked a few seasons back?
These teams throw a hell of a lot of money into their engine development to get an advantage. So why should they give it up when someone stamps their feet?
Red Bull should have stuck by Renault in the first place rather than chastising them constantly.
Red Bull & Horner screwed F1, the fans and FOTA years back for their own personal gain, and constantly politic to gain an advantage, so I don’t feel any sympathy for their current situations.
oh yes they can (afford to lose them) – plus Haas is in next year
Why supply teams that don’t give you any credit when they win, and crap all over you when you lose? – It’s not good for your brand (which is after all why the manufacturers are there).
For a top flight race team with some talented people in the fields of production and engineering, Red Bull seem to be frightfully naive about the amount of time it would take an engine supplier to increase their production by 20% or more. – After all the people who look after these things aren’t exactly ten a-penny.
Be fair to Red Bull.
Even when they were winning, they crapped all over Renault quite often.
Carping about winning in spite of the engine being down on power, and strangely neglecting to mention its superior driveability and (rather pertinently) exhaust-blowing characteristics.
It would be terrible if they aren’t on the grid next year.
Seeing them running a frozen spec 2015 Australian GP Honda engine, on the other hand would be rather amusing.
So, by that logic, obviously RBR are also cowards for not disclosing their aero data with any team who asks for it.
Erm. Renault had a contract that RB terminated. And Ferrari made an offer which RB have not taken up. Quite what magical pixies RB are expecting to have throw a winning engine in their direction I don’t know. It is jolly good fun though. And here’s another phrase to add to the RB pile: chickens coming home to roost.
Who will they blame when Newey steps back far enough that their chassis is no longer dominant regardless of power unit? Boo hoo Helmut.
Red Bull’s new technology partner … as they like to refer to sponsors as, Kleenex. That should fit their Hip and Rad image.
(For all the electronic journalists out there, I put it on the Internet so it is now certified fact that stories can be based around, rock solid )
I’m sure the irony isn’t lost on (for example) Sauber, who have been in F1 twice as long as Red Bull, are committed to stay by the simple fact that F1 is what they do, and get nothing.
Hi Joe. Any truth in Horner doing a Brawn and having Arden F1?
Then they could put a GP2 engine in there. I hear these are already in F1…
Hi Joe,
Any chance they will remain with Renault? There was no official statement that the contract was terminated and it looks like Ferrari is starting to lose patience with their crying as well?
Personally I think they are getting what they deserve as they have done nothing but complain and pulled their engine partner through the mud.
If RB do crawl back to Renault, I think that there would have to be some changes. Renault will want Horner’s and Marko’s heads on spikes outside the Enstone factory as a warning to others! Well more likely Bernie will find Horner a job as an intern office boy and Dr Marko can maybe get some locum work.
Not sure that I’d want to take any of “Dr” Marko’s medicine…
Why not take a lesson from NASCAR and start and park the cars?
You get your money and stiff the series that way. Cut your staff down to a skeleton crew and be out of the series in 5 years, flipping everyone off the entire time.
I’m not detecting a huge amount of sympathy for Red Bull in that post, Joe. I have to say I agree – they’ve made their bed, now they’ll have to pay $500m to not lay on it.
“but Red Bull seems to think that it should be treated differently to other teams’
Same attitude that lost Ricciardo The Aussie GP a couple of years ago. Seems they don’t learn from their mistakes.
Joe, some awesome turns of phrase here. You forgot one point that all RBR care about is that there name is in the media. They don’t really care if it is negative, so long as the media carry the name of the drink. Preferably in the headline. It is that publicity at all costs that has created the arrogance you so rightly identify. At this point they are a broken team and RB is a flawed branding concept living on borrowed time. They will disappear like many other drink brands in time.
$100 million is of course known as “a McLaren”
(While £1 million is known in British politics as “a Bernie” (after Blair’s deal with Bernie))
Brilliant!!
That may sound frivolous but i can corroborate that in the uk national health service finance departments a million was indeed called a bernie for several years.
I certainly don’t feel sorry for them. I can’t think of anyone else that does. The sport might even be better off without them, bearing in mind all this stomping around and throwing their toys out of the pram whenever they can’t get their way, and that’s not just now, it’s over the past 5 years as well. The only downside, as far as for the good of the sport is concerned, is if they did leave, who would replace them, or would anyone buy the team? That’s the only thing that bothers me. Apart from that, all I can say is – what goes around, comes around.
So will RBR make up with Renault or accept 2015 Ferrari engines next year through gritted teeth? Will Chritian Horner ‘do a Ross Brawn and lead a buyou
If we’ve learned one thing in recent times, Horner is no Ross Brawn.
And there is no Mercedes waiting in the wings to ultimately take over the team.
True, any deal for a German car company to take over (if one ever existed) may well have now gone up in smoke.
Spot on Joe,as usual,reminds me of the joke some Titanic suvivors are in the water drowning when a cargo ship appears on the scene and they say “no,we will wait for a better one”
So will RBR make up with Renault or accept 2015 Ferrari engines next year through gritted teeth? Will Chritian Horner ‘do a Ross Brawn and lead a buyout of the Milton Keynes team and rename it Arden F1 Team ? What are your thoughts Joe?
Excellent piece… You’ve got to admire Mr E for locking Red Bull in like that.
They will take the second string engines and I think it will be great fun to see Red Bull more than nibbling at Vettels backside in 2016!
Dont think there is any truth in it about the penalty if they just walk of for a sabbatical year 2016 plus the penalty need to go through court.
Do have it written in a contract is one thing to get the money is another
Why? They have received the prize money no problem…
Well if Bernie has them on a £500 million exit clause, surely it’s cheaper to buy Cosworth or someone and build their own engine for 2017 and just accept that they aren’t going to win in 2016 (which we were mostly sure about anyway).
Hello Joe
can it be a solution that renault would buy Redbull instead of lotus if redbull want to quit ?
They do not have the cash
They do have the cash if it’s a deal over time. It is a nice way out for both of them to save face to an extend and Renault would be stupid to pick Enstone over MK if the initial outlay is not much different for Renault. Red Bull can then pull out gradually and without penalties. Leaves Bernie sorting out a buyer for Enstone team and I’m tempted to start a crowdfunding initiative to make that happen, what was it, $60m is all ? 🙂
That’s for sure. (What terrible speaking habits one picks up from this sport.) Everything I’ve read – mostly from this blog – suggests that Renault are trying to do this on the cheap(ish). I get the impression that they can’t really afford it.
What about if Red Bull were offered to Renault for a token Euro, just take over the reigns and run the place.
Where does Lotus stand in all this? Perhaps Bernie see’s them as collateral damage!.( we all know what he thinks about the small teams!)
They don’t have the Mercedes engine anymore, as they have put all their eggs in one basket, hoping for the Renault buy-out which has gone very quiet.
Its even more concerning when their own CEO Mr Carter today admitted, he doesn’t even know why its taking so long.
Kinda feeling sorry for the guys at Enstone at the moment, I think they have been through a lot over the last few years with Genii. Quantum deals, not getting paid at times, and now the possible falling by the wayside of the supposed Renault buy-out,
What I don’t get is how Helmut Marko is allowed to behave in public by Dietrich Mateschitz. I thought there exists some kind of of Red Bull “knigge” how to dress and behave (dress sporty but with style, always be a gentleman, etc).
Formula 1 survived the loss of Toyota, BMW, Jordan, Arrows, Benetton, Ligier, Tyrrell, March, Brabham…). It is still F1, even if they decide to leave.
If the Red Bulls decide to leave, the track owners are in a better position negotiating the high fees Mr. E charges for the races?
What’s the contract rules with respect to a team being unable to enter the upcoming championship through all available engine suppliers refusing to supply them? We all know about the penalty clause should RB just walk away, but if they are prevented from competing due to third party withdrawal of support who pays up? and could they be forced to use the existing engines and try to keep them running in-house. A cynic may say that they have deliberately engineered this to get themselves kicked out without having to pay the penalty…
TBPH I wouldn’t be surprised if there will be some behind the scenes arm-twisting and probably some sweetening also from BE and FIA (possibly) to persuade someone to supply engines to RB, as although not ideal would be the least bad option for the sport.
Looks though like Ferrari may still supply to TR, as first they have not been quite so outspoken about the engine mess, and second are less of a threat to Ferrari team in terms of race results.
Anybody seen Mario Illien lately…?
I do wonder if one of two things are at play here: –
(1) How can a team be in F1 if they can’t get an engine?
If Red Bull wants to withdrawn from F1 without paying a £500 million exit fee, surely they would need to find a get-out clause. Could it be that with each engine supplier only allowed to supply 4 teams, there would always be an issue getting RB and TR engines? If they claim Renault is in breach of contract too somehow, (and Honda not having capacity to supply 3 teams) they would not be able to put a car on the grid without an engine…. so could withdraw from the sport that way.
(2) They genuinely thought they were getting VAG engines
If Red Bull genuinely thought they were on the verge of being brought by VAG or at least getting an engine supply deal for 2017, perhaps there had been a willingness to run year old Mercs or Ferrari’s (although VW do own Audi and Lamborghini so that might have been an interesting blocker) and a genuine reason why they couldn’t extend the Renault deal.
The emissions scandal broke and due to the financial impact on VAG, the deal has been put on ice, and Red Bull Audi and Torro Rosso Lamborghini will not come into existance
My personal thought is the later has happened. It is the only thing which makes much sense!
Joe, who do you think has left them in this position – Horner or Mateschitz himself. Who is the individual that made the decision to sign the £100m per year penalty clause and who decided to bin Renault? Is Horner’s coat on a shaky nail?
Do you think Red Bull thought they had a deal with Mercedes, or someone else and has now been left in the lurch? Seems a very bad management decision to dump Renault without some sort of agreement with A.N.Other.
Joe would you believe it; Red Bull are in talks with Renault over a 2016 engine supply according to Autosport who are using that crystal ball again.
I agree. Things have moved on and Renault is the only choice left.
The high point for me was “wedges of wonga”, though Dramarama was choice! (Never heard of them.) Nor wedges of wonga, but the meaning was clear.
Joe what’s the possibility that Red Bull will continue with Renault at this point ?
It now looks like being the only choice. Bizarre world, eh?
Are the engines leased or owned outright?
If owned surely it would be cheaper to take two of this year’s cars with a couple of mechanics to do a single qualifying lap (even if it meant not being quick enough to race) to all the races over the next five seasons? It must surely cost less than $100m a year to do that, especially when you see what Manor can do with similar money? Just paint the cars black, no logos and fulfil the contract.
Or is there a ‘not trying hard enough’ clause in the Concorde agreement?
Engines are leased
Well that is today’s fact leaned….and that ploy out the window.
“Are the engines leased or owned outright?”
Ten year old cars (real ones, not exhibition models) are sold without engine and significant other bits. They can run with a proprietary engine, but performance as the real thing requires factory support. Events like Goodwood will be different in future years. All the privately owned F1 cars will be 15 years old and getting older. If you are a favoured customer, Ferrari will “sell” you an old F1 car with usage restrictions…
—
Red Bull would have to build new cars every year in order to meet changing F1 regulations. Manor have an exemption to run modestly changed 2014 cars in 2015, but exemptions do not last for ever.
Red bull could pay Ilmor (who produce similar V6 chevrolet indy engine) or Porsche-Audi ( similar to Mcl aren Tag Porsche deal) to make them engine.
By February?
Ilmor produced Chevvy indy engine V8, but that the most direct descendent of that company is already building very successful F1 V6 engines for another team (or 4).
Actually, in the old days a petard was a special outfit like a leotard, with a lot of fancy buckles and loops on it, and rich people would wear it when they were feeling especially smug, but then poor people could tie a rope to one of the loops, and hoist them up a pole, and then let them dangle there as punishment for being cocky.
I don’t believe that is the real derivation.
Petard accidents are common in Malta in the Festas and the word is still in common use for describing home-made dangerous fireworks.
I think they just have to accept that fact that only works engine teams have won the championship since the end of the DFV, except for Brawn. It looks like their only option is to entice a new entrant which will take at least 3 years, or somehow if the Lotus takeover doesn’t happen then RB take over Renault’s engine operations and run it themselves and put in the necessary investment ??
So Mercedes say no. Ferrari now seem to have said the same, not even 2015 engines. Did I read somewhere that Honda couldn’t? Leaves Renault. What if they say “Never again”? Red Bull out. Do they still have to pay the half billion? According to Lee McKenzie, Ecclestone exited this mornings meeting with Horner and Marko with a smile and a thumbs up. She assumed they’d reached a solution. Could he have actually been saying “Yay! They’re gone.”?
Excellent article, Joe.
I’m a little shocked that RBR did not cave and accept the 2015 engines.
Are you able to confirm or negate the Dutch reports that Toro Rosso have contracted to take the 2015 spec PUs?
The junior team has not been anywhere near as toxic as Red Bull, so I would hope they at least, are safe.
I think STR will have Ferraris and RDR will have to do a deal for Renaults
Joe,
How will Ferrari stop Red Bull & STR swapping assets and resources, so that for as long as the customer Ferrari engine is the best either team has access to, ‘STR’ magically becomes the recipient of the holding company’s best efforts, Mr Newey’s time, and such like?
Cheers!
Many thanks for responding. 🙂
I can see redbull arguing a case in front of a court if all engine suppliers deny a supply. I do not think those 500 million reasons will stand if that is the situation.
So this might be a smart play by mateschitch if he wants to walk away from f1.
I think that argument would fail by the fact that RBR had (have?) a contract in place for Renault to supply the engines in 2016.
Renault did not deny them a supply.
Considering the $$ penalty for leaving, and now that the other available doors are closed, im talking about Ferrari and Mercedes, there is only option remaining for the give-wings team, Back into Renault feeds and begging for a forgiveness …
I have a Question for you Joe, if the brand Red Bull decided to pull out of F1 spectrum leaving the teams in hands of it principals, a Renault rebadged PU would be an option?
Just asking a crazy option that comes into this Crazy moments into F1
It looks like Renault is now the only choice. BE will sort it
A financial payoff for Renault?
A -big- financial payoff??
As Joe reported earlier, Renault is pushing Bernie to give them a deal as one of the “historical teams” with benefits like Mercedes or Williams have been enjoying Toleman fan. And Bernie in return needs to sort RBR an engine.
See, matter sorted, RBR can get an engine, and Renault in return can be rewarded a deal like that. Both matters settled and grid secured for BE.
Except that Renault are acting as if BE’s best & final offer isn’t worth getting out of bed for, and thank you and goodnight (unless you want to reconsider & come up with something much more attractive)…
I salute you, Mr. Saward. You are, by my experience, a member of a small, linguistically elite group comprised of those who word that “petard” adage correctly.
Although the numbers of the “linguistically elite” have not grown, those who are aware of the meaning of petard, now has.
I’d always assumed it was something to do with sailing ship rigging.
I’m not going to cheat by looking this matter up, and write from memory. It was my understanding that a petard was actually a stubby cannon which, during a siege, an attacker would hoist up with a pulley to a position with its mouth flush against the wall of a fortress, for breaching same. Seems that operating the device was ultra-hazardous duty, and that being anywhere near it when fired, never mind being hoist up with it accidentally or not, meant curtains for certains. A proverbial case of being the victim of one’s own devices.
No I believe it was a grenade
Good “news” for Renault. Now they can finance their Lotus take over/ establish Renault the Works F1 team – again, partly aided by Redbull.
Surely now, that RB has all by themselves, closed all possible exit ways, the engine supply for 2016 will be a bit dearer than previously.
Still – there has been a lot of RedBull hype in the World media last 6 Months – so the Marketing folks probably are all smiles…
For the amount of money RedBull currently spends on F1 they could have their own motor racing series. After all, they’re not in F1 for F1 glory per se, but to promote their brand, but with falling attendance’s and viewing figures the ROI must surely not be looking as good any more.
My money is on both RB teams turning up next year with cars that have not been developed over the winter. They’ll be painted black and completely unbranded. They’ll be attended to by a skeleton staff and do the absolute minimum running allowed to meet their contractual obligations – i.e. start and park.
This will further reduce the spectator / sponsor involvement in F1, further reducing the value of the business and acting as a deterrent for anyone else to become involved in the sport.
Meanwhile, the engineering division of RB will be hived off into a new company and will be tasked with developing a new car for use in a new ‘Red Bull motor racing world series…’. The venues will be selected such as city centre street circuits and a few ‘classic’ venues that are being priced out of F1 (Spa, Monza, Etc…) the field will be made up of upto 20 privateer teams of 2 cars, all with identical design to keep the costs down. The racing will be close and tight as the cars aero package and tyres will developed to allow close racing and pushing to the limit through the entire race. The races could be provided free to air and the tickets could be kept to a level accessible to an average family.
RedBull would be far better suited to running a motor racing series themselves, even if it operated at a loss of several hundred million dollars a year, and still get more brand recognition and a better ROI than they currently do.
Whilst we can be confident that BE has a strong contract preventing the RedBull F1 team from competing in another race series until at least 2020, the end of current agreement with the team, we can be equally confident that DM, a billionaire just as ruthless and as shrewd, will have ensured that he has some ‘wriggle’ room so as not to be held hostage by Bernie.
Whilst RedBull (the drinks company) may be contractually prevented from funding another racing team / series until 2020, I’d doubt very much if DM would sign a contract that would prevent him from personally funding a new team / series that could then be taken over by the company after the agreement with FOM expires.
It’s all unfounded speculation I know but I do think it’s a case of how much exposure RedBull get from motor racing in general and for how much they’re prepared to pay – and who is going to blink first BE or DM.
Mike
In Hungarian, the New Year’s Eve sort of fireworks that you ignite and goes *bang* is called “petárda”.
A lot of tricky thinking going on and with a lot of options that make the quit threat a strategic ploy. They can make up with Renault proper, or, sort of and take over a re-branded development of the engine with their own supply of tokens. Buy into the sport and gain the control they crave. Build their own engine. Formula 1 has been better for RedBull than the other way around.
Joe, if Red Bull do keep Renault engines for 2016. Do you think Renault will still buy Lotus?
I really hope Renault still completes its purchase of the Renault team. The only concern would be if Red bull beat them next year or 2. It could be a marketing diasaster for Renault being beaten by a drinks company.
I’ve been following F1 for 40+ years and this is the first time I can recall wanting a team to leave. IMHO, the sooner the better, RBR. Reap what you sow.
I wasn’t to keen on Andrea Moda either, but for different reasons…
Dear Joe, all
What have you got against colliery bands, Joe, that you would compare them to such as Red Bull??
Cheers
Mark R
Joe, would any of the Red Bull drivers be in a position to leave the team after 2016 if RBR has a disasterous season? [if it’s worse that this season, so far]
Let’s change the question. Has any Red Bull driver pursued a successful career in F1 after leaving RB? World Driver’s Championship winner excepted.
Many drivers have found happiness after leaving Red Bull but who has found a top F1 drive?
Well, if nothing else, we’ve all learned some important lessons here.
Like that Red Bull aren’t very popular in the pit lane.
Or with lots of fans either.
It’s always good to learn new things.
Joe I have 4 questions for you:
Do think after all that has been said do you think Renault would be prepared to give them (RBR) a 2016 spec engine given they could be buying Lotus and given the the previous fallout between the parties?
2 Might Renault’s board feel RBR only deserve a 2015 spec engine for their verbal outbursts against the French company?
3 Could STR continue racing ( possibly under a new name and ownership) even if RBR do not?
4 If STR as Autosport now suggests they will sign a contract to use year old Ferrari PUs next year would the team from Faenza be in danger of falling back to where it was at the end the Minardi days and becoming the whipping boys of the 2016 field bearing in mind most of the other teams including Haas and Manor will be using 2016 spec engines? Thus this would make Franz Tost’s potential decision to accept to 2015 spec engines look like a spectacular F1 own goal.
Yes. No. Yes.we will see
Not hearing a lot from Dr. Marko lately…
Nice, isn’t it?
Probably hard to talk with a foot in your mouth
I can’t see DM handing over $500m for nothing regardless of what he has signe, no business man would do that. Maybe BE will convert that F1 sponsorship instead. If anything it shows the stupidity of these long term contracts, no one know whats the future holds – the current VAG situation being an example and as an independent team the engine situation is another variable.
Time to dust off those old air-restricted V10s Toro Rosso used in ’06!
Sorry for the double-dip but a tweet I read spells out the situation perfectly. Why don’t Red Bull offer consultation with Newey as part-payment for 2016 engines? But that would destroy their competitive advanta….oh. Right. Get it now, Red Bull?
Joe, I have a new theory about the RBR situation:
I think Renault could supply Red Bull but only if Red Bull agree that Mr Horner has to step down as team principal and that Helmut Marko has no involvement in Red Bull Racing’s f1 program .
Renault I think could also replace their current F1 managing director Cyril Abiteboul in return.
I think this is key to helping RBR and Renault in re-building relationships otherwise I think it may be impossible to rebuild trust and. unity between the 2 organizations.
In short both parties will only accept each other if both parties make changes to their organizations . What do you think Joe?
NO way.Christian Horner just speaks for Milton Keynes employees and
Dr.Marko is just the VOICE of Mr. Mateschitz
SO clearly Renault doesn’t have any power to replace them
SO pretty clear to me that RedBull will be not on the grid next year and
only Torro Rosso to limit the damage